Unusually Squishy?
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Killahoe - Harshlands wrote: »yay for the lvl 71 sin that locks catas in tw and doesnt auto attack with 5aps.
Sorry to say, but unfortunately I don't use the Cash Shop, and I am horrible at merchanting, so any money I get I have to obtain through grinding, as I am also horrible at farming. This means I can't yet afford -interval gear, especially as this is my main on this server. Combine all of that with the fact that as I said, I am always recon and report on when catapults are coming down a certain lane, I'm better off stopping them if I can than getting distracted by less important people. Hence, standing between two towers and keeping a Barb who is pulling a catapult locked in place where he can die from the towers, is going to do far more than killing that Wizard who flew around the towers, or the Blademaster who ran through on his mount.
Your input may be valued, but it didn't make much of a impact as you didn't bother to wait and see what my gear would be like, or even possibly how much money I have.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »If I'm doing 5 APS, I'm not gonna just let it go on auto attack, I'm going to keep them stunned as well as use Rib Strike. You remember what that does right? 50% attack speed reduction, and if you really want to keep going, go Demon and turn that into 65%. That fist BM is going be down to 1.75 APS, so I'm quite sure that they won't be doing very much damage to me quickly for the next 30 seconds. The same goes with an Assassin, and if he is smart he would do the same to me, which puts us back to where we were, all on skill, unless, like I would, I happen to have Tidal protection on, allowing me a 50% chance to dodge any status effect. Yes, that 1300 HP is going to have saved me, especially if the Assassin attacking doesn't bother to start with a stun. So yes, Vit will be a good thing, as while I'm down to where they were in HP, they are even lower, and I just might have 285% more attack speed than them. However, lets assume I stick with Sage. I can Rib Strike him, and when he tries it on me, I put Shadow Escape on, and then immediately attack, dispelling the effect. Yes, even a Vit build can have the advantage over a full Dex.
Obviously, you either don't play an Assassin (or at the least don't know the skills), or you are a horrible one at that. Do a little more research into the skills and then come back so we may continue this discussion without any other problems.
50% chance to dodge a status effect is 100% amirite or amirite? So your 50% chance to get HIT by a status effect happens and you're stunned. And now you die in the same time a pure dex build died in because that 1300 hp was eaten up in a little over a second. But when you...you know...the offensive class....get the jump on someone, your damage output is NOWHERE near the potential it could, or should be. You are an assassin. You aren't designed to take hits. Which is why, of all the skills you listed, each one of them are designed to reduce the damage, or evade the damage taken. You're squishy for a reason. And thats because you are an offensive class.
You talk about the extra hp giving you some more time to react. But how much more time are you giving your opponent to react when you hit like a ****.0 -
ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »Just as I can make the same argument as before, being that I only need 4 G12 Citrines to be on par with Vit in HP, as well as have 5 slots more than full Dex for anything I want. I'll have more damage than the Vit and I'll have more slots for stones than Dex, so I can just as well say I have the best of both worlds. A jack of all trades has a little bit of everything, never being proficient at either. I can be proficient at both as well as have advantages over each due to the system in place for this game. I do see your point though, and it is a good one. However, just as Vit and Dex are viable builds, so is hybrid, and it has its advantages as well.
honestly, if you're going to talk about your vit and dex build, i'll just throw in my opinion. why stat that much vit (waste) when you can stat just a couple more str points while going full dex and get an HP helm to compensate for the vit... ? I bet i'll have more HP than you when you hit 9x with my 15 base vit stat-ted when i was a lowbie sin. and probley hit harder than you. ^_^ :thanks[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
50% chance to dodge a status effect is 100% amirite or amirite? So your 50% chance to get HIT by a status effect happens and you're stunned. And now you die in the same time a pure dex build died in because that 1300 hp was eaten up in a little over a second. But when you...you know...the offensive class....get the jump on someone, your damage output is NOWHERE near the potential it could, or should be. You are an assassin. You aren't designed to take hits. Which is why, of all the skills you listed, each one of them are designed to reduce the damage, or evade the damage taken. You're squishy for a reason. And thats because you are an offensive class.
You talk about the extra hp giving you some more time to react. But how much more time are you giving your opponent to react when you hit like a ****.
You are thinking of Focused Mind, which dodges damage. Tidal Protection though dodges the effects, so chances are 1:1 I will dodge the status effect, including stun, freeze, sleep, reduced attack rate, etc. Now, shall we look at the Demon skills?
Demon Shadow Teleport has a 5 second stun, more than enough time to put on Rib Strike on as well as get 2 sparks with Rising Dragon Strike and Tackling Slash, as well as keeping them from trying to run away. Headhunt has a 6 second stun, more than enough time to use Inner Harmony to get 2 sparks and put on a Power Dash to finish them off even quicker with all the critical hits if you want. Now, seeing as any Assassin with 5 APS is down to about 1.75 with Demon spark, do you really think they will be able to kill me quickly, even with slightly higher damage? Chances are they will not because only a few seconds after they come out of the stuns, they will be dead. Now, even put a Blademaster in there, they may last a little longer, but they still can't win, especially since Fists/Claws do less damage than Daggers, and they are putting in only as much Str as a Vit build Assassin has in Dex at the same level.
All I have done is repeat myself and add even more to it. You are still in the exact same position as your last post, that being the skills are still going to determine the outcome, as well as who gets the first attack. With Assassins, it doesn't matter who has the higher damage when both have 5 APS. It is about who gets the first stun off. With Blademasters, part of their stunlock relies on the axe skills, so if its a fist Blademaster, if they still don't stun first (which due to stealth, they probably won't), then they will only last a few seconds longer due to resistance which can still be cut in half by Tangling Mire.
