Squadding with a Sin

ACLucius - Archosaur

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ok, ignoring the troll for a moment...

Reducing the enemy attacks by half is great from the point of view of repairs and cleric strain - but if the cleric can keep up with the full-attack-rate healing then do you actually get more damage from freeing up the cleric that way than the reflected damage you lose?


New question:
What should I *expect* from you? The way I expect a barb to tank, a cleric to heal, a venomancer to bramble and amplify, a wizard and archer to nuke the hell out of things...
What should I be asking of an assassin? What, if you fail to do, can I use to conclude that you're not really playing at your best?

Expect Assassins to do their debuff(s), provide auxiliary tanking if the Barb/Blademaster dies and there is no other Barb/Blademaster to replace them, and provide good damage. Should the Cleric die, it is the job of the Assassin to try to gain aggro of the boss and lure it as far away from the squad as possible. We might die, but part of our job is to try to save to squad when possible, and if we can, Shadow Escape once the boss is out of range of the squad and will reset. So once you see that Cleric's HP hit zero, unless you are POSITIVE that your pet can tank fine with just your heals, stop attacking and let the Assassin gain aggro. While doing that, run in whatever direction you can to get far from where the Assassin will probably lead the boss, just to make it easier on them and help keep them from dying.

If you are on a boss without a strong AoE and the Assassin (as many do) has Tangling Mire, try to time your increased damage skills with theirs. As an example, whenever I use Tangling Mire, I also use Subsea strike and then get back my 2 sparks for a double spark so I can do extremely high damage (usually 8k criticals with normal attack). If you amplify damage at the same time as that, the boss will take an extremely large amount of damage over a short period of time. Using these skills combined with a Venomancer's amp skill, I have seen Rankar die within 45 seconds (had no magic DD's besides Venomancer) due to the extreme DPS each person could apply.

Expect Assassins to save the squishy classes whenever possible. Usually we can always teleport to the mob, so it shouldn't be a problem reaching them. So if you draw aggro and an Assassin heads straight towards the mob, run towards the Assassin and don't attack the mob after that unless you know exactly what skill they used. Sometimes I use Tackling Slash causing them to freeze, sometimes I use Deep Sting to sleep them. If you attack them while they are asleep, you cancel it and it just wasted our efforts.

If an Assassin is fighting two+ mobs all at once, and the rest of the squad is busy with their own, DON'T HELP! We have our Deep Sting, two stun skills, and Tackling Slash. An experienced Assassin will sleep one, freeze the other, move out of range and kill one of them. If they can't do that, they will Shadow Escape and reset the mobs. Attacking when they plan to SE will only draw aggro to you.

If you have the Assassin saying they will go kill a guardian in a BH, let them. Any build of Assassin should be able to easily take on any mob in a BH without problem. Our Blood Paint, spark/double spark, and Second Wind will keep us alive. If it doesn't, it is a failure of our own.

Basically, if you can't afford to help or don't think you can, then don't help the Assassin. We have more than enough ways to deal with multiple mobs in multiple situations, so don't worry about us too much unless you can do so safely. If the Assassin dies in such a situation, then it is their own fault. However, if you are having an Assassin do the job of a tank, treat it just as it is, a non tanking class tanking. We will need any help you can provide when doing the job of a tank. This means debuffs, heals, support, shared aggro (especially with your pet). I don't tank because I am good for tanking, I do it because it is necessary at the given time.

I am not going to say that every single Assassin out there will know all of these, but this is how our class works. You should always check to see if they are able to do these things before you start the instance so you know what to expect and how to work with it.

Kyrael - Dreamweaver

I was going to type out an extended reply to this, but it seems that ACLucius has beaten me to it. They pretty much covered everything I was gonna say, and in great detail. I'm standing by their words.

Evict - Heavens Tear

i leik appulz lul

Yarly - Harshlands

I'll replay so maybe you can get a feel for the different opinions sins have about their abilities.



Just remember assassins can only take 1 mob at a time. If its 1 mob, we can handle much better than a bm even, but more than 1 and you will start to see our hp go down.

