Unusually Squishy?
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__Ophelia__ - Dreamweaver
Posts: 10 Arc User
I understand that the assassin is THE squishiest melee class - others can at the very least attack from afar or tank effectively. I'm not wondering how to resolve this issue, because as of now my only answer would be potions (and lots of them). What I am here to ask is when exactly does the squishiness of the Sin come to a halt? I'm feeling terribly annoyed that my HP doesn't withstand much in terms of damage. If I am right in front of the mod I am fighting, thereby directly in harm's way, the Sin should have more HP.........one would think.
My current stats are: (Should they prove helpful in any way)
Lvl 22
Vitality: 29
Strength: 26
Magic: 5
Dexterity: 81
I add the following per level:
STR = 1
AGI(DEX) = 3
VIT = 1
I add the following per level:
STR = 1
AGI(DEX) = 3
VIT = 1
My current stats are: (Should they prove helpful in any way)
Lvl 22
Vitality: 29
Strength: 26
Magic: 5
Dexterity: 81
I add the following per level:
STR = 1
AGI(DEX) = 3
VIT = 1
I add the following per level:
STR = 1
AGI(DEX) = 3
VIT = 1
Post edited by __Ophelia__ - Dreamweaver on
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Comments
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__Ophelia__ - Dreamweaver wrote: »I understand that the assassin is THE squishiest melee class - others can at the very least attack from afar or tank effectively. I'm not wondering how to resolve this issue, because as of now my only answer would be potions (and lots of them). What I am here to ask is when exactly does the squishiness of the Sin come to a halt? I'm feeling terribly annoyed that my HP doesn't withstand much in terms of damage. If I am right in front of the mod I am fighting, thereby directly in harm's way, the Sin should have more HP.........one would think.
My current stats are: (Should they prove helpful in any way)
Lvl 22
Vitality: 29
Strength: 26
Magic: 5
Dexterity: 81
go pure dex. get life powders for the early levels. at 34 you become less squishy, at 59 you become a grinding machine with double spark + bloodpaint. at 90 you become a tank with the proper gearI hope that I shall always possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of title, the character of an honest man. -George Washington0 -
Trawne - Lost City wrote: »go pure dex. get life powders for the early levels. at 34 you become less squishy, at 59 you become a grinding machine with double spark + bloodpaint. at 90 you become a tank with the proper gear
What Trawne say . . b:surrender
A tank that can automatically heal it self and at the same time doing DD dps job.
Able to escape from potential party wipe with stealth. (only saving your self)[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sorry i speak engrish b:chuckle
Nickname doesn't have anything to do with sailor but related to a folklore
Use search, it was your best friends to avoid many suffering in internet...0 -
__Ophelia__ - Dreamweaver wrote: »I understand that the assassin is THE squishiest melee class - others can at the very least attack from afar or tank effectively. I'm not wondering how to resolve this issue, because as of now my only answer would be potions (and lots of them). What I am here to ask is when exactly does the squishiness of the Sin come to a halt? I'm feeling terribly annoyed that my HP doesn't withstand much in terms of damage. If I am right in front of the mod I am fighting, thereby directly in harm's way, the Sin should have more HP.........one would think.
My current stats are: (Should they prove helpful in any way)
Lvl 22
Vitality: 29
Strength: 26
Magic: 5
Dexterity: 81
Im at level 36, im a bit less squishy thanks to bloodpaint. but i still use alot of pots (Due to my lack of herb faming and such) and im pretty sure life powders would be great haha but im too lazy to farm for the herbs and stand and make em. but you do start using less and less pots as your level goes up. im Pure Dex so you should actually survive better than me due to your Vit points.0 -
I'd honestly rather not revert to using a purely dexterity-based build, just for the simple fact that the extra vitality point gives me more HP.
I add the following per level:
STR = 1
AGI(DEX) = 3
VIT = 1
While adding 1 STR and 3 DEX is necessary, I initially thought that the extra VIT point would give me that much more of a fighting chance. I don't know, I'm really going to have to level my Sin before officially deciding whether the class is for me or not. I love it to death right now, but the constant fear of dying isn't particularly thrilling.0 -
Every class is squishy at their first lvls... (except veno because of pet), when you get more lvls u'll see the difference and u'll start liking the class even more.
Example: My cleric when it was 1-40 I hated it and wanted to quit it because I always needed help with quests but now I can solo a few things.0 -
Non-squishy classes (from start):
Veno
BM
Barb
Squishy Classes (from start):
Cleric
Mage (only if mob is close)
Archer (only if mob is close)
Sin
Psychic (only if mob is close)
So, if you want a non-squishy class (also considering the fact your on a PvE server), go with a BM, veno, or Barb.
As for when squishies become powerful?
