Pure Mag the best build for PvE?
MANray_ - Sanctuary
Posts: 2,311 Arc User
Now, lately i've been hearing a bit too much of the usual crowd hailing pure mag as the ultimate veno build for PvE. I strongly disagree, and would like to make my case for something more balanced (in between the two extremes of pure mag and full vit) as being the best choice for AA.
1. Pure Mag is more expensive. At high levels it will require heavier investment in refines/shards because of HP. This also impacts costs of upgrading intermediate equipment. Another expense comes from sockets since, unlike balanced, pure can little afford to entirely forego the use of citrines, meaning less room for garnets. The small savings from transfusing HP into MP should account for a more frequent need for heals.
2. Pure is more fragile. While lower HP has been claimed an advantage by some, it simply means less tolerance towards damage that a balanced build using the same equipment. This also means pure is less forgiving of mistakes (for both the player and other members of the squad) and not as reliable when handling unforeseen situations.
3. Pure is not as flexible. Since it needs to add both phys res and hp through gear, choices for gearing are more limited. Diminishing returns makes it less profitable to work on increasing mag through equipment, while the build's focus means it starts working on other stats from scratch.
Pure is harder to level for those venos which actually do get hit by mobs (ironically easier with a high damage output). I've never been to one perpetuate myths that are based on bragging to other classes, such as "venos don't use pots". A lot of us actually do. The idea of pure mag being better for PvE comes down to pet heal. It's only a relatively small part of the veno playerbase that actually soloes those high level instances which require channeling gear and a very high pet heal to keep an herc alive. For the majority, leveling through BH runs, an 8 mag or 7 mag build may actually significantly increase survival. Better tolerance to AoE, less reliance on refines/shards, better ability to deal with respawns/multiple mobs. These are all advantages that newbies may be missing on by taking on a pure mag build and being forced to rely on their pet not as a tool, but as a crutch.
I've always thought full vit too much of a compromise. But pure is an extreme as well. It may shine for some venos but i think is more trouble than is worth for most. And really, while a lot of venos admit to a bit of vit in their posts it seems the only advice given to lowbies is pure mag for PvE.
1. Pure Mag is more expensive. At high levels it will require heavier investment in refines/shards because of HP. This also impacts costs of upgrading intermediate equipment. Another expense comes from sockets since, unlike balanced, pure can little afford to entirely forego the use of citrines, meaning less room for garnets. The small savings from transfusing HP into MP should account for a more frequent need for heals.
2. Pure is more fragile. While lower HP has been claimed an advantage by some, it simply means less tolerance towards damage that a balanced build using the same equipment. This also means pure is less forgiving of mistakes (for both the player and other members of the squad) and not as reliable when handling unforeseen situations.
3. Pure is not as flexible. Since it needs to add both phys res and hp through gear, choices for gearing are more limited. Diminishing returns makes it less profitable to work on increasing mag through equipment, while the build's focus means it starts working on other stats from scratch.
Pure is harder to level for those venos which actually do get hit by mobs (ironically easier with a high damage output). I've never been to one perpetuate myths that are based on bragging to other classes, such as "venos don't use pots". A lot of us actually do. The idea of pure mag being better for PvE comes down to pet heal. It's only a relatively small part of the veno playerbase that actually soloes those high level instances which require channeling gear and a very high pet heal to keep an herc alive. For the majority, leveling through BH runs, an 8 mag or 7 mag build may actually significantly increase survival. Better tolerance to AoE, less reliance on refines/shards, better ability to deal with respawns/multiple mobs. These are all advantages that newbies may be missing on by taking on a pure mag build and being forced to rely on their pet not as a tool, but as a crutch.
I've always thought full vit too much of a compromise. But pure is an extreme as well. It may shine for some venos but i think is more trouble than is worth for most. And really, while a lot of venos admit to a bit of vit in their posts it seems the only advice given to lowbies is pure mag for PvE.
Post edited by MANray_ - Sanctuary on
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Comments
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First I would like to say who I am (somewhat). I have played since start of closed beta, i have played all classes exept tideborn (wich don't belong ingame IMO). I have played about 90% of my time veno, all my main on 6 servers are venos (53 chars in total).
