To all those who think Sage Wiz is far more superior...

ShadowDrag - Lost City · March 2010

Let me make this clear first, I am not arguing on whether sage or demon is better, as I have learned, this argument will never end. Since there are advantages and disadvantages for both sides and for those that picked one side will always stand up for that side to prove they didn't fail at making the decision. Also, just for the record, I'm a hell mage ijs.

Now that we have that out of the way, real point in posting:

I have a question, when i see arguments on whether demon or sage is better. Why is it that I see everyone on the demon side have variations on why they think demon is better. As for the sage mages...

SAGE BIDS KTHXBAI!

...wtf?

This may have been the case 10 months ago...but there is no really "OP" skill anymore. Why do i say that? First of all, a "OP" skill is not "OP" if the player can't use it. Secondly, what happens when... a sage wizard 2x sparks, chi skills, lv 11 BIDS, frenzy, heavens flame, amp, poison... etc etc.

...then the target absolute domains.

We didn't have genies back then, and in my opinion, when those came out and the "OP" genie skills were nerfed, it really balanced out the classes. (Tideborn...nvm thats a different story).

Just putting my thoughts out there.

Also, when i was reading up on a post of argument, this is what i found:

Lol sounds amazing

Gratz on becoming sage and reaching 89+

And thanks for sharing your experiences with sage.....(this was much more informative than those freaking lists of skills ppl usually give me)

and I changed my mind now I'M GOING SAGE

Quote from: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=644142&page=9

I lol'd

Astoru - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Pfft, who 2 sparks then BIDS? What about Sutra+Undine+Poison+BIDS?

Harder to AD that when it casts within a second.

Adroit - Lost City · March 2010

For your sage BIDS comment, domain doesn't solve everything.
#1 no channeling pots/sutra then BIDS will 99.999% of the time get off before somebody can react, and even if they do hit domain server lag means they RARELY actually resist
#2 domain = 3 min cooldown and 135 energy. Making them waste that (maybe channel dragon and cancel it when you see domain go up..) or even drop the dragon.. let them resist it and it shouldn't be a problem getting those 2 sparks again to drop it again within the next 3 minutes. Besides that, it is sometimes worth it to force them to use domain right off the bat, leaving you with a good long time with the opponent having little energy on their genie.
#3 It's not just a 1v1 skill, using it in mass PvP means it is likely they will see it coming, or even be able to do anything. Unless everybody saves their genie solely for domain, good chance they won't have the energy for it..

sage BIDS is still as "OP" as ever.. add in the chi building ability from chi skill/pyro/half cost distance shrink etc.. I would never think of going demon, just me though

ShadowDrag - Lost City · March 2010

Whew, not turning into an argument..yet b:victory

/Groovy/ - Harshlands · March 2010

ShadowDrag - Lost City wrote: »

I lol'd

And what's so funny? Before I've chosen my cultivation I watched few videos of lvl 100 wizard in action during PK/TW. You know what were the most used skills?
Gush.
Pyrogram.
Stone Rain.
Distance Shrink.
Chi skill.

4 out of 5 skills are learned at lvl 89 b:bye

If you think that I became Sage only for Sage BIDS then...
I can only laugh

Ps. If you would finish opening post after first sentence (where you stated the fact that both cultivations are good and equal) I would 100% agree. No idea why you argue over 1 of sage skills instead of looking at the whole picture :P

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver · March 2010

Actually, from what I've seen on the 'arguments' between sage/demon, it's mostly the demons that say '3spark FTW' (or something like that), and the sages that put some numbers on the table.

Maybe that's just a new trent though, I try to avoid the sage/demon flame topics as much as possible

THough yea, going sage just for a lvl 99 skil is just stupid

Astoru - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Actually, from what I've seen on the 'arguments' between sage/demon, it's mostly the demons that say '3spark FTW' (or something like that), and the sages that put some numbers on the table.

Maybe that's just a new trent though, I try to avoid the sage/demon flame topics as much as possible

THough yea, going sage just for a lvl 99 skil is just stupid

Funny thing is that most of these guys have never done a TW before.

9 times out of 10, if you spark in a TW within sight of your opponents, it practically screams "STUN THIS BISH". That huge red flash makes it even worse.

Not saying anything bad about demon spark, because it is superior to the sage spark.

I went sage for a few reasons: Masteries, Faster casting stone rain (I love this skill), Sage BIDS (Yeah, sue me), and debuffs on D.Pyro/Glacial. You don't always have time to cast undine.