Sin - lvl 40 ~ 60
Cleric - lvl 59 ~ 60
Mage - lvl 40 ~ 60
Psychic - lvl 40 ~ 50
Archer - lvl 30 ~ 35
The "~" is incase your build is different from the "pure" build for that class.0 -
I agree with those who say you should go pure dex (aka 1 str 4 dex/lvl) Adding one vit per lvl only increase your survivabillity if you assume that you have full hp every time you attack a new mob. once the hp is below max, you have to substain/increase your hp lvl to not die, which make you use the same ammount of pots anyway. More actually, since you sacrifice attack power and dodge rate...
the key of being a good assasin, is to have good gear. If you do much damage, you get more hp from bloodpaint. if you have bad armour, you will take much damage... So in order to do any good, you need to spend a few coins, but if you do, you rock
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Exkaede - Lost City wrote: »I agree with those who say you should go pure dex (aka 1 str 4 dex/lvl) Adding one vit per lvl only increase your survivabillity if you assume that you have full hp every time you attack a new mob. once the hp is below max, you have to substain/increase your hp lvl to not die, which make you use the same ammount of pots anyway. More actually, since you sacrifice attack power and dodge rate...
the key of being a good assasin, is to have good gear. If you do much damage, you get more hp from bloodpaint. if you have bad armour, you will take much damage... So in order to do any good, you need to spend a few coins, but if you do, you rock
someone who understands. thank god LC has a few smart sins b:victoryI hope that I shall always possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of title, the character of an honest man. -George Washington0 -
Trawne - Lost City wrote: »go pure dex. get life powders for the early levels. at 34 you become less squishy, at 59 you become a grinding machine with double spark + bloodpaint. at 90 you become a tank with the proper gear
b:victory we get amazing on 90, but not enought to be a tank O.o b:dirty*stealth*...
HEY APPLE...
KNIFE!!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Exkaede - Lost City wrote: »I agree with those who say you should go pure dex (aka 1 str 4 dex/lvl) Adding one vit per lvl only increase your survivabillity if you assume that you have full hp every time you attack a new mob. once the hp is below max, you have to substain/increase your hp lvl to not die, which make you use the same ammount of pots anyway. More actually, since you sacrifice attack power and dodge rate...
the key of being a good assasin, is to have good gear. If you do much damage, you get more hp from bloodpaint. if you have bad armour, you will take much damage... So in order to do any good, you need to spend a few coins, but if you do, you rock
Take into consideration a Vit and a Dex build both have the same gears.
Okay, let's look then at how much more damage you can do with Lunar Dissector Daggers (759-1138), which we can all agree would be one of the highest hitting daggers. They will do an average of 948 damage. Now, let's assume you have a full Dex Assassin, so they have 100 more Dex at level 100, so we will just assume they are 100. The base damage then for these would be 632 more than Vit build. Now, take that and put in Bloodpaint, and you have 12~13 more bloodsuck on average. However, on top of having 1.25 more HP recovery in battle mode, the Vit build also would have 1300 more HP. However, it must also be taken in that the Dex build will have slightly higher accuracy and evasion than the Vit build, as well as 5% more critical hit rate. So what is the point of all of this?
Neither build is superior, it will depend on the person. However, seeing as we have to take more hits than other classes who can keep their targets at a distance, I think that having a bit more health may be worthwhile, especially as we all know that defense levels and resistance comes into play as well, reducing that base damage even more.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
NightReaper - Lost City wrote: »b:victory we get amazing on 90, but not enought to be a tank O.o b:dirty
my sin is 93. and i tank everything b:laugh
i tank frost, i solo bh89, i solo bh79. i tank lower peoples fb89. i tank some HH bosses.I hope that I shall always possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of title, the character of an honest man. -George Washington0 -
ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »Take into consideration a Vit and a Dex build both have the same gears.
Okay, let's look then at how much more damage you can do with Lunar Dissector Daggers (759-1138), which we can all agree would be one of the highest hitting daggers. They will do an average of 948 damage. Now, let's assume you have a full Dex Assassin, so they have 100 more Dex at level 100, so we will just assume they are 100. The base damage then for these would be 632 more than Vit build. Now, take that and put in Bloodpaint, and you have 12~13 more bloodsuck on average. However, on top of having 1.25 more HP recovery in battle mode, the Vit build also would have 1300 more HP. However, it must also be taken in that the Dex build will have slightly higher accuracy and evasion than the Vit build, as well as 5% more critical hit rate. So what is the point of all of this?
Neither build is superior, it will depend on the person. However, seeing as we have to take more hits than other classes who can keep their targets at a distance, I think that having a bit more health may be worthwhile, especially as we all know that defense levels and resistance comes into play as well, reducing that base damage even more.
