Squadding with a Sin

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · March 2010

So, there's a few of you actually getting up to reasonable levels without cheating and who, I hope, actually know what you're doing.

Great!

So - what do you want me to do, when I meet you?

I mean - from the very simplest "Do you want brambles or not" to the "Oh, on such and such a boss we've got this really neat trick..."

If I lure, can you catch? If everything goes horribly wrong, what are you likely to be able to do to fix it - and what can I do to help?

Hit me with your informations! Everything you wish your squadmates knew about you, please.

volst · March 2010

Go cry in the corner since the squad is gonna get wiped. b:laugh

Somebody - Raging Tide · March 2010

I'm glad someone is actually interested about our capabilities, thank you for that.

I mean - from the very simplest "Do you want brambles or not" to the "Oh, on such and such a boss we've got this really neat trick..."

Yes, bramble always helps. since we're close range it a good helper to keep the aggro away from squishies.

If I lure, can you catch? If everything goes horribly wrong, what are you likely to be able to do to fix it - and what can I do to help?

Yes, we can catch if needed. we have our tele+stun or we'll wait and immobilize the target but remember we're not a tank. so take it easy on us.

we are able to teleport to anybody within 30m range (archer range) so we can get to you fairly quick with only a 15sec cooldown (if you have lvl 10 of the teleport)
we can immobilize, sleep, stun, seal fairly easy. so we are able to keep you safe 90% of the time. when ever you do catch aggro run towards one of the tanker/sins to get it of of you (common sense)

we don't need a "lending hand" from veno's give those to the tank or anybody that asks
AMP = awesome!! (like always :P)

after this i don't know anything else that you could do.

for all you sins out there.
rib strike when u can, keep that boss slowed.
don't use shadow teleport unless you really needed. (cause of the long cool down)
keep the squishies safe.
don't be over confident about yourself.
do NOT try to aoe unless you know you can.
and make sure to tell your plans when you are going to lure + force stealth!
also don't stealth when you are running and get accidental aggro. i know its tempting but the cleric will probably heal you and get aggro because of your stealth!
keep bloodpaint on the barb/bm at all times. its not much but it helps

hope this helps

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · March 2010

Somebody - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yes, bramble always helps. since we're close range it a good helper to keep the aggro away from squishies.

So sins aren't squishy?

Somebody - Raging Tide · March 2010

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So sins aren't squishy?

ya, but we're usually less squishy then the arcane squishies
+ we have our evade dmg buffs, bloodpaint to help out

Laurrella - Dreamweaver · March 2010

As a sin (who is pretty well geared) I am able to help clear out mobs by myself with a healer fairly easily until the tank arrives do to fast damage and evading attacks. Buffed definitely helps. When everybody is there I look to help the tank kill whatever he attacking as quick as I can and also keeping an eye if anything gets past us to the others behind me. Usually that is from AOE attacks or high DD from wizzies or archers. Stun works well to keep the mob busy while the other group members reposition. Bosses are harder but just usually keep steady damage going without drawing too much aggro and if I do, shadow escape to reset back to the main tank.

I have seen some sins act like they are the tank and try to out damage everybody. Usually they fail at some point or at least look like a jerk. I think it's that kind of ego that gives us all a bad rep. I keep my eyes on what's going on, adjust as the situation changes and do my job.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · March 2010

Ok, it's sounding like I should basically treat you like BMs - as a secondary tank and DD.

Is there anything I need to NOT do? Anything different from treating you that way?

Somebody - Raging Tide · March 2010

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ok, it's sounding like I should basically treat you like BMs - as a secondary tank and DD.

Is there anything I need to NOT do? Anything different from treating you that way?

ask us to tank the same thing as a BM b:shocked
since we're LA we cant tank the same thing as they do

Heartstone - Dreamweaver · March 2010

Somebody - Raging Tide wrote: »

ask us to tank the same thing as a BM b:shocked
since we're LA we cant tank the same thing as they do

Well actually almost. not on [?] but like 90 sin can tank both FB89's no charm tick, 79 easy / solo even. 69 last 2 i woudl say no, even tho i think some sins did..

not sure to threat as second tank/bm as sin, but usually can tank most stuff..

volst · March 2010

It's all about main armor types. If one class that uses it can do it, chances are the other class that uses it can do it too. ie Archer = Sin.

