seriously only 1-2% difference

XxJeniferxx - Lost City

Well I know i'm far away from going demon or sage, and since i've given up lvling to save money from cs pets it'll be even longer. But for the longest time i had been dead set on goin sage, initially for its fox form(which now i'm not sure about) and melee mastery. I'm a HA hybrid, so today on a pw calculator i put in my projected build for lvl 90 and the difference between sage and demon physical defence was 1-2% depending on if i wore full HA or mixed. So what i'm getting at is , is there any other reason's HA venos go sage instead of demon besides fox form? Because looking at it now i may go demon for the crits and speed boost, as well as a few other skills.

Not looking for a debate i just want your opinions, and why you chose what you chose. I am looking for HA hybrid veno opinions, but ne opionions would be great.

_Cristian_ - Lost City

fox form...that's the only reason why you were going sage. are you serious? look at the rest of the skills they just fken own compared to dark.


longer stun

lots of chi

better ironrock parasite (20% chance for something to even happen LOL i rather take stronger pdef break and 20 seconds of it over 20% chance to reduce pdef)

holy parasite nova only takes 1 spark half the time

that 1 speed skill (forgot what it's called on official server) clears all negative debuffs. a WR dragons you, use that and he will be like WTF

aoe debuff

stronger amp

the transfer spark thing gives you 25% chance to GAIN 1 spark when used on yourself instead of some1 else and spark won't be consumed other 75% of the time

higher dmg from spark

50 chi thing, it owns

20% max hp reduction from that 1 skill

i don't really know about fox skills because i only use purge, amp, and 20% hp reduction skills from fox tree

only thing i like from dark is fox form for running away from gank but on pwi you got genies so you can just holy path away, and the 30% wood defense debuff but it ain't that much

Solandri - Heavens Tear

XxJeniferxx - Lost City wrote: »

I'm a HA hybrid, so today on a pw calculator i put in my projected build for lvl 90 and the difference between sage and demon physical defence was 1-2% depending on if i wore full HA or mixed.

Keep in mind that the difference between 80% damage reduction and 82% damage reduction is actually a 10% difference in damage taken. If a mob would've done 500 damage, with 80% DR you take 100 damage. With 82%, you take 90 damage.

I do agree the defense difference isn't that great. And with interval gear, I think Demon's triple spark 650% melee increase (vs 500% for Sage) just about offsets Sage Melee Mastery. I would suggest basing your decision on which other skills you like, not a belief that the defense and melee damage is significantly better with Sage.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary

I would have to say the only skills i would miss from sage would be sage leech (100% chance) and sage soul degeneration (max hp decreased debuff).

Anything else IMO, demon overcomes on both the human (mage) and fox (mellee) tree.

kenlee

_Cristian_ - Lost City wrote: »

fox form...that's the only reason why you were going sage. are you serious? look at the rest of the skills they just fken own compared to dark.


longer stun
1 more second for sage, 3 more seconds (50% chance) for demon fox

lots of chi
a little more than demon but with cloud eruption genie skill you can get instant 2 sparks

better ironrock parasite (20% chance for something to even happen LOL i rather take stronger pdef break and 20 seconds of it over 20% chance to reduce pdef)
never heard of ironrock, probably ironwood. yes some venos get it only for pvp others that pve only dont learn the skill

holy parasite nova only takes 1 spark half the time
and demon has 30% aoe amplify, now depends what do you want

that 1 speed skill (forgot what it's called on official server) clears all negative debuffs. a WR dragons you, use that and he will be like WTF
its good but i can use soulcleanse orb to remove debuffs. sage can use vacuity powder or so. both can use genies

aoe debuff
probably purge and thats not a debuff, it has 5meters range and even in tw (the only place you use it) you can have ppl spread out except crystal

stronger amp
none is stronger or both are strong enough

the transfer spark thing gives you 25% chance to GAIN 1 spark when used on yourself instead of some1 else and spark won't be consumed other 75% of the time
demon can use it on itself too just to gain 1 spark. you use 1 spark and you can gain 2. use it on a cleric or tank that died can save you giving him/her 2 sparks instead of 1

higher dmg from spark


50 chi thing, it owns
50 chi every minutes, i get 2 sparks when genie has energy

20% max hp reduction from that 1 skill
its useful in a squad, if you do solo TT's you rarely have a chance to do anything else than heals.. except lower lvls TT when you are higher lvl but then again its just 2-3 more minutes for demon

i don't really know about fox skills because i only use purge, amp, and 20% hp reduction skills from fox tree
demon crush vigor for spark, demon stunning blow for stun, demon befuddling mist and soul segeneration are good in pvp

only thing i like from dark is fox form for running away from gank but on pwi you got genies so you can just holy path away, and the 30% wood defense debuff but it ain't that much
nature grace, metabolic boost, lucky scarab, noxious gas... all have lower if are demon, especially last two to increase dps in human form along with more crit

there are my answers in red. i just had to show you that no matter sage or demon none is worse

