It's Cloud Eruption time again...

Joshcja - Sanctuary · June 2010

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Green mat price is nonfactor. The only reason you would ever run an HH is for the gold mats.. when I've needed any green mats for whatever, guildies that run HH alot give them for free if they haven't already npc'd them. Green mats are dirt cheap and are negligible to the price of an end game character.

Def/Vit stones are nice, especially for pvp.. but flawless citrines work just fine. Same with +5 refines.. +8/+10 are great, but definitely not necessary for pve. Other weapons are also useful, although you don't need top of the line of everything. Calamities are cheap and just fine for axes, no BM is going to be DD'ing with axes anyways.. that's what the fists are for. Other weapons are basically the same, you don't need top of the line weapons.. finding decent cheap weapons to allow you to use your skills are all you really need.

You can always put more money in this game on a character, but you don't need to spend 1.7 billion coins for a good fist BM. I think everyone has already agreed that -interval is amazing, most say its unbalanced.. though your thought that it costs more than anything else so it is fair is just dumb. Rank 8 costs more, and doesn't guarantee anything. 5 aps will take just about anything down, and even rank8 +12 weps don't one shot a good BM. I remember seeing NyKage (amazing gears 5aps BM +10 HH100) 1v1 Ehee (amazing gears +12 rank8 mage) and when Ehee used an anti-stun pot and demon sparked.. NyKage tanked the spark and ended up winning. Just goes to say that getting rank8 does not "balance" the classes.

and for +5 and flawless/immac you get a decent endgame tank

but not a OP farming machine that will constantly solo 3-3 or tank your damage and instakill you in pvp

thus my point

also full int (5 aps sparked) and a rank 8 are comperable in cost assuming rank 6 base

Adroit - Lost City · June 2010

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

and for +5 and flawless/immac you get a decent endgame tank

but not a OP farming machine that will constantly solo 3-3 or tank your damage and instakill you in pvp

thus my point

also full int (5 aps sparked) and a rank 8 are comperable in cost assuming rank 6 base

You could easily be an OP farming machine with +5 refines and g7/g8 shards. I honestly don't believe you ever need a refine above +5 for anything pve related. As for PvP, even +5 refines can tank fairly well against a rank8 mage. Where a BM has high hp and high defenses, they can also save themselves with genie skills like domain/TE/etc and apoth pots like dew of star etc and magic defense charms. The mage on the other hand has skills like domain, expel, fortify (only used on themselves now), and the apoth pots can only really be used for anti stun or immune.. dew of star won't save you against a fist bm with 5aps. So in a 1v1, assuming both are equally geared/skilled, it would come down to the BM running out of defensive skills (ya right) vs the mage running out of anti stuns/immunes (basically after the genie runs low on energy and the one apoth pot has been used), because all the BM needs is one stun to finish off the mage. The only real chance I have at killing a good BM is if they mess up or if I seriously out gear them (which is rare).

Joshcja - Sanctuary · June 2010

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

You could easily be an OP farming machine with +5 refines and g7/g8 shards. I honestly don't believe you ever need a refine above +5 for anything pve related. As for PvP, even +5 refines can tank fairly well against a rank8 mage. Where a BM has high hp and high defenses, they can also save themselves with genie skills like domain/TE/etc and apoth pots like dew of star etc and magic defense charms. The mage on the other hand has skills like domain, expel, fortify (only used on themselves now), and the apoth pots can only really be used for anti stun or immune.. dew of star won't save you against a fist bm with 5aps. So in a 1v1, assuming both are equally geared/skilled, it would come down to the BM running out of defensive skills (ya right) vs the mage running out of anti stuns/immunes (basically after the genie runs low on energy and the one apoth pot has been used), because all the BM needs is one stun to finish off the mage. The only real chance I have at killing a good BM is if they mess up or if I seriously out gear them (which is rare).

powerfull vs overpowerfull

one goes in and solos the instance self buffed with charm and 3 sparked heals and can kill though faster than most squads (takes a ton of $)

the other needs heals and can benifit from other DD's in the squad (+5 refines and mid grade shards)

in pvp if the bm is useing defensive skills and such to stay alive and the fight comes down to who runs out 1st...sounds like a decent macthup no?