Hopefully you have a good sin in your squad and you can trust him to crowd control. The instant teleports (teleport stun), stuns, and immobilize skills can protect you better than any other class.

I prefer not to be brambled. I do not want agro in a squad as a sin.

Please dont think we are being showy during normal mobs, or lazy during boss fights. Its how we have to fight on normal or elite mobs. The bosses we are just trying our hardest not to steal agro. The barb literally needs to be 10 levels higher before we can spam sparks. And a demon fist bm wont hold agro on a 80 sin, its never worked for me no matter how many times they say it will.

Aclucius - Lost City

Yarly - Harshlands wrote: »

I'll replay so maybe you can get a feel for the different opinions sins have about their abilities.



Just remember assassins can only take 1 mob at a time. If its 1 mob, we can handle much better than a bm even, but more than 1 and you will start to see our hp go down.

Hopefully you have a good sin in your squad and you can trust him to crowd control. The instant teleports (teleport stun), stuns, and immobilize skills can protect you better than any other class.

I prefer not to be brambled. I do not want agro in a squad as a sin.

Please dont think we are being showy during normal mobs, or lazy during boss fights. Its how we have to fight on normal or elite mobs. The bosses we are just trying our hardest not to steal agro. The barb literally needs to be 10 levels higher before we can spam sparks. And a demon fist bm wont hold agro on a 80 sin, its never worked for me no matter how many times they say it will.

I agree with all of it except only being able to take on one mob at a time. We can take more than one, it just takes more skill and quicker reactions than it does for one. See the fourth paragraph of my previous reply if you want.

Azzazin - Dreamweaver

For TT, I prefer not to be brambled; if I am brambled and steal aggro for whatever reason, then having bramble in is like a death sentence. IN all other cases, I'm fine having it in, however.

I found a little trick for aoeing 3-4 mobs @ once, provided you are buffed with cleric/bms/barb buffs (avoid ticking charm if you use one).

1) buff with focused mind & wolf emblem.
2) use windpush to round up 3-4 physical melee mobs
3) double spark just before they all start hitting you, resist a few attacks
4) inner harmony
5) pick mob, power dash, then earthen rift, and watch the big numbers (crits @ least on 1/2 the mobs usually) fly. NOTE: Because you have 3-4 mobs on you, earthen rift channeling gets sometimes gets cancelled a few times, jam down the hotkey for it till it goes through.
6) pick the mobs (double spark should still be in @ this point) that earthen rift critted on, and tab through them in quick order to finish them off

Annnnyways Oh! Oh, I need to post this here, way too many 'sins don't know this.

--Dealing with physical melee only mobs--
1) tackling slash
2) let mob shift, then move into the little circle that marks the spot where the mob touches the ground; it CANNOT touch you! For instance, in bh69, I go and take out guardian #1 or #2 like so:
-go near mob, double spark when it notices me & resist its first attack
-tackling slash, what for mob to do its little 'readjust'
-move into the inner circle of mob and use normal attacks to kill without taking any dmg
-when slash runs off, you can use rising dragon, double spark, and, as soon as tackling slash comes back (might even use deep sting in the time while waiting) repeat the process till mob dead



-Azzazin

Neko_Natsume - Heavens Tear

thnx for the info almost rarely squad with sins ^^

dalanao

Im happy to see that many Assassins know how their class works .


I Agree with everything up there, (Aclucius ur awesome lol).

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Let me add something lol, remember... a Good Assassin is always running around with a bow.
Not having a bow is just stupid as hell. It is very useful, example... u can take out guards in bh 59 from distance...just double spark and watch the 13-15k crit on ur screen.
Even better on bosses, if you don't have any lower level daggers, use a bow...works like a charm...
A good sin will always wait around 30 sec before he starts attacking the boss that a barb just started to tank. He will let him build some more aggro...and if the Assassin knows he will steal aggro anyway ( happend me a few times ), he will keep using a bow...dont question, dont call him noob.
Even a better assassin, he will use skill which reduces the targets attack rate by 50%...if its maxed, what could beat a skill like that on bosses? Sure is one damn reason to keep squad with a Assassin, you will see him running back and forward every 30 sec to help the tanker survive the day...and also reduce the repairs bill ...Also a good assassin will use subsea strike IF he feels for it, i to be honest...im lazy, i rather double spark with my bow.b:laugh

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What (Azzazin) Said, on some mobs...you can immobolize them..making them unable to move, and you just run in and stand in the same spot like the mob is at...and just attack it and say b:bye to that poor thing lol.

