Resistance vs HP shards

Solandri - Heavens Tear

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

If I have 10000 phys, and add 100, it might not even add any extra resistance. Even if, for arguments sake it adds 1% reduction.... it might allow me to survive that extra hit, yes....

The same holds for hp. If you have 10k hp, and you add 100, it offers the same incremental increase in survivability (against physical damage) as adding 100 to 10k pdef. Both work the same - there is no diminishing returns. So you shouldn't use diminishing returns as an argument against def shards. That's all I'm saying.

...Then the enemy fires a spell at me...

If your resistances are high enough already, HP offers better protection because it's an all-round survival improvement. Magic and Phys defense shards are a one sided defense useful only to compensate for a severe lacking in either area.

Agreed. For most people hp shards are better, not just because they help against all damage types, but because they tend to be cheaper (you can also get them via refines and vit). I'm not saying def shards are better. Only that they are better than most people think they are because of the misconception about diminishing returns.

The math is just there for the folks who want to figure out precisely which is better for their character. Mathematically, you'll achieve maximum survivability with a balance of hp and def. The problem is the game mechanics and pricing skew the equivalent units of the two, so just aiming for 5k hp, 5k mdef, 5k pdef doesn't get you the optimal solution.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary

I'm a LA veno and I went mostly sharded with garnets. I have 4 average garnets in my TT70 top, 2 immac garnets in my shinguards, 2 average garnets in my sleeves, and an hp shard in my boots. I also use saki light giving me +216 phys def. So far I've managed to get up to 7.3k physical defense fully buffed in fox form. (5k unbuffed) The garnets shards really save my butt. If I ever draw argo from my pet, like maybe I critted too high or w/e (and yes, I crit alot) If it's a mellee mob coming to me, I just get in foxform and tank it. Most that a mellee mob hits on me is probably 200, maybe 250. Now before this, I was a pure mag veno, sharded with hp. and if i ever drew argo then i was in big trouble. mobs my lvl then hit me for 400-500. and even with my hp, i still died in about 3 hits.

Alexeno - Sanctuary

godstones > hp AND pdef shards combined b:chuckle



(couldn't help myself)

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Alexeno - Sanctuary wrote: »

godstones > hp AND pdef shards combined b:chuckle



(couldn't help myself)

???b:surrender

kidneystones > godstones

Alexeno - Sanctuary

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

???b:surrender

kidneystones > godstones

b:surprised

you don't know about godstones?

here's a list:

1) -6%channeling when socketed in weapon (max -12%chan)
2) +2%critrate when socketed in weapon (max +4%crit)
3) +15 Strength when socketed in weapon (max +30 str)
4) +15 Dexterity when socketed in weapon (max +30 dex)
5) +15 Magic when socketed in weapon (max +30 mag)

all 5 godstone types add +20 Vitality when socketed in armor
(max +80 vit per piece of armor, total max +480 vit)

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Alexeno - Sanctuary wrote: »

b:surprised

you don't know about godstones?

here's a list:

1) -6%channeling when socketed in weapon (max -12%chan)
2) +2%critrate when socketed in weapon (max +4%crit)
3) +15 Strength when socketed in weapon (max +30 str)
4) +15 Dexterity when socketed in weapon (max +30 dex)
5) +15 Magic when socketed in weapon (max +30 mag)

all 5 godstone types add +20 Vitality when socketed in armor
(max +80 vit per piece of armor, total max +480 vit)

i keep track only of things actually implemented in the international version ;o

Alexeno - Sanctuary

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

i keep track only of things actually implemented in the international version ;o

they're in the annipacks O_o;

Valirah - Sanctuary

One other point in favor of increased def vs. HP is healing efficiency. High def characters are easier to keep healed than high HP ones, requiring less or weaker heals to get the same job done.

Two characters, each with 5k HP, one increases survivability by 20% using def, the other using HP. It will take the same number of attacks to tick each's charm, only difference is that the HP guy will drain 3k off the charm per tick while the def guy only 2.5k. With charm prices what they are these days, that's a fairly significant savings.

Alexeno - Sanctuary

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

One other point in favor of increased def vs. HP is healing efficiency. High def characters are easier to keep healed than high HP ones, requiring less or weaker heals to get the same job done.

