Economist's View of 20% less DQ
Feruta - Heavens Tear
Posts: 120 Arc User
I think the devs are making an honest attempt to decrease inflation not gouge your pocketbooks. I will explain below.
First, lowering the price of DQ drops will decrease the aggregate supply of money in the game's marketplace, which will in turn increase the number of people who buy gold in an attempt to sell it.
This means that more gold sellers will enter the market, which will shift the supply curve for gold to the right.
As you can see by the graph, the equilibrium price of gold will decrease while the equilibrium quantity will increase.
The end result of all of this will be slight deflation, if all goes according to what I believe they are planning.
I don't necessarily believe this is the best way to solve the situation, but it does show that they are making an attempt, whether it will work or not, remains to be seen.
Just my 2 cents.
First, lowering the price of DQ drops will decrease the aggregate supply of money in the game's marketplace, which will in turn increase the number of people who buy gold in an attempt to sell it.
This means that more gold sellers will enter the market, which will shift the supply curve for gold to the right.
As you can see by the graph, the equilibrium price of gold will decrease while the equilibrium quantity will increase.
The end result of all of this will be slight deflation, if all goes according to what I believe they are planning.
I don't necessarily believe this is the best way to solve the situation, but it does show that they are making an attempt, whether it will work or not, remains to be seen.
Just my 2 cents.
Post edited by Feruta - Heavens Tear on
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Comments
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*brain freeze*
Guess you're right but there are ways to do it other than this... example: remove the tokens of doom.WTB> -12% channeling BELT or RING pm me with link or mail me ingame HT server, ty.0 -
So basically they're forcing us to buy Zen to make any money, is that what you're saying? Kinda why most of the playerbase is ticked off atm....... Probably 90% of the player base never buys zen cept to get things for their own personal use... like the aerogear they'll use from day 1 to the end, inventory stones... etc etc0
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small problem DQs make an extremely small portion of the money for those buying large quantities of gold, packs inject so much money into the economy is the KEY problem
also the point that they are trying to make more people buy gold, they are making it harder for the low lvl players, which screws up the player base, which causes inflation
:Packs are statistically a profit until gold reaches higher price due to the chance to get best luck and other stuff, thats the key issue- this is what has driven a large part of inflation of gold for past months, not some people farming DQs0 -
Feruta - Heavens Tear wrote: »I think the devs are making an honest attempt to decrease inflation not gouge your pocketbooks. I will explain below.
First, lowering the price of DQ drops will decrease the aggregate supply of money in the game's marketplace, which will in turn increase the number of people who buy gold in an attempt to sell it. From the history or "events" (ie sales) and patches since last september the end gole seems to be here "increase the number of people who buy gold"
This means that more gold sellers will enter the market, which will shift the supply curve for gold to the right.
As you can see by the graph, the equilibrium price of gold will decrease while the equilibrium quantity will increase.
The end result of all of this will be slight deflation, if all goes according to what I believe they are planning. Not here
Just my 2 cents.
did you factor in the enormous amount of money influx from TW and Best tokens?
This wont really benefit anyone other then the company anyway. if prices deflate it is because theree is less money in the system. people spend less money to buy the same number lower priced items. It evens out. the only people ingame that benefit are those who get coin from the 2 huge coin influxes i mentioned. they get the same money and the price is lowered.