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Generally agreed that there's not much difference between the two paths.

kenlee wrote: »

50 chi every minutes, i get 2 sparks when genie has energy

The problem with the genie chi skills is that they take 130+ energy and require 12 or 14 affinity points. Unless your genie has >50 mag, using it puts your genie out of commission for the next 1-2 minutes. So it's a pretty huge opportunity cost. About the only place I can see it being beneficial on average is PvP, and City of Abominations (where nearly all debuffs do nothing).

its good but i can use soulcleanse orb to remove debuffs. sage can use vacuity powder or so. both can use genies

Soulcleanse orb duplicates the effect of Sage Summer Sprint. Vacuity powder gives 20 sec of movement debuff immunity, vs. 6 sec for Demon Summer Sprint. So being Sage and using vacuity powder is better than being Demon and using Soulcleanse orbs.

However, triple spark will also purify yourself. So it's not like Demon doesn't have a self-purify.

probably purge and thats not a debuff, it has 5meters range and even in tw (the only place you use it) you can have ppl spread out except crystal

Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of AOE purge either. The radius is small enough that your opponents need to be practically standing on top of each other (seems to be the same radius as Befuddling Mist). I haven't used my purge book yet because I'm not sure if the increased mana cost is worth it for PvE. But the skill is selling for 20-25 mil on AH so the PvP folks must really, really like it.

its useful in a squad, if you do solo TT's you rarely have a chance to do anything else than heals.. except lower lvls TT when you are higher lvl but then again its just 2-3 more minutes for demon

Solo, you can almost always squeeze Soul Degen off at the beginning of the fight as your herc is running towards the boss. My veno is heavy so I don't care if the boss hits me once or twice. But an arcane probably has a lot more channeling which should let them fire it off more quickly at the start, letting them fire it later and thus avoid being hit. Another way would be to send your herc in while healing, then switch it to follow to bring it back. Bosses can't melee your pet as it's moving. So use that time to squeeze in Soul Degen.

In grouped fights, it's 2-3 min less fight time. Solo, you're talking more like 10 min.

I'm actually finding it very useful against regular mobs in instances. Solo, its uses are obvious since it'll take you 30-60 sec to kill regular mobs. The time it saves off those can add up to a good 10-15 minutes shaved off clearing the instance. Grouped, you frequently kill stuff in less than 30 sec. So I alternate between Amp and Soul Degen, letting me reduce the kill time on all the mobs rather than just half. And everyone appreciates it on increased life mobs.

demon can use it on itself too just to gain 1 spark. you use 1 spark and you can gain 2. use it on a cleric or tank that died can save you giving him/her 2 sparks instead of 1

Used on yourself, the Demon and Sage versions of Lending Hand are almost exactly the same (Sage 25% to gain a spark vs 20% for Demon). Used on others the demon version can fill someone up faster. But the cooldown on it is 15 seconds so it's not like transferring an extra spark after someone has died is really saving you a lot of time. More importantly, you have to have at least 1 spark to use the skill, so the Sage version is less likely to drop you below this threshold. I give the edge to the Sage version for this reason, but just barely.

nature grace, metabolic boost, lucky scarab, noxious gas... all have lower if are demon, especially last two to increase dps in human form along with more crit

I really want to emphasize this for lucky scarab. Lucky's regular cooldown is 12 sec. Regular mobs will cast at 10 sec + casting time. With level 10 or Sage Lucky, you can only use it to interrupt if you get the timing just right on the first cast. If your first cast is a fraction of a second too late, you will be late for the next one. Even if you hit with the first one, if you're caught in the middle of casting just as Lucky recycles, you'll be late with it again. With the Demon version, you can use the cooldown timer to time when you cast, and have a second or two breathing room. If you're late with the first one, you just cast the second one a bit sooner to interrupt.

There aren't many situations where this will be handy (frogs in FB99, shoveals in lunar though I dunno if they're still there, maybe rangers in FB89). But in those cases it makes a huge, huge difference.

Yindra - Sanctuary

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I really want to emphasize this for lucky scarab. Lucky's regular cooldown is 12 sec. Regular mobs will cast at 10 sec + casting time. With level 10 or Sage Lucky, you can only use it to interrupt if you get the timing just right on the first cast. If your first cast is a fraction of a second too late, you will be late for the next one. Even if you hit with the first one, if you're caught in the middle of casting just as Lucky recycles, you'll be late with it again. With the Demon version, you can use the cooldown timer to time when you cast, and have a second or two breathing room. If you're late with the first one, you just cast the second one a bit sooner to interrupt.

I don't even understand half of this thread, and I have no clue what you are talking about. Nonetheless, you are talking about timing --- and last time I checked, Perfect World was still an MMO"RP"G. Which means you're dealing with unpredictable timing caused by "the internet" in general, as well as the current situation on the server.

