Why fists/claws

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Blackula__ - Archosaur
Blackula__ - Archosaur Posts: 56 Arc User
edited July 2010 in Archer
So this is something that has been rolling around in my head for weeks.....Ever since I was told to use fists on the Bishop boss. Why do archers even try to use a weapon that is effected by strength? I love the idea of changing up for something close but it seems impractical?
Post edited by Blackula__ - Archosaur on
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  • Ignathas - Sanctuary
    Ignathas - Sanctuary Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    it is, unless all ur gear is -int, that is -0,4 or -0,6int then it starts getting better. without -int gear claws/fists are total **** :) and i personally chose archer for the range and crits more, this claw thing should in general be fixed.. claw/fist archers only useful vs bosses, otherwise are useless
  • Astrohawke - Lost City
    Astrohawke - Lost City Posts: 199 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    Interval is OP. Using fists/claws is the archer's attempt at doing damage comparable to a BM or Sin but ultimately fails anyway. You do more damage even though the weapon is str based because you're attacking 5 times as fast but don't even bother with fists/claws unless you're 99+ with full interval equips.
  • Daggster - Lost City
    Daggster - Lost City Posts: 123 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    well there are enough archers with some nice amount of -int gears ... why shouldn't the use fists/claws to maximize their dps on bosses, if they can afford it?
    although archers are pretty good dds already but a 4aps fist/claw archer kills a lvl150 boss faster than a normal archer, this maxes the amount of hh- and nirvanaruns that can be done in a certain time = the rich ones will even get richer the poor will get poorer ... it's like rl lol

    ofc useing fists as an archer in pvp or on normal mobs would be pretty dumb ... but on lvl150 bosses its the best u can do unless u're going to out dps everyone else and die xD
  • Ignathas - Sanctuary
    Ignathas - Sanctuary Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    teoretically idk but practically i know archers that outdmg bms especially sins with fists/claws, just that bms do hf from what all benefit.. but dont wanna totally suk at tws and in all other aspects so prolly will stay bow and deal like 20-30% lower dmg having same gear, or will get better gear then claw guys and do more dmg b:victory
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    Your numbers are way off. A 5aps claw archer will deal about 5% less damage than a BM with same weapon due to having higher crit and blazing arrow. The vast majority of 5aps damage comes from the spark itself and not str. Restating out the dex for str will lower your bow damage by like 4%.

    Archers do it for the money. You need claws to get in those 7-minute nirvana squads, you need claws to solo 20m coin rings in city of of abominations, you need claws to get top score in the Nein event. TT bosses die faster, BH bosses die fast, you get more done than would be possible with a bow. Once you have money buy a better bow and end up doing more bow damage than you were before.
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  • Ignathas - Sanctuary
    Ignathas - Sanctuary Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    b:surrender
  • Badazmofo - Dreamweaver
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver Posts: 407 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    quick question atm im useing a + 3 vastland and i have dark flash (lvl 70 claw mold im upgradeing to FC gold or green as soon as i get some extra cash and a reset scroll or more + str gear) i also have the rank 4 chest and OHT bracers with -.05 (im finishing farming TT 90 gold bracers for the -.1 int on the bracers) is it better for me to use bow or claws? i know a lot depends on build but i mean generaly speaking i have 118 str (fully geared) which would do more dps? i have 10646-17274 @ .95 a/s with my bow and 4590-4516 @ 2.22 a/s with claws

    sry but i dont wanna mess up the dps formula since i dont know it very well and i didn take a high lvl math >_>
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  • VlLKASS - Sanctuary
    VlLKASS - Sanctuary Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    the rich ones will even get richer the poor will get poorer
    The poor get richer too. Since nirvana is 6 ppl to open, need to fill up squad anyway, not each of those ppl will be 5 dps bm/archer/barbs most of times. b:surrender I have to drag Iggy for the ride b:quiet
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  • Ignathas - Sanctuary
    Ignathas - Sanctuary Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    rofl b:laugh you drag me there cos you like me b:victory
    and badaz - stay bow, and how the hell ur attack 2x normal with vastland +3 b:shocked
  • Jeran - Harshlands
    Jeran - Harshlands Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    Oh my what a serious discussion you people are having b:thanks
    I've always thought archers uses them to prevent stealing aggo/gain chi - This prob apply to mid levels however
    But heeyy I've been a fist BM since day one and is capable of stealing aggo from barb my level everytime I use heaven flame and swiches back to my fist and start the crit chain - and my -interval is only 0.05 so really, fists really aren't useless as people think.
  • Brigid - Harshlands
    Brigid - Harshlands Posts: 1,332 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    Also, regarding the Bishop boss: They tell you to do that in part to keep you from standing too far from the boss. The Frost Bishops spawn next to a random player, so if you're standing back DDing with bow, the Bishop may spawn next to you rather than near the group.
  • Ignathas - Sanctuary
    Ignathas - Sanctuary Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    for me as archer it was always hard to control damage, not to take the agro.. b:bye
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    Here is the simple reality of a clawcher:

    Unless there is a BM with an equal number of APS and refines, *you* will be tanking. Do not count on a barb controlling aggro, because that isn't the way it works out.