my 2 cents[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
so the people from "leeman brothers" work for pwe now? b:shutupi am waiting for you my little flagcarriers b:kiss0
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you say lowering prices of DQ items will cause a shift , and deflatin in game. i say your wrong. not all of us want items in the CS. not all of of need gold, we don't buy it. we don't charge it. i must admit i have charged my share of money to buy items. but now i'm to the point where i look at the new stuff say Ohhhh pretty and close the CS. i need money to buy TT gear and weapons, you don't need gold for that, you need in game coins. i'm dang well not gonna charge zen to sell gold so i can have coin. not gonna hapen! i want my DQ items back to their regualr prices so i can earn my money the old fashion way FARMING and GRINDINNG. if i can grind out a 100k and hour good for me, but now to get that same 100k now i'm gonna have to farm close to two hours how is that fair?0
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PWE doesn't doesn't even begin to approach the types of schemes those people cook up.Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »so the people from "leeman brothers" work for pwe now? b:shutup0 -
lol... nice job of pulling a graph out of a text book. maybe you should mention that the graph only works in a PERFECT MARKET. considering even the real world can not funcion on a perfect market setting... pwi is NO WHERE near it. the said graph might as well be a dog **** on the side of the road.
now on a more realistic note. anyone whose level is worth something (on average) generate about half a percent of their income from dq drops (personally dq consists of about 0.1% of my income). shaving 20% off of 0.5% is not going to affect anyone... as you only decrease their income by 0.1%... you really think they'll notice? the lower of prices can only hurt low/mid levels... where dq actually represent almost 100% of their in game income.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
^ QFT
The only people it effect are the lower levels starting out and will hurt them in the long run. They'll never catch up be able to buy good gear or afford skills unless they..............wait for it..........wait for it...........charge Zen. Brilliant tactic PWI. Brilliant0 -
Feruta - Heavens Tear wrote: »I think the devs are making an honest attempt to decrease inflation not gouge your pocketbooks. I will explain below.
First, lowering the price of DQ drops will decrease the aggregate supply of money in the game's marketplace, which will in turn increase the number of people who buy gold in an attempt to sell it.
This means that more gold sellers will enter the market, which will shift the supply curve for gold to the right.
As you can see by the graph, the equilibrium price of gold will decrease while the equilibrium quantity will increase.
The end result of all of this will be slight deflation, if all goes according to what I believe they are planning.
I don't necessarily believe this is the best way to solve the situation, but it does show that they are making an attempt, whether it will work or not, remains to be seen.
Just my 2 cents.
you forgot to factor in the amount of people quitting. would you rather make $5 from 5000 people consistantly or $20 from 200 people who only spend once? isn't it better business sense to make less money from more people for a long period of time than a quick burst of money and then people quit? i didnt attend any business school but it seems logical to me if you plan on having a game open for awhile. now if you were planning on closing a game... then i totally understand what is going on here.0 -
This is the kind of economics I learned in some lousy high school course...hardly qualifies as economics.
These graphs don't apply to PWI because unlike the real world, money comes from nowhere.
Just like the 2nd law of thermodynamics doesn't apply to the Earth; Its an OPEN system.The chillum is sometimes referred to as a chalice, based on a quote from the Biblical book of Deuteronomy. Thanks and praises are offered to Jah before smoking the chillum.0 -
How much economics have you taken? You've graphed the supply response which would be, at most, second order and likely dominated by the income effect (fewer people selling gold because they have reacted to the increased difficulty of playing without real life cash by... not playing). You did not, oddly, graph the initial demand effect. Prices will go down because any people who were living off grind income and buying some gold with that will now have a higher tax on their labor.
The economics graphs that actually would be relevant to this discussion are derived from labor markets and income dispersion (or "wealth inequality" depending on your political leaning). The real problem in this game's economy is not the overall amount of coins. It is the concentration of coins in the hands of a subset of players. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer from this change. As others have pointed out, (with only a bit of overgeneralizing) this will not change the prices of high-end goods as those are driven by the demand of the wealthy subset of players who are generally no longer reliant on drops to fund their play for one reason or another. Most other goods that are traded in game have prices dictated by hard-wired prices of alternative sources (and I didn't see anything about NPC sell prices changing), so those also will not change. Casual or non-cash shop or any other more labor-based players will see their wages eroded with no benefit. Yes, they can now turn to the option of buying coins with real-life money instead, but the fact that the price of those coins may be driven up (remember the exchange rate in this direction is the inverse of your graph) by the extent to which they exercise that option is just saying they get hosed on that front as well."?" IS my avatar.0 -
First of all, lol at you posting the picture from the wiki article on supply and demand.
