Resistance vs HP shards

Kawakami - Dreamweaver
Kawakami - Dreamweaver Posts: 276 Arc User
edited November 2009 in General Discussion
So, let's say I get like 100 phys def from shards, or I could choose 100hp from shards. If I get hit by anything physical, what would be eventually more efficient HP wise ?
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Post edited by Kawakami - Dreamweaver on
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  • MagicHamsta - Lost City
    MagicHamsta - Lost City Posts: 10,466 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    HP shards.
    P def gets teh diminishing returns.
    (depends on how much p def you starting off with me suppose lols. if you had 0 p def then definitely get p def shards.)


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  • ToyKitteh - Heavens Tear
    ToyKitteh - Heavens Tear Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    depends on class. Go to ecatomb.net and play around with your stats on the stat generator to see which is more effective, pdef or hp.
  • MagicHamsta - Lost City
    MagicHamsta - Lost City Posts: 10,466 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    b:surrender
    me can see he's a cleric.
    b:chuckle
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  • Plicid - Heavens Tear
    Plicid - Heavens Tear Posts: 257 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    also depends how much you will refine your gear. too much Pdef without HP dont do too much, but opposite is also true. but generally before your TT90 it isnt worth it to refine your gear enough to make Pdef shards worth it(unless perhaps you are a heavey vit build, but then even..) as a general rule you cant go wrog with HP. but on your TT90 if you planning on getting it +4 or better you might want to consider Pdef shards if arcane.
  • XylolyX - Heavens Tear
    XylolyX - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    IMO: HP is much greater than PDef.
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  • LloydAsplund - Sanctuary
    LloydAsplund - Sanctuary Posts: 3,899 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Mix of phy.def and hp shards for full magic arcanes. Pure hp shards with crappy phy. def wont save you much from archers/phy. aoe.
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  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    <-- Pure mag veno w/ Garnets. 150% pdef increase in fox form providing balanced pdef with mdef and very efficient MP / HP management.
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  • Hisuna - Sanctuary
    Hisuna - Sanctuary Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    tweakz wrote: »
    <-- Pure mag veno w/ Garnets. 150% pdef increase in fox form providing balanced pdef with mdef and very efficient MP / HP management.

    That's only true if they have sage fox form, otherwise it's 120%. It's still an amazing increase, but if you're a mage veno, switching in and out of fox form solely to deal with damage can become prohibitive.
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  • _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary
    _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,294 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Personally I'd always go HP. I find it better to use ornaments to balance out defensive weaknesses.
  • Deceptistar - Sanctuary
    Deceptistar - Sanctuary Posts: 10,454 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    really REALLY depends... thers some, for clerics, out there with 9-10k HP that are squishy as hell. Sometimes seeing those clerics will make u rethink.
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  • Ponza - Lost City
    Ponza - Lost City Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    If you are a mage, go 75% p. def 25% hp...fully buffed mages that sharded p. def literally become fortresses compared to hp - sharded players.

    Remember that the more hp you have, the less it matters also. Adding 1 hp to 10000 hp is insignificant, while adding 1 hp to 10 hp increases survivabilty 10%.

    Hp shards can get at most a 30% bonus from barb buffs, while p. def can get potentially 300% bonus.

    So my advice would be...get just enough hp to be able to survive ultimates like tempest and ice dragon, then shard p. def. If you find you don't have enough hp, you can always fix it by putting 20-30 points in vit...you end up better off imo.

    As a final bonus, you save a TON on charm costs if you go p. def, and it is more effective when you are being healed by a cleric as well.
  • Kawakami - Dreamweaver
    Kawakami - Dreamweaver Posts: 276 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Thanks for the input ! I guess I will use a mix of phys shards and hp shards depending on my current situation.
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  • VidaLove - Heavens Tear
    VidaLove - Heavens Tear Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    In my case HP is better than Psy Def., minus ticks in my HP charm, and save me with magic and psy attacks. This is my opinion b:cute
  • DeathBanana - Heavens Tear
    DeathBanana - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,674 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Also, don't forget that pdef can be more economical, in terms of charm ticks and cleric heals/your pots.
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  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Ponza - Lost City wrote: »
    If you are a mage, go 75% p. def 25% hp...fully buffed mages that sharded p. def literally become fortresses compared to hp - sharded players.

