I are 89 D= Demon or Sage? @_@

The consensus is that Demon is better for PvP. However, note that the skills that make demon amazing are either expensive, hard to get, or both. The only level 89 skill that really stands out is Quickshot, which can cost upwards of 15-20m.

Demon skills are totally bad ****.

The thing about sage is that single shots will probably outdamage single shots from demon because thats mostly what sage does. It adds either extra damage... or extends certain effects that the skill originally has. However, higher single shots doesn't mean outdamaging. The attack speed and extra critical hit rate you get from demon will make up for that and take it to a whole new level of DPS.
What makes demon so special is the special extra effects that proc once the skills are used. For example the one TigerLil talked about. Quickshot. Has a 50% chance to increase attack speed by 30% which is like having a demon spark whenever you want.
Just like that skill, there are many more which makes demon completely overpowered once you get up higher level.

Skills that sage archers will argue for are:
sharp tooth arrow and bow mastery and frost arrow

Bow Mastery:
demon gets 75% weapon damage +1% critical hit rate
sage gets 90% weapon damage

then you think.... 15% weapon damage is a lot!
in reality, it's not as much as most sage archers claim it is. here i did the math on what the damage would be like with rank 8 bow +12
the reason i did such a high refine level with such a great bow was to try and justify for sage. Higher base numbers means higher differences in %. Anyway, here are the numbers

Sage Mastery: P-Attack = 13482-18281
Demon Mastery: P-Attack = 13050-17696

You can see that there is a 400-500 damage difference with a +12 rank8 bow..
I can't imagine how low the difference truly is with an average bow with around +6-7 which is what most average people in this game can afford. Obviously, it's not that big of a difference.

I'm not saying sage mastery is bad. Actually it's amazing. Better than demon mastery, but it doesn't make up for every other skill where demon is better.

Sharp Tooth Arrow:
Sage: Reduces maximum HP by 20%
Demon: Reduces maximum HP by 16% and increases critical hit rate by 10% for 15 seconds.

This is a good skill for pvp as well as pve. In most ocassions, it is necessary to get past a barb's charm. When it comes to world bosses... or just bosses in general, it reduces the time it takes to kill it by.

It's very obvious that sage sharp tooth arrow would be preferred by other squad members in any ocassions, however, when it comes to PK, I, myself, would prefer to get that extra critical boost. It all depends what you like.

Frost Arrow:
sage: turns all physical damage into water damage
demon: has a chance to cast without using chi, instead, gaining extra chi.

sage archers will claim that its super important to take down heavies, however, an extra magic attack is not necessary when archers already have enough metal skills to keep spamming. Also, i assume that not many archers have tried normal shooting a heavy armor since its always looked down upon by many, saying that those shots will do absolutely nothing. I deal around 1.5k-2k damage per shot to a heavy armor my level and similarly equipped. That will help your dps a bit and then break through their charm with metal skills right afterward. anyway, just to finish things up... an extra magic attack is not really necessary to kill a heavy armor.

Those are honestly the only skills that sage has which i would consider going sage for... all other skills are either unimportant and negligible for both or demon takes them by a long shot.

Do whatever suits your style best.

Obviously factor in the Demon/Sage skills, but don't listen to all these "OMG DEMONZ ONLY" people. If your character is more sagelike, so sage.

I'm going sage, and I plan to enjoy all the various idiotic reactions leveled at me from the demon camp. :P

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Do whatever suits your style best.

Obviously factor in the Demon/Sage skills, but don't listen to all these "OMG DEMONZ ONLY" people. If your character is more sagelike, so sage.

I'm going sage, and I plan to enjoy all the various idiotic reactions leveled at me from the demon camp. :P

Why would he destroy a perfectly good archer with the argument "its more sagelike". Thats like going sage because they fairy matches your pretty fashion. Or going sage because you wanna be "different".

If the guy wants to pvp, he will destroy his character that he lvled to 89+ by going sage.