I might give them more time to react with more HP, but with our Demon stuns, they won't have enough time to put up an offensive, only enough to run if they can successfully do that.
So, if you would like to try this again, I will be more than happy to continue. Please though, consider what the Assassin skills can do and think about how they can be used.StretchIt - Harshlands wrote: »honestly, if you're going to talk about your vit and dex build, i'll just throw in my opinion. why stat that much vit (waste) when you can stat just a couple more str points while going full dex and get an HP helm to compensate for the vit... ? I bet i'll have more HP than you when you hit 9x with my 15 base vit stat-ted when i was a lowbie sin. and probley hit harder than you. ^_^ :thanks
Actually, I'll still have more potential for higher health. I assume you are talking about the HA build for Assassin, being 2 Str 3 Dex every level. I also am assuming both Assassin's are 95 as you had said 9x, so I put it right in the middle. With the HA, you can wear a Great Land Helm which will give you 330 HP along with +10 Vit. This with your 15 base Vit will give you 4226 HP. Now, with full Vit and any type of gear with +1 or more Str, I can wear Helm of Aqua Viciousness to give me a total of 5191 HP, 965 more HP than you, while keeping the same damage. If you want to go even further and do a full HA Assassin, being 5 Str 5 Dex every 2 levels, then I'll have the advantage in damage (having a higher damage multiplier), and more than likely the advantage in HP as well as HA helm does not make up for the total Vit as well as the ability to wear a lower level HP helm, while you will only have more resistance as a HA character. As I said before though, In order to equal out that now roughly 965 HP, you will have to use 6 citrines G12, giving myself 6 more sockets to use than you.
It would be good for the use of being able to take more hits from Blademasters, Barbs, Archers, and Assassins, but what about when they use something like Occult Ice for magic damage or Tangling Mire to cut your resistance in half or more? Then you are losing in all aspects.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »You are thinking of Focused Mind, which dodges damage. Tidal Protection though dodges the effects, so chances are 1:1 I will dodge the status effect, including stun, freeze, sleep, reduced attack rate, etc. Now, shall we look at the Demon skills?
Demon Shadow Teleport has a 5 second stun, more than enough time to put on Rib Strike on as well as get 2 sparks with Rising Dragon Strike and Tackling Slash, as well as keeping them from trying to run away. Headhunt has a 6 second stun, more than enough time to use Inner Harmony to get 2 sparks and put on a Power Dash to finish them off even quicker with all the critical hits if you want. Now, seeing as any Assassin with 5 APS is down to about 1.75 with Demon spark, do you really think they will be able to kill me quickly, even with slightly higher damage? Chances are they will not because only a few seconds after they come out of the stuns, they will be dead. Now, even put a Blademaster in there, they may last a little longer, but they still can't win, especially since Fists/Claws do less damage than Daggers, and they are putting in only as much Str as a Vit build Assassin has in Dex at the same level.
All I have done is repeat myself and add even more to it. You are still in the exact same position as your last post, that being the skills are still going to determine the outcome, as well as who gets the first attack. With Assassins, it doesn't matter who has the higher damage when both have 5 APS. It is about who gets the first stun off. With Blademasters, part of their stunlock relies on the axe skills, so if its a fist Blademaster, if they still don't stun first (which due to stealth, they probably won't), then they will only last a few seconds longer due to resistance which can still be cut in half by Tangling Mire.
I might give them more time to react with more HP, but with our Demon stuns, they won't have enough time to put up an offensive, only enough to run if they can successfully do that.
So, if you would like to try this again, I will be more than happy to continue. Please though, consider what the Assassin skills can do and think about how they can be used.
Actually, I'll still have more potential for higher health. I assume you are talking about the HA build for Assassin, being 2 Str 3 Dex every level. I also am assuming both Assassin's are 95 as you had said 9x, so I put it right in the middle. With the HA, you can wear a Great Land Helm which will give you 330 HP along with +10 Vit. This with your 15 base Vit will give you 4226 HP. Now, with full Vit and any type of gear with +1 or more Str, I can wear Helm of Aqua Viciousness to give me a total of 5191 HP, 965 more HP than you, while keeping the same damage. If you want to go even further and do a full HA Assassin, being 5 Str 5 Dex every 2 levels, then I'll have the advantage in damage (having a higher damage multiplier), and more than likely the advantage in HP as well as HA helm does not make up for the total Vit as well as the ability to wear a lower level HP helm, while you will only have more resistance as a HA character. As I said before though, In order to equal out that now roughly 965 HP, you will have to use 6 citrines G12, giving myself 6 more sockets to use than you.
It would be good for the use of being able to take more hits from Blademasters, Barbs, Archers, and Assassins, but what about when they use something like Occult Ice for magic damage or Tangling Mire to cut your resistance in half or more? Then you are losing in all aspects.
You need to learn how to read. If you even read my post you would have read the fact that i stated if you get the jump your killing potential is less. Reaction time has nothing to do with YOU getting the jump. Your extra hp comes into play when they get the jump right? So im glad you can stun for 5 seconds and yadda yadda. Thats really great when you get the jump. But your damage is also less than a pure dex assassin which gives them the time to react to your assault. Now read my post again. If another class gets the JUMP on you. Then that extra 1300 hp will not give you time to get anything off. You're just as squishy. You can just take 1 extra hit, or from a melee with 5aps last 1 more second. Any melee thats built for pvp is going to have more than 1 stun and you're just as toast with 1300 more hp than you will with 1300 less. You squishy....period. And when your toking +6-8 gear, you have more than enough hp in pve to survive any AoE's you're going to take. Again. Read my writing.
Non
Pure
Dex
Builds
are
Trash.