It doesn't actually matter if you have some time to spare --- if you need to hit a spot, then the inability to predict spell timing is going to make it fail anyway.

kenlee

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Generally agreed that there's not much difference between the two paths.

The problem with the genie chi skills is that they take 130+ energy and require 12 or 14 affinity points. Unless your genie has >50 mag, using it puts your genie out of commission for the next 1-2 minutes. So it's a pretty huge opportunity cost. About the only place I can see it being beneficial on average is PvP, and City of Abominations (where nearly all debuffs do nothing).
well you have like 19 points at 9x so 12 points arent that much of a problem at this lvl. just enough vit for skill to use, rest in str and mag lkie 60 and 50. its good in fc too, i dont have landing hand to make my life easier so cloud eruption is good to have enough chi for everyone and also cast nova on groups

Soulcleanse orb duplicates the effect of Sage Summer Sprint. Vacuity powder gives 20 sec of movement debuff immunity, vs. 6 sec for Demon Summer Sprint. So being Sage and using vacuity powder is better than being Demon and using Soulcleanse orbs.

However, triple spark will also purify yourself. So it's not like Demon doesn't have a self-purify.
yes vacuity is better than clease orb tho... different lvl crafts (ppl with teritory can craft better herbs anyway). demon summer sprint can also replace fortify genie skill for using feral


Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of AOE purge either. The radius is small enough that your opponents need to be practically standing on top of each other (seems to be the same radius as Befuddling Mist). I haven't used my purge book yet because I'm not sure if the increased mana cost is worth it for PvE. But the skill is selling for 20-25 mil on AH so the PvP folks must really, really like it.
well besides crystal or spawning point, cata groups are somehow packed and you have your chance to aoe purge sometimes. if you ask any player in tw what they hate the most... it is purge from venos or bow so probably thats why is expensive


Solo, you can almost always squeeze Soul Degen off at the beginning of the fight as your herc is running towards the boss. My veno is heavy so I don't care if the boss hits me once or twice. But an arcane probably has a lot more channeling which should let them fire it off more quickly at the start, letting them fire it later and thus avoid being hit. Another way would be to send your herc in while healing, then switch it to follow to bring it back. Bosses can't melee your pet as it's moving. So use that time to squeeze in Soul Degen.

In grouped fights, it's 2-3 min less fight time. Solo, you're talking more like 10 min.
for some bosses is true, you can throw a skill before pet is going to fight. i think the longest fights are dark coluseast and maybe astralwalker. it takes like 30min to fight to kill that astral and im afraid that if someone is using sd might spawn first guard but not sure about that. well its like 15-30 min depends of bosses. yea in fb99 for example or in TT where some mobs have like 500-700k hp will make things easier since you have to fight more than 1-2 mobs. i think there was only one genie skill like that and only works under water but didnt checked all skills


I'm actually finding it very useful against regular mobs in instances. Solo, its uses are obvious since it'll take you 30-60 sec to kill regular mobs. The time it saves off those can add up to a good 10-15 minutes shaved off clearing the instance. Grouped, you frequently kill stuff in less than 30 sec. So I alternate between Amp and Soul Degen, letting me reduce the kill time on all the mobs rather than just half. And everyone appreciates it on increased life mobs.


Used on yourself, the Demon and Sage versions of Lending Hand are almost exactly the same (Sage 25% to gain a spark vs 20% for Demon). Used on others the demon version can fill someone up faster. But the cooldown on it is 15 seconds so it's not like transferring an extra spark after someone has died is really saving you a lot of time. More importantly, you have to have at least 1 spark to use the skill, so the Sage version is less likely to drop you below this threshold. I give the edge to the Sage version for this reason, but just barely.
well i was taking the very rare case when cleric die and need chi for blue ball when he is up or a tank that need to invoke... but you also have to rely on your chance to give 2. both have 15 sec reuse so i think both sage and demon venos will be happy to only have that


I really want to emphasize this for lucky scarab. Lucky's regular cooldown is 12 sec. Regular mobs will cast at 10 sec + casting time. With level 10 or Sage Lucky, you can only use it to interrupt if you get the timing just right on the first cast. If your first cast is a fraction of a second too late, you will be late for the next one. Even if you hit with the first one, if you're caught in the middle of casting just as Lucky recycles, you'll be late with it again. With the Demon version, you can use the cooldown timer to time when you cast, and have a second or two breathing room. If you're late with the first one, you just cast the second one a bit sooner to interrupt.
well too bad it doesnt work on bosses coz bosses have like 10 sec on their skills too. other mobs tend to run again after stun so really its not that useful for all mobs but for increasing general dps

There aren't many situations where this will be handy (frogs in FB99, shoveals in lunar though I dunno if they're still there, maybe rangers in FB89). But in those cases it makes a huge, huge difference.

..........

Solandri - Heavens Tear

kenlee wrote: »

well you have like 19 points at 9x so 12 points arent that much of a problem at this lvl. just enough vit for skill to use, rest in str and mag lkie 60 and 50.

