Religion allowed in signatures... a poll.
Comments
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I think I need to respectively disagree with ya on this Saitada, mainly because this could too easily turn into a slippery slope type of issue. I think what many people are actually having a problem with are certain faiths that tend towards proselytizing (note I am not singling any one out, as there are several world religions that favor proselytizing). Personally, I've had many RL encounters where a stranger will ask if Ive accepted the superiority of their deity, and when I say no, they either say the feel sorry for me, or want to go on and on and on about the superiority of their deity and what a fool I am not to accept their deity. (*shrug*), annoying.
Personally, I cant really say Id be bothered by a faction named, say, MosesChildren, or BastsKittens or ZeusElectricUnderpants or FuxisGrrrls, because these are traditions where its not a tenant of these beliefs to pester others with your deity, no matter how much of a filthy sinner they may be. But if I'm willing to be comfortable with those, then I need to be comfortable with other faiths that accept proselytizing (albeit, I reserve the right to tell them to go elsewhere please.....though perhaps not in those words)
Further, at what level can one draw the line between religion and faith? Is metaphysics ok? Speculative philosophy? Religions from fantasy/scifi?
Is a faction named Tao ok? AlternateReality? WarpSpeed? PlatonicForms? GeorgeNoory?
In cases like this I prefer the possibility of being annoyed by others rather than having to worry about censoring myself.....
Just my opinion.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Formykka - Heavens Tear wrote: »I think I need to respectively disagree with ya on this Saitada, mainly because this could too easily turn into a slippery slope type of issue. I think what many people are actually having a problem with are certain faiths that tend towards proselytizing (note I am not singling any one out, as there are several world religions that favor proselytizing). Personally, I've had many RL encounters where a stranger will ask if Ive accepted the superiority of their deity, and when I say no, they either say the feel sorry for me, or want to go on and on and on about the superiority of their deity and what a fool I am not to accept their deity. (*shrug*), annoying.
Personally, I cant really say Id be bothered by a faction named, say, MosesChildren, or BastsKittens or ZeusElectricUnderpants or FuxisGrrrls, because these are traditions where its not a tenant of these beliefs to pester others with your deity, no matter how much of a filthy sinner they may be. But if I'm willing to be comfortable with those, then I need to be comfortable with other faiths that accept proselytizing (albeit, I reserve the right to tell them to go elsewhere please.....though perhaps not in those words)
Further, at what level can one draw the line between religion and faith? Is metaphysics ok? Speculative philosophy? Religions from fantasy/scifi?
Is a faction named Tao ok? AlternateReality? WarpSpeed? PlatonicForms? GeorgeNoory?
In cases like this I prefer the possibility of being annoyed by others rather than having to worry about censoring myself.....
Just my opinion.
Your point is well taken and while I hate to admit it, I think for the most part, I have to agree with you here. It does become a slippery slope, and does become something that 'could' cause problems in the long run.
I just simply have major issues with people promoting their religions.
I have always felt that ones belief(s) should be between ones deity and oneself, and not something you throw all over the place, and shove in everyone's face.
I have come to believe that people who do this WANT to feel persecuted for their beliefs. That is why the do it. They don't understand that the reason they are so strongly disliked, isn't because of their beliefs, but because they are always shoving it in everyone's faces all the time, everywhere they go. Rather than attribute their persecution to their behavior, they attribute it to their beliefs. And then scream and yell about it.
I am personally sick of it.
If someone wants to believe in some invisible super omnipotent being, fine, feel free. In fact, I am very happy for you. But please DO keep your belief to yourself. I am not interested in who or what you believe in. You go to church or temple or mosque to be with people who believe like you do. That should be enough.
~S0 -
Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »I was thinking more Lower Depths myself.
~S
and so it happend0 -
Totally understand where yer coming from here Saitada. Everyone has something in society that gets their ire going. Personally I'd get all itchy if (when?) someone starts a teabagger faction on Heavens Tear (I tend to have more of a political reaction....I lived in DC for 9 years (*shrug*)).
On the other hand, as you've acknowledged, I can see the concept behind separatism in factions. If Christians want to start a faction where they're guaranteed not to see the lord's name used in vain in faction chat or have debates of icons vs no icons, or transubstantiation, or whatever they prefer, eh, ok. Personally I'd like to start a faction called QueersInc....or something (dont think that particular names gonna cut the filter) 'cause I'm a big *****. Mainly cause I'd love to have faction chat where "that's sooooo ****" is only used sarcastically/ironically and I don't have to worry about encountering the usual RL discrimination while I'm playing a game.
In short....MMORPGs are games first and foremost, but for many they're a social vehicle as well. Its gonna have some gritty aspects of the society it takes place in.
Oh, and while I've seen at least three factions on HT that appear to have a christian bent to them, I have yet to be asked personally in game if Jesus is a part of my life, so, for me, if it remains live and let live, I'm totally ok with it.