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver · March 2010

I guess the pros/cons of sage and demon are pretty balanced and its up to your personal build and preference on skills which one is the right one

for instance if you take a look at the mastery skills
sage gets more dmg and demon gets more crit

im a LA mage so if i keep my la build my possible crit rate at 90 should be around 12% and a pure mage should have around 8%. On the other hand the pure mage does have a higher magical attack when wearing equal weapon. So from the point of a LA mage the Sage extra dmg on the elements would be more desireable than the extra crit whereas a pure mage might want to get extra crit chance since dmg is already high

another point why its still up to personal preference is that while sage increases the water ultimate in terms of dmg demon does the same with the stone so you should rather think which of the skills you use more and which passive effects of the build go better together with your build. Judging by comparing 1 skill is definitely no good idea. So everybody who says there is just one "right" way regardless if its sage or demon is wrong

greetz harm0wnie

Myriad_ - Lost City · March 2010

Well the real question is :

Do demon mastery stack?

It can be one reason to go demon. If not, well...

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver · March 2010

Myriad_ - Lost City wrote: »

Well the real question is :

Do demon mastery stack?

It can be one reason to go demon. If not, well...

in my understanding the % crit is calculated for the use of a skill of the specific skill tree so when using a water spell +1 % when using a fire skill +1% when using an earth skill +1%. So its always +1% not 3 % if you have all masteries maxed

I guess it has to be calculated that way because the effects on the shields wont be additive neither because you can only use 1 shield and 1 kind of magic. The only possibilty where it might be able to add up somehow would be a sutra combo with 1 spell from each element but also there it should not be 3%

greetz harm0wnie

Myriad_ - Lost City · March 2010

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

in my understanding the % crit is calculated for the use of a skill of the specific skill tree so when using a water spell +1 % when using a fire skill +1% when using an earth skill +1%. So its always +1% not 3 % if you have all masteries maxed

I guess it has to be calculated that way because the effects on the shields wont be additive neither because you can only use 1 shield and 1 kind of magic. The only possibilty where it might be able to add up somehow would be a sutra combo with 1 spell from each element but also there it should not be 3%

greetz harm0wnie

Where does your understanding come from? Even in Ecatomb they corrected and say now "increase critical hit by 1%"...

Ursa - Dreamweaver · March 2010

I thought there was no doubt anymore: demon masteries add 3% to crit.

As for Sage being superior...no, it isn't. Well, depending on circumstances, sage is superior to demon(survivability) and TW; and Demon is superior to Sage 1v1 control and burst damage (tripple spark).

brownflamer · March 2010

ShadowDrag - Lost City wrote: »

Let me make this clear first, I am not arguing on whether sage or demon is better, as I have learned, this argument will never end. Since there are advantages and disadvantages for both sides and for those that picked one side will always stand up for that side to prove they didn't fail at making the decision. Also, just for the record, I'm a hell mage ijs.

Now that we have that out of the way, real point in posting:

I have a question, when i see arguments on whether demon or sage is better. Why is it that I see everyone on the demon side have variations on why they think demon is better. As for the sage mages...

SAGE BIDS KTHXBAI!

...wtf?

This may have been the case 10 months ago...but there is no really "OP" skill anymore. Why do i say that? First of all, a "OP" skill is not "OP" if the player can't use it. Secondly, what happens when... a sage wizard 2x sparks, chi skills, lv 11 BIDS, frenzy, heavens flame, amp, poison... etc etc.

...then the target absolute domains.

We didn't have genies back then, and in my opinion, when those came out and the "OP" genie skills were nerfed, it really balanced out the classes. (Tideborn...nvm thats a different story).

Just putting my thoughts out there.

Also, when i was reading up on a post of argument, this is what i found:

Quote from: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=644142&page=9

I lol'd

LOLb:chuckle

hello shadowdrag...

Yes, I'm the one who posted the post which you lol'd at.....

Now what exactly did you lol at.....me congratulating someone?

That would be a first......."Lmfao he congratulated someone"b:sweat

How the hell do you lol at something like that?b:embarrass

You like being Demon........... fine good choice........but don't f*cking lol at someone for congratulating someone else....cause that's f*cked up.....

Anyways Gratz to the next person going demon
And gratz to the next person going sage

Are you gonna lol at this ^ too? b:worried

Myriad_ - Lost City · March 2010

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I thought there was no doubt anymore: demon masteries add 3% to crit.

As for Sage being superior...no, it isn't. Well, depending on circumstances, sage is superior to demon(survivability) and TW; and Demon is superior to Sage 1v1 control and burst damage (tripple spark).

