What I've been too lazy to write for a while~

Devoted - Lost City
Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
edited August 2010 in Archer
Read it if you must... my thoughts on endgame. You might think differently and that is good, post your ideas. If you decide to post a two sentence response with flimsy arguments I'll simply ignore them and assume you only know enough about this game to write two sentences. If I had to state my background for some absurd reason: I've played this game since November 2007 and have experienced pvp playing every class 90+ except for assassins and psychics. This is not an archer sucks endgame thread. This is me giving my personal opinion as to where we stand which is somewhere well above all the QQuseless posts and below the "we are average" posts.

In response to this thread: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=570101

As for archers sucking endgame, I can say it's starting to snowball. True this class is at a disadvantage at 100 - I'll explain later - but now it's getting overused and exaggerated. There are situations where it's clearly prevalent that the odds are stacked against us but a lot of it is now people thinking they are good and their class just sucks.

To further understand why archers are the target of so much QQ you need to not only understand how each class works in pvp but what their strengths and weaknesses are.

An archers strength comes from their high attack speed coupled with moderate damage and amplified by their high crit rate. We also are a very flexible class in terms of physical and magical attacks, a 3-4.5 second stun, an 8 second paralyse, a continuous high damage aoe and plenty more skills specific to certain situations. These are the reasons I picked an archer, I liked the flexibility we had at long range. Another thing that could be considered is an archers armor. On paper, armor that gives a balanced amount of physical and magical defense would be amazing - adding even more flexibility to this class. Archers seem like the perfect solo pvp class with enough skills to be of use in group pvp and tw. This point can be reinforced by the pvp rankings. Generally archers make up the majority of the rankings due to our flexibility. If you are flying around searching for kills one class you see is essentially just as easy as another class. This is very general but the reason why most pvper's are archers is their flexibility.

The above is borderline the experience I had when leveling back in 2008, which I predicted. Archers are easily the most face-roll-on-keyboard class from 60 (under 60 pvp is serious business) to 90. We are at our peak at 70, lose some ground at 77 with the invention of "hey melees', you can't miss now!" and the 70 axes also known as "wtf just happened?" All robes are still a joke, if they last longer than your 3 second stun they are cheating. Really, the only class you should be worried about are veno's with nixes (those didn't exist back in the day /rockingchair)

At 90 you not only lose all the ground you had but each class steamrolls past you, backs up, runs over you again and doesn't even call an ambulance. Remember my statement about how on paper armor with equally balanced defenses seemed good? Well at 90+ robes and their lackluster physical defense get a boost due to their ornaments being exclusively physical defense and lunar rings at 95, they also get a cape that gives 432 physical defense or 500. Mages get a 120%-150% physical defense buff and clerics still have plume shield. Not only does this bring robes physical defense above and beyond an archers, they have a ton of magic defense due to their armor and stat build. On the other end of the spectrum, heavy armor is the best armor in the game. A massive amount of physical defense, a decent amount of magical defense and the most hp per refine out of the three armors (why do you think venos restat heavy?). Since heavy armor gives such a high amount of physical defense most wear magical defense ornaments. Lunar rings give more magical defense and you can get 100 or 250 more magical defense from capes. Blademasters can reach 10k of each defense with magic sutra and werebeasts stack so much vit their magic defense receives a hefty boost. Now balanced armor doesn't seem so good. Since we can't increase our defenses with self buffs we will always be the class with the worst defenses. Hey, at least we got our trusty evasion.