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Most Assassin prefer to use double spark more often than spam using skills....
Im one of these Double sparking Sin, its just great lol...

//// /// ///
Like someone said earlier..if tanker happens to die and a Assassin gets aggro.. dont try to steal it from him. Another good assassin will tell the squad that he will run with the mob far enough and stealth so it resets.
This will most likely save the whole squad, be thankful for that.

Im sure i forgot to mention something, but nevermind..another Assassin will think of it for me lol.

Remember, Assassins best friend is stealthb:victory.

BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear

I'm not quite sure if i agree with the "barb has to be 10 lvls higher so u can go full out"
I usually go full out from the start, sparking and critting. if the aggro switches to me i just reset with SE, after that repeating same procedure...works great so far.

PinkSuccubuS - Lost City

ok cleric here and i for one wont EVER let a sin or anybody except barb or bm or wiz at some bosses TANK well psy can on mag bosses but SIN come on.

Fine u like flashy skill pure crith sure we all do BUT i prefer having u as dds and nothing MORE unless u show me u have some deccent epic gear wish makes u cash shopper and well then who cant tank why then so NOPE.

plz play ur class as it is intended l

Skimi - Dreamweaver

PinkSuccubuS - Lost City wrote: »

ok cleric here and i for one wont EVER let a sin or anybody except barb or bm or wiz at some bosses TANK well psy can on mag bosses but SIN come on.

Fine u like flashy skill pure crith sure we all do BUT i prefer having u as dds and nothing MORE unless u show me u have some deccent epic gear wish makes u cash shopper and well then who cant tank why then so NOPE.

plz play ur class as it is intended l

LMAO
there r so many bosses what dds end to tank cuz party can't find barb. bms and venos cant hold agro from dds, if before it was only archer and wizzie then now psys and sins r really good agro stealers too. i on archer steal agro so much that i tend to tank every mob in cave, i prolly have higher repair bill than all bms together in squad. and when veno pulls a boss and bm sleeps then ranged dd will be the one who will start smack boss to save veno, after that bms just can't take agro away from me and if takes then only for short time then i just end up tanking boss too.

and i really hate when many venos/bms decide to tank bosses and will squad with dds and lowbie cleric or no cleric at all(if veno tanks). if u want a veno/bm tank then fill squad with more venos/bms or barbs w/e doesn't deal high dmg.
and seriously i have never seen sins/psys stealing agros from barbs. maybe i just have played with good barbs. mostly i hear barbs only saying that demon archers steals agro from them and they don't have problems with other classes. So im not sure should sins rly need to use bows everywere.

and ya i still get confused should i bramble sins, because i never bramble archers and i don't really like when my archer gets bramble too.

and to Yarly
how much mobs you can handle on yourself depends on cleric healing, charm+good cleric lets you hold 3-4 mobs(without +dmg, sacrificial asault effects), only charm might be 2 mobs, without charm 1 lol

Aclucius - Lost City

PinkSuccubuS - Lost City wrote: »

ok cleric here and i for one wont EVER let a sin or anybody except barb or bm or wiz at some bosses TANK well psy can on mag bosses but SIN come on.

Fine u like flashy skill pure crith sure we all do BUT i prefer having u as dds and nothing MORE unless u show me u have some deccent epic gear wish makes u cash shopper and well then who cant tank why then so NOPE.

plz play ur class as it is intended l

I don't even need to use "epic gear" to tank as an Assassin. All I need is a competent Cleric who knows how to purify and spam IH. I will never be as good of a tank as a Barb is, but every time I have a Blademaster tanking it scares me because they don't know how to spam Stream Strike and keep aggro. If they don't have this skill at a decent level and spam it, all it takes is me getting two or three crits from regular attacks after waiting till the boss is down to 3/4 hp before even attacking, and I get aggro.