12 points doesn't seem like much. But I put together a spreadsheet of the affinity requirements of my favorite skills. e.g. Cloud Eruption + Tree of Protection + Extreme Poison = 20 affinity points. Either of the chi skills increases the affinity requirement to 19-21 points for most combinations of what I consider staple skills. Your genie has to be level 90 to have 19 points, and level 100 to have 21 points. So for a genie you're building up as you level, planning to add either chi skill means gimping its selection of possible skills for some 40 levels. You're really better off leveling up a separate genie just for the chi skills.

for some bosses is true, you can throw a skill before pet is going to fight. i think the longest fights are dark coluseast and maybe astralwalker.

Once you get the hang of it, it's not that hard. I can frequently get both SD and Amp in at the start of a fight.

it takes like 30min to fight to kill that astral and im afraid that if someone is using sd might spawn first guard but not sure about that.

Astral's adds spawn at 90%, 60%, and 30% hp. So yeah, the 20% hp debuff will cause the first round of adds to spawn 30 sec after you apply it. Same goes for Belial.

i think there was only one genie skill like that and only works under water but didnt checked all skills

Ice Blast, but that was badly nerfed. The % hp debuff used to increase with level, so you could reach about 13% hp debuff pretty reasonably by level 10. Now the % debuff is a fixed so I don't think you can reach more than about 7% realistically. It works outside of water though, so can be handy if you don't have Sage SD or an archer STA.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ice Blast, but that was badly nerfed. The % hp debuff used to increase with level, so you could reach about 13% hp debuff pretty reasonably by level 10. Now the % debuff is a fixed so I don't think you can reach more than about 7% realistically. It works outside of water though, so can be handy if you don't have Sage SD or an archer STA.

But it requires so much stamina that your genie would have to be pretty much pure vita to be able to use the skill at level 10.... Even at level one you have to dump a considerable amount of vita into the genie just to be able to get 3% hp decrease.

Now, I do have a question, Does poisonous swarm (the 7 wood affinity skill), ever gets to the point where its worth it? When I tried it while back, at level 2 it was reducing the target HP by around 100 hp......

kenlee

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

12 points doesn't seem like much. But I put together a spreadsheet of the affinity requirements of my favorite skills. e.g. Cloud Eruption + Tree of Protection + Extreme Poison = 20 affinity points. Either of the chi skills increases the affinity requirement to 19-21 points for most combinations of what I consider staple skills. Your genie has to be level 90 to have 19 points, and level 100 to have 21 points. So for a genie you're building up as you level, planning to add either chi skill means gimping its selection of possible skills for some 40 levels. You're really better off leveling up a separate genie just for the chi skills.

i do have more genies tho, for pve and pvp too... thats where all the sp goes
i had tree on first and second genie and i found out that i rarely use it so removed, holy path was good untill i got my fox form. for fc i like chi skill and tagling mire and you can learn bramble rage too on a genie like that but on str genie doesnt do much... but any aoe is useful espeacilly in rebirth. other skills that i like is occult ice and etreme poison but i dont use them on pve genie

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=3115258b19efe345 (finally figured this thing out)

This is my current build,(some of the + stas looks odd, but I just didnt bother splitting up 13 STR into 3 smaller pieces) and only with fox form and melee mastery applied. Ading Sage to Melee mastery grantz quite a nice boost in my eyes, seeing how the attack isnt all that great. 500 more adds up quite a bit. And at higher levels I think it will matter even more(cant get the sage yet anyway.) Sage Fox form did dissapoint a bit, but still grantz some bonus, even tho with Sage buffs the increase is a measly 3k, wicth dont look like a big difference. Unbuffed the change is even smaller.

I will still go sage, mostly because the only skill I care about in Demon is Fox wallop. Other than that I mostly prefer sage(PvE Veno btw).

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear

every 10 lucky points = 1 extra affinity point. a 70-79 LP genie at lvl100 has 28 affinity points.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

every 10 lucky points = 1 extra affinity point. a 70-79 LP genie at lvl100 has 28 affinity points.

I wish that were the case, but no. Your genie starts with 1 affinity point and gets 1 extra affinity point every 5 levels. There is no bonus for lucky points. My genie is 70/90, and has 19 affinity points.

Holy Path, Earthquake, Second Wind, Tree, Fortify, Blinding Sand, Extreme Poison, and Tangling Mire can all be acquired with 13 affinity points (level 60).

You can add Alpha Male for 15 affinity points (level 70).

Absolute Domain bumps it up to 17 affinity points (level 80).