    On average, a clawcher "breaks even" to regular bow attacks when hitting at 2~ish APS, not counting the additional chi you gain to spark. From there, each increase in APS works asymptotically with increasing returns for each additional piece of attack gear. The difference between 4 and 5 APS I believe is about 36% more damage (off the top of my head using a pretty easy build/simulation).

    There are demon archers who would suggest that "just using a BB" will provide you all the protection you need to tank anything with a cleric, however stacked IHs + sage reduction is by far better for PvE bosses. A properly equipped sage clawrcher can tank the toughest bosses in the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_LghNlSUcs

    From my figures, statting from Pure dex to Min-Str Clawrcher build, your bow will do 2-3% less damage-- a very small trade-off.
    When you're level 100 and people need tanks or DD, a 5APS Clawrcher/DD/Tank will always be a welcomed addition. That translates to more coin, easier quests, faster Nirvanas, and being an excellent PvE'r means you'll make all the coins necessary to add tons of refines so you're more than an exceptional PvP'r.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • VlLKASS - Sanctuary
    VlLKASS - Sanctuary Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    i have 10646-17274 @ .95 a/s

    4590-4516
    WTH :o how do you get atk like that with such a weap or the atk you wrote with flash.... b:shocked

    I only got 2.7-3.2 with +8 dragons b:shocked
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  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    From there, each increase in APS works exponentially with increasing returns for each additional piece of attack gear.

    Asymptotically, actually.
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Asymptotically, actually.

    You're right-- fixed b:victory
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Olba - Sanctuary
    Olba - Sanctuary Posts: 1,776 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »
    WTH :o how do you get atk like that with such a weap or the atk you wrote with flash.... b:shocked

    I only got 2.7-3.2 with +8 dragons b:shocked

    Those numbers are under Demon Spark. It's quite obvious, as he said that he has 2.22 atk/s but only -0.1 interval. The only way for that to happen is indeed Demon Spark.

    And besides, getting 10-17k damage on a Vast Land isn't exactly possible.
    If you disregard what I say because of who I am or because of the contents of what I said, you are a fool.

    Everyone wants to be different, but when you're different you wish you were normal.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    Dont bother with claws until you can do 4a/s.

    While sage spark bonus is nice it certainly is not required to be a tanker. Really the PVE of the game is not that challenging unless you are looking at Harpy Wraith and maybe a couple of other WBs. The things you are likely to be clawing at end game are Nirvana bosses, 3-3/3-2 bosses, FB99 bosses for BH, Nein event, and City of Abomination mobs. You only need so much survivability for those. Ive seen a demon sin with 7k buffed pdef and 9k buffed HP tank all of 3-3. Maybe you need sage spark if you plan on completely soloing like cheezedude but you'd also need his +10 ornaments and armors.

    After you have enough survivability in spark you are only concerned about damage and sage and demon paths don't differ with respect to that (expect for 10% more blazing for sage).
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  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    Just don't be like some archers and use unrefined level 60 mold fists instead of your TT90 bow without even having any -interval gear.

    All these people running around with 5.0 seems to make some archers think they can just throw on a pair of fists and they'll have epic DD.
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  • VlLKASS - Sanctuary
    VlLKASS - Sanctuary Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Just don't be like some archers and use unrefined level 60 mold fists instead of your TT90 bow without even having any -interval gear.

    All these people running around with 5.0 seems to make some archers think they can just throw on a pair of fists and they'll have epic DD.
    Same applies to a lot of bms I keep seeing lately...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • fulgida
    fulgida Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Just don't be like some archers and use unrefined level 60 mold fists instead of your TT90 bow without even having any -interval gear.

    I believe people use dark flash for reasons other than dps.
  • Museishi - Heavens Tear
    Museishi - Heavens Tear Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »
    Using fists/claws is the archer's attempt at doing damage comparable to a BM or Sin but ultimately fails anyway.