Ussichu - Sanctuary · March 2010

I tanked stygean at level 84 on my sin, No barb buffs, no BM buffs, 3.1k HP and just one demon cleric XD Sins are 3rdary tanks for their attack speed debuff. Just remember some bosses are ridiculous with their physical attacks... (like fb59 -_____-)

Evict - Heavens Tear · March 2010

volst wrote: »

It's all about main armor types. If one class that uses it can do it, chances are the other class that uses it can do it too. ie Archer = Sin.

K go tank Drake and see who last longer, Archer or Sin.

Aclucius - Lost City · March 2010

Don't treat us like tanks, because we aren't that. We have the ability to tank when necessary, but we also need the squad to really know what to do. I can tank any of the bosses in BH51 easily, but it helps me and the cleric a lot more if you help by debuffing the boss. Hell, I can (from a weird TT experience) tank the drum guy in TT 1-1. It was extremely difficult, and it required me and the veno to do constant debuffs on him, but I managed it whenever her pet died and aggro went to me.

Anyways, know that if we are getting attacked by a lot of mobs, don't heal us if you are a cleric, and don't help us if you aren't sure you can take the attacks. If we die, it is our own fault. If we Shadow Escape and you die, it is your fault, but we (or at least I have) tend to take the blame for it. It sounds mean, but let us die. If we don't Shadow Escape out when we are outnumbered, either we did something stupid and took on too many mobs, or we just don't know our class.

Mako_Shiruku - Sanctuary · March 2010

Aclucius - Lost City wrote: »

Don't treat us like tanks, because we aren't that. We have the ability to tank when necessary, but we also need the squad to really know what to do. I can tank any of the bosses in BH51 easily, but it helps me and the cleric a lot more if you help by debuffing the boss. Hell, I can (from a weird TT experience) tank the drum guy in TT 1-1. It was extremely difficult, and it required me and the veno to do constant debuffs on him, but I managed it whenever her pet died and aggro went to me.

Anyways, know that if we are getting attacked by a lot of mobs, don't heal us if you are a cleric, and don't help us if you aren't sure you can take the attacks. If we die, it is our own fault. If we Shadow Escape and you die, it is your fault, but we (or at least I have) tend to take the blame for it. It sounds mean, but let us die. If we don't Shadow Escape out when we are outnumbered, either we did something stupid and took on too many mobs, or we just don't know our class.

Amen. We (The sins who actually know how to play a sin) know what we are doing, and what we are capable of.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · March 2010

Mako_Shiruku - Sanctuary wrote: »

Amen. We (The sins who actually know how to play a sin) know what we are doing, and what we are capable of.

Great. That's precisely what I am asking you.

Half of you are saying "Yes, we make great BM-style secondary tanks"
Half of you are saying "Heck no! We are squishy scaredy-cat archers!"

You're really that variable?

Laurrella - Dreamweaver · March 2010

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Great. That's precisely what I am asking you.

Half of you are saying "Yes, we make great BM-style secondary tanks"
Half of you are saying "Heck no! We are squishy scaredy-cat archers!"

You're really that variable?

I would say it's kinda a mix of the two (except for the scaredy-cat part b:chuckle ) If a sin has the skills, experience and gear they can secondary tank or primary at lower levels or with a good deal of help. But some who don't have one or two of those things will be good DD only and you shouldn't expect more from them.

When in doubt ask the sin in the group what they can do ahead of time just like you might of a BM whether they can tank. Sin is one of those classes that can be buit a couple different ways depending on the player and their bank account.

Mako_Shiruku - Sanctuary · March 2010

When needed, we can tank. I myself found out the hard way that I am able to tank Farng outside SP, so long as I have a charm. (This happened back when I was 32.)

Same thing happened in BH 39. I was able to tank Calcid, providing that the Clerics healed me. At the time I had no choice; the barb we had in squad suddenly left before he even made it into the BH. Everyone else was a Two clerics, an Archer and a Veno. Not trying to bash the archer or veno, but they couldn't take aggro from me, even when using Ultimates.. (For the record, I wasn't using chill of the deep, it ran out just before getting to Calcid.)

What I'm trying to say is, we CAN tank, just certain things. As long as it isnt a hard hittin mob, we can tank just as well as any BM or Barb.

Also, my build is Pure Dex, with ALOT of + dex and Vit items from my Axe/Fist Bm and Barb.

MagicHamsta - Lost City · March 2010

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

K go tank Drake and see who last longer, Archer or Sin.

wizard/psy/cleric last longest.....
b:chuckle

Aclucius - Lost City · March 2010

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Great. That's precisely what I am asking you.

Half of you are saying "Yes, we make great BM-style secondary tanks"
Half of you are saying "Heck no! We are squishy scaredy-cat archers!"

You're really that variable?