If an Assassin has NPC gear equal to their level and they tank in a BH (with the exception of maybe a very few bosses), if they do die I can say from experience that either someone managed to steal aggro and got the party wiped, or the Cleric didn't do what they needed to when it comes to healing.

I've said, we need to be treated as DD's, but we CAN tank when we are needed to. I don't like to tank personally because that skyrockets my repair bills, the reason why I didn't choose a Barb in the first place. However, if you want to say that we need to play our class as intended, then you need to keep to Barbs for all tanking and not let any other class do it, including Blademasters, Wizards, and Psychics. Magic boss? Well, better find that rare Arcane build Barb.

PinkSuccubuS - Lost City

i actually do and u knews as me that at high lvs CLERIC dont go on random partys.
wish mean we dont go unless its a barb tanking purely cos he is a tank from the start.

maybe its me but i will never admit a sin 2 say HEY i can tank so can SIN tank
cos it gives BAD impression 2 the community and noobie ppl wont learn and i will die less.

i play cleric cos cleric is needed so i expect athers do same and play cos of need over
fun cos BH TT FB is how we lv not pking .

my 2 cent

BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear

Kinda stupid, don't you think? If u want every class to play only their role we won't get anywhere with it. You have to be flexible and if you are able to tank a boss no matter what class you are, the you should. The cleric only needs to keep you alive which shouldn't be a problem unless you have so low Hp that the cleric cannot keep up with the healing, but then again if that is the case, you are obviously not suited to tank this boss.

And could you elaborate the point

i actually do

, cause i am quite sure you answered with this to his statement

However, if you want to say that we need to play our class as intended, then you need to keep to Barbs for all tanking and not let any other class do it, including Blademasters, Wizards, and Psychics.

Tho in the previous post you wrote that you are willing to let other classes like wizzis tank(who are obviously DDs) or BMs.

And could you please write a bit more understandable. I am having trouble reading your posts, tho english is only my 3th language so it might be natural

PinkSuccubuS - Lost City

only that ur all giving bad impression on who tanks and dont tank.

sin is made 2 we a DD so please dont give ppl the impression a SIN can tank 2 new ppl
startinng out.

see i play my part in this i HEAL/RES/BUFF why can u do the same.

Evict - Heavens Tear

Aclucius - Lost City wrote: »

I don't even need to use "epic gear" to tank as an Assassin. All I need is a competent Cleric who knows how to purify and spam IH. I will never be as good of a tank as a Barb is, but every time I have a Blademaster tanking it scares me because they don't know how to spam Stream Strike and keep aggro. If they don't have this skill at a decent level and spam it, all it takes is me getting two or three crits from regular attacks after waiting till the boss is down to 3/4 hp before even attacking, and I get aggro.

If an Assassin has NPC gear equal to their level and they tank in a BH (with the exception of maybe a very few bosses), if they do die I can say from experience that either someone managed to steal aggro and got the party wiped, or the Cleric didn't do what they needed to when it comes to healing.

I've said, we need to be treated as DD's, but we CAN tank when we are needed to. I don't like to tank personally because that skyrockets my repair bills, the reason why I didn't choose a Barb in the first place. However, if you want to say that we need to play our class as intended, then you need to keep to Barbs for all tanking and not let any other class do it, including Blademasters, Wizards, and Psychics. Magic boss? Well, better find that rare Arcane build Barb.

This.

/thread

Psudeotrophe - Dreamweaver

Im in LA and I can tank just fine O.o

Laurrella - Dreamweaver

PinkSuccubuS - Lost City wrote: »

see i play my part in this i HEAL/RES/BUFF why can u do the same.

Maybe you would do better in groups if you changed the order to BUFF/HEAL/RES LOL j/k

I think the general consensus is that a sin has a definite place in a squad for DD but can be flexible to tank if needed with a strong supporting group because it is difficult at times to find barbs or clerics for that matter.