Second, you should be aware that people will still NPC DQ items.
Your graph is pretty much invalidated by the fact that there is an infinite sale source that purchases at a slowly lower cost and doesn't return the item to the market.Bladestorm lets you spin around like a carnival ride and do damage. Not using it is almost like having a move called Confetti Rocket Power Leap and saving it for "emergencies"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Nakhimov the Kingslayer of Kil'Jaeden's <Criminal Scum>
wowprogress.com/guild/us/kil-jaeden/Criminal+Scum0 -
Annastasia - Lost City wrote: »you forgot to factor in the amount of people quitting. would you rather make $5 from 5000 people consistantly or $20 from 200 people who only spend once? isn't it better business sense to make less money from more people for a long period of time than a quick burst of money and then people quit? i didnt attend any business school but it seems logical to me if you plan on having a game open for awhile. now if you were planning on closing a game... then i totally understand what is going on here.
here is the thing... why make money off poor people when you can make money off the rich. poor people is gonna bicker and moan for every penny they have to shell out. while the rich won't give a 2nd thought about a few million.
are you one of those people who spent hours trying to save that extra 1-2k coins... or trying to catch the lowest gold price in ah only to have it not fill and waste your 5% fee? i... on the other hand... isn't going to spend that minute of my life argueing with some random trying to save my self an extra k or two. the same apply for the ah... i would rather pay 5-10k extra and have my order fill... instead of wasting the 5% commission when my order didn't fill.
all in all... i probably waste 10s of millions of coins cause i overpaid for the **** i want... heck i remember i over paid 10-15 million on a single item before.
and to answer you question... i would rather get that 4k (20*200ppl) then 5k (5*5000ppl)... considering i have to spend 2500% MORE effort to collect that extra 25%... just doesn't seem right for the extra work involved. and our resident economist forgest to mention one thing.... pwi doesn't take cash so they'll need to pay a % + a set fee to vendors to process. that set fee is going to take a huge chunk out of your measily 5 dollar per charge... while it won't affect the bigger 20 dollar charge as much.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
Nakhimov - Lost City wrote: »First of all, lol at you posting the picture from the wiki article on supply and demand.
Second, you should be aware that people will still NPC DQ items.
Your graph is pretty much invalidated by the fact that there is an infinite sale source that purchases at a slowly lower cost and doesn't return the item to the market.
I agree 100%0 -
There's already a thread about the DQ price change here. No need to start another.0
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Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »here is the thing... why make money off poor people when you can make money off the rich. poor people is gonna bicker and moan for every penny they have to shell out. while the rich won't give a 2nd thought about a few million.
are you one of those people who spent hours trying to save that extra 1-2k coins... or trying to catch the lowest gold price in ah only to have it not fill and waste your 5% fee? i... on the other hand... isn't going to spend that minute of my life argueing with some random trying to save my self an extra k or two. the same apply for the ah... i would rather pay 5-10k extra and have my order fill... instead of wasting the 5% commission when my order didn't fill.
all in all... i probably waste 10s of millions of coins cause i overpaid for the **** i want... heck i remember i over paid 10-15 million on a single item before.
and to answer you question... i would rather get that 4k (20*200ppl) then 5k (5*5000ppl)... considering i have to spend 2500% MORE effort to collect that extra 25%... just doesn't seem right for the extra work involved. and our resident economist forgest to mention one thing.... pwi doesn't take cash so they'll need to pay a % + a set fee to vendors to process. that set fee is going to take a huge chunk out of your measily 5 dollar per charge... while it won't affect the bigger 20 dollar charge as much.