My first veno was a bit try and error starting up, and big error was putting in 40 dex instead of 20. b:surrender Then I got lots of high lvl veno friends and i benefit from their experience. Of things my veno friends regret not doing was 1 thing very clear, almost all high lvl venos regret not going PURE MAG (for PvE atleast). So ofcourse after that I made sure all my venos went PURE MAG. Now I can tell you looking back if I made a wise desicion. I do believe I did for the following reasons (I totally see this is not for all type of players, especially not for PvP). I have venos with herc and venos without, it works for both equally well, i die once a week (and I play alot) also with no herc veno, even thou I have only the 5 start points in vit, and no citrines in armour yet. b:victory
1. I can solo dungeons and bosses way earlier with PURE MAG build (and earn lots of cash this way as an added bonus).
2. I can with my -21% channeling compete with and BM or archer in damage dealing DD (be careful cause you draw aggro from higher lvl barbs than yourself). b:shocked
3. As stated before, dieing has little to do with gear or HP stats, you can easily avoid dieing with experience and skill based playing.
Hope this was helpful, and good luck with picking your playing style. Call me and I run you through dungeons safely and efficient on my venos. b:heart
PS: Don't forget to use ranged pets, this way you can heal them outside bosses aoe.b:heart C. G. C. b:heart
- a guild/faction on many servers, where ethics and behaviour actually matters and makes a differense
b:pleased
facebook.com/group.php?gid=22920649068
pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=3483610 -
^ b:surrender I am one of those venomancer who regret not doing pure magic.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sorry i speak engrish b:chuckle
Nickname doesn't have anything to do with sailor but related to a folklore
Use search, it was your best friends to avoid many suffering in internet...0 -
1. Pure is not expensive. My main used to be a lvl 95 veno and she had TT80 weapon and TT70 everything else unrefined with crappy gems. Still able to 2-3 shot those lvl 95? spiders in Avalanche since lvl 80's with the aid of a nix. Also was able to solo Squad TT3-1 when I reached the required level. There weren't many players doing 3-1 at that time and I made a nice chunk of change.
2. It maybe more fragile but I hardly ever die because I know how to avoid getting into bad situations. With a HP charm equipped, death is very very rare. And a Gold HP charm can last me months when you utilize your HP/MP regain and soul transfusion.
3. Crappy under-level equipments and I do just fine.
4. BH's are at least 10 levels behind a character's level. My veno solo'ed FB79 at 75 and tanked FB89 way earlier than lvl 90. So, BHs are no problem. For me, pure mage is about the high damage output, better pet heal is an added bonus.
I used to grind with nix so I rarely gain argo. If I grind with a normal pet, I have to watch my damage. Even if I do gain argo, the most I'll take is one hit and the mob dies from me nuking it. And since late level mobs are mostly magic users at a distance, it really doesn't hurt much when you're an arcane user.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Making "non-trash-talkers" show their true color. RAGE ON! b:laugh0 -
I don't ever regret going pure magic. I have 300 base mag and my damage is just fine. I steal agro from barbs when I try.
Demon Barb: "I dare anyone to steal agro from me, you won't be able to."
Me: *sage spark* *dies from stealing agro*b:cry
Citrines and Garnets, I tank bosses in foxform.Main characters
Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
Sage Barbarian Malego - 910 -
Thanks to everyone for your replies.
@Born; Profitable soloing depends on having an herc, without it you really depend on luck to turn a profit and it may be argued that grinding can be more effective. And are you comparing your dps with that of Archers/BMs stacking interval gear equivalent to 21% channeling? I disagree that dying has little to do with gears, try doing a couple of TT runs with 5x npc armor. Higher HP does mean better survival regardless of skill.
@Moon; They say hindsight is 20/20 but i really can't argue with that.
@Roid; Thanks for being punctual in addressing my points.
1. You must admit a lvl 95 with an 80 wep and 70 armor is deffinitively undergeared. It does mean you weren't taking full advantage of your build's potential. A balanced build should handle doing the same things with an equally geared/skilled player even if they might need an extra hit to nuke things. And better HP should still mean better odds for coming out alive at the same expense.
2. Yes, avoiding bad situations is a part of any player's work, but being able to take an extra hit or two means better odds for survival if you're skilled. I would say an HP charm seems entirely unnecessary for PvE unless you're doing rebirth. If it lasts months then it means you're playing around having it tick which probably does affect your efficiency.