Oh, and also, Saitada? Bast LOVES you.
Her minions hate you though, give them friskies NOW!!!!!
b:thanks[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Agreed to it should not be here.
I dont care what religion people have, as long as it makes them happy, but the constant advertising the 'my religion is better then yours' or ' i want to flaunt my religion cause it makes me feel superiour' kinda bull.... is something that annoys me.
And even if i would have the same way of thinking or beleiving as the advertised factions on wc I wouldnt join them.
Why? Because i beleive locking yourself up in a room full of people that think the same way and only that same way will make you stop evolving/creates narrowminded people. Theres more to life then religion, theres more to a game like this then just finding the same pack of people that make the same choices as you did in rl.
Its a game for crying out loud, an international game, the joy to that is that you can actually interact with people that ARENT like you so you broaden your horizons.My caracters:
Faith_z - 7x Cleric (main)
HaveFaith_z - 5x Veno
Ivory_Soul -3x Psychic
Dont give me an attitude, I got one of my own!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Saitadatude FTW :P0 -
First of all, a persons religious beliefs are a CHOICE and they have the right to express it, identify themselves with it, quote it, or whatever they want as long as they are not interferring with the choices of other people.
Having a religeous quote or the like on a t-shirt, a sign outside your home, or even in a forum signature is NOT "shoving it down your throat". If you don't like it, don't look at it ... it's your choice!
And Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me. GENESIS 21:6 (Just expressing what I think about this topic. Utterly ridiculous!)
Yes, I am a Christian and I have no problem making that public. Got a problem with it? Then just ignore me.
Simple! Isn't it?
b:thanksThere's no such thing as a "Perfect World" full of Jade, diamonds, gold, and other riches and treasures. There is only an imperfect world, with an imperfect society, full of imperfect people, with imperfect idea's about how to be perfectly rich and perfectly perfect. No one cares about being perfectly kind, perfectly fair, or perfectly content.
It's a perfectly sad world.0 -
PunkinKatt - Heavens Tear wrote: »First of all, a persons religious beliefs are a CHOICE and they have the right to express it, identify themselves with it, quote it, or whatever they want as long as they are not interferring with the choices of other people.
Guess what cupcake.. by blaring it about all over the place, you are interfering with my choice not to be subjected to your belief.
Having a religeous quote or the like on a t-shirt, a sign outside your home, or even in a forum signature is NOT "shoving it down your throat". If you don't like it, don't look at it ... it's your choice!
I beg to differ, it is shoving it down my throat. You are placing it in a manner that people can't help but see. Thus forcing them to have to endure your belief (again).
GARBAGE More GARBAGE (Just expressing what I think about this topic. Utterly ridiculous!)
Yes, I am an IDIOT and I have no problem making that public. Got a problem with it? Then just ignore me.
Simple! Isn't it?
b:thanks
Fixed btw....
It is USUALLY people of your faith, that have issues when people like me, ask you to keep your faith to yourself.
You think you have a right given to you by the imaginary deity you 'worship' to shove your beliefs in everyone's faces and demand that they acknowledge your 'right' to be obnoxious freaks and expect everyone to follow suit or they are going to your imaginary hell.
You are right about one thing. I have the right to ignore people like you, unfortunately.... people like you, refuse to be ignored. You DEMAND everyone accept you and see you. I find that in and of itself, the most objectionable thing about your particular faith.
~S0 -
Punkin, was it intentional that you completely ignore the valid opinions in this thread just to yell you have a religion and you have the right to yell it out loud even when people dont want to hear it?
Cause i see that as shoving it down peoples throats, the thread is about not dragging religion into the game, for reasons stated by various people.
If you disagree, a simple ' i do want religion into this game because .... ' would be enough/would contribute to a dialogue instead of slamming a door shut.My caracters:
Faith_z - 7x Cleric (main)
HaveFaith_z - 5x Veno
Ivory_Soul -3x Psychic
Dont give me an attitude, I got one of my own!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Saitadatude FTW :P0 -
Faith_z - Sanctuary wrote: »Punkin, was it intentional that you completely ignore the valid opinions in this thread just to yell you have a religion and you have the right to yell it out loud even when people dont want to hear it?
Cause i see that as shoving it down peoples throats, the thread is about not dragging religion into the game, for reasons stated by various people.
If you disagree, a simple ' i do want religion into this game because .... ' would be enough/would contribute to a dialogue instead of slamming a door shut.
I didn't say anything about "yelling", now did I? And I said nothing, whatsoever, about bringing religion into the game. Re-read my post.
But it seems to me Saitada has a much larger problem than I do making HER beliefs known and "shoving it down my throat". I don't normally talk about my beliefs on forums or in public, but I do have t-shirts with scripture on them and other christian quotes and I wear them proudly. This whole subject, however, falls precariously on the line of interferring with the choices of the Christians who use these forums.