    Remember that the more hp you have, the less it matters also. Adding 1 hp to 10000 hp is insignificant, while adding 1 hp to 10 hp increases survivabilty 10%.

    Hp shards can get at most a 30% bonus from barb buffs, while p. def can get potentially 300% bonus.

    So my advice would be...get just enough hp to be able to survive ultimates like tempest and ice dragon, then shard p. def. If you find you don't have enough hp, you can always fix it by putting 20-30 points in vit...you end up better off imo.

    As a final bonus, you save a TON on charm costs if you go p. def, and it is more effective when you are being healed by a cleric as well.

    I'm not going to get into the whole hp vs def debate because the amount and the content in question are important considerations, as is class. However, your logic here is faulty for any class.

    Survival is binary, there are no shades of gray to any given hit, the only gray area is when it comes to a mobs attack (for most classes just their attack on ae's) and having the hp to survive the entire range of possible damage amounts. Either you can survive a hit or you can't survive it. Having 10 hp and adding 1 adds no additional survivability when you're being hit for 100. Yet having 100 hp and adding 1 hp adds a lot of survivability.
  • MagicHamsta - Lost City
    MagicHamsta - Lost City Posts: 10,466 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I'm not going to get into the whole hp vs def debate because the amount and the content in question are important considerations, as is class. However, your logic here is faulty for any class.

    Survival is binary, there are no shades of gray to any given hit, the only gray area is when it comes to a mobs attack (for most classes just their attack on ae's) and having the hp to survive the entire range of possible damage amounts. Either you can survive a hit or you can't survive it. Having 10 hp and adding 1 adds no additional survivability when you're being hit for 100. Yet having 100 hp and adding 1 hp adds a lot of survivability.

    yays~
    agreed. if a mob hits you for 15 damage and you have 10 but add 1 more...your still going to die in 1 hit. b:chuckle
    but a combination of pdef & hp is the best in order to survive so what you use depends mainly on your build and choice of gear first. (if your a heavy armor user then putting p def shards is kinda dumb)

    Sure wizards get a nice p def modifier with stone barrier but you also get diminishing returns on p def. so over sharding p def = no no.
    b:shocked
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  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »
    Sure wizards get a nice p def modifier with stone barrier but you also get diminishing returns on p def. so over sharding p def = no no.
    If you untangle the pdef equation, there is no diminishing returns. If +100 pdef lets you survive one extra hit at 500 pdef, +100 pdef will let you survive one extra hit at 10k pdef. Just like if +100 hp lets you survive one extra hit at 500 hp, +100 hp will let you survive one extra hit at 10k hp.

    What trips people up is that there is diminishing returns in damage reduction. But the amount of damage you take isn't proportional to DR, it's proportional to 1 - DR. Once you apply that, the diminishing returns disappears. That is, if you go from 0% DR to 50% DR, you double your survivability for a 50% increase in DR. But if you go from 50% DR to 75% DR, you double your survivability for a 25% increase in DR. Smaller increase in DR, but the same increase in survivability.
  • Shintera - Sanctuary
    Shintera - Sanctuary Posts: 132 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    i also run a celric (LA though). try to get ur pdef to give or take 2-3k (after buffed and that's not to much to ask) then rest into hp sharding. 2k pdef is around 40% dmg reduction 3k is 50% after that it starts slowing down dramaticly so aim for 3k buffed and you should be fine with that. hp shard and refine for the rest (probably 1/2 hp 1/2 pdef and try to get pdef mods on ur gear it'll help and if ur arcane then wait to hit 3k pdef till around 70ish) and for a caster a 50% reduction to phys is pretty good any more is overkill on the amount of shard it would take to raise it when hp is more important past that point.

    edit: lol just realized ur 77 so get ur pdef to about 2-3k cause the extra reuction is extremely helpful but withought hp it's not as usefull so try to come near that number and still get some hp sharding thrown in.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Ponza - Lost City wrote: »
    If you are a mage, go 75% p. def 25% hp...fully buffed mages that sharded p. def literally become fortresses compared to hp - sharded players.

    This advice doesn't take into account what shards are being used, refines are being used, and what alternate equips may be used.
    Ponza - Lost City wrote: »
    Remember that the more hp you have, the less it matters also. Adding 1 hp to 10000 hp is insignificant, while adding 1 hp to 10 hp increases survivabilty 10%.