You can get the same hp from +3 all your gear as you would going vit. And getting +3 is pretty easy ESPECIALLY at level 100. On top of that 100 more dex is i believe close to 10% more evade. And if you manage to get your gear even higher than +3 you can slot evasion instead of hp (since you really only need about 40* you opponents lvl in hp) making you a grinding god. I particularly love evading BM's stuns and barbs just about everything (lol low dex) in pvp. Pure build IS a superior build. Assassin's best defense is their offense. 5% crit, less accuracy, less evade for a measly 1300 hp which for most mobs is like 2-3 hits at higher levels just isn't a fair trade off, and you're completely gimping yourself by thinking both builds are = and just preference.0 -
You can get the same hp from +3 all your gear as you would going vit. And getting +3 is pretty easy ESPECIALLY at level 100. On top of that 100 more dex is i believe close to 10% more evade. And if you manage to get your gear even higher than +3 you can slot evasion instead of hp (since you really only need about 40* you opponents lvl in hp) making you a grinding god. I particularly love evading BM's stuns and barbs just about everything (lol low dex) in pvp. Pure build IS a superior build. Assassin's best defense is their offense. 5% crit, less accuracy, less evade for a measly 1300 hp which for most mobs is like 2-3 hits at higher levels just isn't a fair trade off, and you're completely gimping yourself by thinking both builds are = and just preference.
You are right, you can get all that from +3. Now if you remember, I had said apply all of the same gear to each build, so it's still 1300 more HP. Now, unless you have something to prove that it is 10% difference in evasion, I'm not going to be able to take your word on that as like resistance, having twice as much doesn't mean twice the damage reduction. The same applies to accuracy, so I am going to take a guess that the 600 more evasion will be roughly 3-6%, which is not very much (seeing as it is about 1/20 hits it works on), and is covered by 4 G12 amber stones, compared to the 9 G12 citrine stones needed to make up for the 1300 HP. However, let's run with this a little bit.
Have the full Dex have the 9 G12 citrines and the Vit have 9 G12 amber stones. You'll pan out even to the Vit in terms of HP, but the Vit will have only 50 less HP, and 930 more evasion. Now, if what you said is right and it was a 10% difference in evasion, what is the advantage the Vit has in this case? It only needed 4 to still have more, but with 9, it now has the Dex beat with evasion, and is only barely beat by the HP. If the Vit wanted, it could replace one of those ambers with a citrine and still beat the Dex in both HP and evasion.
Vit build has more room for more stones to make up the difference than the full Dex. The only real difference that can be seen and not made up for is in the HP of the Vit and the critical hit rate of the Dex.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
....lets make this real simple people
1 item refines for more damage
1 item shards for more damage (not counting tiger gems in your armor, which can be useful. DONT PUT THESE IN YOUR WEAPON)
6 items refine for HP
6 items you can shard for more HP
4 items you can refine for resistance
go pure or go home b:byeI hope that I shall always possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of title, the character of an honest man. -George Washington0 -
Trawne - Lost City wrote: »....lets make this real simple people
1 item refines for more damage
1 item shards for more damage (not counting tiger gems in your armor, which can be useful. DONT PUT THESE IN YOUR WEAPON)
6 items refine for HP
6 items you can shard for more HP
4 items you can refine for resistance
go pure or go home b:bye
Now take those that you can shard for HP, and 9 slots can be used for something else and you'll still have as much HP as someone with those 9.
Sorry to say, but while full Dex is a very good build, it isn't the only viable build, and certainly is not always the best. After all, you still have yet to make any logical argument as to why pure is still better, seeing as all you have done is told us the obvious.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »Now take those that you can shard for HP, and 9 slots can be used for something else and you'll still have as much HP as someone with those 9.
Sorry to say, but while full Dex is a very good build, it isn't the only viable build, and certainly is not always the best. After all, you still have yet to make any logical argument as to why pure is still better, seeing as all you have done is told us the obvious.
9 slots for what? tiger gems? sure you can do that, but if you're THAT worried about your damage why arent you pure?
pure dex gives crit. this is the biggest factor.
pure dex gives damage. this is another major factor.
pure dex gives evasion. laughable in most cases but still a nice bonus.
pure dex gives accuracy. a big factor as well. i can use a single misty ring and hardly miss my target. HA i never miss on. LA's i may miss 1 of 10 if i'm unlucky. i still usually dont miss.
were you going to use those 9 slots for resists? you could do that but is 200 pdef or mdef worth more than a 10 vit stone that would give 230hp and also a small bonus to pdef and mdef both?