No doubt anymore? Cool, now sage and demons are pretty well balanced lolz

brownflamer · March 2010

Oh and here's the latest update by me.....

I'M GOING DEMON b:victory

Ursa - Dreamweaver · March 2010

Myriad_ - Lost City wrote: »

No doubt anymore? Cool, now sage and demons are pretty well balanced lolz

yup, someone used an eye of observation on a demon with all masteries learned. Crit was showing 3% higher than in char window.
It's the same procedure archers did to confirm the crit proc from STA and Stunning Arrow are not 10% increase from crit you already have but a 10 added to your crit ( starting crit 33% - after proc you have 43% not 36.)

Damaged - Lost City · March 2010

Considering everyone that matters has already chosen their culti, who cares?

If we could change culti on the other hand...

And yes it's still as powerful as ever, since Sage BIDS usually kills large groups of people in TW as opposed to Hell BIDS that simply ticks charms and kills maybe half of them due to crit and\or lowered initial hp (unless you've got 20k m attack...)

Kristoph - Lost City · March 2010

/Groovy/ - Harshlands wrote: »

And what's so funny? Before I've chosen my cultivation I watched few videos of lvl 100 wizard in action during PK/TW. You know what were the most used skills?
Gush.
Pyrogram.
Stone Rain.
Distance Shrink.
Chi skill.

4 out of 5 skills are learned at lvl 89 b:bye

lol

Probably because whoever's vid you watched had no lv11 phoenix/sandstorm/every other skill.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

yup, someone used an eye of observation on a demon with all masteries learned. Crit was showing 3% higher than in char window.
It's the same procedure archers did to confirm the crit proc from STA and Stunning Arrow are not 10% increase from crit you already have but a 10 added to your crit ( starting crit 33% - after proc you have 43% not 36.)

It doesn't prove ABSOLUTELY anything. What if it working 1% for each element but eye showed 3 elements together and showed 3%? Very big possibility, because eye doesn't recognize 3 elements. Also two different answers from GM. You can choose which one you like.

BTW I'm still waiting for answer from china PW. Today I will send email again.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · March 2010

To OP. For mage and his role as a DD is Chi absolutely important. Is VERY, VERY important to have always chi. Really amazing is for example sage BT or sage mountains(I don't have it yet) I can launch ultimates or 3 spark very often. Much more often than demon and it's FACT.
More spark or ultimates=more damage per time, more mana(with spark), and faster flying in wqb:chuckle. I can play role mage much better with sage. That's my opinion.

/Groovy/ - Harshlands · March 2010

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

lol

Probably because whoever's vid you watched had no lv11 phoenix/sandstorm/every other skill.

It was Haiz.

Used Will of Phoenix often, I admit I was tempted to add it to list I posted, but it's situational spell, you need to be rather close to big group of opponents what doesn't fit playstyle of some wizards (I mean undergeared ones :P).

Sandstorm was used only in Sutra, very rare compared to basic 3.

That was only for the sake of example though, different wizards have different playstyles. I found myself using basic 3 skills more often than nukes like Sandstorm at 80-89 so I assumed I won't change my gamestyle much at end-game.

Haiz - Lost City · March 2010

My only 92 skills that are lvl 11 are stone barrier and pitfall. I'm very lazy when it comes to getting skills, and I don't really care for em much. I have all my 89 and 99 skills and that is good enough for me. I spam my pyro for the chi, gush because its the fastest skill to cast I have, and stone for my quick heavy hitting skill. I only use glacial snare on catapult pullers who are trying to rush through to slow them down a little more.

I love my phoenix and if I'm ever fighting someone up close I'll use it because it does same damage at level 10 as gush at level 11 and it has a chance of hitting another person with same casting time. I like using hailstorm too but that is a situational spell too you can say.

I don't care much for sandstorm even if I had level 11 and it hit harder. I use mostly pyro/gush/stone for the faster DPS and faster chi gain as well. Sandstorm isn't really for DPS, its just for a spike hit and when you're fighting Spectral spikes won't kill anything, it will just tick their hieros cause they all got 10k+ HP.

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver · March 2010

Haiz - Lost City wrote: »

My only 92 skills that are lvl 11 are stone barrier and pitfall. I'm very lazy when it comes to getting skills, and I don't really care for em much. I have all my 89 and 99 skills and that is good enough for me. I spam my pyro for the chi, gush because its the fastest skill to cast I have, and stone for my quick heavy hitting skill. I only use glacial snare on catapult pullers who are trying to rush through to slow them down a little more.