3. Most veno builds can get away with bad gear for PvE. IMO it hardly makes an argument for any build as having better performance.
@Zoe; At your level you should be getting close to 400 mag with a pure build. If you're tanking bosses in Fox that same level venos can't handle is because of high shards/refines not your build.0 -
If you suck at action games (who's gonna admit that?), aren't easily made bored, like to waste consumables: go with the vit build. b:chuckleBe kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0
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Born_Again_ - Sanctuary wrote: »First I would like to say who I am (somewhat). I have played since start of closed beta, i have played all classes exept tideborn (wich don't belong ingame IMO). I have played about 90% of my time veno, all my main on 6 servers are venos (53 chars in total).
Try real life too, fresh air and sunlight aren't bad things.
you have 17 more characters than having one of each original character type on every server. You've surpassed an unhealthy fascination, and surpassed obsession. I would seek professional help for your mania if I were you.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »I don't ever regret going pure magic. I have 300 base mag and my damage is just fine. I steal agro from barbs when I try.
Demon Barb: "I dare anyone to steal agro from me, you won't be able to."
Me: *sage spark* *dies from stealing agro*b:cry
Citrines and Garnets, I tank bosses in foxform.
Are you sure you only have 300 base mag? I have 348 base magic and I am not pure magic. With gear I have 427 magic.Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0 -
350 base mag and 137 vit (vit with gear on, going to 200 i wish) and i can do all bosses that a pure mag can solo and even more, those that aoe and pure mag likes to avoid them. beat that. pure mag being the best is a misconception imo, all you need even as heavy veno is good -channeling gear, that is all. -channeling gear is way more important for venos that your extra mag. if you already can heal a little more than half of herc hp what do you need more than that except extra speed on doing it?
show me a veno that cant tank fb79 or fb89 or other soloable bosses? show me a pure mag veno that enjoy soloing drum/soulbashier or feng. show me a pure mag that enjoy doing fb99, TT more than 3-1, ancient evil, lunar glade.0 -
If you suck at action games (who's gonna admit that?), aren't easily made bored, like to waste consumables: go with the vit build. b:chuckle
You really aren't much of a gamer if you can compare any build a pet class can have in an MMO with "action" games like FPS. "Boring" is relative, long hours spent soloing instances could be considered such by some. A balanced build shouldn't really use much more consumables than a pure, playstyle is a bigger factor.
Any advantage a pure build would have over an 8 mag is just nickel and diming anyway...0 -
350 base mag and 137 vit (vit with gear on, going to 200 i wish) and i can do all bosses that a pure mag can solo and even more, those that aoe and pure mag likes to avoid them. beat that. pure mag being the best is a misconception imo, all you need even as heavy veno is good -channeling gear, that is all. -channeling gear is way more important for venos that your extra mag. if you already can heal a little more than half of herc hp what do you need more than that except extra speed on doing it?
show me a veno that cant tank fb79 or fb89 or other soloable bosses? show me a pure mag veno that enjoy soloing drum/soulbashier or feng. show me a pure mag that enjoy doing fb99, TT more than 3-1, ancient evil, lunar glade.
What about a pure mage with -channel? Venos that enjoy soloing drum/soulbashier or feng? You must enjoy wasting charm. I'm sure plenty of pure veno can solo them but why? You lose more than you gain.0 -
blindeyesniper wrote: »What about a pure mage with -channel? Venos that enjoy soloing drum/soulbashier or feng? You must enjoy wasting charm. I'm sure plenty of pure veno can solo them but why? You lose more than you gain.
What about a hybrid build with -channel?