OP is sins before the stealth nerf

really the only "spamable" defensive geni skill we have is TE so just to stay alive vs a decent refined wizzie the geni stays at 0 stam and sadly cant be used while the target is disabled

just drawing that distictionb:surrender

Adroit - Lost City · June 2010

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

powerfull vs overpowerfull

one goes in and solos the instance self buffed with charm and 3 sparked heals and can kill though faster than most squads (takes a ton of $)

the other needs heals and can benifit from other DD's in the squad (+5 refines and mid grade shards)

in pvp if the bm is useing defensive skills and such to stay alive and the fight comes down to who runs out 1st...sounds like a decent macthup no?

OP is sins before the stealth nerf

really the only "spamable" defensive geni skill we have is TE so just to stay alive vs a decent refined wizzie the geni stays at 0 stam and sadly cant be used while the target is disabled

just drawing that distictionb:surrender

A 5aps fist BM with decent gear (+5 lets say) likely would not need any heals and would still own instances ridiculously fast.

The thing is, magic defense charms will basically protect a BM indefinitely, and I mentioned genie/apoth pots which cancel out anything a wizard might have. It would be a decent matchup if the bm ever ran out first, which only happens if they are dumb and waste all of their defensive skills. I'm not saying it is impossible for a wizard to win.. but you gotta be creative and rely on alot of luck. One trick I use is get them to just over 50% and use a no channel pot -> BIDS.. its very rare anybody can react in time for that.. though a really good BM I often need a crit just to bypass their charm.. which adds in the luck, and that all assumes the BM hasn't already forced me to use an apoth pot within the past 2 mins.

fulgida · June 2010

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

The only real chance I have at killing a good BM is if they mess up or if I seriously out gear them (which is rare).

In my limited experience, when their will wears off, you can control them, and until then you should stay out of their range, and poke them to see if you can get them to react defensively. But sage wizards do not have enough control options, in my opinion and blademasters are hard to control.

Shadowvzs - Lost City · June 2010

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

thats 4 aps with no refines roughly 3.5k hp and no other weapons but fists (realistic cost of 5 aps on sanc atm is about 600 mill atm if you dont decide to gimp your def with LA orns you left out green mat price)

no im shure that can tank with only bloodpaint (BP only heals DPS a high spike will still kill all but the best geared bm's and without cleric/barb buffs it gets even worse)

was replying to 5 aps and able to solo 3-3 would take def/vit stones in 3-4 socket armor high refines higher grade chest/legs for the def stones (nirvana) skill costs both lvl 10 sage and demon (was +10-+8 btw) add on rings hat andthe fact that the bm will want more than 1 weapon at 100+ and refines on those

total cost of making a bm with all that is about 1.7 bill with going prices

so sorry did overprice it just a bit

on a parting note 4 aps is only perma spark on paper since server lag and human reaction time take off about 1-2 seconds of spark each cycle

if u refine r8 to +12 that not cheap too and still u cant grind out any instance +still u ahve low hp, low pdef etc for stay alive against a lunar bow+10 archer, if u do refine on armor/ornament or getting good eq its again costly but still u can use only in pk/tw :P

(about 1 bm, i do 3x less damage on bm who use mdef sutra without cleric buff, with cleric buff+sutra too its kinda hard to 1 hit any bm who got 10k+ hp and for 10k hp dont need +9-10 refine )

Joshcja - Sanctuary · June 2010

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

A 5aps fist BM with decent gear (+5 lets say) likely would not need any heals and would still own instances ridiculously fast.