9 slots for +2 level dragon gems? this could be a useful one yes. and one that would take a bit of math to determine when it is better than using HP shards.
so great. now i'm a vit built sin with less damage than a pure getting less hp back per strike, taking longer to kill my targets but hey i can last another hit.
so...i'm able to take another hit. an assassin....taking another hit....building himself to take another hit.....AT THE COST OF KILLING SLOWER CAUSING ME TO TAKE ANOTHER HIT
the object of an assassin is to kill quickly and get out of the fight. if you arent killing your target as quickly as possible you arent doing it right.
hell, the object of PK is to kill your target quickly then get out of the fight. if it dies fast it cant strike back. if it dies fast it's friends have less time to react
you go ahead and take your extra hit while taking longer to kill them back. i'll keep killing my target in 4 seconds and vanishing before i can get hit at all.I hope that I shall always possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of title, the character of an honest man. -George Washington0 -
Trawne - Lost City wrote: »9 slots for what? tiger gems? sure you can do that, but if you're THAT worried about your damage why arent you pure?
pure dex gives crit. this is the biggest factor.
pure dex gives damage. this is another major factor.
pure dex gives evasion. laughable in most cases but still a nice bonus.
pure dex gives accuracy. a big factor as well. i can use a single misty ring and hardly miss my target. HA i never miss on. LA's i may miss 1 of 10 if i'm unlucky. i still usually dont miss.
were you going to use those 9 slots for resists? you could do that but is 200 pdef or mdef worth more than a 10 vit stone that would give 230hp and also a small bonus to pdef and mdef both?
9 slots for +2 level dragon gems? this could be a useful one yes. and one that would take a bit of math to determine when it is better than using HP shards.
so great. now i'm a vit built sin with less damage than a pure getting less hp back per strike, taking longer to kill my targets but hey i can last another hit.
so...i'm able to take another hit. an assassin....taking another hit....building himself to take another hit.....AT THE COST OF KILLING SLOWER CAUSING ME TO TAKE ANOTHER HIT
the object of an assassin is to kill quickly and get out of the fight. if you arent killing your target as quickly as possible you arent doing it right.
hell, the object of PK is to kill your target quickly then get out of the fight. if it dies fast it cant strike back. if it dies fast it's friends have less time to react
you go ahead and take your extra hit while taking longer to kill them back. i'll keep killing my target in 4 seconds and vanishing before i can get hit at all.
Okay, now go back and read my post from before. With one of the highest hitting daggers in the game, your base damage is approximately 650 more than a Vit build, and that is before resistance and defense level kicks in. Now let's assume you do put those in, say on any class that has 50%+ physical resistance. You now do roughly 325 more damage than me, but we still need to count that we hit far less on other people than we do mobs, so lets put that in there. You are down to, about what, 100-200 more damage, about 1/4 of a skill's hit?
Now, let's take in that you get jumped by someone. While the full Dex dies, the Vit is still alive, long enough for 2-3 hits more, enough time to stun, and keep them locked till either they die or just enough to get away.
Yes, 9 more spots for anything you want, which can include more HP, more evasion, more resistance, dragon gems, or anything else. Meanwhile, our damage is only slightly reduced due to barely notice any difference. In case you missed it, with the Lunar Dissector Daggers, you will get a bloodsuck of about 12-13, and that is before resistance of a mob and/or player kicks in.
As I said, the major factor is the critical hit rate, which can be offset a Leaf Dance and/or a decent gear. After all, base crit % at both Vit and Dex is 15 and 20 respectively, before even counting in any other effects such as gear or skills. With the same gear, that is 5% regardless, but also 1300 HP regardless, two or three more hits worth from another Assassin. And after all, as you said, an Assassin does get in, kill, and get out. That doesn't mean you are going to be left alone all the time and never attacked.
It's true, as I have said myself, full Dex is a PvP based build, and anyone who actively participates in it on a regular basis should use this build. Not everyone though wants to PvP all the time, and some people who do would rather be able to take a few more hits. As I said before, the build does not determine superiority, it is the skill of the player and the gear (and of course, the skills themselves).[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
NightReaper - Lost City wrote: »b:victory we get amazing on 90, but not enought to be a tank O.o b:dirty
Proper gear + bloodpaint + power dash + 5 aspd + spark heal + spark bonus damage = tank assassin
Your charm would rarely tick, you have perma spark, each of your attack heal you, you might not need other class to heal you, with pure dex you more damage, more dex more critical, you can escape if things goes wrong.
Now these makes me want to play my assassin again . . maybe after my cleric reach mid lv.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sorry i speak engrish b:chuckle
Nickname doesn't have anything to do with sailor but related to a folklore
Use search, it was your best friends to avoid many suffering in internet...0 -
ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »Okay, now go back and read my post from before. With one of the highest hitting daggers in the game, your base damage is approximately 650 more than a Vit build, and that is before resistance and defense level kicks in. Now let's assume you do put those in, say on any class that has 50%+ physical resistance. You now do roughly 325 more damage than me, but we still need to count that we hit far less on other people than we do mobs, so lets put that in there. You are down to, about what, 100-200 more damage, about 1/4 of a skill's hit?
Now, let's take in that you get jumped by someone. While the full Dex dies, the Vit is still alive, long enough for 2-3 hits more, enough time to stun, and keep them locked till either they die or just enough to get away.