    This is not completely true. Archers use fists/claws, coupled with -interval gear, to achieve a state where they deal more damage than they would with a bow. They are not trying to out-damage BMs or Sins.

    It also opens up new options for the Archer, many of which have already been mentioned. (TT, BH, Nirvana, CoA etc.) Plus, we Archers have that extra bit of -int from rank gear, why not utilize it?
  • Teppeii - Dreamweaver
    Teppeii - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,206 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    Museishi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Plus, we Archers have that extra bit of -int from rank gear, why not utilize it?

    Because in my experience, that rank armor is more PvP oriented considering the lvl you're at when you can finally use it. Faster hits for pk is great, but considering the amount of defense you're trading off, all you're gonna get in PvE is more aggro stealing and quicker squishy death.b:surrender
    On indefinite hiatus :3
  • Museishi - Heavens Tear
    Museishi - Heavens Tear Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    Teppeii - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Because in my experience, that rank armor is more PvP oriented considering the lvl you're at when you can finally use it. Faster hits for pk is great, but considering the amount of defense you're trading off, all you're gonna get in PvE is more aggro stealing and quicker squishy death.b:surrender

    Now, I didn't specify what type of rank armor. Rank VI is not far behind TT99/Nirvana in terms of resistances. Rank VIII is better than TT99 at least in that respect also. It's only really Rank IV that loses out here. And when you think about it, it's not by much if you have decent ornaments and refines.

    However Rank VIII is pretty much out of the question due to its cost, since most Archers will not reach the 200k rep needed to obtain it. However, when comparing the TT99 top with the Rank IV top, with similar shards and refines, the resistance difference is only quite small. 2% less reduction on pdef, 4% reduction on mdef, unbuffed.

    Rank IV:
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=72f959a7c2c46b9c

    TT99:
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=ef59f1fd4988c224


    And now, with Rank VI, the difference is smaller, with only a 1% difference in resistances when compared to a similarly sharded and refined TT99 top.

    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=ec5b63b95792158c



    Not to mention that the Rank IV top is available at 60 and Rank VI is available at 90. It's also a cheaper option for those who cannot afford that extra -0.05 from Nirvana legs or Love: Up and Down/Pan Gu: Creator tome or, inevitably, Rank VIII.

    My point in the end is yes, you are squishier, but not by much. Getting hit for 1% extra damage is not gonna drop you instantly, if you're taking too much damage, use Apoth, Winged Shell, WoG, event pot, whatever. Anything that will let your charm/heal catch up. Alternatively, you could switch out your top to something stronger and go for 4 APS under Demon spark. As you can see, there are a lot of possibilities, but I thank you for your input.
  • Ignathas - Sanctuary
    Ignathas - Sanctuary Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    damn that archer tanking harpy wraith is insane... >.> wannabe
  • Badazmofo - Dreamweaver
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver Posts: 407 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    Ignathas - Sanctuary wrote: »
    rofl b:laugh you drag me there cos you like me b:victory
    and badaz - stay bow, and how the hell ur attack 2x normal with vastland +3 b:shocked

    oht -.05 int wrists and rank 4 chest -.05 int got the stats by demon sparking and SSing my toons stat screen
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  • Esuna - Raging Tide
    Esuna - Raging Tide Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    fulgida wrote: »
    I believe people use dark flash for reasons other than dps.

    Why would that be? The proc sucks
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  • fulgida
    fulgida Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    Esuna - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Why would that be? The proc sucks

    The proc can be handy, for example when fighting the end boss in FCC or when poisoned with no cleric handy, and so on.
  • Aquilez - Sanctuary
    Aquilez - Sanctuary Posts: 240 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    Teppeii - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Because in my experience, that rank armor is more PvP oriented considering the lvl you're at when you can finally use it. Faster hits for pk is great, but considering the amount of defense you're trading off, all you're gonna get in PvE is more aggro stealing and quicker squishy death.b:surrender


    not truth, i have less hp and defense with my rank 4 than my tt90 armor, but thanks to that extra 0,05 interval i can spark more using fists wich means i'm doing more dmg and can heal some hp from spark

    and from my own experience, using rank 4 armor i got 7,1k hp not buffed and still i can tank any nirvana boss and most of TT bosses without charm **** (use around 20k charm in 1 nirvana run)

    i'm demon btw
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited July 2010
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    VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Same applies to a lot of bms I keep seeing lately...

    A bm with npc fists and no interval DD's better than using axe/spear/blade/bow.

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