To top it off, I certainly don't ever stoop to name calling, as Saitada did. She doesn't know me from a hill-of-beans and she has no right to judge me. And neither do you.There's no such thing as a "Perfect World" full of Jade, diamonds, gold, and other riches and treasures. There is only an imperfect world, with an imperfect society, full of imperfect people, with imperfect idea's about how to be perfectly rich and perfectly perfect. No one cares about being perfectly kind, perfectly fair, or perfectly content.
It's a perfectly sad world.0 -
PunkinKatt - Heavens Tear wrote: »I didn't say anything about "yelling", now did I? And I said nothing, whatsoever, about bringing religion into the game. Re-read my post.
But it seems to me Saitada has a much larger problem than I do making HER beliefs known and "shoving it down my throat". I don't normally talk about my beliefs on forums or in public, but I do have t-shirts with scripture on them and other christian quotes and I wear them proudly. This whole subject, however, falls precariously on the line of interferring with the choices of the Christians who use these forums.
To top it off, I certainly don't ever stoop to name calling, as Saitada did. She doesn't know me from a hill-of-beans and she has no right to judge me. And neither do you.
Sorry if my saying your an Idiot bothers you. But when you are unable to understand something so simple as:
I have no desire to be subjected to your personal spiritual beliefs, please keep them to yourself.
Just as I keep my personal spiritual beliefs to myself. (Please note that I DO have a personal Spiritual belief.)
Then yes, you are an idiot.
One of us respects the others rights not to be forced to be subjected to another's religion, and one of us doesn't.
Guess who doesn't? Yes, you guessed it. YOU and people LIKE YOU.
~S0 -
I believe in a religion most other people do not, But the the thing is that, I don't want to shove it down people's throats. I'm sick of all the christen billboards and such. It's annoying. The other billboards of other religions also. Its just..annoying!A newb starting to start her journey into PWI.
Guild: SanctumRP b:thanks0 -
not sure if u rethought that poll before posting it
by 'forbiding religion' in peoples own signatures ur restricting law to free speech
there wouldnt be any difference if you also forbid people to put there any political or philosophical beliefs including quotations from anything ever wrote.
even simple belief 'i like muffins' in sig would have to be forbbiden also, so person wouldnt be allowed to 'shove his belief down everybody troats' (tho prolly not so many ppl would protest against it actually lol)
ofc you can be pissed if anyone will start to pm you to convince to any of his beliefs.
but signatures? leave them alone or forbbid entirely (i could agree with that ultimately) - otherwise it will be just hypocrisyBUILD EFFICIENCY CALCULATOR: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1129681
AGGRO MECHANICS: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=481682
GAME IS DEAD wiki-article: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=9382820 -
Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »Sorry if my saying your an Idiot bothers you. But when you are unable to understand something so simple as:
I have no desire to be subjected to your personal spiritual beliefs, please keep it to yourself.
Just as I keep my personal spiritual beliefs to myself. (Please note that I DO have a personal Spiritual belief.)
Then yes, you are an idiot.
One of us respects the others rights not to be forced to be subjected to another's religion, and one of us doesn't.
Guess who doesn't? Yes, you guessed it. YOU and people LIKE YOU.
~S
I respect EVERYONE's right to believe as they feel they should. That INCLUDES PUBLICLY expressing themselves in the manners that I mentioned before. I don't get all upset, scream and holler, or have a hissy-fit because the young guy I just passed in the store has a satanic quote on his t-shirt. He has the right to believe as he chooses and the right to wear that shirt. And I have the right to ignore him!
I have noticed that it is those people who are intolerant who accuse others of that very intolerance and then play the innocent and/or the victim.
And, NO, it does not bother me that you called me an idiot. It's your opinion of someone you don't even know. So, you figure it out.There's no such thing as a "Perfect World" full of Jade, diamonds, gold, and other riches and treasures. There is only an imperfect world, with an imperfect society, full of imperfect people, with imperfect idea's about how to be perfectly rich and perfectly perfect. No one cares about being perfectly kind, perfectly fair, or perfectly content.
It's a perfectly sad world.0 -
PunkinKatt - Heavens Tear wrote: »I respect EVERYONE's right to believe as they feel they should. That INCLUDES PUBLICLY expressing themselves in the manners that I mentioned before. I don't get all upset, scream and holler, or have a hissy-fit because the young guy I just passed in the store has a satanic quote on his t-shirt. He has the right to believe as he chooses and the right to wear that shirt. And I have the right to ignore him!
I have noticed that it is those people who are intolerant who accuse others of that very intolerance and then play the innocent and/or the victim.
And, NO, it does not bother me that you called me an idiot. It's your opinion of someone you don't even know. So, you figure it out.
Actually, the only problem I have, is when others subject me to their beliefs, and then try to force them down my throat saying they have the right to do it, when I object to them doing it.