We can tank. That doesn't mean we should tank. I myself have been able to tank Ocean Tusker (solo), all of my BH bosses, and even drum boy in TT 1-1. That doesn't mean we should tank though, because we can die easily, more so than a Barb or Blademaster. Use us if necessary, but don't expect it of us.

Woneo - Harshlands · March 2010

Yesterday i restated from vit to pure dex, I had 6khp with 68 base vit ( my gear has alot of vit)
I could tank every boss in 79- except last 2 in 69

D/S - Heavens Tear43 · March 2010

Woneo - Harshlands wrote: »

Yesterday i restated from vit to pure dex, I had 6khp with 68 base vit ( my gear has alot of vit)
I could tank every boss in 79- except last 2 in 69

I can tank any boss up to BH 79 including Nob and Pole. I am a pure dex sin with very good gear, lots of refines and shards, but nothing too extraordinary. However, tanking Nob and Pole was very nerve racking and at any time, if the cleric failed to purfy quickly, I could have died and did in fact die once at Nob. Luckily the rest of the squad was able to jump in the water and I was the only casualty.

Anything is possible with great clerics. If they are skilled, we can tank anything. With that said, I prefer to not tank at all, although I must admit it is fun every now and then. Sometimes Barbs are hard to come by and instead of waiting forever for one, I will tell the squad that I will tank if the cleric is up for it (need lots of healing, very quick purifies and preferably 2 clerics for Nob and Pole, although I did tank them once with 1 great one).

The only reason we are better secondary tanks than BM's is our ability to hold aggro. Other than that, they are a safer tank and require less effort and MP from the healer to keep alive. A good cleric can make us look like pro tanks and we owe our tanking ability to them.

Gri - Lost City · March 2010

The simple answer is just don't squad with tideborns. There is no real advantage to having them on a squad since they are mostly just DDers with flashy skills.

Gri - Lost City · March 2010

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Great. That's precisely what I am asking you.

Half of you are saying "Yes, we make great BM-style secondary tanks"
Half of you are saying "Heck no! We are squishy scaredy-cat archers!"

You're really that variable?

Here's the thing...any class can tank certain bosses. That is all. You need HP to tank real bosses that aren't weak which is something that barbs have and BMs can have. Other than that if it's not a hard boss pretty much any class can tank it. o.0.

D/S - Heavens Tear45 · March 2010

Gri - Lost City wrote: »

The simple answer is just don't squad with tideborns. There is no real advantage to having them on a squad since they are mostly just DDers with flashy skills.

Are you saying that there is no advantage to squad with a DD? Are you a moron, or just simple? Just wondering. And is reducing the bosses attack rate by 50% really just a flashy skill? Come on, get out of here if all your going to do is spout ignorance. The rest of us are trying to help people understand our class, which is what this thread is about.

I've seen BM's get owned by Pole with good clerics, and I had to take over and did it without problems. Not to mention the fact that when a BM tanks, DD's have to gimp themselves to no end in hopes to not pull aggro and even then, a crit here and there and it's all over. Barbs are tanks, everyone else is secondary. In fact, I would take a sin over a BM tanking in most situations. Putting BM's in the same category as a barb, like you did, is rediculous and delirious. Your HP will never touch a barbs, even in a pure vit build. So dont try to lump yourself into a primary tanking class, because you are not.

Any class can tank certain bosses, this is true, well done. But like I said, I can tank ANY boss up until BH 79 and TT 1-1 to 1-3. I havent tried to tank anything else after those, but I'm sure I could. Are we here saying were the best tanks out there? Not at all, but we can be a viable option for many situations.

Not to say that I dont love BM's in my squad, I just hate fools like you in them.

Aclucius - Lost City · March 2010

Gri - Lost City wrote: »

The simple answer is just don't squad with tideborns. There is no real advantage to having them on a squad since they are mostly just DDers with flashy skills.

Yes, no advantage when an Assassin can decrease the attack rate of a boss by 50%, essentially cutting a Barb's repair costs in half in terms of armor. No advantage when combining Tangling Mire, the Veno debuff that increases damage, and the Assassin Subsea Strike which causes extreme poison, causing the target to take xx% more damage for 8 seconds. No advantage to how quickly an Assassin can get to those mobs running after the squishy cleric and stun/freeze them before they do anything to the cleric. No advantage to having an Assassin run through a bunch of mobs in stealth to get that guardian and open a door in an instance. No advantage to our ability to keep a double spark going consistently without ever having to stop based on pure skills alone. No advantage to having an Assassin with Chill of the Deep maxed and is spamming their major DD skills. No advantage to having an Assassin with Blood Paint for that Fist Blademaster.