    Not that simple. At higher levels: you're not getting hit with 9-10 dmg. Etherocelot Guards for example hit matk at: 1040 - 1272. 232 points of variance. If you can just barely survive the minimum of 1040, then each HP is going to increase 1/232 not 1/your current hp.
    Ponza - Lost City wrote: »
    So my advice would be...get just enough hp to be able to survive ultimates like tempest and ice dragon, then shard p. def. If you find you don't have enough hp, you can always fix it by putting 20-30 points in vit...you end up better off imo.

    Depends on the class. I wouldn't waste any stat points on vit for a veno or wiz.
    Shintera - Sanctuary wrote: »
    i also run a celric (LA though). try to get ur pdef to give or take 2-3k (after buffed and that's not to much to ask) then rest into hp sharding. 2k pdef is around 40% dmg reduction 3k is 50% after that it starts slowing down dramaticly so aim for 3k buffed and you should be fine with that. hp shard and refine for the rest (probably 1/2 hp 1/2 pdef and try to get pdef mods on ur gear it'll help and if ur arcane then wait to hit 3k pdef till around 70ish) and for a caster a 50% reduction to phys is pretty good any more is overkill on the amount of shard it would take to raise it when hp is more important past that point.

    edit: lol just realized ur 77 so get ur pdef to about 2-3k cause the extra reuction is extremely helpful but withought hp it's not as usefull so try to come near that number and still get some hp sharding thrown in.

    Clerics don't benefit much from the Dex required to be LA. They sacrifice MP, Matk, and Mdef. They then favor significantly more expensive Citrines over Garnets. Clerics also have skills that benefit from equipment pdefs (more benefit from garnets). Are the sacrifices worth it? -Please say yes because I'd love to keep the Garnets cheap!
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  • Ahira - Lost City
    Ahira - Lost City Posts: 791 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    I found there to be a trend from HP shards at lower levels -> phys shards when you get to ~ 90. At 99+ i think going back towards HP shards is best. o_o
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  • MagicHamsta - Lost City
    MagicHamsta - Lost City Posts: 10,466 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    If you untangle the pdef equation, there is no diminishing returns. If +100 pdef lets you survive one extra hit at 500 pdef, +100 pdef will let you survive one extra hit at 10k pdef. Just like if +100 hp lets you survive one extra hit at 500 hp, +100 hp will let you survive one extra hit at 10k hp.

    What trips people up is that there is diminishing returns in damage reduction. But the amount of damage you take isn't proportional to DR, it's proportional to 1 - DR. Once you apply that, the diminishing returns disappears. That is, if you go from 0% DR to 50% DR, you double your survivability for a 50% increase in DR. But if you go from 50% DR to 75% DR, you double your survivability for a 25% increase in DR. Smaller increase in DR, but the same increase in survivability.

    can me has pdef equation nows? like the actual formula?
    also um why me get the feeling you haven't actually done any calculations of this yourself? o.o'
    and yea.... the evidence supporting me views be right there...in front of your eyes.
    (>.<)'
    if you go from 0-1000 p def then you get more % reduction then if you were to go from 4000-5000 p def. b:surrender
    and me really hope that isn't your main. b:surrender
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  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »
    can me has pdef equation nows? like the actual formula?

    damage reduction = def / (def + 40*level)
    also um why me get the feeling you haven't actually done any calculations of this yourself? o.o'
    and yea.... the evidence supporting me views be right there...in front of your eyes.
    if you go from 0-1000 p def then you get more % reduction then if you were to go from 4000-5000 p def.
    I've done the calculations. You can see an example in this link:.
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=1536391#post1536391

    As it happens, the numbers I used cover exactly the scenario you outline. If you have 2000 hp and the mob does 1000 raw damage, going from 0 to 1000 pdef lets you go from surviving 2 hits to 3 hits. i.e you survive one extra hit.

    If you go from 4000 to 5000 pdef, you go from surviving 6 hits to 7 hits. i.e. you survive one extra hit. Just like the 0 to 1000 pdef case.

    You may also want to read through this thread, although the math gets rather hairy (IIRC, it turns out figuring which shard is better requires solving a two-variable partial differential).