But adding Cloud Eruption (or Chi Siphon if you skip Absolute Domain) to the mix puts you at 21 affinity points (level 100). If you drop Alpha Male Fortify (does Absolute Domain work with Feral Concentration?), you can do it with 20 affinity points.

tweakz

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

does Absolute Domain work with Feral Concentration

Yes, I think better than the other skill that maybe used to work?

kenlee

why would you use domain and feral after that? domain is a good skill itself, no need to negate its effect with other skill plus fortify (lvl1 for feral) takes less than double energy of what domain use. i guess its just a matter of preferences. there are also lvl 45 apo orbs that makes you immune to damage but stun you so fortify or demon summer sprint will work

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=3115258b19efe345 (finally figured this thing out)

its just me or you have like 133 of missing points?

and yes its 19 points on my highest genie sadly... no matter LP

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I wish that were the case, but no. Your genie starts with 1 affinity point and gets 1 extra affinity point every 5 levels. There is no bonus for lucky points. My genie is 70/90, and has 19 affinity points.

Holy Path, Earthquake, Second Wind, Tree, Fortify, Blinding Sand, Extreme Poison, and Tangling Mire can all be acquired with 13 affinity points (level 60).

You can add Alpha Male for 15 affinity points (level 70).

Absolute Domain bumps it up to 17 affinity points (level 80).

But adding Cloud Eruption (or Chi Siphon if you skip Absolute Domain) to the mix puts you at 21 affinity points (level 100). If you drop Alpha Male Fortify (does Absolute Domain work with Feral Concentration?), you can do it with 20 affinity points.

you're right. i've just cheked it. now i'm confused... i made a 50/50 longevity months ago and I'm still quite sure it would get 2 affinities every 10 levels.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

kenlee wrote: »

why would you use domain and feral after that? domain is a good skill itself, no need to negate its effect with other skill plus fortify (lvl1 for feral) takes less than double energy of what domain use. i guess its just a matter of preferences. there are also lvl 45 apo orbs that makes you immune to damage but stun you so fortify or demon summer sprint will work

Fortify and Alpha Male require 5 wood affinity, which is the highest of the skills I listed. Absolute Domain only requires 4. If you can skip Alpha Male, and replace Fortify with Absolute Domain, then it'll let you add Cloud Eruption to those skills with just 20 affinity points. Level 95 instead of level 100, which is a huge, huge gap of 5 levels.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver

kenlee wrote: »

its just me or you have like 133 of missing points?

If you look at the stats on the gear, youll see that the stats fits. 69 Str, 13 vit and so on..

Gasoline - Lost City

XxJeniferxx - Lost City wrote: »

Well I know i'm far away from going demon or sage, and since i've given up lvling to save money from cs pets it'll be even longer. But for the longest time i had been dead set on goin sage, initially for its fox form(which now i'm not sure about) and melee mastery. I'm a HA hybrid, so today on a pw calculator i put in my projected build for lvl 90 and the difference between sage and demon physical defence was 1-2% depending on if i wore full HA or mixed. So what i'm getting at is , is there any other reason's HA venos go sage instead of demon besides fox form? Because looking at it now i may go demon for the crits and speed boost, as well as a few other skills.

Not looking for a debate i just want your opinions, and why you chose what you chose. I am looking for HA hybrid veno opinions, but ne opionions would be great.

You dont really go sage for the fox form, you go demon for the fox form.

The extra phy def is not that noticeable.

Reason why venos go sage is: 55% amp, aoe-purge, summer sprint will purify, longer stun, higher base dmg, better triple spark, 20% Sharp tooth and also Ironwood scarab is better imo - Demon one never procs.

Full magic build sage veno that amps you and than triple spark, its rather scary, like being attacked by a wizard with crazy channeling b:shocked

But as heavy you benefit just as much from the higher base dmg since you most likely have minimum magic.

The chi you gain as sage is not that big of an argument anymore however since everyone uses cloud eruption on genie that gives 1 spark +

I guess that goes for demon in fox form to, everyone can spam holy path.

I think sage venos are slightly better at doing solo stuff in pve. You will amp for more dmg, can always have the boss 40% armor broke and do 20% ST at start. The extra chi you get allows you to triple spark more to regain mana if you dont wanna waste pots lol.

kenlee

do you have sage amplify learned coz im pretty sure its 30% not 55% amplify
and you end up getting mana more often as demon because of cooldowns

Maiira - Sanctuary

its so fun to watch people argue about stuff that is dependent on someones playstyle. personally i went demon for
summer sprint (so i wouldnt waste time collecting herbs or waste money on apoth from catshops when i could be making money instead) i use it followed by feral to resist ferals stun. whereas for how how i play and what i do you cant use sage to remove stuns if your already stunned cause you cant use it.

i went demon for ironwood cause of how i play. i would rather have them get 0 pdef 20% chance and play a char that can survive long enough for it to work cause then pretty much any pet i use will deal massive damage even to barbs. 40% of high lvl HA players, some bm's and barbs i know have almost 20k pdef, so reduce to 12k? or a chance to reduce to 0? used on arcane players who already have low pdef a 40% drop isnt as noticable but having 0 completly to me is better cause of my style.

demon fox whallop, spark in fox use fox whalop, though small success rate, switching to human can hit with 3 skills in that time all crits.

skills that stun, sage gets lucky lasting 1 extra second, but demon stunning blow now has chance to stun, frost scarab has chance to freeze, lucky has shorter cooldown to make up for the extra second that sage gets.

ill say it again lol. its all based on playstyle. my veno lives a long time in fights specially in pvp so i can survive long enough for all these smaller % to pull off in my combos. once i hit 99 and get demon nova learned ill be able to reach 96% increase in damage with my combo. and a chance of crits.

all based on how you play. and i know some1 is going to rely to this and tell me how much of a fail i am and i dont care, if ur on sanctuary with half-decent gear come find me.