Yes, 9 more spots for anything you want, which can include more HP, more evasion, more resistance, dragon gems, or anything else. Meanwhile, our damage is only slightly reduced due to barely notice any difference. In case you missed it, with the Lunar Dissector Daggers, you will get a bloodsuck of about 12-13, and that is before resistance of a mob and/or player kicks in.
As I said, the major factor is the critical hit rate, which can be offset a Leaf Dance and/or a decent gear. After all, base crit % at both Vit and Dex is 15 and 20 respectively, before even counting in any other effects such as gear or skills. With the same gear, that is 5% regardless, but also 1300 HP regardless, two or three more hits worth from another Assassin. And after all, as you said, an Assassin does get in, kill, and get out. That doesn't mean you are going to be left alone all the time and never attacked.
It's true, as I have said myself, full Dex is a PvP based build, and anyone who actively participates in it on a regular basis should use this build. Not everyone though wants to PvP all the time, and some people who do would rather be able to take a few more hits. As I said before, the build does not determine superiority, it is the skill of the player and the gear (and of course, the skills themselves).
first off, with my daggers 100 dex is 830 damage and i'm only 93. at 100 thats a bigger difference. also my daggers are frost and only +7. anyone with +10 dream breaker or nirvana will see a bigger difference. also, thats PER hit. when swinging 4-5 times a second your damage loss is much larger than 830. that IS a big difference.
then i got to you actually suggesting evasion shards....and i'm done talking with you. you're just not good enough anymore to waste time on.
oh, and i tank and pve as pure dex with no trouble b:byeI hope that I shall always possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of title, the character of an honest man. -George Washington0 -
Trawne - Lost City wrote: »first off, with my daggers 100 dex is 830 damage and i'm only 93. at 100 thats a bigger difference. also my daggers are frost and only +7. anyone with +10 dream breaker or nirvana will see a bigger difference. also, thats PER hit. when swinging 4-5 times a second your damage loss is much larger than 830. that IS a big difference.
oh, and i tank and pve as pure dex with no trouble b:bye
That is the Dream Breakers you are talking about,while these are the ones I was talking about. And actually, in terms of base damage, it's 870 damage difference, but remember, that is base damage, which does not take into account resistance, defense level, etc. Not much more than the 648 I presented before, and yours are at +7, which is what I took into account. Again, take what I said into account, you have about 350 more damage per hit, about 7 bloodsuck. So per hit at 5 attacks/second, that is about 35 more HP you are bloodsucking, not very much. However, seeing as even Blademasters could tank before Assassins came along using 5 aps with fists, why couldn't an Assassin do the same, especially since we hit higher, have more critical hits, and have a skill to give us back HP while we do damage? If you think you are going to surprise me by saying as a full Dex you can tank and do PvE without any problems, you are sadly mistaken, as I never said you couldn't.
Now, let's say this. I have easily killed Barbs and Blademasters several levels higher than me, and even more easily arcanes that are in the upper 9x levels. Did I need stealth? No, just dueled so they knew I was coming, and still I won, easily against all but a very few. Based on your idea, I shouldn't have won as I am not the right build, but I still did. You can say that they were all horrible players, but I seriously doubt that, in the case of most of them anyways.
However, apparently to you, damage is all. So Blademasters better stop adding Vit and Dex into their builds, Archers better be pure Dex, and arcanes can't do anything but 1 Str 9 Mag every 2 levels. Oh, but wait, there is still this rather interesting build. I guess that is a fail build as well?then i got to you actually suggesting evasion shards....and i'm done talking with you. you're just not good enough anymore to waste time on.
Hmm, if I remember right, I was stating what one could do with their extra slots, not what I personally would do. But let me make sure....Yes, 9 more spots for anything you want, which can include more HP, more evasion, more resistance, dragon gems, or anything else.
Yep, I said anything you want, including evasion. While I would personally prefer to just add HP (or those gems to give +defense level), a person might want more evasion. Perhaps you should try reading, and then comprehending what I am saying, as it would make things much simpler.
So, in conclusion, you have obviously missed the whole point of what I have been saying, that being Vit is a perfectly viable build, and will provide more survivability at the cost of some damage. However, the higher damage from Dex does not increase survivability in the case of two characters of both builds having the same gear. You say I am not good enough to waste time on anymore, but you seemed to skip over that entire point. I asked for you to give reasons why pure is better, and all you come up with is damage, while I am saying you can get even more HP from Vit, on top of some extra resistance, a small bonus in HP recovery, all of which allowing you to take 2-3 more hits that full Dex couldn't take. Seeing as there are successful Assassin's among both builds, I'm quite certain that both are indeed great builds, having their own strengths and weaknesses. All you have done is repeat over and over the most obvious strength, but failed to counter it's most obvious weakness which cannot be made up for.