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=342691
  • AlbireoTwo - Lost City
    AlbireoTwo - Lost City Posts: 2,056 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    So much maths....

    I have a better idea. Wear the one that looks cooler. End of discussion.
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  • Snoozer - Lost City
    Snoozer - Lost City Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    For those of you into this sort of thing, I've created a spreadsheet that allows you to compare 2 different builds with varying amounts of pdef/hp. I used the pdef formula that Solandri provided. It also includes the option to toggle cleric pdef, BM pdef, and barb hp buffs on and off :)

    I'm not going to go into detail on how it works; I'm sure you smart cookies can figure it out.

    http://www.filedropper.com/pdefcalc
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Snoozer - Lost City wrote: »
    For those of you into this sort of thing, I've created a spreadsheet that allows you to compare 2 different builds with varying amounts of pdef/hp.
    The comparison is further complicated by the fact that:

    (1) A flawless garnet gives +41 to pdef, but a flawless citrine gives +40 hp. So if your sharding 3-socket armor, your choice isn't +120 hp vs. +120 pdef, it's +120 hp vs. +123 pdef, a 2.5% difference. The difference is more pronounced with higher level stones.

    (2) Garnets tend to be cheaper than citrines. So while (1) compares equivalent stones, a "best bang for the buck (or coin)" comparison will yield a different answer.
  • _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary
    _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,294 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    If you untangle the pdef equation, there is no diminishing returns. If +100 pdef lets you survive one extra hit at 500 pdef, +100 pdef will let you survive one extra hit at 10k pdef. Just like if +100 hp lets you survive one extra hit at 500 hp, +100 hp will let you survive one extra hit at 10k hp.

    If I have 10000 phys, and add 100, it might not even add any extra resistance. Even if, for arguments sake it adds 1% reduction.... it might allow me to survive that extra hit, yes....

    ...Then the enemy fires a spell at me...

    If your resistances are high enough already, HP offers better protection because it's an all-round survival improvement. Magic and Phys defense shards are a one sided defense useful only to compensate for a severe lacking in either area.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    If your resistances are high enough already, HP offers better protection because it's an all-round survival improvement. Magic and Phys defense shards are a one sided defense useful only to compensate for a severe lacking in either area.

    People sacrifice Magic for HP. High Mag gets you high mdef. It also gets you better MP management. When you have high mag, you want to balance it with pdef. You save not only on sharding, but MP and mAtk as well. HP can come from refines and equips.
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  • WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary
    WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary Posts: 1,686 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    This debate has been done a lot of times so I'd recommend some forum searching.

    My only advice, however, is to be aware that there is a HUGE amount of misinformation and faulty reasoning on this whole debate. For example, the "diminishing returns" myth regarding resistances is pretty much an accepted truth, even though it's mathematically false.
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  • Deceptistar - Sanctuary
    Deceptistar - Sanctuary Posts: 10,454 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    tweakz wrote: »
    People sacrifice Magic for HP. High Mag gets you high mdef. It also gets you better MP management. When you have high mag, you want to balance it with pdef. You save not only on sharding, but MP and mAtk as well. HP can come from refines and equips.
    what they said.
    Personally i like to get my hp from 1/3 of shards on gear and rest from refines. This equals out to about 12k mdef, 9k pdef, and 6k HP. And like i said i know some clerics and venos out there that stack on hp hp hp but they die in like 3 hits from a melee cause their pdef stays at 2-3k. They only seem to survive good vs wizards.

    I hear alot of melees talking about diminishing returns but remember, the OP is a cleric. we usually dont even reach 10k pdef.
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  • _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary
    _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,294 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    tweakz wrote: »
    People sacrifice Magic for HP. High Mag gets you high mdef. It also gets you better MP management. When you have high mag, you want to balance it with pdef. You save not only on sharding, but MP and mAtk as well. HP can come from refines and equips.

    True I admit. It's all about balancing it really.

    In my case, I have high defense from HA + BM skills. I have a decent magic resistance from refined magic res ornaments and my cape. So I use HP shards. (Plus I admittedly just like having high HP :P)

    At 90, if I choose to heavily refine my TT90 I might choose to drop a few HP shards and add a few magic res. You really need to look at your own character and build and use your own judgement.

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