I feel that same way. I hate the fact that I sometimes overpay items, like I buy this one piece armor and I recently found out that I was ripped off. It's a dog eat dog world, and I have to learn to spend wisely and invest. I know people who do merchanting would flame at me for saying that, but it hurts me due to the fact that there are greedy people in this game.0 -
Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »and our resident economist forgest to mention one thing.... pwi doesn't take cash so they'll need to pay a % + a set fee to vendors to process. that set fee is going to take a huge chunk out of your measily 5 dollar per charge... while it won't affect the bigger 20 dollar charge as much.
Interchange fees and the other taxes on the economy (and implicit cross-subsidies) imposed by credit card processors happens to be a subject near and dear to my heart. However, I failed to follow this argument. It almost sounds like the old "You don't want to make so much money that you get pushed into a higher tax bracket" fallacy. More transactions has to be a net win for the company or they seriously need to renegotiate with their payment processors. In any event, I'll point out that PWE already reflects some of their fee structure in their menu of exchange rates between payments of certain sizes using particular payment processor options. If this really were an issue, I'd expect they would have an even lower exchange rate for the micro-transactions (also known as a bigger "bonus" for the larger transactions or for using more favorable processors) when using processors with flat fees too high."?" IS my avatar.0 -
They already added a couple huge coin sinks for rich people. 3 mil to run lunar squad mode, 600k for trophy mode.Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »here is the thing... why make money off poor people when you can make money off the rich. poor people is gonna bicker and moan for every penny they have to shell out. while the rich won't give a 2nd thought about a few million.
I think what's upsetting people here is that those are optional. Lower DQ sell prices affect everyone - there's no way to avoid it. Which makes me think it was an anti-botting measure, not some well-considered scheme to tweak the in-game economy by hurting poor people.
The thing is, there is no authoritative reference which will tell you what an item is worth. Some purchasers vastly overpay for an item. Others get an extraordinarily good deal. Where they meet in the middle is the market price.SaintDominic - Sanctuary wrote: »I feel that same way. I hate the fact that I sometimes overpay items, like I buy this one piece armor and I recently found out that I was ripped off. It's a dog eat dog world, and I have to learn to spend wisely and invest. I know people who do merchanting would flame at me for saying that, but it hurts me due to the fact that there are greedy people in this game.
The good/bad deals are also necessary for a functional economy. If every store sold an item for the same price, the price would never change. Stores have to charge different prices for the market price to fluctuate. If an item is popular, the lower priced shops get their inventory bought out, and all that remains is the inventory of the higher priced shops, causing an increase in the market price. If an item is unpopular, the lower priced shops can't sell out so they maintain an inventory at the lower price. Higher priced shops drop their price to move some of their inventory, causing a decrease in the market price.
That's what the big ticker boards you see in stock exchanges are for (similar to the gold sales board at the auctioneer). They allow everyone to see the prices for the most recent deals, allowing you to instantly gauge the market price. They really should expand it to the rest of the AH - let you sort items for auction based on price per item. That way you could always be sure you're buying the cheapest item currently listed on AH.0 -
FitHitDShan - Sanctuary wrote: »How much economics have you taken? You've graphed the supply response which would be, at most, second order and likely dominated by the income effect (fewer people selling gold because they have reacted to the increased difficulty of playing without real life cash by... not playing). You did not, oddly, graph the initial demand effect. Prices will go down because any people who were living off grind income and buying some gold with that will now have a higher tax on their labor.
The economics graphs that actually would be relevant to this discussion are derived from labor markets and income dispersion (or "wealth inequality" depending on your political leaning). The real problem in this game's economy is not the overall amount of coins. It is the concentration of coins in the hands of a subset of players. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer from this change. As others have pointed out, (with only a bit of overgeneralizing) this will not change the prices of high-end goods as those are driven by the demand of the wealthy subset of players who are generally no longer reliant on drops to fund their play for one reason or another. Most other goods that are traded in game have prices dictated by hard-wired prices of alternative sources (and I didn't see anything about NPC sell prices changing), so those also will not change. Casual or non-cash shop or any other more labor-based players will see their wages eroded with no benefit. Yes, they can now turn to the option of buying coins with real-life money instead, but the fact that the price of those coins may be driven up (remember the exchange rate in this direction is the inverse of your graph) by the extent to which they exercise that option is just saying they get hosed on that front as well.