As long as your magic is high enough to complete-heal your pet on every cast (and mine is - even with, roughly, 8 magic per level) then any higher only helps on the damage dealing front.0 -
blindeyesniper wrote: »What about a pure mage with -channel? Venos that enjoy soloing drum/soulbashier or feng? You must enjoy wasting charm. I'm sure plenty of pure veno can solo them but why? You lose more than you gain.
what the above poster said
and..
i lose a tiny bit from what i gain. im sure pure mag cant solo them (especially at the lvl that it seems like they enjoy doing it) since even i have to improve a little more my gear for drum 1-3 or lure shooting aur. another thing is, heavy venos with good channeling gear can do them too.0 -
a pure mag with - channel neck/belt is going to miss out on alot of defense, i think thats counter productive on some bosses, while itd help on non-aoe ones, it doesnt make you survive things like mountains finger or rancid venerator very easily.
i could see a vit arcane with the extra hp buffer being better suited for those kinds of bosses. back when my gear was average, i had 1700 def without pdef acces, aoes hit for ~2.2k. without that extra hp i would have had my charm go off. leech worked just fine.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
advice to fledgling archers:
Going sage is like drunken sex, at first she may look good, but when you wake up the next morning; you'll look at her and go WHAT HAVE I DONE.0 -
IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »Are you sure you only have 300 base mag? I have 348 base magic and I am not pure magic. With gear I have 427 magic.
Admittedly I haven't even logged on for awhile so I'm not sure what my stats are anymore.b:laughMain characters
Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
Sage Barbarian Malego - 910 -
Even me at lvl81 can solo Drum in 1-2 without hitting charm. I just Heal - heal - leech - heal - heal - leech - heal - heal - leech.
I must admit I cant do that at Soul
, I need a few lvls more and I can manage there too (now I need to spamheal there and live on pots/charm).
In 1-1 Drum is easy, but 1-2 you need to look out when he goes using his magic atk (you can see it under his feet). Just leech, and when he's casting his mag.atk only spam heal. With good channelgear (15% + ) you can easily heal your pet 2x before his casting is done, and your herc will be full hp before his mag.atk comes. So just be cautious. Leech as much as possible but stop when he starts casting.
If thats possible at lvl81 in 1-2, I quess I can do 1-3 too at lvl85-86.
Pure mage FTW !! (also channelgear ftw)0 -
nope, solo FB caves with a Glacial Walker will get you tons of cash REAL FASTMANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »@Born; Profitable soloing depends on having an herc
yes I doMANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »And are you comparing your dps with that of Archers/BMs stacking interval gear equivalent to 21% channeling?
done that, if i die in TT with crappy armour, I know what went wrong and don't die next time, never a problem if squad works like its suppose to. Most of my deaths comes from other squad members making mistakes, and me trying to rescue them geronimo style, it's fun to die like that.MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »I disagree that dying has little to do with gears, try doing a couple of TT runs with 5x npc armor
PS: Did I mention I never use charms? And use perhaps 1 pot a month? (I even get income for selling all my pots) b:laugh
I have to disagree with you mostly here, skill is 99% of survivalMANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »Higher HP does mean better survival regardless of skill b:heart C. G. C. b:heart
- a guild/faction on many servers, where ethics and behaviour actually matters and makes a differense
b:pleased
facebook.com/group.php?gid=22920649068
pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=3483610 -
MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »Any advantage a pure build would have over an 8 mag is just nickel and diming anyway...
Does the 1 vit give you enough health?
Just wondering because it doesn't seem like enough to make a difference from pure magic to me.
I'm currently trying to decide my restat from LA to either 8 magic or pure and am curious about the amount of health difference at level 50-60ish.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
1 vit for veno is 12 hp. 10 vit 120 hp... and so on
funny thing is that i have many fb79 and fb89 molds to sell for 100k-300kish coins and rarely found someone to buyBorn_Again_ - Sanctuary wrote: »nope, solo FB caves with a Glacial Walker will get you tons of cash REAL FAST0 -
I've got, uh... 48 vit.
That's an extra 576 extra vit, which is pretty much one hit from a monster that I'd not be able to survive otherwise.
It's not a HUGE boost, but it's nice.0 -
Solo FB runs for molds were a lot more lucrative before they added Bounty Hunter quests. 79 is particularly bad because people in their 80s and 90s get it. At this point, probably close to half the server is in that level range.funny thing is that i have many fb79 and fb89 molds to sell for 100k-300kish coins and rarely found someone to buy0 -
Born_Again_ - Sanctuary wrote: »nope, solo FB caves with a Glacial Walker will get you tons of cash REAL FAST
FB soloing is not as effective as grinding unless you get a mold. Drop rates aren't good enough is worth it IMO. Besides, after 51 you can't solo all bosses without a herc unless you have a level difference greater than the BH the instance corresponds to. Also, because of the current leveling pace, demand has dropped for low to mid level molds.
yes I do
I very much doubt it. Care to share your build/dps?
done that, if i die in TT with crappy armour, I know what went wrong and don't die next time, never a problem if squad works like its suppose to. Most of my deaths comes from other squad members making mistakes, and me trying to rescue them geronimo style, it's fun to die like that.