The thing is, magic defense charms will basically protect a BM indefinitely, and I mentioned genie/apoth pots which cancel out anything a wizard might have. It would be a decent matchup if the bm ever ran out first, which only happens if they are dumb and waste all of their defensive skills. I'm not saying it is impossible for a wizard to win.. but you gotta be creative and rely on alot of luck. One trick I use is get them to just over 50% and use a no channel pot -> BIDS.. its very rare anybody can react in time for that.. though a really good BM I often need a crit just to bypass their charm.. which adds in the luck, and that all assumes the BM hasn't already forced me to use an apoth pot within the past 2 mins.

phys def charms they work for you to...only issue would be the rate 5 aps would burn em off ya

and i know a few 5 aps/4 aps bm's at average refine of 5-6 trust me they cannot go soloing higher instances even with full buffs n BP untill very high refine and shard setups the bm will still need heals at the least

Shadowvzs - Lost City · June 2010

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

phys def charms they work for you to...only issue would be the rate 5 aps would burn em off ya

and i know a few 5 aps/4 aps bm's at average refine of 5-6 trust me they cannot go soloing higher instances even with full buffs n BP untill very high refine and shard setups the bm will still need heals at the least

i see 3,33 speed bm/barb (with spark burst) who get 15-20mil in tuesday event (i think here too have netherbeast event) till i get 1-2m,max 3 if my room win profit with my archer with tt99 xbow and all of them +5-6 refine but they can solo there the boss :P

Borsuc - Raging Tide · June 2010

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

phys def charms they work for you to...only issue would be the rate 5 aps would burn em off ya

Only issue?

No you see, the only way to avoid getting killed in 2 secs is to be immune to damage... defense charms won't save your ****. Because the damage from a 5aps fist user is like so high nothing can save you against it, except immune to damage (which, frankly, avoids even a GM weapon).

So what you're saying is, that no matter how high a fist BM's DPS is, it's balanced because there are immune stuff available? So a GM BM with 999999999 damage on their weapon is balanced because you have immune skills/pots to use?

Adroit - Lost City · June 2010

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

phys def charms they work for you to...only issue would be the rate 5 aps would burn em off ya

and i know a few 5 aps/4 aps bm's at average refine of 5-6 trust me they cannot go soloing higher instances even with full buffs n BP untill very high refine and shard setups the bm will still need heals at the least

Physical charms can't save you against a fist bm. First of all, even if a BM hit at half damage, they'd still destroy me (i.e. they can kill me when I'm dropping from the air when I'm occulted or something). Not only that, but you can't just turn them on and off like attack charms, you hit a charm and it will protect you until the next hit, then you need to hit another to protect you from the next hit etc (and there is a short cooldown), so they are useful against slow hard hitting skills (like that of a mage).. but useless against quick weaker hits. Also, you can't use physical charms when you are stunned. So although magic charms are useful against magic, it just isn't effective vs fist BMs.

Those fist BM's you know were not very good at building their chars apparently.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · June 2010

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Physical charms can't save you against a fist bm. First of all, even if a BM hit at half damage, they'd still destroy me (i.e. they can kill me when I'm dropping from the air when I'm occulted or something). Not only that, but you can't just turn them on and off like attack charms, you hit a charm and it will protect you until the next hit, then you need to hit another to protect you from the next hit etc (and there is a short cooldown), so they are useful against slow hard hitting skills (like that of a mage).. but useless against quick weaker hits. Also, you can't use physical charms when you are stunned. So although magic charms are useful against magic, it just isn't effective vs fist BMs.

Those fist BM's you know were not very good at building their chars apparently.

you can drag and drop stacks of 100 or more....

and no...the fourums have just really inflated and exagerated what bm's can do on what budget

Adroit - Lost City · June 2010

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

you can drag and drop stacks of 100 or more....

and no...the fourums have just really inflated and exagerated what bm's can do on what budget

ok don't talk if you dont know what you are talking about. For defense charms, you need to manually use one every time you get hit.

Haiz - Lost City · June 2010

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

you can drag and drop stacks of 100 or more....

and no...the fourums have just really inflated and exagerated what bm's can do on what budget

Why is this guy still talking in this topic? He's only 8x so he has no personal experience at all with high level fist BMs. He's talking to experienced wizards who actually go up against fist BMs all the time. Why is he arguing against us again? Have you ever even used a defense charm before?

fulgida · June 2010

Haiz - Lost City wrote: »

Why is this guy still talking in this topic? He's only 8x so he has no personal experience at all with high level fist BMs. He's talking to experienced wizards who actually go up against fist BMs all the time. Why is he arguing against us again? Have you ever even used a defense charm before?