Thanks.0 -
You need to learn how to read. If you even read my post you would have read the fact that i stated if you get the jump your killing potential is less. Reaction time has nothing to do with YOU getting the jump. Your extra hp comes into play when they get the jump right? So im glad you can stun for 5 seconds and yadda yadda. Thats really great when you get the jump. But your damage is also less than a pure dex assassin which gives them the time to react to your assault. Now read my post again. If another class gets the JUMP on you. Then that extra 1300 hp will not give you time to get anything off. You're just as squishy. You can just take 1 extra hit, or from a melee with 5aps last 1 more second. Any melee thats built for pvp is going to have more than 1 stun and you're just as toast with 1300 more hp than you will with 1300 less. You squishy....period. And when your toking +6-8 gear, you have more than enough hp in pve to survive any AoE's you're going to take. Again. Read my writing.
Non
Pure
Dex
Builds
are
Trash.
Thanks.
Then obviously you have negated pure Dex being the better build as well. At least with Vit build, you have a better chance to survive being attacked first. As I said, when it comes to PvP, whoever gets that first attack off between a Blademaster and Assassin or two Assassins will determine who wins. Therefore, by your own standards, it doesn't matter what the build is, the Assassin who gets jumped by either another Assassin or a Blademaster will die. However, like I've said, those 2-3 hits more you can take can determine whether you live or die, as an Assassin with Tidal Protection maxed has a chance to dodge stuns. If they don't dodge, 1300 HP gives them a buffer zone to survive longer.
Trust me, I read your post, and we are still at the same position as before because you don't change your argument and you don't add to it. It is simple, 1300 more HP means 2-3 hits more you can take and survive in PvP. While the pure Dex goes down, the Vit has a little more HP to keep him/her alive. Sure, against a Blademaster with 5 APS that is about 1/2 a second more. In case you forgot though, there are more classes than just Blademasters and Assassins, and Vit build means you can survive more hits from them as well.
I enjoy discussion, but you are just leading this in a circle by saying the same thing over and over, forcing me to say the same thing. I've given you the facts, Vit build survives a few more hits, Dex build has a little more damage. At 5 APS, that damage difference is negated due to our skills and the way they work, especially having 11 seconds of stun, on top of 5 seconds of sleep, 4 seconds of silence, and 9 seconds of freeze. Like I said, think about all the ways the skills can be used and combined, you will see that damage won't matter very much at all when you can keep your opponent from attacking you. Being able to survive more hits though, that will make a difference when you get attacked.
So, if you don't have anything new to bring to this discussion, please let it go and we will consider ourselves at a stalemate as you refuse to present an argument which is logically sound. If you do wish to continue this, please refrain from poor attempts at insults such as
when obviously I know how to read, and have been patient enough to read such repetitive posts. At the rate this is going, I probably could just skip your next post entirely and make a copy/paste with some small changes. I will hope though that we can actually make some progress with this discussion, and therefore will read your next post with as much fortitude as I have your previous posts.You need to learn how to read[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
Get to lvl 100 , pvp endgame then come back and say vit build is good.b:bye0
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Killahoe - Harshlands wrote: »Get to lvl 100 , pvp endgame then come back and say vit build is good.b:bye
Perhaps you didn't look at the math I have provided. Sure, experience can make a difference in someones opinion, but the stats already show that the difference in damage between both builds with the same gear so so small it isn't really that noticeable. The bloodsuck therefore isn't all that much, making the only differences that matter being the HP and the critical hit percent, neither of which can be made up for. It also has been shown that chances are whoever gets the first attack in a fight involving an Assassin (with the exception of a Barb) is the likely winner. With a Blademaster, the Assassin would need -int gear to include the class with that group.
As I said, that 1300 HP cannot be made up for and is a buffer. Yes, Vit suffers the 5% critical percent, that is what must sacrificed for that HP. However, at 5 APS, it won't matter very much as with Powerdash, you will still have 21% or more critical hit rate. Chances are that you will have a critical hit for every second you attack or more, and that is a lot, especially if you happen to get all 5 in a row. Meanwhile, if you happen to be attacked first, you have a better chance to be able to Shadow Escape.
So, instead of telling me to get to 100 and defend myself, you'll first have to get to 100 with all both or all three builds (including hybrid) and say which is better. Seeing as I doubt you have made 3 Assassins that have reached 100 or have restated yourself 3-4 times on a level 100 Assassin, I think we both can just say that we have our own opinions, but there are still facts. Facts being Vit has more survivabilty due to 1300 more HP and some extra resistance, along with 9 more slots for shards, while Dex has slightly higher damage and 5% more critical hit rate, as well as a little more evasion/accuracy.
Also, as a side note, you should probably go back and read the posts in this thread to give yourself credibility. You have obviously assumed I am a Vit build when I have already stated in this thread I am a hybrid build. Please do come back and join in this conversation after you catch up, but be sure to provide more in your post than just a single sentence which does nothing but make you look bad. I'd rather others (as well as myself) be able to benefit from this instead of just having to repeat myself over and over to people who don't even bother to provide some data to back their own claims.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
5% crit alone makes a big difference
and as your refine that 1300hp makes less and less of a difference.
if your gear isnt refined, sure 1300 more hp is good.
as soon as you get +5,6,7,10,12 that 1300 hp is not making a big difference.
(I should have stated this in my previous post about the HP having some use)
deaden nerves prevents 1 shots.I hope that I shall always possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of title, the character of an honest man. -George Washington0 -
My pure dex had more HP at level 70 than most vit builds have by 80.
Why?
Shards and refines.
