Evasion Formula - progect
Nightwhisper - Harshlands
Posts: 24 Arc User
Hello, I was thinking about the rates for evasion. Many people say evasion is useless but I'm not convinced. I would like to establish a formula for this.
This is what I would suggest:
- PW database provides values for monsters accuracy and evasion http://www.pwdatabase.com/ms/mob
- you get %values when you select a monster
- you can change your accuracy by equipping misty forest rings
- you can change your evasion by buffing or ornaments
we can easily collect quite a few data points for accuracy and evasion this way. Also accuracy may have a level component to it, so for simplicity sake only compare values for mobs at your same level.
So if you collect data for this project post it something like so..
lvl 80
Mob accuracy - 1580
Mob evasion - 2000
My accuracy - 3000, 95% hit
My accuracy - 4500, 99% hit
my evasion - 2500, 23% miss
my evasion - 3000, 30% miss
After we have gotten a handful of data points we can analyzes it to find a formula, i must admit this is not my strong point. The best analyzes I could do would be a excel curve fit.
Ideal we would want to avoid anything above 95% or below 5% as the values will likely start to go to asotopes.
This is what I would suggest:
- PW database provides values for monsters accuracy and evasion http://www.pwdatabase.com/ms/mob
- you get %values when you select a monster
- you can change your accuracy by equipping misty forest rings
- you can change your evasion by buffing or ornaments
we can easily collect quite a few data points for accuracy and evasion this way. Also accuracy may have a level component to it, so for simplicity sake only compare values for mobs at your same level.
So if you collect data for this project post it something like so..
lvl 80
Mob accuracy - 1580
Mob evasion - 2000
My accuracy - 3000, 95% hit
My accuracy - 4500, 99% hit
my evasion - 2500, 23% miss
my evasion - 3000, 30% miss
After we have gotten a handful of data points we can analyzes it to find a formula, i must admit this is not my strong point. The best analyzes I could do would be a excel curve fit.
Ideal we would want to avoid anything above 95% or below 5% as the values will likely start to go to asotopes.
Post edited by Nightwhisper - Harshlands on
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Comments
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http://www.funnycorner.net/funny-pictures/5821/Try-not-to-fail.jpgNightwhisper - Harshlands wrote: »Hello, I was thinking about the rates for evasion. Many people say evasion is useless but I'm not convinced. I would like to establish a formula for this.
This is what I would suggest:
- PW database provides values for monsters accuracy and evasion http://www.pwdatabase.com/ms/mob
b:lipcurl evasion is broken.. doesnt matter if you have 100000 or 100..[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Face the fear. Face a war. Face the world.
Leeching CQ salary since 09'
Many names, Common Faces.0 -
do you KNOW this? or is this what everyone tells you? How do you know this, convince me plz.0
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He's kind of an archer...so I'm sure he's felt evasion's failures lol
Oh, and i don't see mobs acc and evasion stats anywhere. Not on PWdatabase at least
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Also, your link is to PW-MS, not PWI.If you disregard what I say because of who I am or because of the contents of what I said, you are a fool.
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Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »Also, your link is to PW-MS, not PWI.
that not matter if u want check the mob stat then everywhere is same.0 -
To calculate the evasion probability:Your evasion rate = 1000*(Your evasion)/(Oponent's accuracy)
Evasion probability = (Your evasion rate)/[40*(Oponent's level) + (your evasion rate)]
This is not 100% accurate, but it is 95% accurate on normal mobs (assuming they all have 2500 accuracy) and it is fairly accurate on pvp.
