seriously only 1-2% difference

kenlee · April 2010

i maybe not going back to heavy again but fox form demon skills do look better imo, was one of my reason to go demon too. maybe you dont want to spam fox wallop that often, of course crits count alot and also 3% crit more from melee mastery for regular attacks also count. the thing with genie, yes it can be replaced by faster attack speed but i think with no interval gear, demon crush vigor might help a bit

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There may be people actually impressed by tossing out a lot of numbers, but I can see right through it. Firstly, throwing genie skills into the mix isn't consistent given sages can do that too along with their chi skill. There is a bias to skew numbers that you've shown. Secondly, a sage HA veno needs to do nothing more than just do normal attacks and spark -- maybe throwing in an amp occasionally. This is consistent damage a demon veno cannot overcome spamming chi burning skills, regardless of how many arbitrary numbers of crits (completely random) get thrown out there. Attack speed does NOT favor demon because demon venos do NOT get an increase of attack rate (only melee-based classes like archers, bms, barbs, 'sins, and so forth), only channeling. When we're talking about a chi burning skill that needs to be casted intermittently and interrupting actual melee damage done this does not even anything out.

we are no clerics to have faster channeling, its only mp restore and more attack power

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · April 2010

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Attack speed favors demon because faster attack speed (from -interval gear) results in faster chi generation. Ignoring genie skills, the Sage using regular attacks at 1.25 atk/sec is generating 5 chi/sec. The Demon using Wallop is only generating 1 chi/sec. So the same increase in chi generation will benefit Demon more than Sage.

I have seen more than a handful of sage venos using -interval gear. I would have it on my veno as well (sage) if I weren't so close to getting my wizard to 100. The only possible benefit the demon would have is from channeling in their spark, but this can't be seen as much a factor given the sage version is constantly generating chi from normal attacks and doesn't need spells.

If you increase the attack speed to 1.67 atk/sec, the Sage is generating 6.67 chi/sec. This is a 33% increase over 5 chi/sec. This means the Sage fox can triple spark 33% more frequently. Add in the genie skill and it's at 9.16 chi/sec, a 22% increase in sparking frequency.

Demon OTOH goes from 1 chi/sec to 2.67 chi/sec. This is a massive 167% increase in the frequency at which they can triple spark. If you factor in the genie skill, they're at 5.17 chi/sec, which is a 48% increase.

Looking at comparative damage, the numbers I ran before at 1.25 atk/sec and with genie skill were:
Sage: (4.51*25 + 9.51*15) / 43 = 5.94
Demon: (4.01*71 + 10.51*15) / 89 = 4.97
Sage is doing 19.5% more damage from sparking than Demon.

Run the numbers again at 1.67 atk/sec and you get:
Sage: (4.51*18 + 9.51*15) / 36 = 6.22
Demon: (4.01*43 + 10.51*15) / 61 = 5.41
Sage is now doing only 15.0% more damage from sparking than Demon.

So like I said, Demon benefits more from faster attack speed.

Yet in your own numbers you suggest that sages spark nearly twice as fast, and then suggest that this evens out with demon crits. However, 3% crit is not even close to enough to make up for the 50% constant damage, better accuracy (without getting completely into the FF advantages), and quicker sparks. I'm also a lot more of a skeptic and prefer to actually see a demon veno outdamage me in fox. Magic-casting, demon obviously has an advantage over sage, much the same, there's no debate as this is seen regularly the same as sage venos outdmging by far demon venos in fox. Maybe next time I run a BH100 on her I'll have a demon veno try out the magic spamming and see who has done the most damage. Did it in BH79 but my tests weren't so vaguely analytical.

Kinda hard to even reply to the last poster because doesn't make much sense.

Solandri - Heavens Tear · April 2010

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yet in your own numbers you suggest that sages spark nearly twice as fast, and then suggest that this evens out with demon crits. However, 3% crit is not even close to enough to make up for the 50% constant damage, better accuracy (without getting completely into the FF advantages), and quicker sparks

Well the only reason Demon can't spark as often as Sage is because I'm factoring in them using Fox Wallop every 5 sec. 20% of the time, Fox Wallop gives a 100% crit rate, not 3%. If you re-read, that gives Demon an average ~18% damage increase (exact numbers will depend on the individual's base crit%), which pretty much balances out the increased Sage damage from Melee Mastery and spark rate.

