Pure Mag the best build for PvE?
Comments
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Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »In order to have a guaranteed chance of survival against belial with 4k HP, you would need to have 86% physical resistance, which is close to 20k physical defense.
Belial has an extremely large damage range, I've had him hit me for as little as 3k, and as much as 11k.
So, in other words, you got lucky. b:bye
Edit: I'm forgetting the level difference as well. and, my 74% resistance was from the 15 second buff from demon aura of the golden bell. without it, I have 60%, fully buffed, in fox.
but you still got lucky.
Good thing I don't take advice from people who state certain amounts of HP as being needed for such and such.
http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/mob/14758Physical Attack
4558 - 13673
Magic Attack
5469 - 16407
-That and let's ignore that the whole squad who acted like they were pro: "got lucky".Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0 -
tweakz how many times have you killed AE? You make it seem like you have killed it once only.
It can buff itself; those damages in pwd are inaccurate unless he is constantly purged.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I think tweakz is just trying to justify his decision to go pure magic by saying he never gets hit by anything ever, and he has as much physical defense as an HA wearing BM using physical marrow. b:chuckle
In all seriousness, I've run belial with both BM and barb tanks. More often than not, while buffed, belial hits them for huge chunks of damage, sometimes upwards of 5-6k. And these aren't fail tanks either.0 -
Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »I think tweakz is just trying to justify his decision to go pure magic by saying he never gets hit by anything ever, and he has as much physical defense as an HA wearing BM using physical marrow. b:chuckle
pssh, that would be impossible for him. he's too squishy, his only defense is running away if mobs come after him b:chuckle>.<0 -
i have better pdef and hp than tweakz, yet i got hit from 3k+ up to 9k from ancient evil0
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and i posted one time just not in post your build whatever thread
anyway, like someone else said even bm/barb get hit pretty hard from AE and to get that kind of defences and hp you have to be full heavy or something close0 -
Belial a.k.a Ancient Evil's attack range is very vast.
Sometimes someone with 4k HP will survive, because he won't get hit often, or because the times he got hit the damage was on the low scale.
I've done belial where clerics only had 5k HP buffed, which was scary, because it's very possible to do it, however its easy for him to die, same with tweakz. The time that he did it he could have been lucky? i dont know i wasnt there. I've seen clerics with 7k HP die before, just because he was unlucky, **** happens eh?
Also with Blue ball from a cleric, and his pdef shards, its going to reduce the damage he takes by alot, but his HP being low still gives him a good chance he will die.
Just be lke me, solo heal belial, tank his aoes when it happens without blue ball, who needs pure mag build? b:chuckle0 -
Cause HP is the end all - be all to survival. b:chuckleBe kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0
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no but why do you skip reading what she/he said?
"Also with Blue ball from a cleric, and his pdef shards, its going to reduce the damage he takes by alot, but his HP being low still gives him a good chance he will die."
after defences hp comes in so yes it does matter alot. even herc with 20k ish defences isnt going to last a hit if some boss hit him for 5k through defences. of course there are still players that belive hp is important but they dont care about defences, they probably have 10k hp and 1k pdef and still get 1 shot from AE.0 -
Exactly my point as to why a balanced build would work best for most players, as relying less on gear for HP allows you more freedom to fully shard garnets. It's also cheaper. A 7 mag build with relatively low refines can get as much hp as full vit and, with a decent level tome and gear bonuses, as much mag as an 8 mag. 8 mag with full resources can both match pure (+55 mag tome) and full vit (gear bonuses plus two pieces of fully socketed gear with +10 vit stones) and have enough slots left to match LA's phys res.0
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MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »Exactly my point as to why a balanced build would work best for most players, as relying less on gear for HP allows you more freedom to fully shard garnets. It's also cheaper. A 7 mag build with relatively low refines can get as much hp as full vit and, with a decent level tome and gear bonuses, as much mag as an 8 mag. 8 mag with full resources can both match pure (+55 mag tome) and full vit (gear bonuses plus two pieces of fully socketed gear with +10 vit stones) and have enough slots left to match LA's phys res.
AFAICS the benefit to such balance is about as useful as keeping a leveled mag tank pet for those extremely rare and not even necessary uses, or better: using a shadow cub as your sole pet.
