FIST ARCHER VS PURE DEX ARCHER!!! the true endgame archer!!! :O

ZahZu - Harshlands wrote: »

pure dex all the way, dex increases bow dmg, crit rate, accuracy, str increases..............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

You have no clue what you're talking about.




Assuming you stack -interval, which everyone that uses fists seriously does, fist DPS will make your DPS with bows look utterly pathetic. Fists can also, depending on the situation, be better for dealing with certain heavies than a bow. However, your bow (and the skills that come with using a bow) will still be of great use and should remain your primary weapon.

Brigid - Harshlands wrote: »

Note that in order to make a fist archer better than a bow-using archer, you need to stack a significant amount of -interval. This isn't possible without a significant amount of event gear, which is very expensive.

In other words, unless you're prepared to drop hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars on the game, don't expect a fist archer to match a bow archer in DPS.

you dont have to spend hundreds or thousands, i haven't spent anything on this game. and i have enough interval that bow dps doesn't come close to fist.

Brigid - Harshlands wrote: »

I stand corrected, and am also guilty of some exaggeration. However, you've also been playing for over a year. Thus, you can afford the interval gear without resorting to cashshopping. Given the way people rush to endgame levels these days, I doubt any new players can afford to stack that much interval without cashshopping.

I'm also curious as to how much interval you actually have.

Also, there seems to be some sort of rumor floating around that fist/claw weapons will be limited to blademaster only in the future. No idea how much truth there is to this, but if so... b:surrender

i have 5/sec with spark. I've heard that rumor too, that's why i'm so afraid of getting the tt100 fists lol, since they're bound, would be a waste of money if they became available for bm class only.

Hmm. With -0.15 interval, your attack speed unsparked is 1.82 attacks/sec, and demon sparked is 2.5 attacks/sec, right? If that's correct, I think that leads to about 20 seconds unsparked and 15 seconds sparked per cycle. Are you sure about being sparked more than half the time?

Anyway, I'll have to run some numbers as well as conduct some tests later when I've got the time. I'm at -0.15 interval myself (rank 4, Bracers of Blood Moon), and happen to have some -20% requirement Instant Strike Fists that I use mostly to mess around. I was under the impression that you needed a fair bit more interval before fists/claws out-DPSed a bow.

Another possibility that comes to mind is -20% or -30% requirement OHT claws. Those would be usable with hardly any restatting from Pure Dex, while still doing significant damage. Of course, you'd lose out on the bonus from Strength, but since most of the damage comes from the spark bonus, that's not a huge percentage of your total damage. Especially if you managed to make a pair with -interval modifiers.

Finally, I think one of the major other issues is that I've been thinking mostly in terms of Fist Archer vs Fist BM, rather than seeing Fist Archer as a possible way to improve upon a standard endgame archer.

Brigid - Harshlands wrote: »

Hmm. With -0.15 interval, your attack speed unsparked is 1.82 attacks/sec, and demon sparked is 2.5 attacks/sec, right? If that's correct, I think that leads to about 20 seconds unsparked and 15 seconds sparked per cycle. Are you sure about being sparked more than half the time?

Anyway, I'll have to run some numbers as well as conduct some tests later when I've got the time. I'm at -0.15 interval myself (rank 4, Bracers of Blood Moon), and happen to have some -20% requirement Instant Strike Fists that I use mostly to mess around. I was under the impression that you needed a fair bit more interval before fists/claws out-DPSed a bow.

Another possibility that comes to mind is -20% or -30% requirement OHT claws. Those would be usable with hardly any restatting from Pure Dex, while still doing significant damage. Of course, you'd lose out on the bonus from Strength, but since most of the damage comes from the spark bonus, that's not a huge percentage of your total damage. Especially if you managed to make a pair with -interval modifiers.

Finally, I think one of the major other issues is that I've been thinking mostly in terms of Fist Archer vs Fist BM, rather than seeing Fist Archer as a possible way to improve upon a standard endgame archer.

2.5attacks/second *15 secs = 37 attacks (which takes 15 seconds, truncate the decimal)

So I need 23 attacks to get the 300 chi I need


(23 attacks)/1.82 attacks/sec = 12.65 seconds

One spark cycle = 15 s (the time I spend attacking sparked) + 12.65s (Time I spend attacking unsparked. + 3 seconds (the time I spend sparking) = = 30.65 seconds


Which mean yes, I'm sparked less than half the time if you want to be technical. As I'm sparked 15 seconds for every 30.65 second spark cycle. To be more correct I should have said "I'm sparked more than half the time I'm attacking". With gorenox:vanity I'll be sparked over half the time. This is the archer forums, I would have jumped on someone for a similar mistake, we're pretty big mathaholics. (no sarcasm intended)


As for fist BM vs fist archer, there are a few points:


Archers get archer skills, BMs get BM skills. An archer can't just pull out axes and go hax on a group mobs, and a BM can't pull out a bow and BOA or STA something. BMs have their fist skills which can come in handy (shadowless kick comes to mind, I'm not a BM but I think thats a good one). Of course genies can be set up to minimize this difference, earthquake can cancel and BMs can use whatever that skill is to debuff HP.

Fist mastery gives +75% or 90% weapon attack, however blazing arrow gives +50% weapon attack. So thats +40% or +25%weapon attack, which doesn't mean a whole lot end game, bow mastery and blazing arrows getting more weapon attacks doesn't really mean a whole lot when people are arguing archer paths. However BMs win this one.


No matter how much a BM wants it though, they'll never get rank 4 , 6 and 8 chest with - int though.

