Demon Masteries, and Will of Pheonix

Miss_Tika - Lost City · October 2009

Lorsis - Lost City wrote: »

So you have problems with understanding simple sentences, and listening to peoples who have no idea what are they talking about. Read description, it says increasing magic critical rate. MAGIC.
Prove it work 1% per element or stick to description of the skill.

Yes i have hell masteries.

@tempest and 1.5% crit.

Troll

lmfao

No need to be a little fking jack **** about this.

Kannone - Heavens Tear · October 2009

Miss_Tika - Lost City wrote: »

lmfao

No need to be a little fking jack **** about this.

I know right? Friendly community forumsdotdotdot

Cheaper - Heavens Tear · October 2009

Demon masteries: each will add 1% crit to any magical attack. If you have all 3 you will have an added hidden 3% crit to any magic attack(meaning it doesn't get added when u swing your sword or glaive, or w/e at something, which u shouldnt be doing anyways)

don't know why people keep saying its to the element. demon masteries dont work like the sage masteries. for wizard anyway.

so having all 3 masteries:
demon = +3% magical critical hit rate
sage = +5% magical damage

both sides need all 3 or its kinda bad

<-demon wizard btw

CeliaZ - Sanctuary · October 2009

Cheaper - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Demon masteries: each will add 1% crit to any magical attack. If you have all 3 you will have an added hidden 3% crit to any magic attack(meaning it doesn't get added when u swing your sword or glaive, or w/e at something, which u shouldnt be doing anyways)

don't know why people keep saying its to the element. demon masteries dont work like the sage masteries. for wizard anyway.

so having all 3 masteries:
demon = +3% magical critical hit rate
sage = +5% magical damage

both sides need all 3 or its kinda bad

<-demon wizard btw

I believe you, this sounds like normall (1 % vs +5% is **** anyway)... Now find a way to let the sage wizards believe this too...

Kannone - Heavens Tear · October 2009

CeliaZ - Sanctuary wrote: »

I believe you, this sounds like normall (1 % vs +5% is **** anyway)... Now find a way to let the sage wizards believe this too...

That's what I've (sage wizard) been trying to say, that demon masteries couldn't be just 1% crit, just doesn't make sense:

Kannone - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If however I had to guess, I see it this way:

Assumed as truth: Holy & Dark are more or less equal, there really isn't a "better."

Therefore:iff holy masteries give +5% bonus damage, and If dark masteries give 1% total crit, then we have merely 1% damage bonus as lim -> ∞, a gross inequality that favors holy; if however they give 3% crit then we have something much much closer to being equal to the holy version: +3% dmg as lim -> ∞, with the 3% coming as a giant spike. A giant damage spike @ 3% is more or less in line with dark's other skills which favor damage spikes vs. holy's constant damage.

^ this makes sense to me, but again is never been proven I guess.

Kannone - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I was just referring to time*, as time approaches ∞ the damage from dark masteries should equal the damage gained from holy masteries (if and only if we're assuming that both classes are equal and the developers designed their skills to reflect this equality).

Just a hypothetical though b:thanks

*it's assumed that we wouldn't compare two hypothetical mages with different m.attack; instead we're assuming they each have identical magic attack.

CeliaZ - Sanctuary · October 2009

Kannone - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That's what I've (sage wizard) been trying to say, that demon masteries couldn't be just 1% crit, just doesn't make sense:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannone - Heavens Tear View Post

If however I had to guess, I see it this way:

Assumed as truth: Holy & Dark are more or less equal, there really isn't a "better."

Therefore:iff holy masteries give +5% bonus damage, and If dark masteries give 1% total crit, then we have merely 1% damage bonus as lim -> ∞, a gross inequality that favors holy; if however they give 3% crit then we have something much much closer to being equal to the holy version: +3% dmg as lim -> ∞, with the 3% coming as a giant spike. A giant damage spike @ 3% is more or less in line with dark's other skills which favor damage spikes vs. holy's constant damage.

^ this makes sense to me, but again is never been proven I guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannone - Heavens Tear View Post
I was just referring to time*, as time approaches ∞ the damage from dark masteries should equal the damage gained from holy masteries (if and only if we're assuming that both classes are equal and the developers designed their skills to reflect this equality).

Just a hypothetical though

*it's assumed that we wouldn't compare two hypothetical mages with different m.attack; instead we're assuming they each have identical magic attack.

Can you explain your math a little bit more? Whats the formula?

In my opinion, to expand your formulas a bit, it becomes something like this:
(a = your original damage)
Holy:

Lim a->∞ 5% * a This is what a holy wizard would get with their masteries.

Dark:

Lim a->∞ 3% * (2a) This is what a dark wizard would get with their masteries. Notice how dark has only 3 % and holy 5%, however that 3% Doubles the damage you do. So it basicly becomes: 6% * a. Now the difference is, you can't rely on that 6%, while the 5% from the sage masteries is static. Its less, but its always there... this proves to me that a 3% crit from demon is actually more believable than 1 %...