Maybe he meant you can drag them from your inventory into your safe?

Fist blademasters usually can not kill me when I am dragging defense charms from my inventory into my safe.

So ... um... by forum logic this means fist blademasters are useless?

kenlee · June 2010

he is clearly afk in the head. anyway, even clicking them one by one there is still like a second cooldown to use the next one

and you dont have to spend billions to solo instance as bm, getting a cleric friend is much cheaper

Joshcja - Sanctuary · June 2010

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

ok don't talk if you dont know what you are talking about. For defense charms, you need to manually use one every time you get hit.

open mouth insert foot on this one b:surrender

the actuall logic im going off of here

unsparked at 3.33 APS a lvl 100 bm with a 3:2 build would deal roughly 13.1k DPS raw damage

give the wizzie 7k self buffed phys def and 5kish hp

68% phys reduction after 75% pve reduction 1.05k dps

assuming your at 51% hp and the bm gets in the full 8 seconds thats 8.4k of damage

roar has aftercast time+server lag so only about 5.5-5 seconds of actual punching will hurt but survivable

hit ToP right before charm tick and thats about ...10.4k hp the bm needs to burn in order to kill you a 30-40% wind sheild or event pot as you drop would have the same effect

vs a class that with the above amount of $ can charm bypass the bm with a nuke on a crit so 18-37%(30%/2=15%added on) chance depending on if you have sage bids (going with +5 and flawless so about 6.8-7k hp depending on build) bm cant throw on a def charm while sealed or slept nor can they use TE if the have spamed TE no real way to get out with geni skills since the bugs at near 0 stam

so in the above fight all comes down to geni skills and non class heals + apoth pots

on that note 50% redux+75% redux on a tt boss vs 46k raw dps = roughly 5.75k actual DPS 2% of that = 115ish healing per second on a ? boss with blood paint alone

so in a 15 second span at 5 aps 20% of 7k(1400)+115x15(1725)=3125hp healed

add on a charm for 6999 hp every 10 seconds=13623 hp healed evey 15 seconds add on another 3.5k from event food if ya wanna go crazy

really really nice however that wolnt even come close soloing 3-3 and assuming the bosses in 3-2 dont ever hit for more than 51% of the bm's hp (the later bosses can if im reading the base damage and spells right) its still really really iffy multiple high end hits n the bm poofs

and on 5 mill hp bosses solo would take long enough to burn quite a few hp charms so even then not really profitable without a squad

Adroit - Lost City · June 2010

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

open mouth insert foot on this one b:surrender

the actuall logic im going off of here

unsparked at 3.33 APS a lvl 100 bm with a 3:2 build would deal roughly 13.1k DPS raw damage

give the wizzie 7k self buffed phys def and 5kish hp

68% phys reduction after 75% pve reduction 1.05k dps

assuming your at 51% hp and the bm gets in the full 8 seconds thats 8.4k of damage

roar has aftercast time+server lag so only about 5.5-5 seconds of actual punching will hurt but survivable

hit ToP right before charm tick and thats about ...10.4k hp the bm needs to burn in order to kill you a 30-40% wind sheild or event pot as you drop would have the same effect

vs a class that with the above amount of $ can charm bypass the bm with a nuke on a crit so 18-37%(30%/2=15%added on) chance depending on if you have sage bids (going with +5 and flawless so about 6.8-7k hp depending on build) bm cant throw on a def charm while sealed or slept nor can they use TE if the have spamed TE no real way to get out with geni skills since the bugs at near 0 stam

so in the above fight all comes down to geni skills and non class heals + apoth pots

on that note 50% redux+75% redux on a tt boss vs 46k raw dps = roughly 5.75k actual DPS 2% of that = 115ish healing per second on a ? boss with blood paint alone

so in a 15 second span at 5 aps 20% of 7k(1400)+115x15(1725)=3125hp healed

add on a charm for 6999 hp every 10 seconds=13623 hp healed evey 15 seconds add on another 3.5k from event food if ya wanna go crazy

really really nice however that wolnt even come close soloing 3-3 and assuming the bosses in 3-2 dont ever hit for more than 51% of the bm's hp (the later bosses can if im reading the base damage and spells right) its still really really iffy multiple high end hits n the bm poofs

and on 5 mill hp bosses solo would take long enough to burn quite a few hp charms so even then not really profitable without a squad

imo you should go solve social security/medicare on paper too. While you're at it, go fix the BP oil spill in the gulf.. figure out cold fusion and end world hunger.