Yeah, no advantage to squad with an Assassin. After all, they are just a DD, much like a Blademaster is just a DD, much like a Wizard is a DD, much like an Archer is a DD.

I can't speak for Psychics, but I think that if you honestly believe Assassins aren't worth being in a squad with, you obviously have little to no knowledge of how Assassins work.

RADD_RATT - Harshlands · March 2010

aclucius - Lost City wrote: »

yes, No Advantage When An Assassin Can Decrease The Attack Rate Of A Boss By 50%, Essentially Cutting A Barb's Repair Costs In Half In Terms Of Armor. No Advantage When Combining Tangling Mire, The Veno Debuff That Increases Damage, And The Assassin Subsea Strike Which Causes Extreme Poison, Causing The Target To Take Xx% More Damage For 8 Seconds. No Advantage To How Quickly An Assassin Can Get To Those Mobs Running After The Squishy Cleric And Stun/freeze Them Before They Do Anything To The Cleric. No Advantage To Having An Assassin Run Through A Bunch Of Mobs In Stealth To Get That Guardian And Open A Door In An Instance. No Advantage To Our Ability To Keep A Double Spark Going Consistently Without Ever Having To Stop Based On Pure Skills Alone. No Advantage To Having An Assassin With Chill Of The Deep Maxed And Is Spamming Their Major Dd Skills. No Advantage To Having An Assassin With Blood Paint For That Fist Blademaster.

Yeah, No Advantage To Squad With An Assassin. After All, They Are Just A Dd, Much Like A Blademaster Is Just A Dd, Much Like A Wizard Is A Dd, Much Like An Archer Is A Dd.

I Can't Speak For Psychics, But I Think That If You Honestly Believe Assassins Aren't Worth Being In A Squad With, You Obviously Have Little To No Knowledge Of How Assassins Work.

Pwned!!!!!!!

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · March 2010

Ok, ignoring the troll for a moment...

Reducing the enemy attacks by half is great from the point of view of repairs and cleric strain - but if the cleric can keep up with the full-attack-rate healing then do you actually get more damage from freeing up the cleric that way than the reflected damage you lose?

New question:
What should I *expect* from you? The way I expect a barb to tank, a cleric to heal, a venomancer to bramble and amplify, a wizard and archer to nuke the hell out of things...
What should I be asking of an assassin? What, if you fail to do, can I use to conclude that you're not really playing at your best?

Drmelvin - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So, there's a few of you actually getting up to reasonable levels without cheating and who, I hope, actually know what you're doing.

Great!

Not another one...

Using oracles and hyper exp are not cheating. They are in the game for people to use and people use them. Dont moan and complain that they are cheating because you simply cant afford them or choose not to use them.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · March 2010

Drmelvin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Using oracles and hyper exp are not cheating. They are in the game for people to use and people use them. Dont moan and complain that they are cheating because you simply cant afford them or choose not to use them.

Surprised it took this long for someone to complain about my phrasing.

Nonetheless, high level assassins have a well deserved reputation for having got there exclusively by using oracles and of not knowing how to do... well.. anything.

That's starting to change now. And I for one would like to know from those who DO know what they are doing, what that means to me.

Drmelvin - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Surprised it took this long for someone to complain about my phrasing.

Nonetheless, high level assassins have a well deserved reputation for having got there exclusively by using oracles and of not knowing how to do... well.. anything.

That's starting to change now. And I for one would like to know from those who DO know what they are doing, what that means to me.

Actually every class that has reached a high level get accused of using oracles, its not only sins. Half the clerics now don't know how to play their class and its probably the same for everyone.

Soi_fong - Raging Tide · March 2010

Here is what you can expect from a good sin who actually knows what they are doing.

Bloodpaint is a fantastic skill that will heal the melee fighters as they do damage. We can stun pretty much everything (i find bosses quite difficult to stun). And what we can't stun we can freeze so they dont run after the spell casters. For those annoying magic AoE guys, we can also silence them. And Throatcut has a fast enough cool down I can keep silencing something often (draw back is they will some times run away after being silenced...) Also for higher lvl sins, we can keep something bleeding non-stop. (currently my bleed lasts 9 sec and the cool down is 8 sec. and i have not increased if for a while.)

Lastly, a good sin know how to stay alive. With the addition of Second Wind from our genie, blood paint, a few pots, and Deaden Nerves we have a high survival rate. I don't die that often at all.

Squadding with a Sin

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