PS: Did I mention I never use charms? And use perhaps 1 pot a month? (I even get income for selling all my pots) b:laugh
I wasn't suggesting you actually did those runs and i hope you didn't mislead your squad about it. If you use only 1 poth a month then you're a lousy player. It means your mp consumption is never high enough you need to suplement it.
I have to disagree with you mostly here, skill is 99% of survival
Given the same degree of skill and similar phys res, a player with more HP will survive things the other won't. And no, skill isn't 99% of survival unless you are the kind of player that will bail on a squad and let the Cleric fend off by himself.
I'm unsure if you're being serious or are trolling but either way i must say i dislike Venos with this "i never pot/never get hit attitude". Are you for real? If it was true you'd be familiar enough with the game not to make those claims...
Edit;@ Lilithium, At your level range the difference should be a little over 300 HP. Doesn't seem like much but it is surviving an extra hit or two.0 -
i would like to hear a "pure mag's" experiences in Warsong b:questionElena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
oh yea i remember selling XS axes mold for like 10mil a while ago, now its 1mil. misty forest same problems... not to mention ancient alloy (spell?) and pirate hat that you can sell directly to npcSolandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Solo FB runs for molds were a lot more lucrative before they added Bounty Hunter quests. 79 is particularly bad because people in their 80s and 90s get it. At this point, probably close to half the server is in that level range.0 -
Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »i would like to hear a "pure mag's" experiences in Warsong b:question
Same argument different flavor from anti-pure mags. First it was Ancient Evil aka Belial. I lived through it's AoE with less than 4k HP despite being told I needed 5k+. Then it was Rebirth Delta which I got through w/o a charm. Even a vit arcane is going to do bad if they have poor equips. I build to kill faster / keep costs down keeping my survivability almost minimal for what needs to be done so if I fail when I get there: I'll put more into my survival equips. At the level you need to be for warsong, you should be imbuing/ sharding better than earlier on anyway.Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0 -
what the heck are you arguing about? a marginal difference in hp/mag, are you serious? the higher you refine and the better your gear, the smaller the difference becomes.
your stats are just the base. aslong as you're aware of your strengths and weaknesses, you'll do well.
ppl who defend their build stubbornly are kids.0 -
Same argument different flavor from anti-pure mags. First it was Ancient Evil aka Belial. I lived through it's AoE with less than 4k HP despite being told I needed 5k+. Then it was Rebirth Delta which I got through w/o a charm. Even a vit arcane is going to do bad if they have poor equips. I build to kill faster / keep costs down keeping my survivability almost minimal for what needs to be done so if I fail when I get there: I'll put more into my survival equips. At the level you need to be for warsong, you should be imbuing/ sharding better than earlier on anyway.
I have 5700 HP, fully buffed, and 74% physical resist in fox form. Belial can still hit me for over 10k in fox form.
You just got lucky methinks.0 -
Edit: I retract that statement.
also...double post0 -
Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »I have 5700 HP, fully buffed, and 74% physical resist in fox form. Belial can still hit me for over 10k in fox form.
You just got lucky methinks.
Yeh, that's what the idiotic squad I was in said even after I saw them take a bigger HP (%) hit than me.Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0 -
Yeh, that's what the idiotic squad I was in said even after I saw them take a bigger HP (%) hit than me.
In order to have a guaranteed chance of survival against belial with 4k HP, you would need to have 86% physical resistance, which is close to 20k physical defense.
Belial has an extremely large damage range, I've had him hit me for as little as 3k, and as much as 11k.
So, in other words, you got lucky. b:bye
Edit: I'm forgetting the level difference as well. and, my 74% resistance was from the 15 second buff from demon aura of the golden bell. without it, I have 60%, fully buffed, in fox.
but you still got lucky.0
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