Now, if you would like to continue this conversation, I'd be more than happy to. However, I'm going to ask that instead of making unsuccessful attempts to insult me, you focus more on how to improve your argument, because as it is, you have brought only one thing to back you up, that being damage. I've already made it clear though, it is not as great a difference as you make it out to be when it is actually applied. So please, bring something else to the table. If not, then either say you understand that Vit is as optional and viable a build as full Dex (because you do not appear to think so) or just say nothing. Either is fine, but I think it would be much more beneficial to discuss further.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »That is the Dream Breakers you are talking about,while these are the ones I was talking about. And actually, in terms of base damage, it's 870 damage difference, but remember, that is base damage, which does not take into account resistance, defense level, etc. Not much more than the 648 I presented before, and yours are at +7, which is what I took into account. Again, take what I said into account, you have about 350 more damage per hit, about 7 bloodsuck. So per hit at 5 attacks/second, that is about 35 more HP you are bloodsucking, not very much. However, seeing as even Blademasters could tank before Assassins came along using 5 aps with fists, why couldn't an Assassin do the same, especially since we hit higher, have more critical hits, and have a skill to give us back HP while we do damage? If you think you are going to surprise me by saying as a full Dex you can tank and do PvE without any problems, you are sadly mistaken, as I never said you couldn't.
Now, let's say this. I have easily killed Barbs and Blademasters several levels higher than me, and even more easily arcanes that are in the upper 9x levels. Did I need stealth? No, just dueled so they knew I was coming, and still I won, easily against all but a very few. Based on your idea, I shouldn't have won as I am not the right build, but I still did. You can say that they were all horrible players, but I seriously doubt that, in the case of most of them anyways.
However, apparently to you, damage is all. So Blademasters better stop adding Vit and Dex into their builds, Archers better be pure Dex, and arcanes can't do anything but 1 Str 9 Mag every 2 levels. Oh, but wait, there is still this rather interesting build. I guess that is a fail build as well?
Hmm, if I remember right, I was stating what one could do with their extra slots, not what I personally would do. But let me make sure....
Yep, I said anything you want, including evasion. While I would personally prefer to just add HP (or those gems to give +defense level), a person might want more evasion. Perhaps you should try reading, and then comprehending what I am saying, as it would make things much simpler.
So, in conclusion, you have obviously missed the whole point of what I have been saying, that being Vit is a perfectly viable build, and will provide more survivability at the cost of some damage. However, the higher damage from Dex does not increase survivability in the case of two characters of both builds having the same gear. You say I am not good enough to waste time on anymore, but you seemed to skip over that entire point. I asked for you to give reasons why pure is better, and all you come up with is damage, while I am saying you can get even more HP from Vit, on top of some extra resistance, a small bonus in HP recovery, all of which allowing you to take 2-3 more hits that full Dex couldn't take. Seeing as there are successful Assassin's among both builds, I'm quite certain that both are indeed great builds, having their own strengths and weaknesses. All you have done is repeat over and over the most obvious strength, but failed to counter it's most obvious weakness which cannot be made up for.
Now, if you would like to continue this conversation, I'd be more than happy to. However, I'm going to ask that instead of making unsuccessful attempts to insult me, you focus more on how to improve your argument, because as it is, you have brought only one thing to back you up, that being damage. I've already made it clear though, it is not as great a difference as you make it out to be when it is actually applied. So please, bring something else to the table. If not, then either say you understand that Vit is as optional and viable a build as full Dex (because you do not appear to think so) or just say nothing. Either is fine, but I think it would be much more beneficial to discuss further.
b:lipcurl i'm an **** when i'm tired. lets try this again.
yes vit build is viable. no i dont consider it any good personally. yes some people use it and do fine. have yet to meet a sin or even archer on LC that was any good with vit though. mages, archers and sins should all be pure damage and use armor for hp/resists.
bm's are a seperate matter. bm's need to take hits as they run in to stun, dragon, w/e they want to do. dragons also make them pretty beast even with no str in their build. a bm can go fists with axes, get chi, dragon, swap to fists, and kill the target due to amp.
sins shouldnt be getting hit as they close in on their targets. this is why they should be pure. stealth is their extra hp as they wont be taking those hits. if you are running up on targets like a bm because it's a mass pvp fight or something.....it's best to play a bm then.
sins are meant to kill as quickly as possible and skirt around the outside picking off targets holding back or outside the main fight. occasionally they use stealth to move in, kill a choice target, then move back out.I hope that I shall always possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of title, the character of an honest man. -George Washington0 -
Trawne - Lost City wrote: »b:lipcurl i'm an **** when i'm tired. lets try this again.No offense taken here, so we can continue on with the discussion. b:laugh
yes vit build is viable. no i dont consider it any good personally. yes some people use it and do fine. have yet to meet a sin or even archer on LC that was any good with vit though. mages, archers and sins should all be pure damage and use armor for hp/resists.
bm's are a seperate matter. bm's need to take hits as they run in to stun, dragon, w/e they want to do. dragons also make them pretty beast even with no str in their build. a bm can go fists with axes, get chi, dragon, swap to fists, and kill the target due to amp.
sins shouldnt be getting hit as they close in on their targets. this is why they should be pure. stealth is their extra hp as they wont be taking those hits. if you are running up on targets like a bm because it's a mass pvp fight or something.....it's best to play a bm then.
sins are meant to kill as quickly as possible and skirt around the outside picking off targets holding back or outside the main fight. occasionally they use stealth to move in, kill a choice target, then move back out.