So really, we're different and similar. I'm not sure which one is "better" but I'm fairly certain one of each in a squad would be better than two of either class.

Smobo - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Which mean yes, I'm sparked less than half the time if you want to be technical. As I'm sparked 15 seconds for every 30.65 second spark cycle. To be more correct I should have said "I'm sparked more than half the time I'm attacking". With gorenox:vanity I'll be sparked over half the time. This is the archer forums, I would have jumped on someone for a similar mistake, we're pretty big mathaholics. (no sarcasm intended)

You can also cheaply increase your dpt/time spent sparking with the gears you have now with cloud eruption b:victory.

fist archer is only for PvE, any smart enemy in PvP would either run or stun u if u try fist on them. unlike a bm, archers cant stun lock the enemy so they cant run/do anything. anyone who sticks around on a fist archer and taking hit either is an idiot, or is a barb/bm.
fist bm>fist archer. while it is easier for archers to get 5 atk/sec, bms have the advantage of not needing 300-400 dex for their bow wpn for dmg. a fist bm with their higher str and fist mastery along with being HA and having more HP will ripped a fist archer apart assuming with gear of equivalent value or so. with the current gears, an archer wouldnt have a big enough crit% advantage over the BM to make up the massive difference.>.> not to mention a good fist bm can switch wpn and keep u in stun lock in between hitting u with fists

fist archer will out dps bow archers on bosses especially on high hp ones

^ mmhmm.. and the idiot barb is going to sit there and watch his hp go down as u hit him under spark. anyone can pk an idiot who doesnt know how to adapt. i expect you to be fighting smart people who knows "oh, my charm tick and my hp is dropping 2 fast, lets move back from this sparked-fist archer while my charm regens" not the "oh its an archer, psh hes just going to tickle me no need to watch my hp, oops i died."

not to mention, if the barb have bramble on, u cant touch him. and even if u manage to freeze him in place, chances are barb can stun with might swing, or invoke and survive, oh wait... some barb can just drop an arma with ToP and watch the archer die. the problem with fist archer is simply we are not given the skills or ability as archer to adapt to the multiple situation that can occur in PvP. we basically end up with 1 thing, run up and atk. smart players adapt on the fly and change accordingly, people who are 1 trick pony which learn something and keep using it for everyone regardless of situation deserve to get murdered once people catch on.

Suiryujin - Sanctuary wrote: »

^ mmhmm.. and the idiot barb is going to sit there and watch his hp go down as u hit him under spark. anyone can pk an idiot who doesnt know how to adapt. i expect you to be fighting smart people who knows "oh, my charm tick and my hp is dropping 2 fast, lets move back from this sparked-fist archer while my charm regens" not the "oh its an archer, psh hes just going to tickle me no need to watch my hp, oops i died."

not to mention, if the barb have bramble on, u cant touch him. and even if u manage to freeze him in place, chances are barb can stun with might swing, or invoke and survive, oh wait... some barb can just drop an arma with ToP and watch the archer die. the problem with fist archer is simply we are not given the skills or ability as archer to adapt to the multiple situation that can occur in PvP. we basically end up with 1 thing, run up and atk. smart players adapt on the fly and change accordingly, people who are 1 trick pony which learn something and keep using it for everyone regardless of situation deserve to get murdered once people catch on.

Well if the barb was smart he would move back after his charm ticks, nobody said the barb is going sit there and tank the hits, everyone plays different. Even after he runs after his charm ticks you can just switch to bow, not like adding the 20 extra str points gonna make my bow dmg significantly less.

If the barb did have bramble on, of course we wouldn't be using fist against them, not all fist archers are stupid. A barb using top arma does nothing anymore, maybe I need to fight higher hp barbs, but usually their armas do only 3k~.

Msmunholy - Lost City wrote: »

WTF, its an archer use a god damn bow, if u want to stack intervel and use higher str fists then make a BM (hence the fist claw mastry on that char) end of story, close tread. b:bye

Since when is there a set build for archer, everyone should play how they like.

Anyways, I dont know why im arguing on here, we're not even from the same server XD. Having enough str for fist while still using bow has been a lot more fun for me than just staying with bow. I tank every TT and HA classes seem easier for me to fight in pk sometimes. So you guys can stay pure dex if you like, it's not hurting you when other archers are playing with fists. b:pleased

Chezedude the fist archer - hes doin it right
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5DJSO_7sCs&feature=related

for an arma to do "like 3k" means the barb has like 10k hp at the time of arma. that would make the barb at say...8k hp without ToP? this is assuming you have 50% physical reduction. i find that hard to believe on 10x barbs, are you sure you're not fighting 7x cubs?

To be honest a BM can do just as much damage as an archer can with fists. however, it seems to be more effective you need demon/sage spark. In PvP talk atm. I've killed plenty of high lvl archers in PvP with my TT70 bow, no refines, no shards (untill last night) I've taken out a lvl 97 pure dex archer, so to the topic, it don't really matter if pure dex or added strenth to a archer. it depends on 1 thing: MONEY. you see a lot of cash players thinking they bad **** with their +12 gear and all 4 soc armour. not bashing on cash players here. but really, an archer with over 10k HP with enough dex for a lvl 100 rank gear? its a no wonder you can solo lol.

in the end if you have a shiit load of cash, it don't matter if end game you go pure dex archer or fist archer.

if you don't..well it depends if you go PvP or PvE. I can't really say O.o I'm a...BOWMASTA...not a archer. >_<