Two characters, each with 5k HP, one increases survivability by 20% using def, the other using HP. It will take the same number of attacks to tick each's charm, only difference is that the HP guy will drain 3k off the charm per tick while the def guy only 2.5k. With charm prices what they are these days, that's a fairly significant savings.

any player who does this is fail. same principle applies to nub venos who use low-hp pets saying "but my pet heal heals more of the hp bar per heal with this pet"... when in reality, higher hp will ALWAYS be better than anything else, period

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Alexeno - Sanctuary wrote: »

any player who does this is fail. same principle applies to nub venos who use low-hp pets saying "but my pet heal heals more of the hp bar per heal with this pet"... when in reality, higher hp will ALWAYS be better than anything else, period

>>; pushing your ideas and sayings its the one and only best way. Its called narrow mindedness.

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

One other point in favor of increased def vs. HP is healing efficiency. High def characters are easier to keep healed than high HP ones, requiring less or weaker heals to get the same job done.

Two characters, each with 5k HP, one increases survivability by 20% using def, the other using HP. It will take the same number of attacks to tick each's charm, only difference is that the HP guy will drain 3k off the charm per tick while the def guy only 2.5k. With charm prices what they are these days, that's a fairly significant savings.

not sure of charm saving but i do support the idea. I know for one that most arcane who shard only hp are squishy as ****

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Alexeno - Sanctuary wrote: »

they're in the annipacks O_o;

Only Savant stones (-3% chan weap / 10 vit armor) and Primeval stones (1% crit weap / 10 vit armor) are in the packs.

They seem half as effective as the stones you described.

Alexeno - Sanctuary wrote: »

any player who does this is fail. same principle applies to nub venos who use low-hp pets saying "but my pet heal heals more of the hp bar per heal with this pet"... when in reality, higher hp will ALWAYS be better than anything else, period

You're just silly. The tradeoff is not between having more HP and not having it. The tradeoff is between having added resistance versus added HP (read the title of the topic). Someone with 0 resist and 30k hp will be harder to keep healed than someone with 10k resist and 20k HP.

kenlee

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

what they said.
Personally i like to get my hp from 1/3 of shards on gear and rest from refines. This equals out to about 12k mdef, 9k pdef, and 6k HP. And like i said i know some clerics and venos out there that stack on hp hp hp but they die in like 3 hits from a melee cause their pdef stays at 2-3k. They only seem to survive good vs wizards.

I hear alot of melees talking about diminishing returns but remember, the OP is a cleric. we usually dont even reach 10k pdef.

this is very true and most players only count HP as a 'tanking' factor. i see players with 2-3 times my HP dying a lot faster than me. having around 7-9k HP and less than 1k pdef is the worst thing possible, my 1st priority is p.def shards then you can shard your cape/helm with hp... add there decent refines and you are good to go

Alexeno - Sanctuary

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

>>; pushing your ideas and sayings its the one and only best way. Its called narrow mindedness.

i'm not "pushing my ideas" onto anyone, i simply stated my opinion on what was said
(albeit in a very brash/blatant way)

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Only Savant stones (-3% chan weap / 10 vit armor) and Primeval stones (1% crit weap / 10 vit armor) are in the packs.

They seem half as effective as the stones you described.

ah i see.... too bad :S

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

You're just silly. The tradeoff is not between having more HP and not having it. The tradeoff is between having added resistance versus added HP (read the title of the topic). Someone with 0 resist and 30k hp will be harder to keep healed than someone with 10k resist and 20k HP.

bear in mind, that the best socketable gems/stones add vit, not def. so in all honesty, the argument is technically moot in the grand scheme of things.

however, i will say this: i'd rather party with people who know their class, build, and how to effectively gear up for said class and build

hp > def, especially for squishies (since def will not provide reasonable returns)



correction- if soloing or partying without a cleric, then yes, def > hp. because it reduces the downtime more than having craptons of hp would (unless you have access to +vit stones, in which case +vit > all)

truekossy

Alexeno - Sanctuary wrote: »

bear in mind, that the best socketable gems/stones add vit, not def. so in all honesty, the argument is technically moot in the grand scheme of things.

however, i will say this: i'd rather party with people who know their class, build, and how to effectively gear up for said class and build

hp > def, especially for squishies (since def will not provide reasonable returns)



correction- if soloing or partying without a cleric, then yes, def > hp. because it reduces the downtime more than having craptons of hp would (unless you have access to +vit stones, in which case +vit > all)

HP > Def for people in robes and def doesn't provide reasonable returns?
Seriously?


... No. Just... no. There's a reason the general consensus is that arcane users should shard mostly pdef. Also, you seem to forget that you get a great deal of HP from refines and equip bonuses.

Let's do a quick comparison, shall we?

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=0bd6797e371f2405
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=4a0d2f37977255f2

Two wizzies. Same stats/equips but different sharding. The top one went garnet, bottom one went citrines. Only cleric buffs and self-buffs are included to assume they're in a squad with just a cleric for whatever reason.