So, while that may seem intolerant to you, because I am telling you to keep your beliefs to yourself, and don't bother me with them, the fact that you can't tolerate my desire to be free from being subjected to your beliefs every where I turn shows everyone exactly what you are. A Hypocrite.
Who then are the ones with the actual problem?
The people like me who wish not to be forced to endure this type of behavior?
Or the people like you who seem to think this behavior is perfectly fine?
~S0 -
Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »That is funny, considering I rarely ever talk on world chat, so what garbage would I be spewing out? Oh yeah that's right. none.
I personally don't want to see ANY religion in a game, or on the forums. This isn't the real world, and my PERSONAL opinion is if you have to bring your real world GARBAGE into a FANTASY setting, something is wrong with you.
You don't like that I think that way and don't want me to speak my mind? Move to a communist country. Oh right.. they would probably shoot you there.
~S
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_cwyVJjUNJHI/R-wVxwut1YI/AAAAAAAACVc/_KDV_qr_8lI/1195860531560.jpg
I kid, I kid.
I agree with S on some points, well only one point. It's annoying when someone else is trying to "force" his/her religion on you. But eh, if someone is just showing his/her love/affection/pride towards a religion or anything else in his/her signature. That's his bee'sneeeeeez.
I could honestly be annoyed more at Lady Gaga signatures than at signatures that say "YOU SHALL BURN IN HELL, ONLY JESUS CAN SAVE YOU!"
Eh, hello? All the kool kids go to hell, like seriously. I'd chill down there and play strip poker with the pornstars and Hitler and Jesus.
..oops.
Anyway, the only thing that might be annoying is people ranting about being annoyed about, other than that. I hardly notice any of it
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Still trying to move your cursor, eh?0 -
Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »PunkinKatt - Heavens Tear wrote: »Re-quoted for emphasis:
I respect EVERYONE's right to believe as they feel they should. That INCLUDES PUBLICLY expressing themselves in the manners that I mentioned before. I don't get all upset, scream and holler, or have a hissy-fit because the young guy I just passed in the store has a satanic quote on his t-shirt. He has the right to believe as he chooses and the right to wear that shirt. And I have the right to ignore him!
I have noticed that it is those people who are intolerant who accuse others of that very intolerance and then play the innocent and/or the victim.
And, NO, it does not bother me that you called me an idiot. It's your opinion of someone you don't even know. So, you figure it out.
Actually, the only problem I have, is when others subject me to their beliefs, and then try to force them down my throat.
I have my own beliefs. I am happy with my own beliefs.
I don't need them to tell me mine are wrong, and unless I repent I'm going to burn in hell.
So, while that may seem intolerant to you, because I am telling you to keep your beliefs to yourself, and don't bother me with them, the fact that you can't tolerate my desire to be free from being subjected to your beliefs every where I turn shows everyone exactly what you are. A Hypocrite.
More people of your belief scream and yell when people don't want to be forced to be subject to them than people of any other belief system on this planet. You demand that you have the RIGHT to harass, pester and persecute people for their beliefs, because your belief says theirs is devil worship.
Who then is the ones with the problem?
The people like me who wish not to be forced to endure this type of harassment? or the people like you who seem to think this behavior is perfectly fine, because their religion demands it?
~S
I never told you your personal beliefs are wrong. Re-read what I wrote.
You just sank your own boat...lmao. Because it seems to me that it is you who are being fanatical.
Since when is a t-shirt, a bumper sticker, or a sign on my front door any kind of harassment of anyone else? I'm not following anyone around and they don't have to look at or read anything of mine either. And as Paramedic said above, there is the issue of freedom of speech as well. In addition to that freedom, we ALL have freedom of religion. At least, in the United States we do.There's no such thing as a "Perfect World" full of Jade, diamonds, gold, and other riches and treasures. There is only an imperfect world, with an imperfect society, full of imperfect people, with imperfect idea's about how to be perfectly rich and perfectly perfect. No one cares about being perfectly kind, perfectly fair, or perfectly content.
It's a perfectly sad world.0 -
You and I obviously "discussed" this previously, i find it hillarious that you would start this after swearing your only complaint previously was a ToS violation, which in either case isnt for you to decide on anyhow. Now that theres a little light on the subject we can get down to facts.
Yes i noticed emphasis on the word "usually" but let it be known that im not a person of "faith". I dont have a strong religious belief in anything although you previously assumed i am Christian in prior post. I do however have morals and most importantly i have free will. Regardless of anyones sig, post, poll or anything else subjective, i have the free will to believe whatever i choose to.Saitada wrote:It is USUALLY people of your faith, that have issues when people like me, ask you to keep your faith to yourself.
Your constantly contradict yourself, you feel as though you have every right to express your thoughts freely and i would agree that you do. However, so does everyone else. Theres always going to be something in the world that will offend someone else, whether its in game or real life you simply cant please everyone. We all as humans have to learn to accept things, especially in America. Theres a difference in accepting and agreeing though and thats where you seem to get confused.
