FIST ARCHER VS PURE DEX ARCHER!!! the true endgame archer!!! :O

olossus

I am into my mid 90s for my archer. Currently my archer is a

pretty much a pure dex archer with just strength to use "Dark flash" the legendary claws.

Ive been told that the pure dex archer is the best build for PVP. Is this also true in the

endgame because i see a whole lot of archer running around with more strength to use

higher lvl claws then the pure dex archer build allows. Soo what is truly the best build for

PVP? and PVE? with is the better DPS and DD? I want to know which route do you prefer?

The fist archer or the pure dex archer? What would make the ultimate archer PKer? FIST

ARCHER VS PURE DEX ARCHER? who would win in a fight? Who has the best chances against

a barb? BM? assassin? cleric? wizard? psychic? WHO IS THE DEADLIeSTb:surrender

ZahZu - Harshlands

pure dex all the way, dex increases bow dmg, crit rate, accuracy, str increases..............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

truekossy

ZahZu - Harshlands wrote: »

pure dex all the way, dex increases bow dmg, crit rate, accuracy, str increases..............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

You have no clue what you're talking about.




Assuming you stack -interval, which everyone that uses fists seriously does, fist DPS will make your DPS with bows look utterly pathetic. Fists can also, depending on the situation, be better for dealing with certain heavies than a bow. However, your bow (and the skills that come with using a bow) will still be of great use and should remain your primary weapon.

Brigid - Harshlands

Note that in order to make a fist archer better than a bow-using archer, you need to stack a significant amount of -interval. This isn't possible without a significant amount of event gear, which is very expensive.

In other words, unless you're prepared to drop hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars on the game, don't expect a fist archer to match a bow archer in DPS.

Kasumi - Dreamweaver

Brigid - Harshlands wrote: »

Note that in order to make a fist archer better than a bow-using archer, you need to stack a significant amount of -interval. This isn't possible without a significant amount of event gear, which is very expensive.

In other words, unless you're prepared to drop hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars on the game, don't expect a fist archer to match a bow archer in DPS.

you dont have to spend hundreds or thousands, i haven't spent anything on this game. and i have enough interval that bow dps doesn't come close to fist.

Brigid - Harshlands

Kasumi - Dreamweaver wrote: »

you dont have to spend hundreds or thousands, i haven't spent anything on this game. and i have enough interval that bow dps doesn't come close to fist.

I stand corrected, and am also guilty of some exaggeration. However, you've also been playing for over a year. Thus, you can afford the interval gear without resorting to cashshopping. Given the way people rush to endgame levels these days, I doubt any new players can afford to stack that much interval without cashshopping.

I'm also curious as to how much interval you actually have.

Also, there seems to be some sort of rumor floating around that fist/claw weapons will be limited to blademaster only in the future. No idea how much truth there is to this, but if so... b:surrender

Kasumi - Dreamweaver

Brigid - Harshlands wrote: »

I stand corrected, and am also guilty of some exaggeration. However, you've also been playing for over a year. Thus, you can afford the interval gear without resorting to cashshopping. Given the way people rush to endgame levels these days, I doubt any new players can afford to stack that much interval without cashshopping.

I'm also curious as to how much interval you actually have.

Also, there seems to be some sort of rumor floating around that fist/claw weapons will be limited to blademaster only in the future. No idea how much truth there is to this, but if so... b:surrender

i have 5/sec with spark. I've heard that rumor too, that's why i'm so afraid of getting the tt100 fists lol, since they're bound, would be a waste of money if they became available for bm class only.

Smobo - Heavens Tear

I'm PVE, nothing from this post can't be nessisarily applied to PVP.

I`m currently experimenting with the heavy build. My bow dps is about 75% of what it used t
o be, and my fist damage is about 180% of what my old bow damage used to be. I am only using dark flash, and my only -interval is tt90 gold wrists and rank 4 chest.

My bow damage has taken a hit, but before I was often having to hold back on most things to not hold back, so from a PVE perspective I've only taken a hit in my ability to grind. Anything where I didn't need to hold back before (Mainly ? bosses), I can use my fists and deal much more damage than before. They key is the fact I'm spark a significantly high % of the time ,even now, with only -.15 interval I'm sparked more than half the time I'm attacking in a spark loop, which is the real thing that makes fists shine, and the reason I've gained so much average DPS.

The heavy armour also helps out. A week ago I would have told anyone who was going for endgame heavy armour as and archer to that they had been doing to much drugs, but from analysis of the math, and my own personal experimentation, I'm really looking forward to getting to where I can wear TT99 heavy armour. Compared my old pure dex self, I'm a brick wall right now, even wearing rank 4 LA chest.