Sorry to break it to you, but your numbers just don't have any validity whatsoever. Your calculations are so oversimplified they mean nothing. I have a little over 5k hp unbuffed, 6.5k pdef self buffed (which is kinda interesting being that you used very similar numbers), yet I get destroyed in the time of one occult. My experience just doesn't match up with your numbers.

Shadowvzs - Lost City · June 2010

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

open mouth insert foot on this one b:surrender

the actuall logic im going off of here

unsparked at 3.33 APS a lvl 100 bm with a 3:2 build would deal roughly 13.1k DPS raw damage

give the wizzie 7k self buffed phys def and 5kish hp

68% phys reduction after 75% pve reduction 1.05k dps

assuming your at 51% hp and the bm gets in the full 8 seconds thats 8.4k of damage

roar has aftercast time+server lag so only about 5.5-5 seconds of actual punching will hurt but survivable

just numbers but i never watched any bm who dont used genie skill on target (have alot variation how to increase ur dmg or stunlock ur target) and dont forget the lv49 fist skill what increase ur attack speed (demon version example give a nice speed bonus), u calculated with crit too? example when u have 2k hp a single 2,1k crit can be ko. crit nice too since fast speed=> more crit occured.

about 3-2. there example alot boss tankable with 10k hp archer too... for bm a +7 refine set enough for 10k hp and got more skill with fist (interupt,speed) if need few chi till next spark :P

Joshcja - Sanctuary · June 2010

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

imo you should go solve social security/medicare on paper too. While you're at it, go fix the BP oil spill in the gulf.. figure out cold fusion and end world hunger.

Sorry to break it to you, but your numbers just don't have any validity whatsoever. Your calculations are so oversimplified they mean nothing. I have a little over 5k hp unbuffed, 6.5k pdef self buffed (which is kinda interesting being that you used very similar numbers), yet I get destroyed in the time of one occult. My experience just doesn't match up with your numbers.

because you have far less invested in your toon than a 5 aps bm with +5 refines lunar rings and decent m def orns

the wizzie im running this off of has similar refines slightly better sharding and a rank 8(can afford slighly higher refines/shards if i use eleit leather cape and rank 8 ring)

oh and +30 attack lvl bless throws everything out of wack atm basicly its who ganks who at this point

Shadowvzs - Lost City · June 2010

for survive the hits need more refine than +5 :P
whatever u kill somebody but its not comparable with solo boss killling with archer/bm/barb/sin etc in final profit view. (in haiz video u can watch too he got alot times 2,5k+-3k+ dmgs)

Borsuc - Raging Tide · June 2010

Where did you get the 13.1k Raw DPS damage? From mobs? You do know mobs have resistances as well?

I also think you probably forgot the masteries if you based this off base physical attack.

Plus you didn't even mention skills, just auto-attack raw damage. Throw in HF (if you Occult Ice instead of stun) or w/e. Cause you know, wizzies have to use skills, they don't expect auto-attack (or let's say, spamming Gush) to do the job.

Adroit - Lost City · June 2010

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

because you have far less invested in your toon than a 5 aps bm with +5 refines lunar rings and decent m def orns

the wizzie im running this off of has similar refines slightly better sharding and a rank 8(can afford slighly higher refines/shards if i use eleit leather cape and rank 8 ring)

oh and +30 attack lvl bless throws everything out of wack atm basicly its who ganks who at this point

I actually have quite a lot invested, but judging by the time it takes for me to die.. even if I added another few thousand hp I'd still be dead before the end of an occult. You still don't get the point though, 5aps kills anything and everything.. besides immune or anti stun there is no way to protect yourself. BM's can tank several hits from a mage, and it is not always about who ganks who.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · June 2010

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Where did you get the 13.1k Raw DPS damage? From mobs? You do know mobs have resistances as well?