That 1300 HP won't mean a thing if you don't have well sharded/refined gear since, while you can take one extra hit, your killing power will be crippled (Remember axe BMs before -interval became popular?). On top of that, once you have well sharded/refined gears, that 1.3k HP won't mean as much when you look at your total HP and your phys attack/crit rate. No matter how you do things, you're in LA and therefore, you're squishy. Do you really want to sacrifice the one thing you're supposed to be good at in order to try and pretend you aren't squishy?0 -
ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »Actually, I'll still have more potential for higher health. I assume you are talking about the HA build for Assassin, being 2 Str 3 Dex every level. I also am assuming both Assassin's are 95 as you had said 9x, so I put it right in the middle. With the HA, you can wear a Great Land Helm which will give you 330 HP along with +10 Vit. This with your 15 base Vit will give you 4226 HP. Now, with full Vit and any type of gear with +1 or more Str, I can wear Helm of Aqua Viciousness to give me a total of 5191 HP, 965 more HP than you, while keeping the same damage. If you want to go even further and do a full HA Assassin, being 5 Str 5 Dex every 2 levels, then I'll have the advantage in damage (having a higher damage multiplier), and more than likely the advantage in HP as well as HA helm does not make up for the total Vit as well as the ability to wear a lower level HP helm, while you will only have more resistance as a HA character. As I said before though, In order to equal out that now roughly 965 HP, you will have to use 6 citrines G12, giving myself 6 more sockets to use than you.
It would be good for the use of being able to take more hits from Blademasters, Barbs, Archers, and Assassins, but what about when they use something like Occult Ice for magic damage or Tangling Mire to cut your resistance in half or more? Then you are losing in all aspects.
um i said "stat a bit more str" and go PURE DEX. learn to read lol, nowhere did i mention HA. i have 5.3k hp with my 15 base vit, 113 str, and rest dex. i wear teh helm of aqua fishy-ness too. i think that beats your 5191 HP by around 100, and i deal at least 300-400 more damage than you because of your wasted vit. restat hun, stop fighting a losing battle. b:bye[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
StretchIt - Harshlands wrote: »um i said "stat a bit more str" and go PURE DEX. learn to read lol, nowhere did i mention HA. i have 5.3k hp with my 15 base vit, 113 str, and rest dex. i wear teh helm of aqua fishy-ness too. i think that beats your 5191 HP by around 100, and i deal at least 300-400 more damage than you because of your wasted vit. restat hun, stop fighting a losing battle. b:bye
ooo!
/epeen
i have 5313 with 3 base vit and 76 base strength at 95 b:victory
....sorry. felt like parading with my pants off for a bit there b:surrender
i decided to not go with extra str for a better helm. i got the lion spirit helm and plan to use it until i make the nirvana helm (only needs 104 str b:cute)I hope that I shall always possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of title, the character of an honest man. -George Washington0 -
Trawne - Lost City wrote: »5% crit alone makes a big difference
and as your refine that 1300hp makes less and less of a difference.
if your gear isnt refined, sure 1300 more hp is good.
as soon as you get +5,6,7,10,12 that 1300 hp is not making a big difference.
(I should have stated this in my previous post about the HP having some use)
deaden nerves prevents 1 shots.
It prevents 1 shots, but I'm not talking about 1 shots only. If they 1 shot you and Deaden Nerves saves you, the next hit will kill you, so it's pointless. Deaden Nerves will only be any good if it is going to take several hits to kill you at full health. And yes, as you refine it makes less of a difference. However, as I said, that is still 9 more slots and 1300 HP Vit has over Dex build, plus a little (but not much) extra resistance.My pure dex had more HP at level 70 than most vit builds have by 80.
Why?
Shards and refines.
That 1300 HP won't mean a thing if you don't have well sharded/refined gear since, while you can take one extra hit, your killing power will be crippled (Remember axe BMs before -interval became popular?). On top of that, once you have well sharded/refined gears, that 1.3k HP won't mean as much when you look at your total HP and your phys attack/crit rate. No matter how you do things, you're in LA and therefore, you're squishy. Do you really want to sacrifice the one thing you're supposed to be good at in order to try and pretend you aren't squishy?
Like many others, you haven't read what I have been saying. Give an Assassin of both builds the same gear, the Vit will have more HP still. So, with G12 shards only, that is 9 more slots Vit has than Dex if Dex tries to make up for the HP. I'm not trying to pretend this isn't a squishy class, and I have never said it isn't. I have said though that 1300 HP will save you from a few more hits. As I said above, if it is a 1 shot, it doesn't matter because the second shot will kill you anyways, regardless of if it is a critical hit or not on the first. Therefore, Vit is meant to be a buffer against several attacks rather than just one big one, but it can be for that big one as well.StretchIt - Harshlands wrote: »um i said "stat a bit more str" and go PURE DEX. learn to read lol, nowhere did i mention HA. i have 5.3k hp with my 15 base vit, 113 str, and rest dex. i wear teh helm of aqua fishy-ness too. i think that beats your 5191 HP by around 100, and i deal at least 300-400 more damage than you because of your wasted vit. restat hun, stop fighting a losing battle. b:bye
I said I was assuming you meant the HA build because you never said what your stats are. However, regardless, I have even shown you that Vit would still have more HP than you, especially seeing as you only have 16 more Str than a Vit would have at your level. Also, you have missed another important point, that being keeping the same armor, and in this case, changing only the helm. Even with the HA build, I assumed you had a better helm than Aqua Vicioiusness, so if you are thinking that by using it you will be doing anything but losing more HP to the Vit build, you are wrong. I'll indulge you though.
Edit: I'll continue with next post as this limited me for some reason.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
Dagger: Rampager Thorn Sunstorm
Helm: Helm of Aqua Viciousness
Armor: Skywalker Shell
Leggings: Skywalker Shins
Wristguards: Spirit Eater's Bracers
Boots: Spirit Eater's Boots
Robe: Galetrail Cape
Necklace: Necklace of Giant Strength
Belt: Belt of Sacred Ground
Ring 1:Marshall's Badge
Ring 2: Unicorn Spirit Ring: Order
(Note: I put +4 refines on all armor.)