Just for you, here are the numbers if both Demon and Sage have 227 str, are using regular attacks, no genie chi skills, triple sparking as often as possible, Sage using Master Li's (still trying to figure out if it's 1 sec or 2 sec, assumed it's 1 sec here):

Sage: (4.51*36 + 9.51*15) / 55 = 5.55
Demon: (4.01*45 + 10.51*15) / 63 = 5.37

5.55/5.37 = 1.033. So Sage has a 3% damage advantage. Which coincidentally balances out the 3% advantage Demon would get from Demon Melee Mastery's increased crit%. Maybe I was wrong and spamming Fox Wallop is not the best way for Demon to maximize melee damage outside of PvP.

I'm also a lot more of a skeptic and prefer to actually see a demon veno outdamage me in fox.

Unfortunately, due to the random nature of the Demon skills (20% chance for 100% armor reduction, 20% chance to critical for 5 sec, etc, higher crit% rate), you'd need a very large sample size to get an accurate average. It's easier to verify the individual effects (e.g. does Ironwood's 100% armor reduction land 20% of the time?) and simply calculate an average.

Magic-casting, demon obviously has an advantage over sage, much the same, there's no debate as this is seen regularly the same as sage venos outdmging by far demon venos in fox. Maybe next time I run a BH100 on her I'll have a demon veno try out the magic spamming and see who has done the most damage.

Hmm, I hadn't thought of Sage vs. Demon spells before because it's so dependent on which spells you decide to cast. What makes you say Demon outdamages Sage?

Did it in BH79 but my tests weren't so vaguely analytical.

I do try to run tests to validate the numbers I calculate for myself. I'm not as hardcore as Brael who made videos of his fights for later review, but I do try to remember min and max hits and verify that they're within my pre-calculated range. Obviously I can't run test numbers for Demon skills. But the base damage from the skills seems to be mostly the same for both Demon and Sage. So if the Demon effect descriptions are accurate (big maybe, I know), then the numbers should be right.

kenlee · April 2010

that extra 3% crit for outside fox wallop effect, on normal attacks.
if you say about others tossing numbers, how about you going random? 50% more costant damage, seriously? depends of gear and refines on weapon but that can be like 10% real damage not 50%. its not an increase of your total damage is weapon damage only and if you change your magic rings (or any ornaments with +atk) to might rings you already outdamage that sage veno with magic rings. of course sage can do the same but crafted gear (like OHT gear) can change the balance.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Hmm, I hadn't thought of Sage vs. Demon spells before because it's so dependent on which spells you decide to cast. What makes you say Demon outdamages Sage?

maybe its because of reuse/cooldowns and random debuff from skills but for sure sage spark favor sage caster better

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear · April 2010

I hate fox wallop and I never use it. It's a chi sink.

I don't make calculations like Solandri does but I've always thought the demon spark would make up for the lower damage boost from mastery. sage=500% on triple spark and demon=650%.

kenlee · April 2010

I dont want to start another thread so here is another thing that I was thinking about.

For HA fox to get max attack speed you need to have a build like this one (http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=65245b4ceab1f0a6), min str/dex/vit and rest to mag (of course counting that you get max stats on cape and so on). All builds will have +5 on armor and +10weapon. So... you are able to equip a lunar weapon and we choose sword because of physical atk. If anyone have a better idea please about this build just post your idea.

Physical Atk: ~7553
Attack rate: 2.22
Critical Hit: 15%

Accuracy: 1550
Evasion: 1244
so raw atk damage would be 7553 * 2.22 * 1.15 = 19282.8

I was thinking about a LA veno build (http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=fb142617e3fef026). There it is, with all stats alocated you are actually able to equip a Sinrabansho for example. Since the price to buy a twilight scepter is slighly less than lunar weapon and eldes are farmable I considered this weapon.