I also think you probably forgot the masteries if you based this off base physical attack.

Plus you didn't even mention skills, just auto-attack raw damage. Throw in HF (if you Occult Ice instead of stun) or w/e. Cause you know, wizzies have to use skills, they don't expect auto-attack (or let's say, spamming Gush) to do the job.[/QUOTE

dps = base phys damagex attack ratex crit for autoattack... rate this is runnign off a 307 base str bm with an 18% crit rate 2 lunar rings and +5 lunar claws

thats raw damage of the theoretical bm before its run through resists

hf = 2 seconds of cast 1 sec of aftercast so 5 seconds of attacking rather than 8 so its the spike of HF+5 seconds worth of damagex2 so run it for 10 seconds instead

@ Androit again i cant speak for the bm's you personaly fight but then thats an unknown variable so runnign this with both participants on even grounds really if either of you gets off a 3 spark while the other is under a control skill the oponent is dead sounds like your issue with bm's isnt the damage but rather the control skills of the class

also antistuns/imunes take quite a bit more geni energy than skills that simply reduce damage or raise hp to survivable levels though that does risk farstrike

and you have less phys def but the same hp as the wizzie and no rank 8 so even on our little bm you really have invested less in your toon and the bm's who actually pvp against you will probly have invested even more

+ your sage the culti suited for mass nukeing in tw for your classs (oh bm's cant do that btw) while the bm's you fight will likely be demon the culti for our class made for 1 vs 1 pvp

our little bm here has 6.8k hp im pretty shure you can work around that on a gank though

Adroit - Lost City · June 2010

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

@ Androit again i cant speak for the bm's you personaly fight but then thats an unknown variable so runnign this with both participants on even grounds really if either of you gets off a 3 spark while the other is under a control skill the oponent is dead sounds like your issue with bm's isnt the damage but rather the control skills of the class

I have a problem with the damage of a fist BM, the problem is that they have the highest dps in the game.. and that coupled with amazing control skills (lots of stuns + occult = bad news for a wizard). Then you constantly say that you can one shot them back.. which is very difficult being that they have tons of defensive skills to prevent you from doing that (while wizards can only really use immune skills).

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

also antistuns/imunes take quite a bit more geni energy than skills that simply reduce damage or raise hp to survivable levels though that does risk farstrike

I'm missing any point you are trying to make.. but just FYI fortify takes 55 energy while ToP takes 115.. I don't know where you got that antistuns take alot of energy.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

and you have less phys def but the same hp as the wizzie and no rank 8 so even on our little bm you really have invested less in your toon and the bm's who actually pvp against you will probly have invested even more

+ your sage the culti suited for mass nukeing in tw for your classs (oh bm's cant do that btw) while the bm's you fight will likely be demon the culti for our class made for 1 vs 1 pvp

our little bm here has 6.8k hp im pretty shure you can work around that on a gank though

You have no idea what my gear is like or what I have invested in my "toon". My skills alone have easily cost me over 200mil coins (and fist BM's are not very skill based.. the only really necessary skills are maybe sprints/buffs/a couple stuns/a couple other misc ones.. they don't use skills for dps). I also use a +10 HH 99 wep (at least another 100mil+) and a lunar ring (another 60mil) and lots of other misc gear. I doubt I've spent exactly the same amount as the BM (maybe a little more or less) but it's in the same ballpark where it shouldn't be that one sided.

You have absolutely no clue about wizard cultivations, don't even bring that up. Sage wizards are just as good as demon wizards for 1v1, it just depends on how you play.

Shadowvzs - Lost City · June 2010

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Where did you get the 13.1k Raw DPS damage? From mobs? You do know mobs have resistances as well?

I also think you probably forgot the masteries if you based this off base physical attack.