Having balanced armor isn't all that bad. We still can achieve respectable defenses at endgame but that doesn't solve our problem. Somewhere between consecutive steamroller pass overs our damage decreased, no longer can we just simply bypass an opponents charm or one shot them. This can be attributed to us having terrible designed skills for endgame. With the high amount of physical defense robes have we can't bypass their charms with a simple take aim (crit, sharptooth and extreme poison can sometimes but lets remember mages have 10k physical defense and clerics a decent amount of defense and high hp) so spamming skills on them isn't your best bet. This is where demon steps up to the plate. Quickshot is an amazing skill and is one of the main reasons archers still leave safe zone, even if you have 10k pdef moderate damage shots hurt when they come at over 1 per second with a 40% chance to crit. Along with attacking zthuper fast if you sold your leg to this company you also have a chance to debuff the person guaranteeing an easy kill. Now to be able to attack fast enough to kill someone with normal attacks you need to stack -interval. This situation is bittersweet - to maximize -interval both HH99 heavy adorns are needed, this seems counterintuitive due to the fact you are stacking -interval to kill magic casters but are equipping physical defense adorns. With the event gears a respectable attack speed can be achieved without resorting to HH99 heavy adorns but a decently refined bow is recommended to make up for the decrease in speed. If you can't cash shop a pixel tomb for 100mil, an event cape for 60mil and a bow for 70mil (who doesn't tho nowadays?) you are recommended to wear the two HH99 heavy adorns - you don't have to but with a low refined bow you won't be killing many buffed robes.

For heavy armors we have little flexibility when dealing with them. Sharptooth is a must to decrease their high health or I recommend Blood Vow which decreases their hp by 18% and amplifies the damage they take making them more manageable. We have three metal attacks which prove my previously mentioned point that our skills were designed terribly for endgame. Not a single attack is weapon percentage based. Mages power comes from this percentage (ignoring opdine of course) and our magic skills are weak base damage + **** bonus. All we have is the metal debuff but that doesn't come close to percentage based magic attacks. Seeing as none of these skills hit hard bypassing a heavy armor's charm only happens under ideal situations. Resorting to out-dpsing their charm is also hard due to our long casting time and frequent need to kite from the overpowered melees. Again, blood vow is an amazing skill and stacked with extreme poison and a few timely crits a melee can go from 60% hp → charm tick with blood vow proc'd to dead.

One last point I would like to make is regarding one of our strengths. When developers created the classes they gave archers moderate (yet the highest) physical attack in the game. Over long periods of time we deal the second highest amount of damage making us the ideal DD class for bosses (sharptooth too of course). In pvp this means nothing, our damage is terrible for spiking charms and the way this was dealt with was giving archers an arguably class specific trait ----
Post edited by Devoted - Lost City on
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Comments

  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    criticals. Critical hit rate is determined by dex. Twenty dex results in an increase of 1% critical hit rate. This agrees with the fact that archers get their damage from dex, melees' get their damage from strength (pre assassin era) and casters get their damage from int. So archers get a high crit rate, melees' get a noticeable crit rate and casters stay at 1%. This is fair because an archers crit is comparable to a casters normal attack. A caster critting was a fluke, a lucky occurrence that didn't hinder most pvp fights. Enter anniversary packs. Now casters not only have a noticeable amount of crit they can almost depend upon it. Please don't say archer's can get the same benefit too... 8% -> 16% isn't the same as 32% -> 40%.

    Cut off -- too lazy to rewrite last two paragraphs. They were good too. :<
  • MagicHamsta - Lost City
    MagicHamsta - Lost City Posts: 10,466 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    =(

    *goes off to level to 90+ and get some nice +crit rings*
    b:chuckle

    o wait....me still need decent 80 gear.
    ._.
    b:surrender
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  • Absoluth - Heavens Tear
    Absoluth - Heavens Tear Posts: 764 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Kinda bums me out being the weakest class in game. I used to roll all my friends of any class when we were at our 80s. Now i cant kill even a 90+ cleric, which was like my easiest target. Every other class gets a great boost with sage/demon skills. Archers get left behind. Game developing failed miserably when they made archers rely on evasion, yet meelee classes rarely miss and mag classes never miss.
    Also, we have zero buffs :/

    Evasion should in a way work as a damage reducing factor. In theory, if you're trying to dodge something and still get hit, on your attempt of 'evading' the hit you'll most likely make the attacker miss a 'critical point', thus making you take a lesser blow than expected. Archer evasion should follow that concept. Both phys and mag dmg should be reduced on high evasion players. Its not just because im an archer that im saying it. Its just logical.