So the reality is you now have several pages, and a poll, with religion being a topic yet your complaining about one guys sig? Come on really, if a guy wants a sig with his guild name on it, christian or not, whats the actual harm? Its HIS sig, not yours. If someone wants a bumper sticker on there car, so what? Its their car. A billboard? so what, they paid for it. How does it actually effect anyone?
Ive seen several WC's on Heavens Tear server from a Christian based guild looking for members, it simply said "Guild name X (dont even remember the name) a Christian guild is looking for more members, pm for more info". Shortly following was "X Guild recruiting french players, pm for more info". Im not french or christian so guess what i did? nothing.
Bottom line is let people be what/who they want to be and stop ******** so much about it. The game, nor the world will adjust to comfort any one person.
I wont post anything else here so feel free to call me an idiot or what ever else it takes for you to sleep better at night, i suppose we all are in someone else's eyes anyhow. I bid you good day and happy gaming.
Quoting you once again,
"get over it cupcake"
"that is life, life is hard"0 -
PunkinKatt - Heavens Tear wrote: »I never told you your personal beliefs are wrong. Re-read what I wrote.
You just sank your own boat...lmao. Because it seems to me that it is you who being fanatical.
Since when is a t-shirt, a bumper sticker, or a sign on my front door any kind of harassment of anyone else? I'm not following anyone around and they don't have to look at or read anything of mine either. And as Paramedic said above, there is the issue of freedom of speech as well. In addition to that freedom, we ALL have freedom of religion. At least, in the United States we do.
Actually, on a game forum, you do NOT have freedom of speech, or religion. You have rules that you are required to follow. There is your freedom of speech on these forums anyway... right out the window.
And yes, I agree you have freedom of religion. That is a fundamental right I think all humans should have. You have the Freedom to BELIEVE anything you want to believe in.. what you do NOT have is the freedom to subject others unwillingly to your belief.
If someone has a sign in their yard, that is visible by everyone around, sorry, but generally, it is hard not to see it. Your argument there is spurious and lame at best.
I challenge you not to see, or read any sign you see by the side of the road. Guess what? At best, all you can do is slide your eyes past it, but even then, your mind registers what it says and what is on it.
I know you never told me my beliefs are wrong. You can't, because you have no idea what my beliefs are. Why? because I don't subject others to my belief. I don't force then to see my belief everywhere they turn. I don't print t-shirts with scripture from my belief and hand them out so everyone will have no choice but to see that 'I believe this way'.
So, who's boat is sunk? Not mine sorry. It is floating perfectly fine. I don't force you to see or read, or be subjected to my personal religious views. You on the other hand expect everyone to accept it when people of your belief do so.
~S0 -
LifeAfterDth - Heavens Tear wrote: »You and I obviously "discussed" this previously, i find it hillarious that you would start this after swearing your only complaint previously was a ToS violation, which in either case isnt for you to decide on anyhow. Now that theres a little light on the subject we can get down to facts.
Yes i noticed emphasis on the word "usually" but let it be known that im not a person of "faith". I dont have a strong religious belief in anything although you previously assumed i am Christian in prior post. I do however have morals and most importantly i have free will. Regardless of anyones sig, post, poll or anything else subjective, i have the free will to believe whatever i choose to.
Your constantly contradict yourself, you feel as though you have every right to express your thoughts freely and i would agree that you do. However, so does everyone else. Theres always going to be something in the world that will offend someone else, whether its in game or real life you simply cant please everyone. We all as humans have to learn to accept things, especially in America. Theres a difference in accepting and agreeing though and thats where you seem to get confused.
So the reality is you now have several pages, and a poll, with religion being a topic yet your complaining about one guys sig? Come on really, if a guy wants a sig with his guild name on it, christian or not, whats the actual harm? Its HIS sig, not yours. If someone wants a bumper sticker on there car, so what? Its their car. A billboard? so what, they paid for it. How does it actually effect anyone?
For the most part, I agree with what you say, save a couple small points. I think I probably addressed them in my previous post above this one.
~S0 -
lol ok i said i wouldnt post but i cant help but to say this...Saitada wrote:If someone has a sign in their yard, that is visible by everyone around, sorry, but generally, it is hard not to see it. Your argument there is spurious and lame at best.
I challenge you not to see, or read any sign you see by the side of the road. Guess what? At best, all you can do is slide your eyes past it, but even then, your mind registers what it says and what is on it.
There is that argument slaughtered. Care to try again?
are you saying that your mind is so weak that you cant read a sign and simply disagree with it and go on about your day? Your scneraio is also pointing to the real world, not in game btw. I dont know how you get out of bed in the morning, life must really really suck for you.0 -
LifeAfterDth - Heavens Tear wrote: »lol ok i said i wouldnt post but i cant help but to say this...
are you saying that your mind is so weak that you cant read a sign and simply disagree with it and go on about your day? Your scneraio is also pointing to the real world, not in game btw. I dont know how you get out of bed in the morning, life must really really suck for you.