Well, then I think the only thing we differ in opinion on is the strategy we each like to use. You are more offensive, while I am more defensive, contributing to our difference. Unfortunately, we can't test the builds ourselves by crossing servers and trying the builds on each other.
To better explain though, when in TW (which is where the majority of my PvP comes from as it is just more fun to me), I tend to wait between two towers on a road and just keep the catapults from moving. When doing this, I tend to take a lot of hits from pets, as well as the person I'm locking in place, so I prefer more HP to survive those hits. When in duels, if my Shadow Teleport is in cooldown, I tend to let them come to me, freeze/sleep/stun them, and move away to allow Puncture Wound and ranged attacks to do the majority of the damage, while letting skills be spike damage.
In PK, I will let them see me coming and use Shadow Teleport to close the distance quickly, go in for a lot of damage by trying to keep sinlock on them. For arcanes, they are dead before I even get halfway through the sinlock, leaving the only problem being Barbs and Blademasters.
However, for PK with them, I just check if they are charmed, and if they aren't, I kite them. If they are, I'll sinlock them as best I can and then put Focused Mind on after the first round of sinlock and just beat away at them with my most powerful skills, assuming I can get their HP under half within 5 seconds. If I can't, I don't bother with them (unless I'm feeling mean and just want to tick their charm like crazy).
So, perhaps we should try to find a what the Vit build is best for in PvP? I can agree, as well as you, Dex is far better for the Assassin who wants to rely on their skill damage and/or -interval gear to reach that 5 aps, but very few can do that so quickly, especially on the new server. So, in your opinion, when do you think Vit could be better for PvP?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »Well, then I think the only thing we differ in opinion on is the strategy we each like to use. You are more offensive, while I am more defensive, contributing to our difference. Unfortunately, we can't test the builds ourselves by crossing servers and trying the builds on each other.
To better explain though, when in TW (which is where the majority of my PvP comes from as it is just more fun to me), I tend to wait between two towers on a road and just keep the catapults from moving. When doing this, I tend to take a lot of hits from pets, as well as the person I'm locking in place, so I prefer more HP to survive those hits. When in duels, if my Shadow Teleport is in cooldown, I tend to let them come to me, freeze/sleep/stun them, and move away to allow Puncture Wound and ranged attacks to do the majority of the damage, while letting skills be spike damage.
In PK, I will let them see me coming and use Shadow Teleport to close the distance quickly, go in for a lot of damage by trying to keep sinlock on them. For arcanes, they are dead before I even get halfway through the sinlock, leaving the only problem being Barbs and Blademasters.
However, for PK with them, I just check if they are charmed, and if they aren't, I kite them. If they are, I'll sinlock them as best I can and then put Focused Mind on after the first round of sinlock and just beat away at them with my most powerful skills, assuming I can get their HP under half within 5 seconds. If I can't, I don't bother with them (unless I'm feeling mean and just want to tick their charm like crazy).
So, perhaps we should try to find a what the Vit build is best for in PvP? I can agree, as well as you, Dex is far better for the Assassin who wants to rely on their skill damage and/or -interval gear to reach that 5 aps, but very few can do that so quickly, especially on the new server. So, in your opinion, when do you think Vit could be better for PvP?
that. that is a good time for vit build until you get higher refines to get 8-10k without it. that can be pretty useful too. you can surprise the first cata from stealth so he wont have to to pot through.
i think the only other time would be in group pvp where your concern is tripping up the enemy from getting to your guys. you could use teleports and sprint to get around quickly and tackle,stun,sleep targets so your team can get away. you'ld draw a lot of attention to yourself while not really focusing on damageI hope that I shall always possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of title, the character of an honest man. -George Washington0 -
Trawne - Lost City wrote: »that. that is a good time for vit build until you get higher refines to get 8-10k without it. that can be pretty useful too. you can surprise the first cata from stealth so he wont have to to pot through.
i think the only other time would be in group pvp where your concern is tripping up the enemy from getting to your guys. you could use teleports and sprint to get around quickly and tackle,stun,sleep targets so your team can get away. you'ld draw a lot of attention to yourself while not really focusing on damage
Sounds a lot like what we do in dungeons as far as being a crowd control DD. In addition, seeing as I'm on a PvE, and as I said, most of the PvP I do is in TW, and considering the role I play in TW (being I'm usually just recon), can we now agree that Vit build does have its place and in fact would be an important part of PvP in groups? I can still easily take out arcanes and archers, leaving only HA and other Assassins (who usually don't create any problem) as my only real worries.
