Veno: Demon or Sage?

I hear most Venos go sage for the healing skills or survivability skills.There is thread do you regret going demon in this forum and most said yes.

Sage here due to my play style...I don't kite, I stay and fight it out live or die...If I kited I'd have gone demon...No regrets about Sage...

Sage skills it's all about watching AH...I saw wood mastery for 10 mil one time, meta boost for 3.5/4 mil (got that in the bank waiting on me now...) next time I saw meta boost in AH and since then it's been at 7/8 mil.

if you're a token user take the risk and make a book using tokens...I made 2 that way...they were identical...but the 2nd one sold for 30 mil in the AH...bought 4 skills with that money...

Sage spark makes it worth it alone imo. Also, sage degen is awesome (expensive). Both sage/demon purges are pretty nice. The ironwood is dependent on your preference, hard to choose that one. But, thats just me.

This forum (for some odd reason) is very sage veno sided. Since a lot has been said about Sage, I'll talk Demon.

Some of the Demon benefits:

Demon Venoumous - I consider this nearly OP; it's a constant 100% chance debuff that adds about 2-3k more damage to any mob with normal spam skills (my current m.atk is around 6-7K due to an unrefined weapon). I'm fairly sure that it adds nearly 4k to my Ironwood hit, and 6-7k per Ironwood crit. Add high -% channel gear and this damage quickly adds up. I have ripped agro off barbs many levels higher then me for fun.

Demon Lucky Scarab - Demon makes this into a spam skill. High damage, low cooldown. Bosses can't be stunned, so obviosly vs bosses the Demon version is superior.

In PvP its a toss up; 1 second more stun is hardly noticible, but delivering high damage 2 seconds faster can overcome a charm tick - your ticket to killing high HP classes.

Demon Summer Sprint - Your anti stun. With BMs, Archers and now Sins practically relying on stunning your butt to survive, this skill is very, very handy.

Demon Ironwood - Self explanatory really; any class dependent on high p.def who gets hit by this is toast. The loss of the constant debuff is hard at first, but the first time you see a barb go to zero and have the nix set on him, you understand that its more then worth it. In TW you will fight alongside other Demon venos; increasing the chance of the going off on that high HP barb.

Sage venos might argue that they get this skill in the form of Myriad Rainbow, but A) its not cheap (both coin and MP wise) and Demon can get it too, giving Demon 3 skills that lower p.def to 0, while sage still has only 2.

Demon Foxform - Combine this with Demon Summer sprint and you have a constant 10.4m/s run speed - you're faster then some maxed out landmounts. Its faster then genie Holy Path in the long run, and very useful to get to get from A->B when you can't ride your mount. You can also drop HP from your genie and replace it with something more useful.

You become the fastest running class with this skill combo.

Demon Parastitic Nova - Amp, stun, high damage all rolled into one. You will RB a lot endgame, doing Delta where chi is no issue. This skill is invaluble there. Even outside RB you can spark off, eat a chi pot then throw this badboy in TW into a group of people - you get the idea of the destruction it will casue.

Demon Bramble Guard - Simply superior to Sage version; lasts shorter but much more effective.

Demon Metabolic Boost/Natures Grace - Lower cooldown. You can perform the NG->ST->MB combo 90 seconds faster then Sage. You basically never have to worry about running out of MP again.

Demon Amplify - This is very debatable but the consensus is that if you are the only veno in the squad, Demon Amp will produce better results. Considering RB, where you will mostly be the only veno in the squad, this version is superior then Sage version.

Ouside RB you will struggle to find a Sage veno with Sage Amplify; its too expensive and demand too high.

Demo Crush Vigor - Free spark every minute.

Demon Wood Mastery - One of your main reasons to go Demon. In high end PvP the person who wins is usually the person who can overcome the HP charm. For that you need crit and spike damage. Sage does more damage overall, but when it comes to spikes, Demon wins.

There are more sublte bonuses for Demon too; perphaps if I had more time I would have written more about them. I'm sure I missed some good Demon skills too. One thing: Demon Lending Hand, a skill that I have yet to get. I'm not sure if it transfers 2 sparks and loses you 2 sparks or it transfers 2 sparks and you lose 1 spark. Perhaps someone can clean this one up.

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Many Sage venos say that they went Sage just for the 20% HP debuff. If anything, I find this silly. There is a whole other class who specializes in reducing HP.

Archers, both Demon and Sage, get a lvl100 skill that reduces HP by 18%. Failing that, any archer can lower HP by 16%. And endgane, when facing big bad bosses, you will have an archer next to you to make things go much faster.

So basically you go Sage to shave off 2% (4% at best) HP off a boss at endgame. Great? And don't say anything about a WB; there will be other Sage venos there to debuff it.