StainedBlade - Heavens Tear

Aclucious + dalanao said everything I was going to say. Good job you two.

-Flop Flop- I'm a fish

Aclucius - Lost City

PinkSuccubuS - Lost City wrote: »

only that ur all giving bad impression on who tanks and dont tank.

sin is made 2 we a DD so please dont give ppl the impression a SIN can tank 2 new ppl
startinng out.

see i play my part in this i HEAL/RES/BUFF why can u do the same.

As I said, we are not made to tank. However, we can be an auxiliary tank. If the Barb dies because the Cleric had a spike and was unable to heal for 10 seconds, you have to hope that the aggro switches to the Assassin if there is no Blademaster in the squad. If so, the Assassin is then the tank until either the Barb is resurrected or until the boss is dead. If you decide to not heal the Assassin at all, you will cause the entire party to get wiped because if I were the tank and not getting healed, I'd say **** it and Shadow Escape out and let it kill the party so the Cleric can learn. The only time I ever am willing to die to prevent a party wipe is if the Cleric dies, in which case I do my best to take aggro and lure the boss as far away from the party as I possibly can, and then Shadow Escape if I survive.

All classes have to be able to do another job besides their own. If they can't, then once the Barb dies, everyone dies.

Yarly - Harshlands

I'm surprised some of you have never heard of a sin having trouble with agro on a barb. Its not like once in a while or once a day, its every single mob and boss in every squad I've ever been in since 70 or so. Every sin in the bh's we do has the same problem.

higher accuracy, higher crit rate (above 60% at times with skill), higher damage, higher crit damage (buff), higher attack speed (besides fist), unending spark, and +30 att level skill (if you use the buff)

Why do you think sins can still win PQ by 3-4 times the score of second place and skip the first and last sections of the quest?

Iyasumi - Raging Tide

Aclucius - Lost City wrote: »

I don't even need to use "epic gear" to tank as an Assassin. All I need is a competent Cleric who knows how to purify and spam IH.

i have a quick question;
Should a Lvl 64 Cleric with lvl8 Purify and lvl10 IH be able to keep a Lvl 69 Sin (tanking) alive in BH51? this is my 1st caracter, so i'll admit i make mistakes, but spamming IH on Rankar? Come on! even i can do that. so what went wrong?
Everything was going fine until Rankar hit the halfway mark. It looked like a crit to me, but the sin wasn't keen on conversation so i couldn't find out what happened

i love the diversity in the game (Assassins being able to tank and all), but from what lvl can you accept a tanking Sin? and what lvl does the cleric need to be at in order to keep up?

what other advice can anyone give me regarding this? i don't like being badmouthed by a squad, but if i deserved it, pls tell me what i can do to improve b:surrender

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Iyasumi - Raging Tide wrote: »

what other advice can anyone give me regarding this?

Don't necro. This thread is from March of 2010.

Your answer is it really depends more on the sins hp pool and physical defenses than your heals. Rankar has a physical aoe and a pretty hard physical attack. The sin should go in with Focused Mind and keep Rib Strike up and he should be fine. Having a person in squad that's decent at interupting can prevent the aoe, but for most squads thats too much to ask for. Bosses attack at a rate of .66 aps or something so your heals will usually fill the tanks hp fully between attacks, but they'll sometimes combine an aoe followed right behind with a physical attack that can one-two knockout your tank.

It's been a while since I had to heal at level in BH51 but I used to just bb at Rankar. I've read some threads saying to bb, others saying don't bb. Part of the reason is bb can be knocked down and leave your tank with no stack of heals, another reason is its 15m range means the cleric has to be able to survive the physical aoe, where if the cleric was IHing they could heal outside of it. Personally, I like the damage reduction of the skill. Even if the tank could handle the aoe some classes need the bb to reduce the damage they recieve so they can survive and dd.

In the future, best to start your own thread rather than piggy backing on others.

Iyasumi - Raging Tide

Ty for the reply, and sorry 'bout the necro, i'll bother reading the forum rules next time...