So, for example, you go all out on evasion and reach 15k evasion. You face a lv 75 archer with 5k accuracy. Your evasion rate is 15000*1000/5000 = 3000. Your evasion probability is 3000/(40*75+3000) = 50%
Now you have a normal endgame archer build with 5k evasion. You face a lv 100 archer with 7k accuracy. Your evasion rate is 5000*1000/7000 = 714
Your evasion probability is 714/(40*100+714) = 15%
Evasion is NOT broken, it just works perfectly, the problem is that it seems less efficient than physical defense because everyone stacks accuracy endgame, and magic doesnt miss. For example, when facing someone with say, 5000 accuracy, if you have 50% damage reduction from 4000 physical defense, you will need 5 times that amount of evasion for it to be as efficient (20000 evasion = 50% chance to evade).
Thats why it seems useless, because it doesn't scale with level as good as defense, because your opponents start stacking accuracy. In pve though the progression is noticeable, since mobs accuracy doesnt change through the levels.0 -
In pve though the progression is noticeable, since mobs accuracy doesnt change through the levels.
Really now... cause that level 1 mob over there still hits me with melee 9+ times out of 10.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »Really now... cause that level 1 mob over there still hits me with melee 9+ times out of 10.
It seems so because luck is desperating. When you get hit all the time or u miss all the time u blame the game. When u get 4 crits in a row or dont miss at all against a higher lvl archer u simply feel thats the way it should be, though u know it isnt.
Mathematically speaking the formula is quite accurate. It also seems that minimum evasion probability is 4-5% so it doesnt matter what your accuracy is you will always fail 1 hit of every 20-25. Tested.0 -
mob accuracy definitely changes throughout the levels. you can click on mobs and see your evade chances, on lvl 1 mobs my evade chance is much much higher than mobs my levelElena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
Nope. What changes is your evasion probability, which depends on your evasion, oponent's accuracy and oponent's level... low level mobs have same accuracy (or similar) but obviously lower level, thus you have more evasion probability... it is simple.0
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Nope. What changes is your evasion probability, which depends on your evasion, oponent's accuracy and oponent's level... low level mobs have same accuracy (or similar) but obviously lower level, thus you have more evasion probability... it is simple.
And what evidence do you have that higher level mobs simply just don't have higher accuracy? Has there been any conclusive tests to show that level has any impact at all on evasion, and if so, does it draw any conclusions about accuracy being the same on every mob?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"People who quote themselves in their signatures are silly. I mean, they can just make up whatever **** they want, and since they said it in their siggie, its a quote." - Smobo0 -
Smobo - Heavens Tear wrote: »And what evidence do you have that higher level mobs simply just don't have higher accuracy? Has there been any conclusive tests to show that level has any impact at all on evasion, and if so, does it draw any conclusions about accuracy being the same on every mob?
No, i dont have any evidence, I don't know how is the game coded. It can be as you say, of course. But i can say the laws of physics are not put there just because of that. There are experiments and a mathematical law is induced from those experiments. Same here. I did a couple of experiments through my leveling, and I induced a formula from them. The formula its similar to the formula used to calculate damage reduction % from phy and mag defense, so it makes sense to me
If you have a formula which adjusts better the evasion % feel free to post it. Not saying mine is the correct one, but it is the only up to now, and it works...0 -
Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »He's kind of an archer...so I'm sure he's felt evasion's failures lol
Oh, and i don't see mobs acc and evasion stats anywhere. Not on PWdatabase at least
now... that is embarrassing... i could have sworn that I saw evasion stats on mobs somewhere at some point in time...
steelmyth: Thanks for your formula, I'm curious how you came up with that.0 -
get a veno to tame the mob, it will list the acc/eva[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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1: If you are this worried about accuracy, make a magic class
2: If you are this worried about evasion, make assassin(can't be hit invisible)
3: Mobs have different accuracy and evasion. Take Khewy for example or ranged mobs vs. melee. This could never be calculated. You would have to test each level of evasion for every mob in the game. Let me know your results in 2020.
1a: Another solution, get insane accuracy. I have 7.5k+ and the concept of missing other than shooting Wizzeled, doesn't phase me
2a: There is no way to actually hold enough evasion for a period of time against a mob your level efficiently. I have 5k+ evasion and against most mobs I stand at about 35% evasion when they're at my level. Which means you'll need around ~15k by level ~95 to evade efficiently
3a: Kill everything in 1 hitSay my name 3 times, I dare you.