    Oh well...back to hiding behind tougher classes.
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  • Shadowvzs - Lost City
    Shadowvzs - Lost City Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Kinda bums me out being the weakest class in game. I used to roll all my friends of any class when we were at our 80s. Now i cant kill even a 90+ cleric, which was like my easiest target. Every other class gets a great boost with sage/demon skills. Archers get left behind. Game developing failed miserably when they made archers rely on evasion, yet meelee classes rarely miss and mag classes never miss.
    Also, we have zero buffs :/

    Evasion should in a way work as a damage reducing factor. In theory, if you're trying to dodge something and still get hit, on your attempt of 'evading' the hit you'll most likely make the attacker miss a 'critical point', thus making you take a lesser blow than expected. Archer evasion should follow that concept. Both phys and mag dmg should be reduced on high evasion players. Its not just because im an archer that im saying it. Its just logical.

    Oh well...back to hiding behind tougher classes.


    in this game the evasion is sucks... a barb, bm dont miss on u too much time since on pvp server most of 90+ barb or bm got accurancy ring and they dont miss to much anymore. lv100 skill a bit helpfull but light armor got few problem later without neck/belt refine.

    i mainly prefer the tw, there i dont feel the armor weakness because i try sniping from background, i cant say the demon/sage is sucks,mainly for me the 3rd spark important,that good dmg boost.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    well at least now you can have your -interval with the 2 lionheart orns and use heavily refined eternal solitudes for mag def *shrug*

    not to mention a **** 59 skill...u'd think the devs would give it a +x00% weapon dmg addon at least considering the fact that every other spark DoT has a weapon dmg bonus or an additional flat add-on >.>
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  • WaffleChan - Sanctuary
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary Posts: 2,897 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    (why do you think venos restat heavy?).
    i stopped reading here...

    vit arcane + garnets = the superior of all veno builds :|. geared like you said at 100 its easy to pack 8-10k hp, 8-10k matk, 8k def/9k mdef and almost 20% crit. its pretty scary =D
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    advice to fledgling archers:
    Going sage is like drunken sex, at first she may look good, but when you wake up the next morning; you'll look at her and go WHAT HAVE I DONE.
  • Lusca - Sanctuary
    Lusca - Sanctuary Posts: 754 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Evasion should in a way work as a damage reducing factor. In theory, if you're trying to dodge something and still get hit, on your attempt of 'evading' the hit you'll most likely make the attacker miss a 'critical point', thus making you take a lesser blow than expected. Archer evasion should follow that concept. Both phys and mag dmg should be reduced on high evasion players. Its not just because im an archer that im saying it. Its just logical.


    lol maybe they should add something like the higher dex you have the lower your chance to get hit by a crit is

    so it wouldn't just be based on the opponents crit rate but also on your dex to determine if it's a crit or not
  • WaffleChan - Sanctuary
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary Posts: 2,897 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=a299f9df7e7ac64e <- how id build my vit arcane veno. that thing would tear you apart even without a flaming chicken lol.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    advice to fledgling archers:
    Going sage is like drunken sex, at first she may look good, but when you wake up the next morning; you'll look at her and go WHAT HAVE I DONE.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    vit arcane veno = 2 shot HA veno = OH GOD NUUUUUUUUUUUUU


    just a bm's prespective here
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    i stopped reading here...

    vit arcane + garnets = the superior of all veno builds :|. geared like you said at 100 its easy to pack 8-10k hp, 8-10k matk, 8k def/9k mdef and almost 20% crit. its pretty scary =D

    this kind of supports Devote's point that Arcane gets decent pdef endgame. i don't know why you would stop reading, heavy armor veno still works and is still formidable, if not as much as arcane vit at end game. it's still true that light armor offers the unsatisfactory protection in the game.
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  • Tomiko - Heavens Tear
    Tomiko - Heavens Tear Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    I started in Nov 07 as well and yeah all you said is basically true.

    Evasion was useful back in the day. Today evasion isn't worth gearing for with how easy it is to get high accuracy.

    Venos were already above average in a 1 vs 1 before nix, but nix make them overpowered for a long time until people's gear catches up.

    Mages have always been the strongest endgame pvp class, and yes with the anni pks it makes the gap even wider.