Physical Atk: ~6706.5
Attack rate: 2.22
Critical Hit: 26%

Accuracy: 4760
Evasion: 1326
so raw atk damage would be 6706.5 * 2.22 * 1.26 = 18759.42

Now the pro and cons of this build... its not far from HA build in damage, physical defence is lower but with better refines on ornamets it will be better. Anyway, its not the physical atk that kills barbs (for example at wurlord) its the magic damage so this build already has a decent one. Accuracy is like triple than HA and here we considered that all hits will hit (perfect accuracy) but LA build has a better chance to hit than HA.

Again, with the above LA build you can equip this weapon (equip -> durability 0 -> chance fox -> repair)
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=d80e18f3fccd98a0

Physical Atk: ~5546
Attack rate: 3.33
Critical Hit: 22%

Accuracy: 4760
Evasion: 1326
so raw atk damage would be 5546 * 3.33 * 1.22 = 22531.17

You can go extreme and change the LA build just to equip deicide
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=c4bc0ffe2e7eb970

Physical Atk: ~6000.5
Attack rate: 4
Critical Hit: 22%

Accuracy: 5404
Evasion: 1464
so raw atk damage would be 6000.5 * 4 * 1.22 = 29282.44
Now this build cant equip Sinrabansho, not even a lunar because is missing like 15 mag points. To equip the magic sword (same as HA) you have to come with a cheap solution like this (http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=d96a10764beb00f6) or get some better oht rings. Of course this sword is for magic attacks not melee like before, you can switch rings/deicide for that. Still good magic attacks too but now you have to spend money on 2 weapons

Quilue - Sanctuary · April 2010

^

wtb rings of eternal solitude

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver · April 2010

Okay.... REalized how badly messed up my last try on PWI calc was... So Ill try again b:surrender

This time the numbers should be correct. I mistakingly added the green points right to my point pool. My resolution made the small red +XX look like -XX wich I was thinking added up with the bonuses. The numbers dont change too much tho, unless youre a nitpicker b:chuckle

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=222b56b99fc05c60

As for my lvl 89(when I get there), with the gear I have managed to aquire(thanks to all the peeps buying my TT stuff, you made it possible b:kiss ) the sage vs non sage fox form gives about 1400 increase in def. It sounds good, but its an increase from 12k to 13.4k. Thats just 3% in damage decrease. As an example, a strong attack like Poles axe(if the damage dont count the debuff at hit, wich I think it actually does) its 30 less damage.

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=c64c11be852ba9db

To make an example I also set up what I hope to wear at lvl 92 with my planned stat distribution. Since melee mastery can be learned for sage/demon at this point I was curious to see the increase.

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=c962613b4c316ca9

The change is about 400-600 damage. Wther or not thats considered a nice or bad increase is up to taste. I like it, and Im still planning on going sage.

Oo_Rinoa_oO - Harshlands · May 2010

So so so so so sorry for necro(oh, well. JUST a month old)
but i cant stop telling this guy that he is WRONG. so so so so wrong.

kenlee wrote: »

1 more second for sage, 3 more seconds (50% chance) for demon fox
WTF? demon reduced cooldown.

a little more than demon but with cloud eruption genie skill you can get instant 2 sparks
gratz. your genie probably has 100vit, no other stat

and demon has 30% aoe amplify, now depends what do you want
OMG AoE AMP. I WANT THAT. wait... are you talking about DG? demon amp is 6second longer, not AoE

its good but i can use soulcleanse orb to remove debuffs. sage can use vacuity powder or so. both can use genies
gratz again. how much energy does your genie have?

probably purge and thats not a debuff, it has 5meters range and even in tw (the only place you use it) you can have ppl spread out except crystal
there ARE tons of BMs/Sins around cata puller to stun lock melees. AoEpurge FTW

none is stronger or both are strong enough
Lvl10 amp = 20% 20sec. Sage = 30% 20sec. Demon = 25% 26sec
sage IS stronger though demon surely gives more DPS in constant attack. but you know, ppl triple sparks and DG. which amp do you want?

the transfer spark thing gives you 25% chance to GAIN 1 spark when used on yourself instead of some1 else and spark won't be consumed other 75% of the time
demon can use it on itself too just to gain 1 spark. you use 1 spark and you can gain 2. use it on a cleric or tank that died can save you giving him/her 2 sparks instead of 1
oh, yes. but i tell you something. not so many (i would say none) is kind enough to tell you how many sparks they get everytime. Sage, not consuming spark, you know it worked. Demon, giving 2 sparks, NEVER tells you how many sparks they got.