~Technotic
TrueMyths.Guildplex.com0 -
To calculate the evasion probability:
This is not 100% accurate, but it is 95% accurate on normal mobs (assuming they all have 2500 accuracy) and it is fairly accurate on pvp.
Evasion is NOT broken, it just works perfectly, the problem is that it seems less efficient than physical defense because everyone stacks accuracy endgame, and magic doesnt . For example, when facing someone with say, 5000 accuracy, if you have 50% damage reduction from 4000 physical defense, you will need 5 times that amount of evasion for it to be as efficient (20000 evasion = 50% chance to evade).
Thats why it seems useless, because it doesn't scale with level as good as defense, because your opponents start stacking accuracy. In pve though the progression is noticeable, since mobs accuracy doesnt change through the levels.
As ya say everyone stack acu with mysty n cv ring.
If all this 95%formula work, how do I get to miss arcane full magic wiz/clerics
people with less than 1k evasion, it is based in % true.. But stacking evasion or accu would never be a huge improvement.. Like when u add pdef or mdef.
Even if u use 79eva skill people will miss 1 or 2 from the 5shots
and I get 28k evasion.. Evasion is more of a chance.. Like cri.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Face the fear. Face a war. Face the world.
Leeching CQ salary since 09'
Many names, Common Faces.0 -
Mathematically speaking the formula is quite accurate. It also seems that minimum evasion probability is 4-5% so it doesnt matter what your accuracy is you will always fail 1 hit of every 20-25. Tested.
I think this is wrong and there is no minimum evade chance with mobs. With 8k accuracy I have 99% accuracy on a WB. I tested this once and missed something like 4 shots out of 360.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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i've had 100% accuracy before on mobs. it is 100%, i never missed.Say my name 3 times, I dare you.
~Technotic
TrueMyths.Guildplex.com0 -
Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »i've had 100% accuracy before on mobs. it is 100%, i never missed.
me has 100% accuracy on everything.
b:chuckle
(assassin's "evasion skill" doesn't count since it isn't even evasion and more like 25% chance of being immune to damage...)
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but remember. they're not overpowered *sarcasm*Say my name 3 times, I dare you.
~Technotic
TrueMyths.Guildplex.com0 -
Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »i've had 100% accuracy before on mobs. it is 100%, i never missed.
on what lv mob? same lv than u?0 -
Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »i've had 100% accuracy before on mobs. it is 100%, i never missed.
I'm curious to know what level these mobs were in comparison to your own.
Sorry but you aren't that special and you certainly aren't that epic. You're going to miss sometimes and that is the only guarantee that we have so far in this thread. That you will miss sometimes.
I would offer up my own mathematics but having been awake for 20 hours straight and getting no sleep, it is safe to say my mathematics would probably fail somewhere and I'd make an **** of myself. Perhaps after I have slept I shall take a whack at it... or maybe I won't.
I personally feel I miss a lot for my class, but pah, when you see 4k evasion your mind automatically assumes you won't miss very often and will have a rage when you do miss. Brains are tricky like that.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »Really now... cause that level 1 mob over there still hits me with melee 9+ times out of 10.
Not to mention knocking you off your mount and interrupting your barrage and causing that charm to tick b:shocked0 -
Players had 100% accuracy on the snowmen and they could sometimes be missed.