    From a 1 vs 1 perspective I would say archers are below average because of defenses, close range penalty, and the need to kite effectively. From a pk perspective I would say we are average for the fact we are versatile like you said. From a mass pvp perspective I would say we are above average and I think that is where we shine the most is in the thick of battle where we can keep range more easily and barrage.

    Archer is the most fun to play, that's my opinion. But you know what, who is sexier than we are? Nobody, and that's a fact.
  • TigerLily - Lost City
    TigerLily - Lost City Posts: 1,209 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    As much as i agree with most of this, at least as archer you have the option to pay to win. If you play cleric or Bm - 2 other classes that devs decided to neglect endgame - you cant even pay 5000 usd and get rank 8 lol.

    Its not so much archers being nerfed but a noticeable unbalance between the classes in pvp endgame where barbs + veno gets all the pro skills and wizards gets all the dmg.

    Just look at the crazy cash shopping bms on Lost city, they have +10+12 everything socketing withs savant stones and g11 magic stones, they still get 1 shoot by wizards and molested by barbs in average gear. Or losing to venos in **** gear kiting them around til 100% armor break procs. Doesnt matter how much they pay, they will never win.

    Or clerics, even tho they have several controlling skills like sleep and paralyze, they truly lack offensive skills and dmg. In order to not be 1-2 shots in mass pvp they have to pretty much max out vitality losing all attack unless they +10 weapon. Never heard of a cleric **** a lvl 100 barb 1v1 where both have similar gear.

    But archers at low 90+ with like a binding radiance +5 is probably the weakest class in the game tho. You cant compete on equal terms against any class since you lack both dmg and defense. I know i couldn't kill **** on my lvl til i had a highly refined cv - bow lol.
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Lily the wr's you are referring to suck at their class. Warriors aren't even close to gimped endgame - they just require some skill. Clerics can be considered bad 1v1 but they are the support class, they are supposed to stay alive and keep others alive. Clerics were almost rendered obsolete in this game due to heiros. So yeah they aren't the best endgame but for their role nothing can compare :/
  • ChaoticTears - Harshlands
    ChaoticTears - Harshlands Posts: 323 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Very interesting read Devoted well thought out +1
    in this game the evasion is sucks... a barb, bm dont miss on u too much time since on pvp server most of 90+ barb or bm got accurancy ring and they dont miss to much anymore

    Also dont forget times have moved on. More and more BM's are waving goodbye to the stagnant pure axe low acc builds, and are stating more Dex to go multi path and use fists.
    With Bm's getting the most Acc per Dex point than any other class, well built Bm's nowadays are not going to miss much... Misties etc further add to that.
  • WaffleChan - Sanctuary
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary Posts: 2,897 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Just look at the crazy cash shopping bms on Lost city, they have +10+12 everything socketing withs savant stones and g11 magic stones, they still get 1 shoot by wizards and molested by barbs in average gear. Or losing to venos in **** gear kiting them around til 100% armor break procs. Doesnt matter how much they pay, they will never win.
    BMs are no where near as bad as you claim. with balance, thunder storm, absolute domain and a decent multiweapon dex build; a BM built like you stated would **** anything in its path except for the high level wizard.

    BMs i know with just average gear are like one man armies against everything but a good wizard.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    advice to fledgling archers:
    Going sage is like drunken sex, at first she may look good, but when you wake up the next morning; you'll look at her and go WHAT HAVE I DONE.
  • Mycerinus - Harshlands
    Mycerinus - Harshlands Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    BMs are no where near as bad as you claim. with balance, thunder storm, absolute domain and a decent multiweapon dex build; a BM built like you stated would **** anything in its path except for the high level wizard.