Isala - Sanctuary

Maiira - Sanctuary wrote: »

its so fun to watch people argue about stuff that is dependent on someones playstyle. personally i went demon for
summer sprint (so i wouldnt waste time collecting herbs or waste money on apoth from catshops when i could be making money instead) i use it followed by feral to resist ferals stun. whereas for how how i play and what i do you cant use sage to remove stuns if your already stunned cause you cant use it.

i went demon for ironwood cause of how i play. i would rather have them get 0 pdef 20% chance and play a char that can survive long enough for it to work cause then pretty much any pet i use will deal massive damage even to barbs. 40% of high lvl HA players, some bm's and barbs i know have almost 20k pdef, so reduce to 12k? or a chance to reduce to 0? used on arcane players who already have low pdef a 40% drop isnt as noticable but having 0 completly to me is better cause of my style.

demon fox whallop, spark in fox use fox whalop, though small success rate, switching to human can hit with 3 skills in that time all crits.

skills that stun, sage gets lucky lasting 1 extra second, but demon stunning blow now has chance to stun, frost scarab has chance to freeze, lucky has shorter cooldown to make up for the extra second that sage gets.

ill say it again lol. its all based on playstyle. my veno lives a long time in fights specially in pvp so i can survive long enough for all these smaller % to pull off in my combos. once i hit 99 and get demon nova learned ill be able to reach 96% increase in damage with my combo. and a chance of crits.

all based on how you play. and i know some1 is going to rely to this and tell me how much of a fail i am and i dont care, if ur on sanctuary with half-decent gear come find me.

Agreed completely. I'm Sage, due to my playstyle, and my GF is going Demon, due to hers. So I honestly don't see the point in arguing which is "Better" when we all play differently.

Gasoline - Lost City

kenlee wrote: »

do you have sage amplify learned coz im pretty sure its 30% not 55% amplify
and you end up getting mana more often as demon because of cooldowns

Im demon myself and have demon amp. But sage venos in my faction asked GM and sent tickets to confirm whether sage amp was 55% or 30%. They where both told after a couple of mails back and forth that sage gives 55% amp >.<

However im not sure we can trust GM/Customer about in game content b:chuckle

I would be rather pleased if it actually was only 30%, but thats not what GM said about the skill.

Maiira - Sanctuary

theres alot of ambiguity as well as alot of errors regarding skill descriptions regarding sage/demon. and those descriptions are the ones the gm's are reading from. i had a gm give me the stats for demon purge. then after i talked to a friend in game who has it was wtf.

description says reduces cooldown BY 25 seconds. so it should have a 5 second cooldown lol. but instead it reduces it TO 25 seconds. how **** is that. just as an example.


find players in game who already have and use the skills your wondering about. they can give you a better stat for what it does cause 55% compared to 30% is a big difference and they should be able to tell which of those it is.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

You go sage for HA because of melee mastery even more than fox form, though fox form is the perfect stack with melee mastery. The demon version cannot keep up. If you find you want to hit in fox and stick your nose in there, go sage. If you're going to stick to being caster only (with only a few exceptions where you kinda have to hit in fox like Mountain's Finger), then the choice between demon and sage becomes a bit tougher and should be decided more upon which caster based skill bonuses you prefer.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Gasoline - Lost City wrote: »

Im demon myself and have demon amp. But sage venos in my faction asked GM and sent tickets to confirm whether sage amp was 55% or 30%. They where both told after a couple of mails back and forth that sage gives 55% amp >.<

Just tested it. No weapon equipped, in fox form, I hit for 537. Amp and I hit the same mob for 698, which is 1.2998x more. I'd say that's 30%.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You go sage for HA because of melee mastery even more than fox form, though fox form is the perfect stack with melee mastery. The demon version cannot keep up. If you find you want to hit in fox and stick your nose in there, go sage.

Between Demon triple spark having a bigger melee bonus, and Demon Fox Wallop having a chance to make all your hits critical for 5 sec, I don't think there's a significant melee damage difference between Sage and Demon. Sage is clearly easier. Just target and attack; spark when you can. With Demon you have to spam Fox Wallop until the crit thing lands, then you can do regular melee. But overall, the calcs I've done don't show a large difference.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Just tested it. No weapon equipped, in fox form, I hit for 537. Amp and I hit the same mob for 698, which is 1.2998x more. I'd say that's 30%.