This is the gear I assigned for your Assassin with 15 Vit, 113 Str, 347 Dex. It will have 5308 HP. I then am assigning the same gear with instead the Helmet of Lion Spirit for the helm for the Vit. The Vit has 6286 HP, so I think you lost in HP.
Now, I'm sure you are going to say "but those aren't MY gears" or something along those lines. So, I'll tell you what. Post your gears and their stats and we can use them to see if you win in HP with those gears instead. However, I doubt you will beat Vit in HP, so I wouldn't bother if I were you.restat hun, stop fighting a losing battle.
Well, apparently I didn't lose, as I proved the Vit has more HP still at 92 (a little under 1k in your case).[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
I honestly didn't intend on starting an argument in terms of build. I believe someone a few pages back was asking if I still even read the replies being posted, and I do. I very much appreciate everyone's opinions, even if they differ from one another. I can't say that either the DEX or VIT build have won me over, as now I am simply unsure. Both pose create advantages, but also disadvantages. I tend to enjoy having a lot of health, but if I can't kill my target quick enough then the extra health will only keep me alive a hit or two longer.
I've decided that from this point on, my extra point is going towards DEX. Not because the arguments presented won me over, but because I feel that upon reaching level 23, I definately have enough health at this point (1052). I now wish to focus on bringing up my physical attack, accuracy, evasion and crit rates.
Thank you all for your assistance. ^-^0 -
__Ophelia__ - Dreamweaver wrote: »I honestly didn't intend on starting an argument in terms of build. I believe someone a few pages back was asking if I still even read the replies being posted, and I do. I very much appreciate everyone's opinions, even if they differ from one another. I can't say that either the DEX or VIT build have won me over, as now I am simply unsure. Both pose create advantages, but also disadvantages. I tend to enjoy having a lot of health, but if I can't kill my target quick enough then the extra health will only keep me alive a hit or two longer.
I've decided that from this point on, my extra point is going towards DEX. Not because the arguments presented won me over, but because I feel that upon reaching level 23, I definately have enough health at this point (1052). I now wish to focus on bringing up my physical attack, accuracy, evasion and crit rates.
Thank you all for your assistance. ^-^
Glad to hear you made a decision. Good luck with your Assassin, I'm sure you will have fun with it. b:bye
By the way, you didn't start an argument (at least to me it is just a civil discussion), so don't worry about it. All it is is a discussion between two sides of a debate.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »It prevents 1 shots, but I'm not talking about 1 shots only. If they 1 shot you and Deaden Nerves saves you, the next hit will kill you, so it's pointless. Deaden Nerves will only be any good if it is going to take several hits to kill you at full health. And yes, as you refine it makes less of a difference. However, as I said, that is still 9 more slots and 1300 HP Vit has over Dex build, plus a little (but not much) extra resistance.
Edit: I'll continue with next post as this limited me.
this comes down to a difference of playstyle again. typically 1 shots are the other targets ultimate move. with deaden nerves negating it, causing my charm to tick, they have to drop my health all over again. thats where it comes in, if you arent charmed then yes, next hit kills you anyway, if you dont stun them that is. if you are charmed you have more breathing room.
pwcalc seems down atm or i'd show my intended 100 build. basically, i'm going pure dex, 8 sockets tiger gems, 4 sockets +2 defense gems, 12 sockets vit gems. with +10 armor it's over 10k hp.....i think...i was playing with it so much i just remember +12 (crazy dreaming) was almost 14k b:laugh
@OP. not really arguing, more like a civil debate....except when i'm tired and feel like being an **** b:laughI hope that I shall always possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of title, the character of an honest man. -George Washington0 -
Trawne - Lost City wrote: »this comes down to a difference of playstyle again. typically 1 shots are the other targets ultimate move. with deaden nerves negating it, causing my charm to tick, they have to drop my health all over again. thats where it comes in, if you arent charmed then yes, next hit kills you anyway, if you dont stun them that is. if you are charmed you have more breathing room.
pwcalc seems down atm or i'd show my intended 100 build. basically, i'm going pure dex, 8 sockets tiger gems, 4 sockets +2 defense gems, 12 sockets vit gems. with +10 armor it's over 10k hp.....i think...i was playing with it so much i just remember +12 (crazy dreaming) was almost 14k b:laugh
@OP. not really arguing, more like a civil debate....except when i'm tired and feel like being an **** b:laugh
This is basically the same as PW Calc.
Yes, with a charm, it is two hits. We come back though to what I was saying before, that if we aren't stunned, it will cause problems for them. However though, assuming that 1300 HP saves you, that means you have an extra attack to retaliate, which is the point of Vit build. However, as I was mentioning to someone earlier in this thread, Assassin's don't give much room for retaliation as magic classes are dead within the first stun with 5 APS, and the other classes we can slow their normal attacks and just keep them under a sinlock.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
__Ophelia__ - Dreamweaver wrote: »I'd honestly rather not revert to using a purely dexterity-based build, just for the simple fact that the extra vitality point gives me more HP.
I add the following per level:
STR = 1
AGI(DEX) = 3
VIT = 1
While adding 1 STR and 3 DEX is necessary, I initially thought that the extra VIT point would give me that much more of a fighting chance. I don't know, I'm really going to have to level my Sin before officially deciding whether the class is for me or not. I love it to death right now, but the constant fear of dying isn't particularly thrilling.