    BMs i know with just average gear are like one man armies against everything but a good wizard.

    even charmed barbs? how?

    also i think its kinda fcked up how sins get some weapon mods while archers dont ><
  • TigerLily - Lost City
    TigerLily - Lost City Posts: 1,209 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Lily the wr's you are referring to suck at their class. Warriors aren't even close to gimped endgame - they just require some skill. Clerics can be considered bad 1v1 but they are the support class, they are supposed to stay alive and keep others alive. Clerics were almost rendered obsolete in this game due to heiros. So yeah they aren't the best endgame but for their role nothing can compare :/

    Not saying they're gimped just not as good as some other classes in pvp endgame. And i certainly wouldn't claim that BMs are more gimped than archers, specially archers that cant afford to cash shop thousands USD for refines <.<

    Bms have amazing survivability, almost as high magic def as robe users and chain stuns + haxxed genie skill. But compared them to endgame barbs or wizard that will hit you for 15-30k and a BM will only tickle and are really only god to assist of when they dragons ans stun.

    They just don't hurt very much, don't have skills that can 1 shoot you or bypass your charm, just like archers lol. I guess they do have true emptiness + dragon, which is the closets they will come to high dmg. Maybe most BMs on Lost city suck tho and im biased i dunno lol.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Not saying they're gimped just not as good as some other classes in pvp endgame. And i certainly wouldn't claim that BMs are more gimped than archers, specially archers that cant afford to cash shop thousands USD for refines <.<

    we are not gimped

    Bms have amazing survivability, almost as high magic def as robe users and chain stuns + haxxed genie skill. But compared them to endgame barbs or wizard that will hit you for 15-30k and a BM will only tickle and are really only god to assist of when they dragons ans stun.

    higher m def actually and there are 4 weapon paths for example fists higest dps in game poles range and purge and swords...myriad and atamos

    They just don't hurt very much, don't have skills that can 1 shoot you or bypass your charm, just like archers lol. I guess they do have true emptiness + dragon, which is the closets they will come to high dmg. Maybe most BMs on Lost city suck tho and im biased i dunno lol.

    high spark bolt or mryiad bypass charm quite easily ans fists can shred a charmed barb
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  • DrkLordZ - Sanctuary
    DrkLordZ - Sanctuary Posts: 297 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    high spark bolt or mryiad bypass charm quite easily ans fists can shred a charmed barb

    dude, why do i always see you in the Pvp and archer forum
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  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    dude, why do i always see you in the Pvp and archer forum

    boredom and the need to correct blatent misconceptions about me class such as the "will alter phys on a archer" bit

    and ya i know the 9x bm drk's refering to...."pure" polearm bm with evade sharded armor

    so ya....there are many many many fail bm's....and cash shop does almost nothing for us so its real obviousb:sad
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  • Collapse - Harshlands
    Collapse - Harshlands Posts: 467 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    I was shell shocked once i hit 90 and started to pvp other 9x classes. Its like you obliterate every other class 6x, 7x, 8x (BMs and barbs start to be a team takedown) then at 9x its like .... Wat. I've played WR , WF an EP to 9x and archer by far gets screwed the hell over. Its like by 9x you already have a massive e-peen cuz you have been steady owning everyone then all of a sudden you're a joke. Classes you previously laughed at 1v1 and considered them a 100% easy kill start to laugh at you (Clerics mages and venos). Of course over time you either A) Rage-wtf-quit, my class is gimped QQQQ or B) you adapt. Get smart. Start to use wings of grace, winged shell and air damage reduction to your advantage (if you dont pvp in air, just gtfo). In mass pvp you try to hide, Disguise yourself as to not attract 23589756 melee trying to oneshot you.

    Of course if you went demon, thanks to anniversary packs you can get quickshot pretty easily, plus the other good skills (no miss lightening, winged shell, sharp tooth) so at that time you get a little boost. Quickshot is really what clinches it in TW for us, otherwise you aint killin' any EP veno or MG with a brain.