Kannone - Heavens Tear · October 2009

CeliaZ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Can you explain your math a little bit more? Whats the formula?

In my opinion, to expand your formulas a bit, it becomes something like this:
(a = your original damage)
Holy:

Lim a->∞ 5% * a This is what a holy wizard would get with their masteries.

Dark:

Lim a->∞ 3% * (2a) This is what a dark wizard would get with their masteries. Notice how dark has only 3 % and holy 5%, however that 3% Doubles the damage you do. So it basicly becomes: 6% * a. Now the difference is, you can't rely on that 6%, while the 5% from the sage masteries is static. Its less, but its always there... this proves to me that a 3% crit from demon is actually more believable than 1 %...

where A = damage constant* + lv 10 mastery
b = time
H = holy damage (damage constant + lv11 mastery)
D = dark damage (see above)

Lim b -> ∞ H = A x 1.05
which is simple enough, when graphed out it's a straight line (f(x)= mx) that shows 5% greater damage at every point (NOTE!!! this doesn't show crit %, read below)

Dark seems a great bit more complicated:
(the simple version)
Lim b -> ∞ D= A x 1.03 (in simple terms, 3% crit = 3% damage)
This however isn't an accurate number at all, like you mentioned, the damage is spike & so the function is something like f(x) = sin(X^Z + θ) + YX** (a sin wave tilted upwards lol)

where the amplitude variable Y correlates with the damage dealt (holy masteries will show their difference here)***; and x^z + θ would be some equation reflecting the critical strike rate (dark's masteries will show up here).

yah basically it's as simple as Holy masteries shift the amplitude by 5%, but demon masteries increase the frequency by 3% (meaning damage dealt lim -> ∞ is actually shifted forward 3%!! ...so okay they're actually both pretty much perfectly equal lol.

After looking at the math I can offer this suggestion: that someone with demon masteries would increase their damage best by stacking +crit items, while sages will want to grab -chann items.

*while this is non-existent in the short-term, long-term damage should show a perfect constant (the mean of the m.attack spread).

**Yes I'm well aware that it is much more complicated than a simple sin function, but for our purposes... let's just do the easy way O_O

***I have 0 knowledge in programming, and this is where the trig ends & the programming starts lol.

errr... after today's festivities, I'll come take a second look at this & see what's up. Please criticize if you see something wrong, math + early morning = @_@

CeliaZ - Sanctuary · October 2009

Kannone - Heavens Tear wrote: »

where A = damage constant* + lv 10 mastery
b = time
H = holy damage (damage constant + lv11 mastery)
D = dark damage (see above)

Lim b -> ∞ H = A x 1.05
which is simple enough, when graphed out it's a straight line (f(x)= mx) that shows 5% greater damage at every point (NOTE!!! this doesn't show crit %, read below)

Dark seems a great bit more complicated:
(the simple version)
Lim b -> ∞ D= A x 1.03 (in simple terms, 3% crit = 3% damage)
This however isn't an accurate number at all, like you mentioned, the damage is spike & so the function is something like f(x) = sin(X^Z + θ) + YX** (a sin wave tilted upwards lol)

where the amplitude variable Y correlates with the damage dealt (holy masteries will show their difference here)***; and x^z + θ would be some equation reflecting the critical strike rate (dark's masteries will show up here).

yah basically it's as simple as Holy masteries shift the amplitude by 5%, but demon masteries increase the frequency by 3% (meaning damage dealt lim -> ∞ is actually shifted forward 3%!! ...so okay they're actually both pretty much perfectly equal lol.

After looking at the math I can offer this suggestion: that someone with demon masteries would increase their damage best by stacking +crit items, while sages will want to grab -chann items.

*while this is non-existent in the short-term, long-term damage should show a perfect constant (the mean of the m.attack spread).

**Yes I'm well aware that it is much more complicated than a simple sin function, but for our purposes... let's just do the easy way O_O

***I have 0 knowledge in programming, and this is where the trig ends & the programming starts lol.

errr... after today's festivities, I'll come take a second look at this & see what's up. Please criticize if you see something wrong, math + early morning = @_@

Why do you use lim ->∞ of time?

What is the X axe? Y is damage dealed but X? And why exactly is dark a sinus wave.. its more of a Double damage or normall damage, nothing in between..
Anyway, you're right I think (I have math at university but its not my major:P), nice to see someone actually trying to use real math to prove something like this, thank you!