If you're interested in my alalysis its here:
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=679872

Also, for the non believers, here's what an endgame fist archer can do:
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=591401

Brigid - Harshlands

Hmm. With -0.15 interval, your attack speed unsparked is 1.82 attacks/sec, and demon sparked is 2.5 attacks/sec, right? If that's correct, I think that leads to about 20 seconds unsparked and 15 seconds sparked per cycle. Are you sure about being sparked more than half the time?

Anyway, I'll have to run some numbers as well as conduct some tests later when I've got the time. I'm at -0.15 interval myself (rank 4, Bracers of Blood Moon), and happen to have some -20% requirement Instant Strike Fists that I use mostly to mess around. I was under the impression that you needed a fair bit more interval before fists/claws out-DPSed a bow.

Another possibility that comes to mind is -20% or -30% requirement OHT claws. Those would be usable with hardly any restatting from Pure Dex, while still doing significant damage. Of course, you'd lose out on the bonus from Strength, but since most of the damage comes from the spark bonus, that's not a huge percentage of your total damage. Especially if you managed to make a pair with -interval modifiers.

Finally, I think one of the major other issues is that I've been thinking mostly in terms of Fist Archer vs Fist BM, rather than seeing Fist Archer as a possible way to improve upon a standard endgame archer.

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

Smobo - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Also, for the non believers, here's what an endgame fist archer can do:
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=591401

o0 wonder how much that build cost 0o

Smobo - Heavens Tear

Brigid - Harshlands wrote: »

Hmm. With -0.15 interval, your attack speed unsparked is 1.82 attacks/sec, and demon sparked is 2.5 attacks/sec, right? If that's correct, I think that leads to about 20 seconds unsparked and 15 seconds sparked per cycle. Are you sure about being sparked more than half the time?

Anyway, I'll have to run some numbers as well as conduct some tests later when I've got the time. I'm at -0.15 interval myself (rank 4, Bracers of Blood Moon), and happen to have some -20% requirement Instant Strike Fists that I use mostly to mess around. I was under the impression that you needed a fair bit more interval before fists/claws out-DPSed a bow.

Another possibility that comes to mind is -20% or -30% requirement OHT claws. Those would be usable with hardly any restatting from Pure Dex, while still doing significant damage. Of course, you'd lose out on the bonus from Strength, but since most of the damage comes from the spark bonus, that's not a huge percentage of your total damage. Especially if you managed to make a pair with -interval modifiers.

Finally, I think one of the major other issues is that I've been thinking mostly in terms of Fist Archer vs Fist BM, rather than seeing Fist Archer as a possible way to improve upon a standard endgame archer.

2.5attacks/second *15 secs = 37 attacks (which takes 15 seconds, truncate the decimal)

So I need 23 attacks to get the 300 chi I need


(23 attacks)/1.82 attacks/sec = 12.65 seconds

One spark cycle = 15 s (the time I spend attacking sparked) + 12.65s (Time I spend attacking unsparked. + 3 seconds (the time I spend sparking) = = 30.65 seconds


Which mean yes, I'm sparked less than half the time if you want to be technical. As I'm sparked 15 seconds for every 30.65 second spark cycle. To be more correct I should have said "I'm sparked more than half the time I'm attacking". With gorenox:vanity I'll be sparked over half the time. This is the archer forums, I would have jumped on someone for a similar mistake, we're pretty big mathaholics. (no sarcasm intended)


As for fist BM vs fist archer, there are a few points:


Archers get archer skills, BMs get BM skills. An archer can't just pull out axes and go hax on a group mobs, and a BM can't pull out a bow and BOA or STA something. BMs have their fist skills which can come in handy (shadowless kick comes to mind, I'm not a BM but I think thats a good one). Of course genies can be set up to minimize this difference, earthquake can cancel and BMs can use whatever that skill is to debuff HP.

Fist mastery gives +75% or 90% weapon attack, however blazing arrow gives +50% weapon attack. So thats +40% or +25%weapon attack, which doesn't mean a whole lot end game, bow mastery and blazing arrows getting more weapon attacks doesn't really mean a whole lot when people are arguing archer paths. However BMs win this one.


No matter how much a BM wants it though, they'll never get rank 4 , 6 and 8 chest with - int though.

So really, we're different and similar. I'm not sure which one is "better" but I'm fairly certain one of each in a squad would be better than two of either class.

Brigid - Harshlands

Regarding the sparked time, yes, you're correct. I made a mistake somewhere in my calculations. Probably the result of trying to do math at 2am without writing anything down b:surrender.