    Overall tho id have to agree that endgame archers are one of the classes that require alot of controlling skill. You cant just play like pewpew, dead, like you did at 6x-8x This is what makes it fun tho, at least for me b:laugh
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  • DrkLordZ - Sanctuary
    DrkLordZ - Sanctuary Posts: 297 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    boredom and the need to correct blatent misconceptions about me class such as the "will alter phys on a archer" bit

    and ya i know the 9x bm drk's refering to...."pure" polearm bm with evade sharded armor

    so ya....there are many many many fail bm's....and cash shop does almost nothing for us so its real obviousb:sad

    oh yeah, that bm to, i was talking about this physical defense built sword bm. but once jatt oracles to 90, ill own him with my +4 gloom bow.
    I hate how some heavy bms think archers will do awesome damage with our physical attacks when they have alter marrow magical. This one guy Pingpang, he has 6k physical def with marrow magical, and he says ill hit 1k on him with normal attack, lmao
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  • Shadowvzs - Lost City
    Shadowvzs - Lost City Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    I was shell shocked once i hit 90 and started to pvp other 9x classes. Its like you obliterate every other class 6x, 7x, 8x (BMs and barbs start to be a team takedown) then at 9x its like .... Wat. I've played WR , WF an EP to 9x and archer by far gets screwed the hell over. Its like by 9x you already have a massive e-peen cuz you have been steady owning everyone then all of a sudden you're a joke. Classes you previously laughed at 1v1 and considered them a 100% easy kill start to laugh at you (Clerics mages and venos). Of course over time you either A) Rage-wtf-quit, my class is gimped QQQQ or B) you adapt. Get smart. Start to use wings of grace, winged shell and air damage reduction to your advantage (if you dont pvp in air, just gtfo). In mass pvp you try to hide, Disguise yourself as to not attract 23589756 melee trying to oneshot you.

    Of course if you went demon, thanks to anniversary packs you can get quickshot pretty easily, plus the other good skills (no miss lightening, winged shell, sharp tooth) so at that time you get a little boost. Quickshot is really what clinches it in TW for us, otherwise you aint killin' any EP veno or MG with a brain.

    Overall tho id have to agree that endgame archers are one of the classes that require alot of controlling skill. You cant just play like pewpew, dead, like you did at 6x-8x This is what makes it fun tho, at least for me b:laugh

    yea, after 90 a bit harder bit if somebody use his head then still ok.
    1 thing what i dont got, how usefull the sharptooth in raw pk? its long casting (idk but against veno and other mage class i must do fast reaction what kinda hard with slow skills ) and stun have same 10%crit effect.

    (in delta,group pk,huge hp boss its ok, but i dont really see the advantage in 1vs1)
  • Collapse - Harshlands
    Collapse - Harshlands Posts: 467 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    yea, after 90 a bit harder bit if somebody use his head then still ok.
    1 thing what i dont got, how usefull the sharptooth in raw pk? its long casting (idk but against veno and other mage class i must do fast reaction what kinda hard with slow skills ) and stun have same 10%crit effect.

    (in delta,group pk,huge hp boss its ok, but i dont really see the advantage in 1vs1)

    Very useful. Ecspecially after 95 when every1 and their mom is pimped in pack gear, with high hp. Long casting? never had a problem with it. Always seemed to cast fast to me.
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  • MrKillAlot - Lost City
    MrKillAlot - Lost City Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    the devs gave archers the typical untimate penalty for being a superb class early game. Archers_Soul (me) did his best from lvl 30 but as soon as i hitted 80 i wasnt able to pk nearly as easy as before, most of the time i avoided barbs and vit based BMs and went for other archers and arcane wearers. barbs were hitting me as much as i hitted them even with my evasion and same went for BMs. i really dont understand why barbs and BMs get more of a benifit from dex than an archer does. that benefit than a BM and barb gets would really help an archer out towrds end game because we clearly dont do enough dmg. its funny to see archers like Trancend and Shinzoko destroying others the way they do, being that they are apart of the weakest end game class. ontop of that we get the worst 79 skills in the game. they are decent but one of the 2 of em isnt as good as the genie skill thats almost just like it and the other one is just sad... i mean i do get missed on alot but in this game, wizards, venos and clerics cant miss and i've even been hit by bms and barbs while on it. isnt it amazing when you get a 1000% evasion boost and they only miss on you once out of the whole time the buff is activated? we got a useless 59 skill... wtf is stormrage eagelon? its a useless metal skill, ide much rather use barrage of arrows on a heavy armor user than to waste 2 sparks using that skill on them.
    I made an assassin called MrKillAlot yo.
    I like to kill alot yo.
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    yea, after 90 a bit harder bit if somebody use his head then still ok.
    1 thing what i dont got, how usefull the sharptooth in raw pk? its long casting (idk but against veno and other mage class i must do fast reaction what kinda hard with slow skills ) and stun have same 10%crit effect.