By the way, just thought I'd put in a note, I'm hybrid build. So I'm not really going to have that much Vit, but still enough to put me ahead of most full Dex in HP and ahead of Vit in damage, getting the best of both worlds.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »Okay, now go back and read my post from before. With one of the highest hitting daggers in the game, your base damage is approximately 650 more than a Vit build, and that is before resistance and defense level kicks in. Now let's assume you do put those in, say on any class that has 50%+ physical resistance. You now do roughly 325 more damage than me, but we still need to count that we hit far less on other people than we do mobs, so lets put that in there. You are down to, about what, 100-200 more damage, about 1/4 of a skill's hit?
I think you kind of forget though that that 1-200 more damage isn't overall. Thats per hit. And when you're demon sparking and capping at 5 attacks per second, that is 1000 more damage per second. That extra 1300 hp is eaten up in like what....1.23 seconds of auto attacking from a sin or a BM? Given lag and human reaction, you won't even react faster than 1.23 seconds in which that 1300 hp didn't even save you at all. You still died. But when YOU get the jump on someone, your less damage is going to give THEM more time to react. Do you get it? Pure dex is FAR superior to the vit build in all aspects.0 -
I think you kind of forget though that that 1-200 more damage isn't overall. Thats per hit. And when you're demon sparking and capping at 5 attacks per second, that is 1000 more damage per second. That extra 1300 hp is eaten up in like what....1.23 seconds of auto attacking from a sin or a BM? Given lag and human reaction, you won't even react faster than 1.23 seconds in which that 1300 hp didn't even save you at all. You still died. But when YOU get the jump on someone, your less damage is going to give THEM more time to react. Do you get it? Pure dex is FAR superior to the vit build in all aspects.
If I'm doing 5 APS, I'm not gonna just let it go on auto attack, I'm going to keep them stunned as well as use Rib Strike. You remember what that does right? 50% attack speed reduction, and if you really want to keep going, go Demon and turn that into 65%. That fist BM is going be down to 1.75 APS, so I'm quite sure that they won't be doing very much damage to me quickly for the next 30 seconds. The same goes with an Assassin, and if he is smart he would do the same to me, which puts us back to where we were, all on skill, unless, like I would, I happen to have Tidal protection on, allowing me a 50% chance to dodge any status effect. Yes, that 1300 HP is going to have saved me, especially if the Assassin attacking doesn't bother to start with a stun. So yes, Vit will be a good thing, as while I'm down to where they were in HP, they are even lower, and I just might have 285% more attack speed than them. However, lets assume I stick with Sage. I can Rib Strike him, and when he tries it on me, I put Shadow Escape on, and then immediately attack, dispelling the effect. Yes, even a Vit build can have the advantage over a full Dex.
Obviously, you either don't play an Assassin (or at the least don't know the skills), or you are a horrible one at that. Do a little more research into the skills and then come back so we may continue this discussion without any other problems.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »By the way, just thought I'd put in a note, I'm hybrid build. So I'm not really going to have that much Vit, but still enough to put me ahead of most full Dex in HP and ahead of Vit in damage, getting the best of both worlds.
Best of both worlds or jack of all trades? You can just as easily look at it from the other side and say you lack the survivability of a high vit build to make any difference and lack the damage of a full dex to pull off kills quickly.
It's the same argument with LA vs HA and AA. Is LA the best of both worlds with good defenses on both sides or is it just a jack of all trades not being able to tank either types of attacks well.0 -
Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »Best of both worlds or jack of all trades? You can just as easily look at it from the other side and say you lack the survivability of a high vit build to make any difference and lack the damage of a full dex to pull off kills quickly.
It's the same argument with LA vs HA and AA. Is LA the best of both worlds with good defenses on both sides or is it just a jack of all trades not being able to tank either types of attacks well.
Just as I can make the same argument as before, being that I only need 4 G12 Citrines to be on par with Vit in HP, as well as have 5 slots more than full Dex for anything I want. I'll have more damage than the Vit and I'll have more slots for stones than Dex, so I can just as well say I have the best of both worlds. A jack of all trades has a little bit of everything, never being proficient at either. I can be proficient at both as well as have advantages over each due to the system in place for this game. I do see your point though, and it is a good one. However, just as Vit and Dex are viable builds, so is hybrid, and it has its advantages as well.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.0 -
yay for the lvl 71 sin that locks catas in tw and doesnt auto attack with 5aps.0
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I wonder if thread starter even still reading these . . b:worried[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sorry i speak engrish b:chuckle
Nickname doesn't have anything to do with sailor but related to a folklore
Use search, it was your best friends to avoid many suffering in internet...0
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