I wouldn't put too much faith in mob accuracy strictly following a mathematical equation. Before the genie balance pass you could reduce accuracy to zero on a target with Blind and another class skill (like venos fox's blind), -70% + -70%. The mob would miss more but it was nowhere near zero accuracy.0 -
I am currently a Lvl 59 Assassin with 3175 Evasion. With Archer buff 4125. I'm a PVE player. Evasion against same level mobs is 36% (w/o buff). The average "miss" is 1/4 strikes from creature, occassionally 2/4. Evasion is far from useless. Matter of fact it is very fun, mainly because it's hardly used (due to "know it alls" in the forums deterring others from using it) and because it's very effective with the Assassin skills. Use Rib Strike to lessen creatures att rate by 50% and you can potentially take the monster down unscathed. Or just take one or two hits (some absorbed with Bloodpaint). I hardly use HP pots. Occassionally I do, naturally. I use more MP pots than anything.
Now here is the real fun: BHs. The mobs in the BH are lower level than you. On my BH 39 run my evasion was 48% with Archer buff! It was very fun indeed. I felt like Spiderman.
I'm on the road to continuously testing Evasion. I've chosen the Evasion SIN path. So far I am very successful. Through the use of Ecatomb.com I've calculated potential Evasion stats at endgame. Let me just say it is sickeningly high. Demon Bloodpaint grants the caster 50% Evasion! Not to mention the other +Evasion % skills and items that could potentially be gotten. I can't wait to get there.
I've learned a valuable lesson in this game. TEST THINGS OUT FOR YOURSELF. To try to get your answer by reading these forums can be very discouraging. Too many "know it alls" who insult and squash originality and exersice their own "self-rightness" is disgusting. If I were to listen to them I wouldn't have this SIN, which has turned out to be my favorite character out of them all. I do not discount the posts that do aim to help. Unfortunately there are an overwhelming number of junk posts. It's unfortunate.
Citrines are the common shard most players use. The reason is that its a defense buffer against all forms of attack. A common rebutal against Ambers is that it has no defense against MAG attacks. This is true. But speaking as a SIN, we have several means of handling MAG mobs to disrupt their viscious spells. And their HP is not as high. So we simply use "Tackling Slash" to prevent them from running and "Deep Sting" to disrupt their casting. By the time they try and cast again they're dead. As for Melee mobs, all a SIN needs do is Shadow Jump to them (placing you dead in middle of them), immediately use Tackling Slash and you got a 9 second stun on them because they cant swing since your dead center of them. And we also have Rib Strike to slow their attack down 50% if need be.
Back on Citrine vs. Amber...sure, more HP is a safe way to go. No one can dispute that. However, how much HP will you have as a buffer vs. how much damage you "dodged"?
At this moment it seems about the same. But time will tell as I level to higher Evasion. Ambers are also a more affordable way to go. Its approx 1/3rd the price of a Citrine! (I've seen it as high as 1/2 price of citrine).
As far as Bosses go, AOE was the major concern of mine. Thats when Geinie skills comes in. I can avoid any AOE now. And don't forget about spark (the invulnerability skill) to avoid AOE. But with a good Cleric in squad using BB, its not a problem.
I hoped this has helped. I'm very content with my SIN and succeeding.0 -
Devils_Doll - Sanctuary wrote: »I am currently a Lvl 59 Assassin with 3175 Evasion. With Archer buff 4125. I'm a PVE player. Evasion against same level mobs is 36% (w/o buff). The average "miss" is 1/4 strikes from creature, occassionally 2/4. Evasion is far from useless. Matter of fact it is very fun, mainly because it's hardly used (due to "know it alls" in the forums deterring others from using it) and because it's very effective with the Assassin skills. Use Rib Strike to lessen creatures att rate by 50% and you can potentially take the monster down unscathed. Or just take one or two hits (some absorbed with Bloodpaint). I hardly use HP pots. Occassionally I do, naturally. I use more MP pots than anything.
Now here is the real fun: BHs. The mobs in the BH are lower level than you. On my BH 39 run my evasion was 48% with Archer buff! It was very fun indeed. I felt like Spiderman.