I never said I thought it was the correct approach, only what I suspect the devs are attempting to do. The amount of ECN i have taken is irrelevant, because I was doing my best to keep my post simple so everyone would understand the basic concepts of supply and demand (thus the use of a simple graph). I seriously doubt most of the people who play PWI are econ majors, and are therefore incapable of complex analysis of the game's current economic situation. I was merely pointing out one way of analyzing what the devs are doing.
Also, I used the effect on supply of gold rather than demand, because that is what everyone is complaining about right now.0 -
b:chuckleb:chuckleb:chuckleb:chuckle
Please don't give too much credits to those sitting behind their desks and swinging your heads back and forth, lol. I have more reasons to support they don't know what they are doing, EXACTLY.0 -
FitHitDShan - Sanctuary wrote: »Interchange fees and the other taxes on the economy (and implicit cross-subsidies) imposed by credit card processors happens to be a subject near and dear to my heart. However, I failed to follow this argument. It almost sounds like the old "You don't want to make so much money that you get pushed into a higher tax bracket" fallacy. More transactions has to be a net win for the company or they seriously need to renegotiate with their payment processors. In any event, I'll point out that PWE already reflects some of their fee structure in their menu of exchange rates between payments of certain sizes using particular payment processor options. If this really were an issue, I'd expect they would have an even lower exchange rate for the micro-transactions (also known as a bigger "bonus" for the larger transactions or for using more favorable processors) when using processors with flat fees too high.
as far as credit card is concerned... the exchange rate is usually fixed per merchant regardless of amount per charge. so percentage wise, you (the merchant) will be charged more for smaller tranactions then say large transactions. this is how visa charge their merchants... hence i assume the same applies to ma/axp.
and no its not trying to avoid the next tax bracket by making less. it the question... would you rather keep 200 people happy or keep 5000 people happy. the extra thousand in potential profit does not justify the work of keeping an extra 4800 people happy. think about it... in an service enviroment, the 2 of us as individuals can prob keep 200 people happy by ourselves... but to keep 5k people happy... how many extra employees would we have to hire to accomplish that? for what... an extra 25% in profit... by magnifing our work load by 2500%? yea... it'll look great from a gross stand point... but what actually matter is margin of profit and net profit. it all comes down to why buttom feed when you can dine at the top?1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
b:chuckleb:chuckleb:chuckleb:chuckle
Please don't give too much credits to those sitting behind their desks and swinging your heads back and forth, lol. I have more reasons to support they don't know what they are doing, EXACTLY.
you can have all the reason you want... but after everything they are your reasons and your alone. you have no insight to the gross/net that pwi is racking in... all you have if your own naive belief of what pwi management should do. pw is listed on numerous stock exchanges... and hence forward they are bounded by law to make money for their investors... not to cater to your needs and want. and from last few quarters of earning statement... i would have to say pwrd is doing quiet well. and chances are they'll continue to function with or without your "reasons".1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
Feruta - Heavens Tear wrote: »I was doing my best to keep my post simple so everyone would understand the basic concepts of supply and demand (thus the use of a simple graph).
While I applaud your effort to keep things simple, your explanation is made completely worthless because of it. Simplifying things tends to break them a lot of the time b:surrenderBladestorm lets you spin around like a carnival ride and do damage. Not using it is almost like having a move called Confetti Rocket Power Leap and saving it for "emergencies"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Nakhimov the Kingslayer of Kil'Jaeden's <Criminal Scum>
wowprogress.com/guild/us/kil-jaeden/Criminal+Scum0 -
The beauty about an in game economy is that an item is only worth what any given person will pay for it. It's true in real life too, but even more so in a game economy where money just materializes and the negative side effects of being "broke" aren't so life threatening.