If he doesn't give a **** about pvp and only enjoys grinding and farming mainly than for sure he can go sage since it doesn't really matter.

But i dislike when people that have no clue about pvp-balance endgame tries to convince new players that sage is just as good as demon and its all about "playstyle". This is not something the "OMG DEMONZ ONLY" people just made up. In terms of archers cultivation its simple fact if you look at how the developers created the skills.

Demon = pvp oriented

Dont even consider sage if you wanna pvp unless you can afford a ridiculously refined endgame weapon. As an average geared archer you cant kill anyone at higher lvls unless you have demon quick shoot + maxed out crit from buffs.

sage because they fairy matches your pretty fashion.

b:surrender Guilty b:cute

how many times do you really get to triple spark in mass PvP?

plus, it's not like Sages can't replace its bonus with a genie skill. the spark is not a cult changing decision. what is a cult changing decision is the skill set.

is 12% crit bonus win? is faster attack speed from quickshot win? is wingspan's autoshell win? is lightning strike's 100% hitrate win? is faster barrage win?

or

is higher take aim win? is 25% more weapon damage win? is 20% sharptooth win? is faster thunderous channeling win? is better chi gain win?

etc etc etc


you tell me.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

time to go back to archer 101, 90 - 75 = 15, not 25.

but often i wonder, what wouldve happened if i went sage like i originally intended to. im really hoping that cult chaging process doesnt have a huge cost/cooldown on its use, id like to experiment a tad with my other side. i originally changed due to peer pressure... but itstempting to see if the grass is really greener on the other side. or it could just be a lawn full of dog **** hidden amongst it out of sight.

ast, why havent you recommended they take the 'neutral' cultivation yet, that give's no rat's **** about heaven and hell's eternal struggle?

The grass is no greener unless you pay $5,000+ dollars.


If you have demon skills they will be gone when you make the change.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

how many times do you really get to triple spark in mass PvP?

plus, it's not like Sages can't replace its bonus with a genie skill. the spark is not a cult changing decision. what is a cult changing decision is the skill set.

is 12% crit bonus win? is faster attack speed from quickshot win? is wingspan's autoshell win? is lightning strike's 100% hitrate win? is faster barrage win?

or

is higher take aim win? is 25% more weapon damage win? is 20% sharptooth win? is faster thunderous channeling win? is better chi gain win?

etc etc etc


you tell me.

You actually can spark a lot in PvP. With spark pots or awaken you have 3 sparks many times.


When it comes down to charmed PvP, damage only matters if you can 2 shot someone, or if you have enough attack speed.


Since Archers dont deal 3,000+ HP Damage consistently without a +12 bow, you need to critical, and have attack speed working on your side.

LauraAngel - Lost City wrote: »

The grass is no greener unless you pay $5,000+ dollars.


If you have demon skills they will be gone when you make the change.

from what ive heard, it just costs extra to bring skills over. id wish theyd give us further insight on this if its really going to happen etc.

you are destroying your character by going sage! male archers already look ****, they dont need a white, girly fairy to finish the ensemble!

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The problem with your post is that you assume, blindly, that all demon enthusiasts have the exact same reasoning behind their choice.

I did/do not PvP, and I like demon. With regards to why I chose demon, I am fairly certain I do not fall under your stereotype.

Stop casting your prejudices upon others. Doing so lacks elegance and culture.

An error in wording, then. :P I should've clarified that I wasn't referring to all demon enthusiasts, or even most. Sorry that wasn't brought across in the last post.

But you have to admit there is that kind of bias. I would respect anyone who chooses demon over sage, but judging by some of the threads I've seen here, I would not get the same courtesy from some.

WaffleChan wrote:

you are destroying your character by going sage! male archers already look ****, they dont need a white, girly fairy to finish the ensemble!