    (in delta,group pk,huge hp boss its ok, but i dont really see the advantage in 1vs1)

    Less HP.


    Less HP before charm ticks.



    Less HP after charm ticks.


    Less HP to take out in 10 seconds.





    On 5000 HP, maxed sharptooth can take out 800 HP.
  • Wiz_Oz - Lost City
    Wiz_Oz - Lost City Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    i only have one thing to say

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUJqX7fAbPk

    i wil let the vid speaks for itself...
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    i only have one thing to say

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUJqX7fAbPk

    i wil let the vid speaks for itself...

    Let's not. A movie is a terrible way of proving a point, it can be censored how ever you want. Most moviemakers show only the highlights of pvp, Transcend at least shows some of his deaths but he isn't gonna show him attacking a person normally and them getting away or dropping from the air because that isn't fun to watch. That video shows little about how archers fair in pvp, many of it is lower levels and others assisting him. It's a good video but even I can 1 shot robes with under 4k hp continuously. Notice bigtime and LordKazahana **** him? They have comparably similar gear. The kill on Kniraven is good and shows archers can still compete.. until you see kniraven's gear. The 2v1 against the worst guild in the server: Werefox dies to hell spark with no heiro, they have under 3.7k hp.. notice hell spark only doing 2k and 1.7k.. the warrior is a dual blade warrior, I can almost stop there but the warrior didn't even attempt to stun. They just flew up and ulti'd they didn't even try to get them to 50% hp and bypass their charm.

    Next part, mass pvp. This is the enviroment archers are best at. Best might not be the proper word so I'll use closest to being average. In mass pvp we are good because we can deal our moderate damage and kill ppl due to the help of others, if more than 1 person targets us we can drop down or wings of grace/pharm and be left alone again. This way as long as we aren't consistently focused we can actually pvp.

    A lot of you don't know what gear people have due to being on different servers, look at some of the kills.. they aren't impressive when 2.2k gets them to 20% hp.

    Nothing against transcend at all, I'm appreciative of the fact he can still make use of this class and I think he is one of the best pvp archers on the server but with the same gear and same skill and same pots any class can do better..

    Also transcend can you do me a favor by posting your pwcalc in the youtube information section, people might get false hope for archers until they realize you have a +10 cv bow, event gear with moderate refines, cv ring and almost every hell skill. This just isn't obtainable to an average archer.
  • Shadowvzs - Lost City
    Shadowvzs - Lost City Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Very useful. Ecspecially after 95 when every1 and their mom is pimped in pack gear, with high hp. Long casting? never had a problem with it. Always seemed to cast fast to me.

    idk but for me stun is faster.
    Less HP.


    Less HP before charm ticks.



    Less HP after charm ticks.


    Less HP to take out in 10 seconds.





    On 5000 HP, maxed sharptooth can take out 800 HP.
    u hit more with 1 normal hit on any class and this few hp dont save ur life when u can crit enough high in pvp (and against barb u dont get more chance anyway without refined eq and a ton of luck for only crits in row when they will get 20k+ hp)

    u can take out cleric who got 6k hp really without sharp because during sharp u hit minimum 2x with normal shot and that deal more dmg.

    sry but in 1vs1 its kinda time waste (if target dont ahve uber refined eq then this dont really worth)
  • Transcend - Lost City
    Transcend - Lost City Posts: 448 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Let's not. A movie is a terrible way of proving a point, it can be censored how ever you want. Most moviemakers show only the highlights of pvp, Transcend at least shows some of his deaths but he isn't gonna show him attacking a person normally and them getting away or dropping from the air because that isn't fun to watch. That video shows little about how archers fair in pvp, many of it is lower levels and others assisting him. It's a good video but even I can 1 shot robes with under 4k hp continuously. Notice bigtime and LordKazahana **** him? They have comparably similar gear. The kill on Kniraven is good and shows archers can still compete.. until you see kniraven's gear. The 2v1 against the worst guild in the server: Werefox dies to hell spark with no heiro, they have under 3.7k hp.. notice hell spark only doing 2k and 1.7k.. the warrior is a dual blade warrior, I can almost stop there but the warrior didn't even attempt to stun. They just flew up and ulti'd they didn't even try to get them to 50% hp and bypass their charm.