Now... say they're fighting some guy and that opponent attacks them for what would normally be... say... 6500 without damage reduction applied (which would 1-shot them both).

First wiz gets hit for 2145 damage and has 2302 HP left. The attack that would have normally been a 1-shot now does less than half their HP and they can use a pot, healing skill (be it from a genie or themselves), or get healed by the cleric to preserve their charm (3-shot without a charm factored in).

Second wiz gets hit for 2860 damage and has 2595 HP left. Charm ticks so no opportunity for heals (2-shot without charm factored in).


Favors the HP based wiz since they have more HP left after the attack (even if it means more healspam needed to try and keep up with damage and one tiny mistake means instant death), you say? Uh-huh... and what do you think happens if... say... the attack was a crit?

13k damage without reduction applied.

On the first wiz, that translates to 4290 damage.Survives with 157 HP to spare, charm ticks, they get to see another attack.

On the second wiz, that's 5720 damage. That makes the second wiz a 1-shot. Pretty hard for charm or clerics to help you when you die in one attack.

Signako - Heavens Tear

Alexeno - Sanctuary wrote: »

any player who does this is fail. same principle applies to nub venos who use low-hp pets saying "but my pet heal heals more of the hp bar per heal with this pet"... when in reality, higher hp will ALWAYS be better than anything else, period

please provide proof that Hp is better than def.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpWpdcR63ms for laughs

_River - Heavens Tear

Alexeno - Sanctuary wrote: »

any player who does this is fail. same principle applies to nub venos who use low-hp pets saying "but my pet heal heals more of the hp bar per heal with this pet"... when in reality, higher hp will ALWAYS be better than anything else, period

Oo that's just silly to say. Given that those people who have gone all citrines in their gear (who are squishy) cannot take a decent hit. I.E. clerics/venos/wizzies with all citrines and no garnets and going against a phys mob. Just because you have higher hp doesn't mean you are more resistant to physical damage.... Its not hp that strengthens phys def, its phys def and a slight percentage on vitality. So if you're gonna aim for straight hp, go for the vit stones not citrines... personally I do a combination of citrines, garnets, and some mdef shards. Yes you will ask me why.

I wear light armor full time. Only arcane armor piece I have is my wristguards for teh 6% channeling. So using the pdef shards, I can get more phys def in venomancer form, mdef shards because I don't use arcane armor completely, and citrines to help boost the hp a little. All around rounding out my character as for the path I've chosen. It ups survivability so that I can take a hit, and still make sure I'm alive enough to get away as the situation may arise.

But like most people have said, it depends on class and preference. Not everyone thinks the same. And if you weren't forcing your beliefs on people you'd might want to consider wording your opinion differently for the next time ^^;;

_River - Heavens Tear

Alexeno - Sanctuary wrote: »

i


bear in mind, that the best socketable gems/stones add vit, not def.

This is an incorrect statement. If you read the little pop-up type thing when you hover over the word Vit in your character screen it will say that Vit increases mdef and pdef. Its a small multiplier but you still do get def of both kinds from it. To quote exactly:

Vitality
Increases your HP and HP recovery rate, Physical and Magic Defense.

tweakz

Alexeno - Sanctuary wrote: »

hp > def, especially for squishies (since def will not provide reasonable returns)



correction- if soloing or partying without a cleric, then yes, def > hp. because it reduces the downtime more than having craptons of hp would (unless you have access to +vit stones, in which case +vit > all)

I thought I already pointed out that all 3 squishies: Cleric / Veno / Wiz have skills that multiply on pdef. They also all benefit greatly from high mag. So even if HP > Def, the skills would change that.

Ponza - Lost City

Ok i will generally just state and summarize the info i've read here...and from my own experiences as a lvl 93 mage with 75% p.def shards.

If your sole #1 goal is to survive as long as possible against physical damage, physical shards are better than hp shards. With full cleric and BM buffs, phy. def is a no-brainer in terms of survival against physical damage. When you have 60% phy. def, yes, it takes a lot of p. def gems to go from 60 to 62%, but in reality going from 60 to 62% p. def decreases damage done by 5%.

If you factor in magic damage, then hp shards become more useful and more versatile. So ask yourself, do you find yourself dying to physical damage most often, or a combination of physical and magic damage? for general pvp, sharding 100% physical defense shards is unwise, especially since wizards and clerics can be pretty deadly at 9x. On the other hand, going 100% hp shards only makes sense if you are a class that dies to magic damage often, and this really mainly applies to barbs BM's and archers. The rest should really shards a mixture of both hp and p. def.