I'm on the road to continuously testing Evasion. I've chosen the Evasion SIN path. So far I am very successful. Through the use of Ecatomb.com I've calculated potential Evasion stats at endgame. Let me just say it is sickeningly high. Demon Bloodpaint grants the caster 50% Evasion! Not to mention the other +Evasion % skills and items that could potentially be gotten. I can't wait to get there.
I've learned a valuable lesson in this game. TEST THINGS OUT FOR YOURSELF. To try to get your answer by reading these forums can be very discouraging. Too many "know it alls" who insult and squash originality and exersice their own "self-rightness" is disgusting. If I were to listen to them I wouldn't have this SIN, which has turned out to be my favorite character out of them all. I do not discount the posts that do aim to help. Unfortunately there are an overwhelming number of junk posts. It's unfortunate.
Citrines are the common shard most players use. The reason is that its a defense buffer against all forms of attack. A common rebutal against Ambers is that it has no defense against MAG attacks. This is true. But speaking as a SIN, we have several means of handling MAG mobs to disrupt their viscious spells. And their HP is not as high. So we simply use "Tackling Slash" to prevent them from running and "Deep Sting" to disrupt their casting. By the time they try and cast again they're dead. As for Melee mobs, all a SIN needs do is Shadow Jump to them (placing you dead in middle of them), immediately use Tackling Slash and you got a 9 second stun on them because they cant swing since your dead center of them. And we also have Rib Strike to slow their attack down 50% if need be.
Back on Citrine vs. Amber...sure, more HP is a safe way to go. No one can dispute that. However, how much HP will you have as a buffer vs. how much damage you "dodged"?
At this moment it seems about the same. But time will tell as I level to higher Evasion. Ambers are also a more affordable way to go. Its approx 1/3rd the price of a Citrine! (I've seen it as high as 1/2 price of citrine).
As far as Bosses go, AOE was the major concern of mine. Thats when Geinie skills comes in. I can avoid any AOE now. And don't forget about spark (the invulnerability skill) to avoid AOE. But with a good Cleric in squad using BB, its not a problem.
I hoped this has helped. I'm very content with my SIN and succeeding.
Necro.The information and opinions ehre might be outdated already.
Evasion works less at the higher levels since there are more,better accuracy adds than evasion adds.
Also,your example only extends to sins and not other classes.0 -
I experimented elsewhere with Evasion. I had max evasion stones in 4 sockets on each armour item and I had all evasion items at +12.
I could stand and simply never be hit by any bm or barb (until they used skills of course). It was kinda fun being almost 100% unhittable.
With one 50% accuracy ring they still could hardly ever hit me. With two 50% accuracy rings things got better for them - but the evasion was still reasonably effective.
Physical mobs, of course, couldn't hit me.
But, of course, without being able to evade skills, evasion is nearly useless in pvp.
The way to make evasion usable in this game would be to give it a % possibility of evading skills and magic.
I would love evasion to become viable. It makes you feel so light and agile having an effective defence without it being physical. It is a potentially brilliant part of the game that isn't being used.
EDIT: by the way I'm talking about well over 20k (buffed) Evasion here.0 -
Players had 100% accuracy on the snowmen and they could sometimes be missed.
I am sure that that was a rounding issue. Other statistics also have display values which are less precise than their actual values.KageYingZi - Heavens Tear wrote: »Necro.
Yes. b:sadAldryami - Sanctuary wrote: »The way to make evasion usable in this game would be to give it a % possibility of evading skills and magic.
They implemented that for assassins...
Apparently the game designers felt that outranging everyone else and being able to evade skills was too much?0 -
Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
Apparently the game designers felt that outranging everyone else and being able to evade skills was too much?
Yea but we hardly outrange venos (pets), wizards (spells) or clerics (magic) by much really. And our range only allows a few 'put put puts' before the BM has us stun locked and 5aps'd up the wrongun.
Functional Evasion would be a beautiful thing in this game.0 -
I know a BM with full 4 socket armor filled with Perfect Amber Shards.Feel free to PM me for help.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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