I've came to notice that adding points to vit helps less than it does when having an armor with "HP+50", or any other random number. Armor works a lot better. Save your points for help with dex. You'll hit really good, and you'll also have enough vit in the long run to withstand some hard hits from mobs.0 -
while everone has there own points of views over which is the best way to lvl there sin the simple fact is that it is each to there own and all depends on the players fighting style and thuse leaving it down to personal preference. if u play lyk a twit and just plain out run head on to ur foes the hp will be a hlp for the miniscule amout it is but if u employ the stratagy that is of the sin who get there name for ther offensive attacks speed and most importently there stealth then a pure is the best and smartest choice. and for those who want to keep arguing the point i repeat myself "IT ALLL COMES DOWN THE THE PERSON PLAYING THE CHAR AND THERE FIGHTING METHODS"0
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ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »Dagger: Rampager Thorn Sunstorm
Helm: Helm of Aqua Viciousness
Armor: Skywalker Shell
Leggings: Skywalker Shins
Wristguards: Spirit Eater's Bracers
Boots: Spirit Eater's Boots
Robe: Galetrail Cape
Necklace: Necklace of Giant Strength
Belt: Belt of Sacred Ground
Ring 1:Marshall's Badge
Ring 2: Unicorn Spirit Ring: Order
(Note: I put +4 refines on all armor.)
This is the gear I assigned for your Assassin with 15 Vit, 113 Str, 347 Dex. It will have 5308 HP. I then am assigning the same gear with instead the Helmet of Lion Spirit for the helm for the Vit. The Vit has 6286 HP, so I think you lost in HP.
Now, I'm sure you are going to say "but those aren't MY gears" or something along those lines. So, I'll tell you what. Post your gears and their stats and we can use them to see if you win in HP with those gears instead. However, I doubt you will beat Vit in HP, so I wouldn't bother if I were you.
Well, apparently I didn't lose, as I proved the Vit has more HP still at 92 (a little under 1k in your case).
the point is, you're treating an assassin as something of a tank. regardless of playing style, the main purpose of an assassin is quick kills, if you want vit and to tank hits, reroll a barb or bm, and tank whatever you want. i couldn't care less, i would rather not be hit at all than to tank damage. and it seems like you play archosaur, so your opinion in pvp doesn't really matter, because playing in a server where most people decide not to pk doesn't really prove how good your build is. endgame build is for sure pure dex, hard hits and HP is compensated by refines, not vit lol. although i can't rule out those crazy HA fist sins.. b:surrender[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
StretchIt - Harshlands wrote: »the point is, you're treating an assassin as something of a tank. regardless of playing style, the main purpose of an assassin is quick kills, if you want vit and to tank hits, reroll a barb or bm, and tank whatever you want. i couldn't care less, i would rather not be hit at all than to tank damage. and it seems like you play archosaur, so your opinion in pvp doesn't really matter, because playing in a server where most people decide not to pk doesn't really prove how good your build is. endgame build is for sure pure dex, hard hits and HP is compensated by refines, not vit lol. although i can't rule out those crazy HA fist sins.. b:surrender
I never said I was treating this class as a tank. Is it not the point of a Wizard to do extremely high amounts of damage in a single attack? I think so, but still you will see some of them stating Vit, or even going as far as to stat for light armor. Every DD class has a Vit build, builds which are obviously approved of as most (sticky) guides mention them and suggest them. I'm quite sure that a Wizard would rather not be hit at all, but yet they still will stat for more than just full Mag. As I said (and have shown), Vit build will give more survivability. So seeing as I have accomplished that, I'll move on to your next statement, which shows a lot of arrogance.
The server a person is on does not determine whether or not they are a factor in PvP. In case you forgot, we have Territory Wars as well, and my faction still has land on the map. We have fought against two of the top three factions (losing to both), in each one holding my own against far better equipped and far more skilled players. Apparently you forgot we do have that, as well as the option to duel as well, or just go PK mode and kill everyone we can.
As for end game, every Assassin (or most should) plan for -int gear and to reach the 5 APS cap. At that point, damage is pretty much nullified for reasons I have stated in this thread to someone. I have already posted them, and I am not going to go back a few pages just to quote myself, so I'll just say that if you are curious enough about it, to go back and read. However, I have proven it myself that Vit is a viable build for PvP with you only coming back and saying first that you would have more HP, and now just throwing that aside to say the point of an Assassin is to kill and not get hit. Fortunately enough, Vit builds can do that with our sinlock and the only ones who can go through it without a problem are Blademasters and Barbs, which is where 5 APS comes in. Stun them once, get 20 hits. Stun them a second time, kill them off.
So, in the end, the only way you can prove your point of full is the best build would be to go against every DD's build out there and say they have to go full or go home. Barbs would have to go full Vit or reroll, and Clerics would have to go full Mag for heal. Yet I'm quite sure that each of those classes is successful with builds besides full Mag/Dex/Str/Vit.
After all, remember back when on PW-MY fist Blademasters were a joke? Now, if you don't use fist, you stand no chance among other Blademasters who do. The majority would always say you were "noob" for using fists back then. As it turns out, the majority just proved all the fools were on the same side. That is something you might want to remember (as it is always a fun quote to use).[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
damn , your still going on about this vit build.
here is end game sin pure build http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=b6315f17570d565e
here is your end game vit build http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=69e94ebe8ea20fd0
compare both of the hp, its very little difference.
now compare damage and imagine what its like when sparked.0 -
Killahoe - Harshlands wrote: »damn , your still going on about this vit build.
here is end game sin pure build http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=b6315f17570d565e
here is your end game vit build http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=69e94ebe8ea20fd0
compare both of the hp, its very little difference.
now compare damage and imagine what its like when sparked.