I've never gotten the whole "****" thing, to be honest. I do realize it's an in-joke and everything (stormrage, etc.) but aside from the metal skill poses, there's nothing I can see that would lead to that conclusion. :P Eh.

Unless you're like some certain archers out there (We all know who they are) that can achieve 5 attack/second without any attack increase procs, go demon. If you CAN afford it (It's absurdly expensive, so probably not) then by all means, go sage.

about triple sparking...3s of standing there, chest thrust out is kind of seal bait.

with regards to why i say 25% more weapon damage, the other 10% extra comes from sage blazing.

male archers are effeminate because male light armor shows midriff.

LauraAngel - Lost City wrote: »

35% of crappy damage is still crappy damage.

It's just 25%. 15% more from Bow Mastery (90% vs 75%) and 10% more from Blazing Arrow (60% vs 50%).

Anyway, to put numbers to it, in an absolute best-case scenario:
+12 Flowing Stardust (Warsoul), 2 Drakeflame stones (+100 attack) gives 2611-3648 weapon damage.
25% of that is 652.75-912.
That's, at most, 912 more damage per shot. Which is reduced to 228 damage in PvP, against a target with zero defense. Doesn't really seem that useful, huh?

Now, Demon Quickshot is a 30% increase in attack speed. Because the game fails at math, that's really a 30% decrease in interval between hits. Which is in turn a 42.86% increase in attack speed, before rounding off to the nearest 0.05 seconds of interval. An increase in attack speed is an increase in damage, straight up. Each 1% of critical also adds 1% damage on average.

You can have your 228 damage per shot increase. I'll be over here with my 40% higher damage.

Yeah. I started out just going by the information on the forums, but the more I actually examined things the better Demon looked.

Admittedly, Demon Quickshot is horribly expensive to get unless you're lucky (Fourth try for me b:victory). It's absolutely amazing though. When's the last time you looked at a skill, thought "ooh, nice", got it, then realized it's better than advertised?

And yes, Sage Archers can use Relentless Courage in lieu of quickshot. However, at best, they can get a 62% bonus (100/100 LP Infliction with all points in Str, for 135 Str) once every 30 seconds, for uh... not sure how long, actually. 8 seconds?

Demons, on the other hand, have a 50% chance at a 43% bonus for 6 seconds, every 3 seconds. And we can save our genie for other things, like staying alive, or amping the target.

In short, Sages can get the attack rate bonus once in a while. Demons can have it active something like 75% of the time.

Cyanea - Lost City wrote: »

Demon quickshot is amazing, and so is demon spark.

However, I will not entirely discount sages. They can do some things that demons can not:

If they get a bow with +range, they have the longest ranged attacks of anyone in the game, 34m range vs 30 or 32m range only matters if you're fighting an archer without Sage Winged Blessing, and only if you open with and land an Aim Low. The only class with longer range than us is Assassins, at 35m, and freezing them in place isn't going to help since they'll just go stealth. their spark multiplies their effective health by a bit, and their skill damage is adequate. Sages crit for more damage than demons crit for, and so on... They can crit for, at most, 1824 more damage with a normal shot. That's with a +12 Warsoul with two Drakeflames. Not significant, when you consider that they're critting something like 20% less often.

In my opinion, when you run into diminishing returns, sages have advantages over demons but until then demons are superior. What diminishing returns? Attack speed increases don't hit diminishing returns until you hit the animation limits at 5 attacks per second (maybe lower for ranged weapons, not sure). Stacking -interval equipment (which should be done regardless of cultivation choice) has increasing returns. Critical hit chance doesn't hit diminishing returns unless you somehow manage to hit 100%, which I don't believe is possible.

Also, sages can occasionally get burst DPS, higher than demon DPS, without needing a genie skill. Explain please. Sages might be able to get a single stronger hit, but that's not the same thing as burst DPS. Sage Archers do a fraction more damage per shot, but Demon Archers shoot a LOT faster, and crit more often.

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