So if you are willing to spend 10 million on a tt90 top then that is the price of that top (for you!!! lol) regardless if others only spend 5 mill on it. The fun part of merchandising is trying to gauge what someone will pay for something at the extremes; if you have the time and patience to sell it for a higher price for those who "can't wait to have it" or if you need money quick and want to unload it what is the lowest you can go with out damaging your own profit margins . This practice doesn't necessarily set the standard price, as the mean price can only be what the market will bear.
However this all strays from the current thread topic. (Apologies) This change is like so many other poorly thought out ideas implemented. The GMs and Devs clearly have no feel for the community and are not even listening at all. So many examples of this have been listed its not worth repeating. They clearly have no concept of the games economy and player base. I mean after the 2x events everyone cried out that they wanted the drop rate (for non instance gear, i.e. tt mats, molds, etc) to stay high so it makes grinding worth it. At higher levels its not even part of the game any more. Let's just forget about the garbage exp and spirit rate for mobs or quests at higher levels that does not equate to what it takes to actually level. I mean does anyone still do quests or grind mobs for exp? It's all FC runs and BHs.
If people who actually had influence in game decisions sat down and played the game for an extended period of time, interacted with players ,etc they would see what is going on. Instead people play for a bit and make an un-educated decision based on periodic game play.0 -
Rumble - Harshlands wrote: »The GMs and Devs clearly have no feel for the community and are not even listening at all. So many examples of this have been listed its not worth repeating. They clearly have no concept of the games economy and player base.
who care what the community wants... the community is just sheep to be herded. after all for all your complains... you are still here... along with your other thousands of sheep friends. and pwi is still making money... and money... and more money.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »you can have all the reason you want... but after everything they are your reasons and your alone. you have no insight to the gross/net that pwi is racking in... all you have if your own naive belief of what pwi management should do. pw is listed on numerous stock exchanges... and hence forward they are bounded by law to make money for their investors... not to cater to your needs and want. and from last few quarters of earning statement... i would have to say pwrd is doing quiet well. and chances are they'll continue to function with or without your "reasons".
I meant for THAT particular lowering DQ values they don't know exactly what's the outcome is going to obe. LOL @ naive belief. You're talking to yourself right? I so far have done very little suggestion about what PW should do. I never question what they do nor I care so much to suggest what they do. Did you even scan through my posts just to see how much I've learnt about the company? You're far behind me. If I were you, I won't dare to raise a lip about the word "insight." What you're referring to is publicly listed.0 -
Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »who care what the community wants...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoaiWe-SNsM&feature=related
b:surrenderBladestorm lets you spin around like a carnival ride and do damage. Not using it is almost like having a move called Confetti Rocket Power Leap and saving it for "emergencies"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Nakhimov the Kingslayer of Kil'Jaeden's <Criminal Scum>
wowprogress.com/guild/us/kil-jaeden/Criminal+Scum0 -
Nakhimov - Lost City wrote: »While I applaud your effort to keep things simple, your explanation is made completely worthless because of it. Simplifying things tends to break them a lot of the time b:surrender
I tried. b:sad0 -
Feruta - Heavens Tear wrote: »I never said I thought it was the correct approach, only what I suspect the devs are attempting to do. The amount of ECN i have taken is irrelevant, because I was doing my best to keep my post simple so everyone would understand the basic concepts of supply and demand (thus the use of a simple graph). I seriously doubt most of the people who play PWI are econ majors, and are therefore incapable of complex analysis of the game's current economic situation. I was merely pointing out one way of analyzing what the devs are doing.
Also, I used the effect on supply of gold rather than demand, because that is what everyone is complaining about right now.
The DQ price change was made on PW-CN due to people haxing Instances for the drops .. It has nothing what so ever to do with " Awwww the kind Devs want to lower inflation "
/thread0
This discussion has been closed.
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