Sage skills also cost a hell lot more; even if they are inferior to Demon.

It really depends on your play style. I just heard that demon provides much more benefits to pvp style players. Sage provides a lot of chi gaining skills and is pretty helpful to those pve-ers like myself.

Read the threads. This one is really useful in distinguishing the differences.

Sage or Demon

_makina_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

I call BS on this. My wizards undine only adds 3k damage PVE on my lvl 10 divine pyro which is comparable to demon/sage ironwood. 10 second cooldown is far from a spam skill.

lvl 10 divine pryo :
Using the divine secrets of Fire cast a searing spell on the enemy
to inflict Fire damage equal to base magic damage plus 300%
of weapon damage plus 2994.7.

lvl 11 ironwood :
Throw a splinted bug at the enemy inflicting Wood damage equal to base magic damage plus 300% of weapon damage plus 2770.0.


Pure magic wizard with a +10 lunar wand with 1 sapphire gem and my magic attack unbuffed is 11k. Undine reduces magic def of fire/earth/water 60%. Venos are only 30% for wood so how are u doing more damage with that debuff then mine? My wand has such a little range that it is very reliable to compare how much damage my undine does and how much i do without it.


I'm not arguing for or against demon or sage but this just too much bs.

lol wut? this is veno sage vs veno demon. not veno vs wiz.

also, i went sage. and i love it. originally i had planned on going demon but finding out that ironwood was a gamble changed my mind. the only thing i feel im missing out on is the speed that demon venos have when they go fox/revert every 6 seconds for that extra speed boost. but that doesnt really.. do anything else.

and to the one who mentioned the tokens pack (advanced mystical pages to get a bundle of skill books), you do not get the full set. no venemous, ironwood, blazing, frost scarabs. im pretty sure fox form was also not in there. no bramble either. it's only 12 books, and we have more than 12 sage/demon skills.

Vinat - Sanctuary wrote: »

lol wut? this is veno sage vs veno demon. not veno vs wiz.

also, i went sage. and i love it. originally i had planned on going demon but finding out that ironwood was a gamble changed my mind. the only thing i feel im missing out on is the speed that demon venos have when they go fox/revert every 6 seconds for that extra speed boost. but that doesnt really.. do anything else.

and to the one who mentioned the tokens pack (advanced mystical pages to get a bundle of skill books), you do not get the full set. no venemous, ironwood, blazing, frost scarabs. im pretty sure fox form was also not in there. no bramble either. it's only 12 books, and we have more than 12 sage/demon skills.

Yeah duh but the person said the 30% debuff adds almost 4k to their ironwood. If my wiz's debuff at 60% doesn't do that then its pure bs.

Went Sage for pk when everyone told me not to. They told me that i would suck as a pk veno going sage.

They were wrong....

Basically, the way I've always been told, and the skills seem to confirm this...

Sage = Steady constant damage, support oriented.

Demon = High risk, extreme reward. Pain oriented.


Judging by the Venos I've known, both Sage, and Demon, this holds to be true. The + Crit on Demon, compared to the solid numbers in Sage, the various effects being a chance to completely destroy resists in Demon, as opposed to he lengthened, but reduced effects in Sage...

Demon is a gamble, but the payoff is tremendous. It still has power even when the effects don't work, and really, your luck will determine if the average of those times is better compared to Sage's relatively risk-free style.

axt57 wrote: »

First thing, Ironwood has 8 seconds cooldown and since I can fit it neatly between 2 venomous scarabs, I deem it as a spam skill.

Secondly, I was talking about damage after being buffed.

Not talking about ironwood when i said 10 second cooldown was talking about lucky scarab.

Edit - What does being buffed have to do with it? What you got 7-8k magic attack now? I have 11k unbuffed that is more then what u got and i still dont 4k extra on a mob my lvl with undine debuff >.>......if you triple sparked that be diff but regularly no way.

axt57 wrote: »

One thing: Demon Lending Hand, a skill that I have yet to get. I'm not sure if it transfers 2 sparks and loses you 2 sparks or it transfers 2 sparks and you lose 1 spark. Perhaps someone can clean this one up.

It transfers 2 sparks at the cost of only 1 spark. In this case, the same benefit applies to both Sage and Demon Venos; a chance of transferring an (additional) spark with no spark cost.

I went Sage for the Sage chi skill, 100% Leech, Foxform offensive and defensive benefits, the additional 20% Magic Attack power on Sage Pet Heal, and Summer Sprint purify.

Sometimes I sorta wish I went Demon for the Foxform speed and Nova Amp, but it doesn't bother me that much. I probably would've been satisfied regardless of which cultivation path I chose.

sleepcat wrote: »

the additional 20% Magic Attack power on Sage Pet Heal,

Sage pet heal? Is that a secret skill? More info please!