I love my phoenix and if I'm ever fighting someone up close I'll use it because it does same damage at level 10 as gush at level 11 and it has a chance of hitting another person with same casting time. I like using hailstorm too but that is a situational spell too you can say.

I don't care much for sandstorm even if I had level 11 and it hit harder. I use mostly pyro/gush/stone for the faster DPS and faster chi gain as well. Sandstorm isn't really for DPS, its just for a spike hit and when you're fighting Spectral spikes won't kill anything, it will just tick their hieros cause they all got 10k+ HP.

make more vids haiz, i need more inspiration to level b:sad

Kristoph - Lost City · March 2010

Haiz - Lost City wrote: »

Sandstorm isn't really for DPS, its just for a spike hit and when you're fighting Spectral spikes won't kill anything, it will just tick their hieros cause they all got 10k+ HP.

lol you'd be surprised. I've floored plenty of BMs with 8k sandstorm crits in TW. Or if they get purged 12k crits. If you use it on certain types of classes that are already being hit right after their charm ticks, or time it so that it does, their HP will drop fast. Spike damage isn't just finishing something off. Being hit by sandstorm as a HA/LA user after your charm ticks without seeing it coming = lolbye in most cases.

WitchBurner - Sanctuary · March 2010

At 101 you only crit BM's for 8k with lv.11 sandstorm?

Jesus fvcking christ... I was doing that with my requiem blade ffs.

Also Squab, people take you more seriously if you aren't calling it mages and fury, only private server nubcakes and my-en nubcakes call it that.

Kristoph - Lost City · March 2010

WitchBurner - Sanctuary wrote: »

At 101 you only crit BM's for 8k with lv.11 sandstorm?

Jesus fvcking christ... I was doing that with my requiem blade ffs.

Also Squab, people take you more seriously if you aren't calling it mages and fury, only private server nubcakes and my-en nubcakes call it that.

Either you're lying or you've never sandstormed a BM with lv11 marrow and cleric buffs or all the BMs you've hit wear pdef ornaments. The BMs we fight have the mdef of an arcane user.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

Either you're lying or you've never sandstormed a BM with lv11 marrow and cleric buffs or all the BMs you've hit wear pdef ornaments. The BMs we fight have the mdef of an arcane user.

I agree. Or BM was naked+poisoned+undined+sparked+criticsed+etc.
:-))

Haiz - Lost City · March 2010

WitchBurner - Sanctuary wrote: »

At 101 you only crit BM's for 8k with lv.11 sandstorm?

Jesus fvcking christ... I was doing that with my requiem blade ffs.

Also Squab, people take you more seriously if you aren't calling it mages and fury, only private server nubcakes and my-en nubcakes call it that.

Do you have a problem that I have played mage since MY-EN was out? Like Kristoph said, I am pure magic and have a +8 99HH weapon. My magic attack buffed has a minimum of 10k. Yet on the BM's I fight, I gush some of them for as little as 900 when they have their marrow on and are buffed. That's actually the best one actually, on average I probably do 1.5k with gush or so.

I could probably imagine sandstorm doing 8k on a BM though at level 11 because my BiD will hit them for 10~11k all the time. I really still do much prefer quick casts over longer casts, though an 8k crit is wonderful to bypass a charm to kill someone much quicker.

Helbear - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

make more vids haiz, i need more inspiration to level b:sad

I agree with Mizuoni Haiz, Your videos are brilliant you should make more and empower people to make wizards instead of fishies b:kiss

Blackpray - Heavens Tear · March 2010

I choose sage some lvls ago and I can just say BYE BYE Manapost and Charms. The saga chi and Pyrogram give me the possibility to use less mana to build up 3sparks than I get bak from 3sparking. The only problem I see is that there are nearly no Saga Wizards on my server and noone buys and opens the Skill Packs and set skills he/she got double in AH so I have nearly no Saga skills. But I would not go back and ever change to demon.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Blackpray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I choose sage some lvls ago and I can just say BYE BYE Manapost and Charms. The saga chi and Pyrogram give me the possibility to use less mana to build up 3sparks than I get bak from 3sparking. The only problem I see is that there are nearly no Saga Wizards on my server and noone buys and opens the Skill Packs and set skills he/she got double in AH so I have nearly no Saga skills. But I would not go back and ever change to demon.

I have same feeling. Not so many sage books in AH. :-( But lot of demon books.

To all those who think Sage Wiz is far more superior...

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