It's been implied now that you need to be a Barb or BM to have guaranteed surviva on AE, so why are people trying to build a veno as if it's a Barb or BM? We're on par with DD classes. Build as tank: fail as tank. Build as DD and you can at least hold aggro when tanking. There is no HP boost from Fox Form, and Leech provides a fixed amount: not a percent.
I've seen guides on how to avoid this AoE from AE totally, so can anyone come up with another rare use for such absurd survivability that will ends up costing you on ~99% of whatever else you do PvE?Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0 -
I think what it really boils down to is this:
Defense+HP>Defense
tweakz seems to believe defense alone is the end-all be-all of survivability. If it was tweakz, we'd see BMs running around with 500 HP and 50k defense.0 -
Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »I think what it really boils down to is this:
Defense+HP>Defense
tweakz seems to believe defense alone is the end-all be-all of survivability. If it was tweakz, we'd see BMs running around with 500 HP and 50k defense.
No troll, I refine and use equips for HP.There are many Pure Mags that do fine without adding vit as a stat so go on with your ignorance and trolling.Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0 -
AFAICS the benefit to such balance is about as useful as keeping a leveled mag tank pet for those extremely rare and not even necessary uses, or better: using a shadow cub as your sole pet.
If that was a stab at me, I have 6 pets, including 4 land pets, all for different uses.It's been implied now that you need to be a Barb or BM to have guaranteed surviva on AE, so why are people trying to build a veno as if it's a Barb or BM? We're on par with DD classes. Build as tank: fail as tank. Build as DD and you can at least hold aggro when tanking. There is no HP boost from Fox Form, and Leech provides a fixed amount: not a percent.
People build venomancers with light armor and heavy armor, because we have flexibility other classes lack. This flexibility comes in the form of pets. Pets are a constant, something unaffected by builds, or armor, which allows venomancers to choose more "unique" builds.I've seen guides on how to avoid this AoE from AE totally,
Yes, there are ways, but it usually involves standing very close, and using earthquake or another genie skill to interrupt. if you're standing too far from him, he's going to move when he switches aggro, and your interrupt may not be able to catch him. These methods are never infallible, because no one is perfect. To err is human, so they say.so can anyone come up with another rare use for such absurd survivability that will ends up costing you on ~99% of whatever else you do PvE?
Warsong City comes to mind.0 -
No troll, I refine and use equips for HP.There are many Pure Mags that do fine without adding vit as a stat so go on with your ignorance and trolling.
That's all well and good, but, if your HP is 4k unbuffed at level 99, I think you aren't refining enough.
See, I don't care what kind of build you choose, just don't go preaching that yours is better than all the rest. Because I'm sure there's an HA melee veno out there that would happily wipe the floor with your pure magic squishiness.0 -
AFAICS the benefit to such balance is about as useful as keeping a leveled mag tank pet for those extremely rare and not even necessary uses, or better: using a shadow cub as your sole pet.
It's been implied now that you need to be a Barb or BM to have guaranteed surviva on AE, so why are people trying to build a veno as if it's a Barb or BM? We're on par with DD classes. Build as tank: fail as tank. Build as DD and you can at least hold aggro when tanking. There is no HP boost from Fox Form, and Leech provides a fixed amount: not a percent.
I've seen guides on how to avoid this AoE from AE totally, so can anyone come up with another rare use for such absurd survivability that will ends up costing you on ~99% of whatever else you do PvE?
Agree on the mag tank thing, although not so much on Shaodu Cub. Out of principle i would discourage any veno from keeping only 1 land pet at level (even Herc) although keeping only two is not a bad idea if you dislike leveling pets, especially given the difficulty in keeping them level at the current leveling pace. It's what i do, and one of my pets (my only tanker) is in fact a Shaodu Cub... If for whatever reason you're only going to keep one pet a good tank is not the worse you could think of...