You don't think I've compared them already? How do you think I did those calculations a few pages back on damage and HP, do you think I just made some numbers up and did them in my head? Believe it or not, I've looked into this. Now, assuming you read my posts, you would realize that the only class more damage at end game would show a real difference against is the Barb. Most Blademasters will go for -int and fists, which can be nullified by Rib Strike, and otherwise sinlock works wonders against them. Archers and magic classes are pretty much cake for Assassins, and other Assassins are easy as well if Vit get the first attack, and the same applies for Dex Assassins. Barbs are the only ones who would realistically pose a large threat to -int Assassin with 5 APS at end game, and even they will be fairly easy to kill just by keeping them sinlocked and attacking during the stuns with Tangling Mire.
Advantage of Vit? 1300 HP buffer and/or 9 more sockets for different G12 stones than citrines. Advantage of Dex? Slightly higher damage and 5% more critical strike rate. However, considering you are using the Vit stones in those calcs, it now becomes 10 extra slots, as we have 13 HP/Vit and G12 stones give 150 HP each. Add that up, you are losing 20 HP/stone, so roughly at the end of it, it becomes 10 slots, which can more than make up for the damage in other ways.
You don't have to admit Vit is a better build, even I am not saying it is necessarily the best build. I am saying though that it has its advantages and it shouldn't be discarded just because it doesn't have the same damage. As I've said in my previous post, before you can discount Vit as a viable build for PvE as well as PvP, you must also prove the same for all other builds of other classes that do not fit standards of pure builds. Do you have to agree Vit is the best build for everyone? No. Do you have to admit that some people may like it better and do better with it? I can't prove that anyone has as most of the community doesn't post on the site. However, I think it is plausible to believe there are many Assassins who use a build besides full Dex, whether it is Hybrid, capped Vit, or full Vit.
So, in regards to your first sentence, yes I will keep defending this build regardless of whether or not I use it (as I don't anymore since my first Assassin). So long as this thread gets responses of people saying full Dex is the only way, I will continue to post reasons why Vit is a good build as well. I don't require anyone to say it is the best, I only ask that you actually consider it for what it is, a viable build. Too many people keep saying "4 Dex 1 Str kthxbai" when someone asks what build they should use. However, they never say, "well, you have a choice of a few builds, and here they are." As of right now, the only problem I have with TurboTaxi's guide on here is that he doesn't list the other options of builds. If he added them, though not necessarily recommending them, I think it would make his guide that much better and worthy of sticky (though honestly it should be a sticky anyways).[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
this is still going on? b:sad
@killahoe: the difference in damage when sparked actually isnt that great since dex is not factored into the bonus spark damage
@aclucius. i'd chose vit over 150 hp gems just because vit also gives slight h[ regen, and a boost to pdef/mdef that should make up for the loss of 20hp/gem (would depend on current hp/defense levels)
before i get bashed for defending the vit builder, please remember i'm a pure dex on my sin with EXACTLY enough str to wear my 90 armor (ends up being 102 str due to +8 on bracers b:surrender)
oh aclu here's my setup at 100
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=d58a0bea3dfd5099
wrists and cape will have tiger gems, helm will have +2 def dragon gems (calc doesnt have them b:cry)
also only gave daggers -.05. i do plan (and hope) to get -.1 at some point b:laughI hope that I shall always possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of title, the character of an honest man. -George Washington0 -
Trawne - Lost City wrote: »this is still going on?
@killahoe: the difference in damage when sparked actually isnt that great since dex is not factored into the bonus spark damage
@aclucius. i'd chose vit over 150 hp gems just because vit also gives slight h[ regen, and a boost to pdef/mdef that should make up for the loss of 20hp/gem (would depend on current hp/defense levels)
before i get bashed for defending the vit builder, please remember i'm a pure dex on my sin with EXACTLY enough str to wear my 90 armor (ends up being 102 str due to +8 on bracers b:surrender)
oh aclu here's my setup at 100
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=d58a0bea3dfd5099
wrists and cape will have tiger gems, helm will have +2 def dragon gems (calc doesnt have them b:cry)
also only gave daggers -.05. i do plan (and hope) to get -.1 at some point b:laugh
I've looked at it, and even with 100 more Vit at 100, the difference in the resistance is about 1-2%, and the HP regen is 1.25 in battle mode. While a Vit build has all of that naturally due to the stats, they can add even more HP or even more resistance, and they will then beat full Dex with both resistances using 5 stones for each. This is assuming they choose to do this. Now the two would have equal HP and resistance, but the Vit still has 10 more slots. What I would personally use those for is 10 +2 Def level stones, giving me an additional 20% damage reduction from all attacks, effectively reducing the damage dealt by you significantly.
I can't really test that theory though as when I tried changing the stats to fit a Vit on your build, somehow the Vit build ended up with 5k more HP than yours, and I'm sure that somehow is not right. b:laugh Not to mention that I'm sure you know the different stones and how they work, and PW Calc shows Rogues having +20 Vit on armor, which I'm not sure if it is accurate or if those are supposed to be Dex (at least, I thought they gave Dex).
It is part of the reason I do not like to use PW Calc and instead prefer to calculate all damage myself, only using these sites for finding out resistance factors.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »I've looked at it, and even with 100 more Vit at 100, the difference in the resistance is about 1-2%, and the HP regen is 1.25 in battle mode. While a Vit build has all of that naturally due to the stats, they can add even more HP or even more resistance, and they will then beat full Dex with both resistances using 5 stones for each. This is assuming they choose to do this. Now the two would have equal HP and resistance, but the Vit still has 10 more slots. What I would personally use those for is 10 +2 Def level stones, giving me an additional 20% damage reduction from all attacks, effectively reducing the damage dealt by you significantly.
I can't really test that theory though as when I tried changing the stats to fit a Vit on your build, somehow the Vit build ended up with 5k more HP than yours, and I'm sure that somehow is not right. b:laugh Not to mention that I'm sure you know the different stones and how they work, and PW Calc shows Rogues having +20 Vit on armor, which I'm not sure if it is accurate or if those are supposed to be Dex (at least, I thought they gave Dex).