50 chi every minutes, i get 2 sparks when genie has energy
50 chi every 30sec. you really dont know anyting. gratz again and again on your genie's energy

its useful in a squad, if you do solo TT's you rarely have a chance to do anything else than heals.. except lower lvls TT when you are higher lvl but then again its just 2-3 more minutes for demon
if you have to spam heal from begining, you are noob. lure, bramble rage, summon, soul degen while sending pets, spam heal. SOLVED

im not saying demon are bad (well, im sage) but you are WRONG. like... 90% of what you wrote is WRONGb:bye

XxJeniferxx - Lost City · May 2010

Lol I was wondering why you posted oh well. Ty all for info posted I still have time to decide but I'm really stuck in the middle now. But ya Ty all

Batman - Harshlands · May 2010

First I've never seen your lolname on my server and I play since the first day

WTF? demon reduced cooldown.
we are talking about stuns not skills, its not the only stun skill that we have

gratz. your genie probably has 100vit, no other stat
and I tought you need good str to get more chi. yours must be unique

OMG AoE AMP. I WANT THAT. wait... are you talking about DG? demon amp is 6second longer, not AoE
leard to read again. nova has 30% not demon amplify

gratz again. how much energy does your genie have?
so in order to use soulcleanse or vacuity powder you need to have god vit on genie. grats again dumbass. two of mines have 170 btw

there ARE tons of BMs/Sins around cata puller to stun lock melees. AoEpurge FTW
i havent said that its not usefull in TW, its the only useful place. btw i never saw your name in a tw guild

sage IS stronger though demon surely gives more DPS in constant attack. but you know, ppl triple sparks and DG. which amp do you want?
ask solandri who maid some calculation, difference is probably 1% between sage and demon, both are good

oh, yes. but i tell you something. not so many (i would say none) is kind enough to tell you how many sparks they get everytime. Sage, not consuming spark, you know it worked. Demon, giving 2 sparks, NEVER tells you how many sparks they got.
yes "ty for 2 sparks" i think i didnt see it. whats the point of this anyway? if they get 2 so be it.

50 chi every 30sec. you really dont know anyting. gratz again and again on your genie's energy
Master Li's Technique, cooldown 60 seconds. im not sage but i can still read.

if you have to spam heal from begining, you are noob. lure, bramble rage, summon, soul degen while sending pets, spam heal. SOLVED
go and do that solo at wurlord or 3-2/3-3

grats on your reading skills

Solandri - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Since it was brought up again, here's the average damage increase for the two Amps compared:

Sage Amp: (20*1.3 + 11.5*1.0)/31.5 = 1.1905 = 19.05%

Demon Amp: (25*1.25 + 6.5*1.0)/31.5 = 1.1984 = 19.84%

So Demon will yield slightly more damage if you're the only veno and applying Amp as often as possible. If there are two venos keeping Amp applied, then the Sage version is better.

Sage Amp: (20*1.3 + 11.5*1.2)/31.5 = 1.2635 = 26.35%

Demon Amp: (25*1.25 + 6.5*1.2)/31.5 = 1.2397 = 23.97%

SupaRoyalty - Lost City · May 2010

demon > sage forever.

XxJeniferxx - Lost City · May 2010

Ya i think i'm going to go demon, because i plan on being able to survive long enough for demon's chances to be worth it.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary · May 2010

I love that I made the choice to go demon. I only have 4 skills learned so far, but it's completely worth it.

Demon fox form allows me to run faster. It's actually better than i thought it would be, because you get the speed increase switching to fox form and human form. I can run at a constant speed of 9.6m per sec (don't have summer lvl 3 yet)
Demon ironwood, even though it has a 20% chance, that chance does proc alot. I probably see it proc once every 2-3 mobs.
Demon venomous scarab, resisting wood resistance allows me to do a bit more damage to the mob.
Demon fox wallop even with a 20% chanve like ironwood, the crits proc alot too. The 20 chi loss isn't even noticable since you gain it back by the time the mob dies.

seriously only 1-2% difference

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