Actually, you would be surprised at how little life actually sucks for me lol.
That aside, what I am saying is, that very few systems of belief, are as rabid about promoting themselves, and pushing themselves into visibility as the ones we are discussing.
Bringing a real life example of religious intolerance and persecution that I personally endured when I lived in South Carolina into this discussion....
I am obviously NOT a christian, although I am a former ordained baptist minister. When I moved to SC, I had crosses burned on my lawn. My dogs poisoned. The tires of my car and truck slashed. Windows of my vehicles broken out, etc. All by "good Christians" trying to drive the 'devil worshiper' out of their town.
I never once discussed my beliefs with anyone else when I moved there.
I built a 6 foot privacy fence around my yard, and created a private space for myself to practice my belief in privacy. Some nosy neighbor saw what I built, and decided to look over my fence and see what I was doing in the privacy of my own home and yard. Nothing I was doing was perverted, or objectionable, and in fact, had any Christian created what I created in their yard, nothing would have been seen as amiss.
The difference? I wasn't Christian.
I was subjected to cars and trucks with bullhorns blaring christian music at my home daily. With tons of fliers and pamphlets shoved in my mail slot. With signs shoved into my lawn saying I was a sinner and should repent or I would burn in hell. I had people standing in front of my home with signs shouting vileness I don't care to repeat here.
All by 'good Christians'.
While I know that not all people that follow this belief are like this. My experience has been, that far more ARE, than are not. I personally have no desire to be subjected to this in my life any more. I refuse to allow any religion (mine included) to impinge and subject themselves on me or anyone else in that manner.
You could say I am militant on this, and you would be 100% right.
NOBODY has the right to force their religion, on others, either visually, textually, or otherwise, against their will.
~S0 -
Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »Actually, on a game forum, you do NOT have freedom of speech, or religion. You have rules that you are required to follow. There is your freedom of speech on these forums anyway... right out the window.
And yes, I agree you have freedom of religion. That is a fundamental right I think all humans should have. You have the Freedom to BELIEVE anything you want to believe in.. what you do NOT have is the freedom to subject others unwillingly to your belief.
If someone has a sign in their yard, that is visible by everyone around, sorry, but generally, it is hard not to see it. Your argument there is spurious and lame at best.
I challenge you not to see, or read any sign you see by the side of the road. Guess what? At best, all you can do is slide your eyes past it, but even then, your mind registers what it says and what is on it.
I know you never told me my beliefs are wrong. You can't, because you have no idea what my beliefs are. Why? because I don't subject others to my belief. I don't force then to see my belief everywhere they turn. I don't print t-shirts with scripture from my belief and hand them out so everyone will have no choice but to see that 'I believe this way'.
So, who's boat is sunk? Not mine sorry. It is floating perfectly fine. I don't force you to see or read, or be subjected to my personal religious views. You on the other hand expect everyone to accept it when people of your belief do so.
~S
I notice you say "you", as in "me", a lot. Like you know me personally. Have we met? NO? Then stop assuming you know what I expect of others.
The truth is, I expect absolutely nothing of people I don't know. And of the people I do know, I only expect honesty and respect.
Another truth is, I ACCEPT (notice accept, not expect) that there are people of different beliefs in this world. That's a given, it's not anything I or any particular religious or non-religious organization can change. It will be this way forever.
Additonal truth: We all have the right to express ourselves in whatever way we see fit as long as it is within the law. We all have the freedoms of speech and religion. The two go together quite well and YOU cannot change that.
And as for freedom of speech and religion on the forums... these are forums for a game. The topic matter is to pertain to the game. That's why this thread got moved to the lower depths. It has no place on the PW forums.There's no such thing as a "Perfect World" full of Jade, diamonds, gold, and other riches and treasures. There is only an imperfect world, with an imperfect society, full of imperfect people, with imperfect idea's about how to be perfectly rich and perfectly perfect. No one cares about being perfectly kind, perfectly fair, or perfectly content.
It's a perfectly sad world.0 -
PunkinKatt - Heavens Tear wrote: »We all have the right to express ourselves in whatever way we see fit as long as it is within the law. We all have the freedoms of speech and religion. The two go together quite well and YOU cannot change that.
Here lies the biggest problem though. And ultimatly the crux of this discussion.
Where does your, and my and everyone Else's right to the above, stop when your, my or anyone Else's rights NOT to be subjected to same, begin?
If I have no desire to be subjected to X, where does anyone's right to subject me to X end?
If their right to subject me to X is greater to my right not to be subjected to it by them, then where is MY freedom?
Or does that freedom only walk one way?