It is part of the reason I do not like to use PW Calc and instead prefer to calculate all damage myself, only using these sites for finding out resistance factors.
you probably put stone of the rogue in. all give vit when put in armor. they have different stats when put in a weapon. the stones were supposed to give 20 vit, but when released the devs messed up and made them 10. to make people stop complaining they changed the text to match +10. only primeval stones and stones of the savant are currently in game.
defense level isnt exactly a 1 for 1% either. i cant find the thread on them but after 18 it starts to taper down. +8 was something like 10% actually and 18 was ~18%
the 12 vit gems add 3% pdef and 2% mdef to the build i have as well as 1560 hp
if i swapped to 150hp gems and used garnets and sapphires i'd actually have a little less defense and/or hp over those 12 slots.
vit build (ignoring gem changes): http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=95e6304c1e116da5
pure dex build: http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=1b65f2f6bd03c323
dex build bonuses: ~740 more damage, 1200 accuracy, 600 evasion, 5% crit
vit build bonuses: 1300 more hp, ~440 pdef (1%), and ~430 mdef (2%)
thats assuming same gems and armor in both builds.
if the dex build wanted more hp, he could take some of the tiger gems i had intended for wrists and cape and add vit gems, but then the vit build gets an advantage in attack levels, making up for the damage. the vit build has no way of making up for the accuracy, but it could put evasion gems if he wanted...I hope that I shall always possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of title, the character of an honest man. -George Washington0 -
Trawne - Lost City wrote: »you probably put stone of the rogue in. all give vit when put in armor. they have different stats when put in a weapon. the stones were supposed to give 20 vit, but when released the devs messed up and made them 10. to make people stop complaining they changed the text to match +10. only primeval stones and stones of the savant are currently in game.
defense level isnt exactly a 1 for 1% either. i cant find the thread on them but after 18 it starts to taper down. +8 was something like 10% actually and 18 was ~18%
the 12 vit gems add 3% pdef and 2% mdef to the build i have as well as 1560 hp
if i swapped to 150hp gems and used garnets and sapphires i'd actually have a little less defense and/or hp over those 12 slots.
vit build (ignoring gem changes): http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=95e6304c1e116da5
pure dex build: http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=1b65f2f6bd03c323
dex build bonuses: ~740 more damage, 1200 accuracy, 600 evasion, 5% crit
vit build bonuses: 1300 more hp, ~440 pdef (1%), and ~430 mdef (2%)
thats assuming same gems and armor in both builds.
if the dex build wanted more hp, he could take some of the tiger gems i had intended for wrists and cape and add vit gems, but then the vit build gets an advantage in attack levels, making up for the damage. the vit build has no way of making up for the accuracy, but it could put evasion gems if he wanted...
I appreciate the clarification on the Rogue gems, but I still have the build up with the 5k more HP and its Savant stones, so I don't think that's the problem. I might have just messed it up somewhere and it glitched, but that is not important. I also appreciate the new info on the defense levels. I apparently had received wrong information, or at least information which was later changed to correctly state it.
However, accuracy matters less and less in end game as we have +xx% rings, with the exception of against other Assassins. The damage difference as I've said is also less than what PW Calc shows as it goes further into resistance taking effect, so the damage would be about 250-350 difference in PvP, though unfortunately I cannot test this as I don't know exactly how to take in all the different resistance variables. So, against other Assassins, that 1300 HP is going to take up roughly 3-4 hits, magic 1-2, and other physical attacks about 2-3. Enough that I think there are plenty who would like that ability to be able to tank through a few hits if necessary.
Now, once you take in Dragon stones into account, the difference in resistance becomes greater, as it does become 20 Def levels, so I assume it could be taken as 19% roughly. As I said, unfortunately I do not know the exact amount, but I imagine that brings the damage (on each other) to just about even due to resistance. At this point, it would become a matter of skill, while the little bit of extra HP. However, against other classes (squishy), if we don't kill them before the sinlock is up, which is pretty easy to do, we just have to stealth till we can start it up again. As far as our heavy armor enemies goes, due to their resistance, damage is going to be such a small difference that I don't believe it would be a factor. However, if any other level 100 Assassin with a different build than full Dex would come in, I think we might be able to figure it out.
The only problem here for us is that we don't have people of the same gear and level (or at least same level) to help make it more clear. So, until we do, we just have to deal with theory.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
well as for not being able to tank at lvl90 then you dont have good gear. im at lvl 81 and can tank and hold agro for all the boss's in fb79 with no probs. But i have Garnets and Sapphires in all my gear increasing magic def and phy def.
All you need is a cleric and tanking at this lvl with no one but you and cleric is actually quite easy. But like they said up top its all up to the gear you are wearing (i got either TT or legendary on). If you are wearing **** gear then you can forget it. Plus im not a pure dex build either.0 -
ok guys first off chill. One thing pure dex and vit to me are on even ground. The only real difference is pvp vs pve. i went way off track with my build, went vit till lvl65 and then started dumping all into dex. Im lvl81 now and have no trouble what so ever tanking fb79 that i just got. Now yes my armor is either TT or legendary. I also have garnets and spphires in all my armor. does that help out oh hell yea. Have i found a pure dex build "at my lvl" that can one shot me no. even with good dags they cant, trust me they have tried. Its really completely up to the player and gear to whether or not a vit or dex build can tank. If the players good and nows his skills (and how to actually use them) then he/she wont have an issue tanking. And on the aspect of gems, well thats up to what you want in your armor not what works or doesnt, one gem may work for one but not the other. and not to tick anyone off but putting hp gems in your armor is a waste to me. pure dexs that do that just want to be vit builds. pdef and mdef stones, they do make a diff. i tryed the hp ones and that wasnt worth ****.0
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