HP really does help in survival wether you think it important or not. Because of diminishing returns all builds will eventually reach a point where overall performance will be more significantly impacted by investing on defense rather than continue stacking +mag or +mag attack (channeling i'm counting as separate since it's independent of stats). This point is much easier to reach with a pure mag build, but at the cost of greater expense in upping HP. Since garnets are cheaper to shard than citrines a balanced build is cheaper as far as sharding is concerned. Likewise it can rely on refines alone to provide a siginificant amount (my point about 7 mag).
It's about being practical and avoiding the extremes of either being a veno that pretends to never make a mistake and to always have an optimal strategy at hand or heavily investing on refines to make up for the lower HP disadvantage. In the first scenario reality often proves otherwise and squads pay the price of having a member whose performance leaves little room for error. In the second scenario is about wasting resources that could have otherwise provided for better capabilities.
I won't get into the Ancient Evil discussion since i lack the experience required to provide an informed opinion. It does seem several posters disagree with you on this however...0 -
Someone posted an app for calculating which is better at your given stats - adding hp or adding pdef. I can't find it. But to put this to rest once and for all, I put together a spreadsheet to calculate it.
At level 90 and 4k hp, you are better off adding a flawless citrine instead of a flawless garnet if you have more than 302 pdef.
Flawless citrine = 40 hp
So adding a cit gives you 4040 hp, which is 1.0% more survivability.
Flawless garnet = 41 pdef
Say you have 100 pdef. This means your effective hp (how much raw damage you can take from a same-level opponent before dying) is:
ehp = hp / [1 - pdef / (pdef+40*lvl)] = 4000 / [1 - 100 / (100+40*90)] = 4111
You add a flawless garnet giving you 141 pdef. Your effective hp is:
ehp = 4000 / [1 - 141 / (141+40*90)] = 4157
This is a 4157 / 4111 = 1.1% improvement to survivability. So @ 100 pdef the garnet helps more than the citrine.
Now say you have 1000 pdef. Running the same calcs gives you:
ehp @ 1000 pdef = 4000 / (1 - 1000 / (1000+40*90)) = 5111
ehp @ 1041 pdef = 4000 / (1 - 1041 / (1041+40*90)) = 5157
This is a 5157 / 5111 = 0.9% improvement to survivability. So @ 1000 pdef the citrine helps more than the garnet.
So at level 90 against level 90 oppoents, @ 4k hp, from a purely "I want to be able to avoid being one-shotted by a physical AOE" standpoint, you are better off sharding with citrines if you have more than 302 pdef.
The breakpoints at higher hp are:
5k hp = 1278 pdef
6k hp = 2254 pdef
7k hp = 3229 pdef
8k hp = 4205 pdef
Against higher level opponents, the effectiveness of pdef is muted, so the breakpoints shift lower (i.e. hp is even more useful).
Don't make the mistake of thinking this is all there is to it though. This applies only to how many hits you can take til you're dead. If you factor in the effectiveness of pots and cleric heals (e.g. you're tanking), pdef is more helpful. And for increasing the effectiveness of ST (assuming you run out of mana a lot more often than you run out of hp), having lower hp is more advantageous. And it applies only to flawless citrines vs. flawless garnets. For other equipment, the hp/pdef equivalencies are different, shifting the trade-off points.
Exactly how these factors balance out is a subjective decision: There is no one right answer and each individual is free to decide where they wish their character to fall within the tradeoffs. But for the case of surviving a level 90 physical AOE which could one-shot you, at 4k hp you are better off adding more hp if you have more than 302 pdef. (For a level 150 AOE, there is no trade-off @ 4k hp. You are always better off adding more hp.)
(And as an aside, no this is not because pdef has diminishing returns and hp doesn't. pdef scales the same way hp does. In terms of relative survivability, which is what this scenario entails, both suffer diminishing returns. pdef just has a steeper curve than hp.)0 -
Too much math /facepalm
What about having 9.5k HP unbuffed and 3.2k pdef unbuffed in human form?