Shifong - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Why is sage so good for those two things?
Fox form, melee mastery and leech make my life a lot easier when i'm in fox form. I enjoy the extra damage and the extra pdef i get,

The obvious skills (pdef from Fox Form and attack from Melee Mastery) favor Sage. But Sage triple spark gives 900% bonus to magic attack and 500% bonus to physical attack, while Demon triple spark gives 700% bonus to magic attack and 650% bonus to physical attack.

So it really is a mixed bag, and demon has plusses for fox form too. Demon Fox Wallop (20% chance to make all your hits critical for next 5 sec) is probably the best PvP skill a veno can get. The skill can be spammed every 3 seconds, so you should be able to spend 33% of your time in auto-crit mode. I went Sage for the consistency, but I think a Demon fox taking full advantage of this could outdo Sage's Melee Mastery. At 240 str, Sage Melee Mastery works out to a 21% increase in melee damage compared to level 10, 12% increase compared to Demon.

even if i go heavy again one day i still like demon skills more than sage for fox form.
- that extra pdef from sage fox form is almost overkill if you are already heavy so its better as pure arcane imo, we are talking about 120% vs 150%.
- accuracy is nice 200% vs 250%, you have better accuracy as sage but keep in mid that heavy venos have probably 1k (or under) accuracy which is very very low. going 100% more accuracy with rings helps but its still low, the only way to increase it is to go light or increase dex... or learn demon soul degeneration.
- now melee mastery, 200% vs 150% and 3% more crits. this favor sage for melee hits but all skills use base physical damage in calculation so no point in that imo

what i want to say, imo sage is better for melee hits (maybe not sparks) but i like demon fox form skills more. keep in mind that no wizard gonna stand there to melee him, they just jump away. same with blademasters, and not to mention tiger barbs that have almost same speed as demon fox. every class can find a way to run from a lol melee veno that has no range damage skill in fox form. even demon fox form i find it better for tw, combine that with demon summer sprint. so forget about heavy melee venos coz i never heard of a succesful veno like that

how many times you use sage soul degeneration? if you do bh/fb you dont do them alone, if you do TT is faster in squad. if you go solo, at some bosses its almost impossible to throw a skill between heals unless you have -channeling or high lvl with good gear. but since ppl decide to go solo, what is 20% more time from your already wasted time soloing?

it is all playstyle in the end but ppl from pve servers tend to go more sage than demon. tho.. i disagree with axt57 in general but its true that a lucky crit over a demon ironwood can kill even good barbs, imagine that on poor arcane but that its just luck while sage has a more stable damage. also count what pots do you use and what genies skills do you like when you go sage/demon. btw im demon so probably i tend to favor demon over sage but both have good skills so its hard choise.

- accuracy is nice 200% vs 250%, you have better accuracy as sage but keep in mid that heavy venos have probably 1k (or under) accuracy which is very very low. going 100% more accuracy with rings helps but its still low, the only way to increase it is to go light or increase dex... or learn demon soul degeneration.

Never had problems with my accuracy against archers in TW in fox form.

- now melee mastery, 200% vs 150% and 3% more crits. this favor sage for melee hits but all skills use base physical damage in calculation so no point in that imo

It's a waste of time to use skills for pure dps. I only use them for the effect that i want at that moment.

keep in mind that no wizard gonna stand there to melee him, they just jump away. same with blademasters, and not to mention tiger barbs that have almost same speed as demon fox.

Usually they run away, but that's also a good thing in TW because it means he's ineffective at that moment, leaving his guildies. Same for archers, but lots of them actually stand their ground and i killed quite a few in fox form. As for bm's and barbs, going fox form on them is a waste of time.
Holy path does wonders to catch people up btw.

so forget about heavy melee venos coz i never heard of a succesful veno like that

I can call myself rather succesful. But i only go melee fox form when i can be succesful. Over 95% of the time my damage comes from magic, and when i go fox form, 90% of the time it's to do something else instead of doing damage.
I guess it didn't work out for you if you ever TW'd before as heavy veno.

how many times you use sage soul degeneration?

A lot. On every boss. I love it, even if it saves me 1 minute. Been doing world bosses more lately, and on those it's incredibly useful.
And having sage soul degen has nothing to do with being in a squad or going solo. Even in squad it's really good to have it, especially if there is no archer. Bosses in 3-2 and 3-3 can take a couple minutes to take down.

Both sage and demon are really nice. But if I consider genie skills and remedy together with the skills, i find sage more usefull for myself and my playstyle.

You might want to see the Ecatomb Fansite which has a great, functional, and accurate list of all the skills and what changes as you go demon/sage...

http://www.ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php

I know a lot of venos go demon, but sage also has its benefits. For me, I'll probably go demon.... for a stupid reason... but I like the demon spark eruption