Between Demon triple spark having a bigger melee bonus, and Demon Fox Wallop having a chance to make all your hits critical for 5 sec, I don't think there's a significant melee damage difference between Sage and Demon. Sage is clearly easier. Just target and attack; spark when you can. With Demon you have to spam Fox Wallop until the crit thing lands, then you can do regular melee. But overall, the calcs I've done don't show a large difference.

There is a significant enough difference that sage is far better with melee mastery than relying on a 20% chance to get crits for 5 seconds, plus a cooldown period, plus channeling, plus casting, opposed to the 1.3+ AR. The only way is if both have 150% damage with melee mastery, and that's not the case. Sage is 200%, Demon is 150%. Constant damage, not a percentage of hitting, and of course the wonderful free chi which means more sparks. Sage FF accuracy is far better (esp if using accuracy rings though it's not necessary at levels where HA is viable), which means less misses. Crits are easily made up with crit gear, and I crit often enough already. A demon veno in FF stands no chance to outdmg me by this method. Theory vs practice.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There is a significant enough difference that sage is far better with melee mastery than relying on a 20% chance to get crits for 5 seconds, plus a cooldown period, plus channeling, plus casting, opposed to the 1.3+ AR.

I took all that into account. Factoring channel + cast time, Sage/Demon Fox Wallop does 93% the DPS of my regular attacks. So if the Demon only fires Wallop every 5 sec, she's doing 98.3% the DPS of just regular melee.

Now figure that 20% of the time Demon Fox Wallop gives the 2x crits and Demon's DPS jumps to 118% that of Sage.

The only way is if both have 150% damage with melee mastery, and that's not the case. Sage is 200%, Demon is 150%. Constant damage, not a percentage of hitting,

The difference is not as big as you'd think. The only build which takes fox melee damage seriously is heavy, and by level 90 you'll have at least 227 str as a heavy. So the attack multipliers are:

Sage: 1 + 227/150 (str) + 2.0 (melee mastery) = 4.51
Demon: 1 + 227/150 (str) + 1.5 (melee mastery) = 4.01

So 200% vs 150% melee mastery is only 12.5% more base damage than Demon. Now look at what happens when you triple spark.

Sage: 1 + 227/150 (str) + 2.0 (melee mastery) + 5.0 (triple spark) = 9.51
Demon: 1 + 227/150 (str) + 1.5 (melee mastery) + 6.5 (triple spark) = 10.51

So that's a 10.5% advantage for Demon

Course Fox Wallop costs chi, which reduces the rate at which Demon can use triple spark. OTOH, figure you have a genie with a chi skill giving 1.5 sparks every 60 sec, or 2.5 chi/sec. If you're attacking at the base 1.25 atk/sec, you gain 5 chi/sec.

Sage gets 7.5 chi/sec, so hits 300 chi in 40 sec, so can triple spark every 43 sec. Our Demon is spending 20 chi every 5 sec for Fox Wallop, so only gains a net 3.5 chi every sec. So Demon needs 86 sec to build up 3 sparks, and so can triple spark every 89 sec. Average DPS over those intervals is then:

Sage: (4.51*25 + 9.51*15) / 43 = 5.94
Demon: (4.01*71 + 10.51*15) / 89 = 4.97

So Sage has a 5.94 / 4.97 = 19.5% damage advantage from melee mastery and sparks, Demon has a ~18% damage advantage from criticals. The two pretty much cancel out. There's enough variability between builds in str (which favors demon), attack speed (which favors demon), and genie build (being able to use other genie skills favors sage), so I wouldn't say one is better or worse than the other. Overall I don't think there's a significant melee damage difference between Sage and Demon. Sage just requires less busywork and is more consistent.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I took all that into account. Factoring channel + cast time, Sage/Demon Fox Wallop does 93% the DPS of my regular attacks. So if the Demon only fires Wallop every 5 sec, she's doing 98.3% the DPS of just regular melee.

Now figure that 20% of the time Demon Fox Wallop gives the 2x crits and Demon's DPS jumps to 118% that of Sage.

The difference is not as big as you'd think. The only build which takes fox melee damage seriously is heavy, and by level 90 you'll have at least 227 str as a heavy. So the attack multipliers are:

Sage: 1 + 227/150 (str) + 2.0 (melee mastery) = 4.51
Demon: 1 + 227/150 (str) + 1.5 (melee mastery) = 4.01

So 200% vs 150% melee mastery is only 12.5% more base damage than Demon. Now look at what happens when you triple spark.