Will run a DPS comparison in a bit, once I find a suitable target.

Neodaystar - Sanctuary

Smobo - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Which mean yes, I'm sparked less than half the time if you want to be technical. As I'm sparked 15 seconds for every 30.65 second spark cycle. To be more correct I should have said "I'm sparked more than half the time I'm attacking". With gorenox:vanity I'll be sparked over half the time. This is the archer forums, I would have jumped on someone for a similar mistake, we're pretty big mathaholics. (no sarcasm intended)

You can also cheaply increase your dpt/time spent sparking with the gears you have now with cloud eruption b:victory.

Haloangel - Dreamweaver

LOL that would suck if bms were the only class able to use fists in the future!<3 using fists is a lot of fun, but i still prefer bow for pvp

Suiryujin - Sanctuary

fist archer is only for PvE, any smart enemy in PvP would either run or stun u if u try fist on them. unlike a bm, archers cant stun lock the enemy so they cant run/do anything. anyone who sticks around on a fist archer and taking hit either is an idiot, or is a barb/bm.
fist bm>fist archer. while it is easier for archers to get 5 atk/sec, bms have the advantage of not needing 300-400 dex for their bow wpn for dmg. a fist bm with their higher str and fist mastery along with being HA and having more HP will ripped a fist archer apart assuming with gear of equivalent value or so. with the current gears, an archer wouldnt have a big enough crit% advantage over the BM to make up the massive difference.>.> not to mention a good fist bm can switch wpn and keep u in stun lock in between hitting u with fists

fist archer will out dps bow archers on bosses especially on high hp ones

Kasumi - Dreamweaver

Suiryujin - Sanctuary wrote: »

fist archer is only for PvE, any smart enemy in PvP would either run or stun u if u try fist on them. unlike a bm, archers cant stun lock the enemy so they cant run/do anything. anyone who sticks around on a fist archer and taking hit either is an idiot, or is a barb/bm.
fist bm>fist archer. while it is easier for archers to get 5 atk/sec, bms have the advantage of not needing 300-400 dex for their bow wpn for dmg. a fist bm with their higher str and fist mastery along with being HA and having more HP will ripped a fist archer apart assuming with gear of equivalent value or so. with the current gears, an archer wouldnt have a big enough crit% advantage over the BM to make up the massive difference.>.> not to mention a good fist bm can switch wpn and keep u in stun lock in between hitting u with fists

fist archer will out dps bow archers on bosses especially on high hp ones

ofc its stupid to try to take on a fist bm as fist archer if both have simliar gears or if the bm has enough interval with a high refine fist. If the fist bm doesn't have enough interval, he'll drop fast to a fist archer that does. Saying fist archer is only for pve is silly. i would like to see an archer using bow try to kill 100 barb in 1v1, not as easy as using fists. restating my points to use fist didnt really lower my bow damage by that much, and gives me more options in pk than just using bow and lightning skills on HA classes.

Suiryujin - Sanctuary

^ mmhmm.. and the idiot barb is going to sit there and watch his hp go down as u hit him under spark. anyone can pk an idiot who doesnt know how to adapt. i expect you to be fighting smart people who knows "oh, my charm tick and my hp is dropping 2 fast, lets move back from this sparked-fist archer while my charm regens" not the "oh its an archer, psh hes just going to tickle me no need to watch my hp, oops i died."

not to mention, if the barb have bramble on, u cant touch him. and even if u manage to freeze him in place, chances are barb can stun with might swing, or invoke and survive, oh wait... some barb can just drop an arma with ToP and watch the archer die. the problem with fist archer is simply we are not given the skills or ability as archer to adapt to the multiple situation that can occur in PvP. we basically end up with 1 thing, run up and atk. smart players adapt on the fly and change accordingly, people who are 1 trick pony which learn something and keep using it for everyone regardless of situation deserve to get murdered once people catch on.

Msmunholy - Lost City

WTF, its an archer use a god damn bow, if u want to stack intervel and use higher str fists then make a BM (hence the fist claw mastry on that char) end of story, close tread. b:bye

Kasumi - Dreamweaver

Suiryujin - Sanctuary wrote: »

^ mmhmm.. and the idiot barb is going to sit there and watch his hp go down as u hit him under spark. anyone can pk an idiot who doesnt know how to adapt. i expect you to be fighting smart people who knows "oh, my charm tick and my hp is dropping 2 fast, lets move back from this sparked-fist archer while my charm regens" not the "oh its an archer, psh hes just going to tickle me no need to watch my hp, oops i died."

not to mention, if the barb have bramble on, u cant touch him. and even if u manage to freeze him in place, chances are barb can stun with might swing, or invoke and survive, oh wait... some barb can just drop an arma with ToP and watch the archer die. the problem with fist archer is simply we are not given the skills or ability as archer to adapt to the multiple situation that can occur in PvP. we basically end up with 1 thing, run up and atk. smart players adapt on the fly and change accordingly, people who are 1 trick pony which learn something and keep using it for everyone regardless of situation deserve to get murdered once people catch on.