    Next part, mass pvp. This is the enviroment archers are best at. Best might not be the proper word so I'll use closest to being average. In mass pvp we are good because we can deal our moderate damage and kill ppl due to the help of others, if more than 1 person targets us we can drop down or wings of grace/pharm and be left alone again. This way as long as we aren't consistently focused we can actually pvp.

    A lot of you don't know what gear people have due to being on different servers, look at some of the kills.. they aren't impressive when 2.2k gets them to 20% hp.

    Nothing against transcend at all, I'm appreciative of the fact he can still make use of this class and I think he is one of the best pvp archers on the server but with the same gear and same skill and same pots any class can do better..

    Also transcend can you do me a favor by posting your pwcalc in the youtube information section, people might get false hope for archers until they realize you have a +10 cv bow, event gear with moderate refines, cv ring and almost every hell skill. This just isn't obtainable to an average archer.

    Bigtime's solo kill on me was the only one in the past month, and I put it in the video because he perfectly chained his stuns as I made the mistake of not holy pathing away (even then I don't know if I would've survived). After that, though, I've consistently won against him in both group and solo pvp, and you'll notice that I was able to counter his two demon sparked attacks while still stunned @ swamps with a perfectly timed domain, drop, and stun/qs from afar. Even if no one was around to kill him, I'm sure I would've killed him.

    He rarely uses phys/mag marrow against me, but any BM who does that against an end game (EG) demon archer is meeting certain death, even with a +5 cv. The thing is, I've pvp'ed against bigtime so much that I can anticipate most of his next moves and adapt accordingly.

    LordK's kill was a good one, he switched between axes and fists, and stunlocked me well. I failed to counter with absolute domain, which was barely available a few hits before I died, and instead tried to wing of grace for immunity. This was the first time I 1v1'ed him (and haven't since), didn't know his style or the fact that he uses fists AND GX axes.. I was just stunned A LOT b:surrender

    By just looking at pure stats in a standing fight, we lose, but that's what makes us a fun and challenging class to play. We are forced to kite by nature and if we can't even learn to do that, of course we are going to die to the +10/12 EG weaps. We're not meant to take damage, but we (demons) are meant to dish it out quick.

    Of all the archers that regularly play, very few, if any, have no additional demon skills after the basic three. You only really need quickshot and the metal skills anyway, which go for 5-10mil each. I don't know anyone who has paid 30m for quickshot, as I'm sure they would rather try for the gamble and sell off the duplicate skills they get to try again (I was lucky and got it on my first try, lol).

    I believe that as long as we kite effectively, chain the right skills, and counter via genie skills and/or apoth pots, we're good. Without those, we're gimped. Genies add a huge survival boost if you spec it with the right stats and skills, as do apothecary pots (<3 immunity). You'll notice that my genie skills and apoth pots mostly defensive in nature, and this is to compensate for what we lack in inherited skills and light armor, and it's worked well in helping me survive those close range onslaughts and mage ultis.

    We would need an objective definition to be able to measure what the "average" archer is, which includes level, armors, refines, skills, frequently used pots, and genie skill slots. I don't think we're on the same page, as at level 100, I personally consider +5 to be slightly below average. I see most active, EG PVP archers geared with HH99/Event +6/7 at a minimum. Everyone has cv bows, +5 being the lowest, and have never seen a 2nd/3rd fairy archer with +3 or 4 HH90 armors.

    Average "players" wouldn't be able to make it to 90, let alone 95+.


    Here's my pwcalcs btw, also posted on the information section of the video:
    Equipment from 0:00 - 4:50:
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=c62627940c9a61f2

    Equipment used from 4:51 - 10:00:
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=fd5e06c041328b70
    youtube.com/transcendpw

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