~S0 -
Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »Here lies the biggest problem though. And ultimatly the crux of this discussion.
Where does your, and my and everyone Else's right to the above, stop when your, my or anyone Else's rights NOT to be subjected to same, begin?
If I have no desire to be subjected to X, where does anyone's right to subject me to X end?
If their right to subject me to X is greater to my right not to be subjected to it, then where is MY freedom?
~S
I have no desire to be subjected to Saitada, but Saitada has a right (as long as PWE allows) to post on these forums. Where does your right to subject me to Saitada end and my right NOT to be subjected begin?There's no such thing as a "Perfect World" full of Jade, diamonds, gold, and other riches and treasures. There is only an imperfect world, with an imperfect society, full of imperfect people, with imperfect idea's about how to be perfectly rich and perfectly perfect. No one cares about being perfectly kind, perfectly fair, or perfectly content.
It's a perfectly sad world.0 -
PunkinKatt - Heavens Tear wrote: »I have no desire to be subjected to Saitada, but Saitada has a right (as long as PWE allows) to post on these forums. Where does your right to subject me to Saitada end and my right NOT to be subjected begin?
Touche.
But you do see my point do you not?
If your (I am using the words you and your only for convenience sake) rights to subject me to religious topics, subjects, or mentioning trumps my rights not to see them, then who here has freedom, and who doesn't?
You can't claim to live in a free country, when you force people by fiat and 'law' to have to endure being subjected to a nearly constant barrage of religious signs, symbols, and mentionings.
oh and btw, Saitada is not a religion. And so if you don't want to have to see Saitadas posts. you can block them. But it is impossible to block the constant BARRAGE of religious garbage spewed out by people of your faith every day, constantly. Fliers. Crosses. Missionaries knocking on your door. etc. ad-nauseum.
And while I CAN block people like you because of the religious garbage in your signatures. Why should I have to resort to that, when it is not even required for you to put that garbage IN your signature in the first place? You make a CHOICE to subject others to your religion whether they want to see it or not. To me, that tells me that you feel it is ok to FORCE others to be subjected to your beliefs because you have 'the right' to do so.
But they don't have the right NOT to be forced to be subject to it.
I don't think that is acceptable at all.
~S0 -
Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »Actually, you would be surprised at how little life actually sucks for me lol.
That aside, what I am saying is, that very few systems of belief, are as rabid about promoting themselves, and pushing themselves into visibility as the ones we are discussing.
Bringing a real life example of religious intolerance and persecution that I personally endured when I lived in South Carolina into this discussion....
I am obviously NOT a christian, although I am a former ordained baptist minister. When I moved to SC, I had crosses burned on my lawn. My dogs poisoned. The tires of my car and truck slashed. Windows of my vehicles broken out, etc. All by "good Christians" trying to drive the 'devil worshiper' out of their town.
I never once discussed my beliefs with anyone else when I moved there.
I built a 6 foot privacy fence around my yard, and created a private space for myself to practice my belief in privacy. Some nosy neighbor saw what I built, and decided to look over my fence and see what I was doing in the privacy of my own home and yard. Nothing I was doing was perverted, or objectionable, and in fact, had any Christian created what I created in their yard, nothing would have been seen as amiss.
The difference? I wasn't Christian.
I was subjected to cars and trucks with bullhorns blaring christian music at my home daily. With tons of fliers and pamphlets shoved in my mail slot. With signs shoved into my lawn saying I was a sinner and should repent or I would burn in hell. I had people standing in front of my home with signs shouting vileness I don't care to repeat here.
All by 'good Christians'.
While I know that not all people that follow this belief are like this. My experience has been, that far more ARE, than are not. I personally have no desire to be subjected to this in my life any more. I refuse to allow any religion (mine included) to impinge and subject themselves on me or anyone else in that manner.
You could say I am militant on this, and you would be 100% right.
NOBODY has the right to force their religion, on others, either visually, textually, or otherwise, against their will.
~S
Thats quite the circumstance and probably one of the most extreme stories ive ever heard. So tell me, what would provoke such an incident? Maybe you just have bad luck but i would think this would have started with something, not just an out of the blue lets go torture the neighbor kinda thing. With that being said, i can see your personal hatred toward Christianity itself however my points remain unchanged. What you describe above would certainly be "forceful" but the original topic concerning a forum signature thats simply stating a christian guild name isnt. Its really "nit picking", something that a person with your self proclaimed intelligence level would be above doing. You cant expect people who hasnt had a negative experience to feel the same. The same applies to race and politics. You do say that life doesnt really suck for you and i hope thats true but given the above it leaves some room for doubt. If your really happy with your life you should focus on just that, i think you probably annoy yourself by protesting things you will never change. Let it go Saitada, theres too many good things in life to focus on.Saitada wrote:I am obviously NOT a christian, although I am a former ordained baptist minister.
lol, "if you cant beat em, join em"0 -
By making this thread, you are forcing your beliefs down other people’s throat. Just as you are offended by people having religion in their signatures, you are offending people who believe in those things through your posts. I’m not a religious person and it doesn’t bug me the least bit when I see religion in a signature. It’s just a signature, get over it. If someone is actually pming you religious messages in game, take a screenshot and write a ticket. Easy enough.