Well if the barb was smart he would move back after his charm ticks, nobody said the barb is going sit there and tank the hits, everyone plays different. Even after he runs after his charm ticks you can just switch to bow, not like adding the 20 extra str points gonna make my bow dmg significantly less.

If the barb did have bramble on, of course we wouldn't be using fist against them, not all fist archers are stupid. A barb using top arma does nothing anymore, maybe I need to fight higher hp barbs, but usually their armas do only 3k~.

Msmunholy - Lost City wrote: »

WTF, its an archer use a god damn bow, if u want to stack intervel and use higher str fists then make a BM (hence the fist claw mastry on that char) end of story, close tread. b:bye

Since when is there a set build for archer, everyone should play how they like.

Anyways, I dont know why im arguing on here, we're not even from the same server XD. Having enough str for fist while still using bow has been a lot more fun for me than just staying with bow. I tank every TT and HA classes seem easier for me to fight in pk sometimes. So you guys can stay pure dex if you like, it's not hurting you when other archers are playing with fists. b:pleased

Smobo - Heavens Tear

Msmunholy - Lost City wrote: »

WTF, its an archer use a god damn bow, if u want to stack intervel and use higher str fists then make a BM (hence the fist claw mastry on that char) end of story, close tread. b:bye

Bows are stupid, anyone who uses a bow should make a BM with a bow because they're better than an archer with a bow. I seen a BM use a bow once and he was epic and awesome and did lots of damage and stuff. BMs can have high dex and can use bows as well, and its also undeniable true facts that BM actually stands for Bow Master, and Archer is short for Architect. Thus Archers shouldn't use bows, they should be designing buildings.

I refuse to look at any evidence proving me wrong, regardless of how logic based it is. So please close every thread on the archer forums remotely talking about bows kthnxbye.

Esnemyl - Dreamweaver

Chezedude the fist archer - hes doin it right
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5DJSO_7sCs&feature=related

Olba - Sanctuary

Esnemyl - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Chezedude the fist archer - hes doin it right
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5DJSO_7sCs&feature=related

Yeah, doing it right with some of the best items in the game. Good luck trying to replicate that without spending thousands of dollars.

Quilue - Sanctuary

for an arma to do "like 3k" means the barb has like 10k hp at the time of arma. that would make the barb at say...8k hp without ToP? this is assuming you have 50% physical reduction. i find that hard to believe on 10x barbs, are you sure you're not fighting 7x cubs?

Kasumi - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

for an arma to do "like 3k" means the barb has like 10k hp at the time of arma. that would make the barb at say...8k hp without ToP? this is assuming you have 50% physical reduction. i find that hard to believe on 10x barbs, are you sure you're not fighting 7x cubs?

um I have like 10k pdef buffed, or around there. maybe I should've add that in, but never really been arma'd unbuffed at my level now, I have when I was in 90s or so but that was with different gears. I usually pk with just cleric buff at least. not all barbs i've fought are 10x, some are usually 95+ or 90+ sometime with decent gears.

JamesJutsu - Dreamweaver

To be honest a BM can do just as much damage as an archer can with fists. however, it seems to be more effective you need demon/sage spark. In PvP talk atm. I've killed plenty of high lvl archers in PvP with my TT70 bow, no refines, no shards (untill last night) I've taken out a lvl 97 pure dex archer, so to the topic, it don't really matter if pure dex or added strenth to a archer. it depends on 1 thing: MONEY. you see a lot of cash players thinking they bad **** with their +12 gear and all 4 soc armour. not bashing on cash players here. but really, an archer with over 10k HP with enough dex for a lvl 100 rank gear? its a no wonder you can solo lol.

in the end if you have a shiit load of cash, it don't matter if end game you go pure dex archer or fist archer.

if you don't..well it depends if you go PvP or PvE. I can't really say O.o I'm a...BOWMASTA...not a archer. >_<

Esnemyl - Dreamweaver

JamesJutsu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

in the end if you have a shiit load of cash, it don't matter if end game you go pure dex archer or fist archer.

i couldnt had put it better myself even if im going hybrid