Plus you didn't even mention skills, just auto-attack raw damage. Throw in HF (if you Occult Ice instead of stun) or w/e. Cause you know, wizzies have to use skills, they don't expect auto-attack (or let's say, spamming Gush) to do the job.[/QUOTE

dps = base phys damagex attack ratex crit for autoattack... rate this is runnign off a 307 base str bm with an 18% crit rate 2 lunar rings and +5 lunar claws

thats raw damage of the theoretical bm before its run through resists

hf = 2 seconds of cast 1 sec of aftercast so 5 seconds of attacking rather than 8 so its the spike of HF+5 seconds worth of damagex2 so run it for 10 seconds instead

@ Androit again i cant speak for the bm's you personaly fight but then thats an unknown variable so runnign this with both participants on even grounds really if either of you gets off a 3 spark while the other is under a control skill the oponent is dead sounds like your issue with bm's isnt the damage but rather the control skills of the class

also antistuns/imunes take quite a bit more geni energy than skills that simply reduce damage or raise hp to survivable levels though that does risk farstrike

and you have less phys def but the same hp as the wizzie and no rank 8 so even on our little bm you really have invested less in your toon and the bm's who actually pvp against you will probly have invested even more

+ your sage the culti suited for mass nukeing in tw for your classs (oh bm's cant do that btw) while the bm's you fight will likely be demon the culti for our class made for 1 vs 1 pvp

our little bm here has 6.8k hp im pretty shure you can work around that on a gank though

stun+hf+occult ice- not a big deal
another side u talk about 2sec bit wizz cant kill with fastest skill a bm XD

about tw- hf+gs+mud is really really hurt and its aoe and this bm used zerk weapon then is the biggest sucks [zerk+crit alone is insane dmg too but with hf really could be somebody 1hit]. zerk weapons in pvp do maybe more dmg than rank8 (acctually when somebody get the r9 ring then can replace the interval fist to zerk fist)

but whatever why u need r8 if u do similiar dmg in time? since for any stronger skill what u can feel with sutra need few second and until that u hit a 20x on wizz.

bm is about cooperation in tw, they going with archers/wizz with vent/ts -> do stun+hf and archer do barrage or something/or if wizz then a ulti and this do the highest aoe dmg in tw.

(i watched a +5refined lv99 demon wizz with demon barrier selfbuffed how die in few sec against 2,5hit/sec bm[ofc with skill 3,33]), and bm dont used +12 hh100, just around +7 but still wizz hit low on him cause sutra and hi dont got better refined gear than +5[ofc have alot nub bm too who cant handle].

1 thing. in gank everybody can die XD about hp, compare a +8-9 robe armor with heavy. how much hp profit? and same time bm got more mdef than wizz XD

i cant belive a endgame bm cant refine his armor to +7, if he refine then got 10k+ mbuffed hp with interval gear :P

(slaughter got right in that point if ur weapon higher refine>mag points in dmg view, so if he have enough refine than he deal more dmg than u wiht less refine but more mag point)

Joshcja - Sanctuary · June 2010

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I have a problem with the damage of a fist BM, the problem is that they have the highest dps in the game.. and that coupled with amazing control skills (lots of stuns + occult = bad news for a wizard). Then you constantly say that you can one shot them back.. which is very difficult being that they have tons of defensive skills to prevent you from doing that (while wizards can only really use immune skills).

I'm missing any point you are trying to make.. but just FYI fortify takes 55 energy while ToP takes 115.. I don't know where you got that antistuns take alot of energy.

You have no idea what my gear is like or what I have invested in my "toon". My skills alone have easily cost me over 200mil coins (and fist BM's are not very skill based.. the only really necessary skills are maybe sprints/buffs/a couple stuns/a couple other misc ones.. they don't use skills for dps). I also use a +10 HH 99 wep (at least another 100mil+) and a lunar ring (another 60mil) and lots of other misc gear. I doubt I've spent exactly the same amount as the BM (maybe a little more or less) but it's in the same ballpark where it shouldn't be that one sided.