I have read many of your posts and you seem like a very strong opinionated person, not someone who would QQ so much over a signature or a faction name dealing with religion. It seems a little contradicting that you would make an entire thread dealing with religion seeing as how you are trying to rid the game of religious beliefs.
I agree with you on some of your points, but other people have made equally good points. If someone cannot express their views of religion in their signatures or their faction name, why should anyone be able to express their views of anything in their signature?
It is annoying to hear someone continuously rant on forever about their religion, but it is equally annoying to see someone continuously rant on about why something shouldn’t be allowed. It is just as annoying to see someone be bashed over the name of their faction or what is in their signature. It is just a game.
Your poll options offend me. But does that mean I am going to make another thread dedicated to QQ over them? No. Because I could easily ignore them if I wanted to. You can just as easily ignore someone’s signature or a faction name.b:angry b:cry b:surrender b:shutup b:sad b:shocked b:dirty b:kiss b:bye b:cute b:victory b:thanks b:laugh b:chuckle b:pleased0 -
LifeAfterDth - Heavens Tear wrote: »Thats quite the circumstance and probably one of the most extreme stories ive ever heard. So tell me, what would provoke such an incident? Maybe you just have bad luck but i would think this would have started with something, not just an out of the blue lets go torture the neighbor kinda thing. With that being said, i can see your personal hatred toward Christianity itself however my points remain unchanged. What you describe above would certainly be "forceful" but the original topic concerning a forum signature thats simply stating a christian guild name isnt. Its really "nit picking", something that a person with your self proclaimed intelligence level would be above doing. You cant expect people who hasnt had a negative experience to feel the same. The same applies to race and politics. You do say that life doesnt really suck for you and i hope thats true but given the above it leaves some room for doubt. If your really happy with your life you should focus on just that, i think you probably annoy yourself by protesting things you will never change. Let it go Saitada, theres too many good things in life to focus on.
lol, "if you cant beat em, join em"
I moved into a small town. You know the type, so small everybody knows everybody and everybody knew every ones business.
Then here comes this guy. Moves into a house and first thing he does is builds a privacy fence around his back yard. Nosy neighbors with to much time on their hands and nothing better to do than try to see what the new guy in town was doing.
I had put up my Altar, and had landscaped my back yard to suit my spiritual practice. Nosy neighbors saw it, and the .... hit the fan.
It went downhill from the first visit by the local preacher when I explained to him politely, that I had no interest in him, or his church, or his beliefs, and to please not come back.
Needless to say, that went over about like a ton of bricks.
The rest is history. I eventually moved away out of sheer disgust with the locals. I am sure they are all pleased as punch they drove the sinner away.
~S0 -
Not that is against any rule, but I find it trully lame for you to vote with more than 1 of your toons Sai!
I know you are not trying to hide this in any way because everyone can see the voters' IGN, but still.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »Touche.
But you do see my point do you not?
If your (I am using the words you and your only for convenience sake) rights to subject me to religious topics, subjects, or mentioning trumps my rights not to see them, then who here has freedom, and who doesn't?
~S
I have seen your point from the get-go. I simply disagree with you. People have the right to express themselves.
There is a very old saying:
"You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time. But you CANNOT please ALL of the people ALL of the time!"
There are always going to be people who are offended by what I do or say. Or with what you do or say, or what everyone else does or says. That does not mean that any of us must conform to what others think or assimilate ourselves into their lifestyles. It's the differences in the peoples of this world that makes the world just as interesting as it is frustrating.
I ACCEPT Saitada for who they are. I don't care what your religion or belief system is. I only disagree with you as regards the subject matter of this thread. People, even those who profess to be Christians, can be cruel and you should never have been subjected to that kind of treatment. But don't let the actions of one community make you bitter toward the rest of Christianity. Christians, REAL Christians, do not act like that. I am 48 years old and a lifelong Christian. My parent's are both ordained ministers. NONE of the people in the congregations I have known would have ever done that to you. A REAL Christian is identified by their actions and behavior. Anyone can say, "I am a Christian", but that does not necessarily make it so.
And the answer to who has freedom and who doesn't? We all do! But it goes right back to that old saying I quoted above.There's no such thing as a "Perfect World" full of Jade, diamonds, gold, and other riches and treasures. There is only an imperfect world, with an imperfect society, full of imperfect people, with imperfect idea's about how to be perfectly rich and perfectly perfect. No one cares about being perfectly kind, perfectly fair, or perfectly content.
It's a perfectly sad world.0
This discussion has been closed.
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