Sage: 1 + 227/150 (str) + 2.0 (melee mastery) + 5.0 (triple spark) = 9.51
Demon: 1 + 227/150 (str) + 1.5 (melee mastery) + 6.5 (triple spark) = 10.51

So that's a 10.5% advantage for Demon

Course Fox Wallop costs chi, which reduces the rate at which Demon can use triple spark. OTOH, figure you have a genie with a chi skill giving 1.5 sparks every 60 sec, or 2.5 chi/sec. If you're attacking at the base 1.25 atk/sec, you gain 5 chi/sec.

Sage gets 7.5 chi/sec, so hits 300 chi in 40 sec, so can triple spark every 43 sec. Our Demon is spending 20 chi every 5 sec for Fox Wallop, so only gains a net 3.5 chi every sec. So Demon needs 86 sec to build up 3 sparks, and so can triple spark every 89 sec. Average DPS over those intervals is then:

Sage: (4.51*25 + 9.51*15) / 43 = 5.94
Demon: (4.01*71 + 10.51*15) / 89 = 4.97

So Sage has a 5.94 / 4.97 = 19.5% damage advantage from melee mastery and sparks, Demon has a ~18% damage advantage from criticals. The two pretty much cancel out. There's enough variability between builds in str (which favors demon), attack speed (which favors demon), and genie build (being able to use other genie skills favors sage), so I wouldn't say one is better or worse than the other. Overall I don't think there's a significant melee damage difference between Sage and Demon. Sage just requires less busywork and is more consistent.

There may be people actually impressed by tossing out a lot of numbers, but I can see right through it. Firstly, throwing genie skills into the mix isn't consistent given sages can do that too along with their chi skill. There is a bias to skew numbers that you've shown. Secondly, a sage HA veno needs to do nothing more than just do normal attacks and spark -- maybe throwing in an amp occasionally. This is consistent damage a demon veno cannot overcome spamming chi burning skills, regardless of how many arbitrary numbers of crits (completely random) get thrown out there. Attack speed does NOT favor demon because demon venos do NOT get an increase of attack rate (only melee-based classes like archers, bms, barbs, 'sins, and so forth), only channeling. When we're talking about a chi burning skill that needs to be casted intermittently and interrupting actual melee damage done this does not even anything out.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Let me start by stating: My heavy fox veno is Sage, and I'm perfectly happy with Sage.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There may be people actually impressed by tossing out a lot of numbers, but I can see right through it.

I am not tossing out lots of numbers to impress people. I show all my calculations so others can see how I arrived at the numbers, point out mistakes, and make or suggest corrections or changes. I have been wrong before many times in the past, and I will be wrong again many times in the future.

Firstly, throwing genie skills into the mix isn't consistent given sages can do that too along with their chi skill. There is a bias to skew numbers that you've shown.

The genie chi skill is a simple and obvious solution to a major weakness of the Demon veno. To ignore it would be like ignoring the ability of Arcane venos to shard with garnets and claim Arcane builds have hopelessly weak pdef.

And to be consistent, I did include its effect for both sage and demon.

Secondly, a sage HA veno needs to do nothing more than just do normal attacks and spark -- maybe throwing in an amp occasionally. This is consistent damage a demon veno cannot overcome spamming chi burning skills, regardless of how many arbitrary numbers of crits (completely random) get thrown out there.

Agreed. And I believe I stated as much in my first comment. Ease of play wasn't the issue under contention here. Damage output was.

Attack speed does NOT favor demon because demon venos do NOT get an increase of attack rate (only melee-based classes like archers, bms, barbs, 'sins, and so forth), only channeling. When we're talking about a chi burning skill that needs to be casted intermittently and interrupting actual melee damage done this does not even anything out.

Attack speed favors demon because faster attack speed (from -interval gear) results in faster chi generation. Ignoring genie skills, the Sage using regular attacks at 1.25 atk/sec is generating 5 chi/sec. The Demon using Wallop is only generating 1 chi/sec. So the same increase in chi generation will benefit Demon more than Sage.

If you increase the attack speed to 1.67 atk/sec, the Sage is generating 6.67 chi/sec. This is a 33% increase over 5 chi/sec. This means the Sage fox can triple spark 33% more frequently. Add in the genie skill and it's at 9.16 chi/sec, a 22% increase in sparking frequency.

Demon OTOH goes from 1 chi/sec to 2.67 chi/sec. This is a massive 167% increase in the frequency at which they can triple spark. If you factor in the genie skill, they're at 5.17 chi/sec, which is a 48% increase.

Looking at comparative damage, the numbers I ran before at 1.25 atk/sec and with genie skill were:
Sage: (4.51*25 + 9.51*15) / 43 = 5.94
Demon: (4.01*71 + 10.51*15) / 89 = 4.97
Sage is doing 19.5% more damage from sparking than Demon.

Run the numbers again at 1.67 atk/sec and you get:
Sage: (4.51*18 + 9.51*15) / 36 = 6.22
Demon: (4.01*43 + 10.51*15) / 61 = 5.41
Sage is now doing only 15.0% more damage from sparking than Demon.

So like I said, Demon benefits more from faster attack speed.