Also, citrine helps with both phys and magical, garnet helps with only physical. And at this stage in the game where everyone is level 100 ish, its not only physical damage that will kill you sadly. Yes I know you need to have a balance so don't start preaching to me...for example, if I 1v1 a level 100 cleric that has pure garnets in his gear, how is that going to help him against me? Pure garnet shards is stupid, and everyone knows that. Good to have a mix.0 -
@Solandri
here is that calculator: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=O2IATW35
same math but only one thing is different, i counted results after +1 HP or +1 DEF not exact numbers as flawless/perfect or whatever. i'll probably add in the future something like G7, G8.. but for now its just +1
about breakpoints, for example you have 8k hp = 4205 def. this calculator show a breakpoint (changing from garnets to citrine) around 4400 def for 8k hp. probably because i dont use real shards just +10 -
Useful info as usual Solandri, thank you. The math behind it seems easy enough for even me to calculate (using the comp).
Edit; and thanks for the calc Ken.0 -
MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »Useful info as usual Solandri, thank you. The math behind it seems easy enough for even me to calculate (using the comp).
Edit; and thanks for the calc Ken.
Thanks Solaris and Ken
PS- I know Manray.... just quote happy again b:laughToo often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0 -
IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »Thanks Solaris and Ken
PS- I know Manray.... just quote happy again b:laugh
b:cute 10char0 -
Yup, exactly. If I set the ratio of the two to 1.00 then I get 4400 def for 8k hp @ level 90.@Solandri
here is that calculator: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=O2IATW35
same math but only one thing is different, i counted results after +1 HP or +1 DEF not exact numbers as flawless/perfect or whatever. i'll probably add in the future something like G7, G8.. but for now its just +1
about breakpoints, for example you have 8k hp = 4205 def. this calculator show a breakpoint (changing from garnets to citrine) around 4400 def for 8k hp. probably because i dont use real shards just +1
It's not that fancy a conversion. All it does is scale the curve. e.g. If you're comparing something which gives 1 hp vs. 2 pdef (a 0.5 ratio), all it does is shift the 4400 def point from 8k hp to 16k hp. The 400 def at 4k hp shifts to 8k hp.0 -
MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »I'm unsure if you're being serious or are trolling but either way i must say i dislike Venos with this "i never pot/never get hit attitude". Are you for real? If it was true you'd be familiar enough with the game not to make those claims...
Edit;@ Lilithium, At your level range the difference should be a little over 300 HP. Doesn't seem like much but it is surviving an extra hit or two.
What you see is what you get, all I have said is true.
In my book avoiding those hits are more valuable than protecting myself from them. An important skill to practise is kiting (easier with herc/nix but doable with free pets wich I use on some of my venos). I use same skills/strategy for my free venos as for the herc ones.
My best tip other than kiting, is to get legendary weapon first, then focus on the reast after. Choose +MP/HP regen on armour, and upgrade both HP and MP spell to lvl 3. The point of haveing a veno is to farm cash, so saying i can't afford legendari weps is not a valid statement, if not venos can afford them, no other class can.
I also see the small difference you can counter with gears anyway.
However the number 1 reason for me to go pure, is taht i can heal my pet that much more efficient, and solo bosses earlier.
All it boils down to for me, is I earn quite a bit more cash using a pure build vs a vit build, and the main reason I use a veno is to fund my other chars when I lvl those. So if I can survive by using skills, and earn more cash, I can't see why ppl wanna use the vit build other than for PvP.
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I think you misunderstood Born. My point is no matter how good a Veno you will get hit. There are plenty of reasons even a "perfect" Veno will get hit every once in a while, ranging from respawns, to protecting the Cleric in squads, to AoE. If your PvE playstyle involves kiting good for you, mine doesn't. I'd much rather not have taking some hits become an emergency and work towards a faster kill. Dealing with an extra mob attacking me (a rare event) usually necesitates nothing but a single HP pot for me, if it's elites or larger numbers i have the full arsenal of Veno survival skills at my disposal (Hood, Metabolic, Transfussion, Foxform, Leech, Lucky, etc.) on top of apos and genie skills like ToP and Earthquake. It really takes little time for a pet to grab aggro... So unless we are talking about a boss, another player or exceptional circumstances i don't kite.
I'm not into nickel and diming my way through the game, it's alright if you do, Veno can accomodate different playing styles. If you like kiting and selling what pots you get from grinding by all means go ahead. But don't try to sell yourself as a leet that never makes a mistake. Venos do get hit, and having a few pots with you may be convenient.0
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