You have absolutely no clue about wizard cultivations, don't even bring that up. Sage wizards are just as good as demon wizards for 1v1, it just depends on how you play.

about 200-300 mill less since we're talking gear and lvl 10 skills

TOP is definitly the high end heal on a similarly gear toon 2nd wind or wind sheild should be enough to survive also i dont beleive fortify would stop ocoult ice since its not technicly a stun

saying you can kill or charm bypass them and the chance is low but you could one shot our little bm whould just take a lot of luck whereas the bm cannot one shot you and would need considerable luck to charm bypass leaving the only real killing option DPS

our only real class "def" skill against wizzies is maq marrow or sutra (really ineffective and costs a spark) everything else comes from geni

at Shadowvzs...yes if the bm empys the geni dumps almost all his chi and generaly goes all out while the wizzie has no antistuns or big heals the wizzie will die

and no your not going to hit 10k hp with only +7 armor unless you shard it with vit stones or gimp your dps by having a ton of vit as base

Shadowvzs - Lost City · June 2010

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

about 200-300 mill less since we're talking gear and lvl 10 skills

TOP is definitly the high end heal on a similarly gear toon 2nd wind or wind sheild should be enough to survive also i dont beleive fortify would stop ocoult ice since its not technicly a stun

saying you can kill or charm bypass them and the chance is low but you could one shot our little bm whould just take a lot of luck whereas the bm cannot one shot you and would need considerable luck to charm bypass leaving the only real killing option DPS

our only real class "def" skill against wizzies is maq marrow or sutra (really ineffective and costs a spark) everything else comes from geni

at Shadowvzs...yes if the bm empys the geni dumps almost all his chi and generaly goes all out while the wizzie has no antistuns or big heals the wizzie will die

and no your not going to hit 10k hp with only +7 armor unless you shard it with vit stones or gimp your dps by having a ton of vit as base

u can 1 shot tooa little wizz :P acctually i got 1 shoted too from bm with his 2 Lv10 ulti combo => 6k+ ok eveyrbody was selfbuffed. my sage water dragon with 3rd fury (i used spark potion+frenzy+e.poison) did 5,5k on bm with his self buff+mdef sutra b:bye

u can reach ofc, and grade 4x9 hp stone enough.

code for ecatomb

0050QOpPV6ky3Eq2

[edit]
code broken but here a ss from calc http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/8589/80990994.jpg , the calc dont show the interval (pwcalc.ru dead atm) but i used pdef neck/belt what avoidable witha r9 ring example XD

Adroit - Lost City · June 2010

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

about 200-300 mill less since we're talking gear and lvl 10 skills

TOP is definitly the high end heal on a similarly gear toon 2nd wind or wind sheild should be enough to survive also i dont beleive fortify would stop ocoult ice since its not technicly a stun

saying you can kill or charm bypass them and the chance is low but you could one shot our little bm whould just take a lot of luck whereas the bm cannot one shot you and would need considerable luck to charm bypass leaving the only real killing option DPS

our only real class "def" skill against wizzies is maq marrow or sutra (really ineffective and costs a spark) everything else comes from geni

at Shadowvzs...yes if the bm empys the geni dumps almost all his chi and generaly goes all out while the wizzie has no antistuns or big heals the wizzie will die

and no your not going to hit 10k hp with only +7 armor unless you shard it with vit stones or gimp your dps by having a ton of vit as base

You aren't worth my time anymore. I've explained you are wrong over and over, and apparently you just can't accept that. It wouldn't matter if you said 2+2=5 and I proved 2+2=4.. you would hold on to it and say you're right forever.

_LiVe_eViL_ - Sanctuary · June 2010

This topic sure got derailed. Started out about expel and cloud eruption and now its about dps and one shots.

Nukesrus - Harshlands · June 2010

_LiVe_eViL_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

This topic sure got derailed. Started out about expel and cloud eruption and now its about dps and one shots.

It's ok, I enjoy reading Adroit roflpwn people with logic and experience.

BTW, as long as there's sage wizzies reading...

I have my first 3 demon skills and I'm level 92. I'm starting to look at swapping to sage now that I'm actually looking at joining a TW guild; are the benefits worth the cost of switching or should I just stay demon?

It's Cloud Eruption time again...

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