Rainesierr - Lost City · October 2009

lol ok, thankyou demon wizzys on clarifying that, and yeah, no need to get all testy about this xD and to cheaper- you know you melee lvl 30 and 40 mobs, because its fun. honestly who can say they dont melee low lvl mobs just for the heck of it? lol

Edit: oh wow, really cool to see all the math stuff here. personally i love math, lol. you've got the right idea, except that your x axis couldnt be time. this would assume, that if time=0 is when you get your masteries, both demon and sage would do 0 damage, then if you cabe back like a year later you would do infinite damage. therefore i believe, if you were to use a linear function for the sage masteries, it would have to have a slope of 0, or the x-axis would have to be base matk. furthermore, the +3% crit would offer a varying bonus not only related to the base matk but also to the crit rate offered by stats and equips. (also you would actually need to take into account whatever crit the sage had when doing their damage, because they crit sometimes too!) so for the sage and demon sides to be equal, assuming demon is inherently equal to sage would be (a x 1.05)+(a x (.01 x crit rate))=(a x 1)+(a + (.01 x (crit rate+3))) this damage however assumes the same gear and same stats...and im not going to try to go any deeper into the math than that xD btw celiaz its just called a sine wave. sinuses are little cavities in your head(i think? i do math not biology xD)

Lancalot - Harshlands · October 2009

I think this isn't too offtopic, so I'll ask here.

What about BMs?

BM have 5 masteries, and demon version has 75% damage +1% crit per weapon,
Sage gives 90% damage.

So its the same problem * 5.

Does it Stack, Because the difference between 25% extra damage and 1% or 5% crit is prity big...

Also I asume that the devs didn't stack the crit for one class and not the other.

prof · October 2009

the passives for the different trees clearly state what weapon gets this effect. whereas our mage passives only say it adds to magic attack, which should mean all.

Lancalot - Harshlands · October 2009

Actualy it just says "Demon version gives a 1% increase to critical hit rate."

The full description (From ecatomb):

Passive Skill

Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Void
Increases all blade and sword weapon damage by 75% and increases critical hit rate.

Demon version gives a 1% increase to critical hit rate.

prof · October 2009

pwi definitions are always bad.

Dark-Blade & Sword Mastery
Passive skill
Cultivation requirement Daimon Baresark
All blade and sword class of weaponary will attain another 75% of additional damage.
When using blade and sword weaponary to attack, it increase 1% of the critical strike rate.

Dark-Polearm Mastery
Passive skill
Cultivation requirement Daimon Baresark
All polearm and long weaponary class will attain another 75% of additional damage.
When using polearm and long weaponary to attack, it increase 1% of the critical strike rate.

Dark-Axe & Mace Mastery
Passive skill
Cultivation requirement Daimon Baresark
All hammer and axe class of weaponary will attain another 75% of additional damage.
When using hammer and axe weaponary to attack, it increase 2% of the critical strike rate.

Dark-Fist Feat Mastery
Passive skill
Cultivation requirement Daimon Baresark
All fist feat class of weaponary or Barehanded status will attain another 75% of additional damage.
When using fist feat weaponary to attack, it increase 1% of the critical strike rate.

MagicHamsta - Lost City · October 2009

CeliaZ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Why do you use lim ->∞ of time?

What is the X axe? Y is damage dealed but X? And why exactly is dark a sinus wave.. its more of a Double damage or normall damage, nothing in between..
Anyway, you're right I think (I have math at university but its not my major:P), nice to see someone actually trying to use real math to prove something like this, thank you!

lim goes to ∞ is a simple physics/engineering "trick" lol.
makes things less complicated.
after all we be talking about abstracts without the words of a developer. b:sin
inverted sin wave since thats how the damage behaves after an extended time period.
d(^.-d)'

CeliaZ - Sanctuary · October 2009

MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »

lim goes to ∞ is a simple physics/engineering "trick" lol.
makes things less complicated.
after all we be talking about abstracts without the words of a developer. b:sin
inverted sin wave since thats how the damage behaves after an extended time period.
d(^.-d)'

I know what lim->∞ does, I just didnt see the point of using it in this particular example...:)

Could you explain to me why the damage behaves as an inverted sin?

MagicHamsta - Lost City · November 2009

CeliaZ - Sanctuary wrote: »

I know what lim->∞ does, I just didnt see the point of using it in this particular example...:)

Could you explain to me why the damage behaves as an inverted sin?

oh noes. she onto me ebil ebil plan~ b:avoid
um me mean....squeak? *stare stare*

CeliaZ - Sanctuary · November 2009

MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »

oh noes. she onto me ebil ebil plan~ b:avoid
um me mean....squeak? *stare stare*

How does that anwser my questions? I really dont get what you are saying:P

MagicHamsta - Lost City · November 2009

CeliaZ - Sanctuary wrote: »

How does that anwser my questions? I really dont get what you are saying:P

yay then me doing something right. b:laugh
okie so me not exactly sure why they set it to infinity. but with me strange knowledge of teh particle physics (not building a super weapon. b:avoid yet... xD) me has found people just do that even for finite shapes such as an oblong circle or something strange like that. me thinks it stands to mean take the integral throughout the entire object which in this case be the damage since it be vague and all.
as for the inverted sin function. (^.^) it just looks good? =O
me will has to think some more about this. (>.<)'
me always was bad at actually setting up integrals. b:sad

Edit: okies so inverted sin function. me sure that being a sin function should be correct since me rule out linear lols. (X_x) what with spike damage and all. and probably a sin function since over a long period of time it would behave like that (ups and downs and so forth with those random spikes being smoothed out)
but why inverted? O.o'
Kannone just pulled out Riemann integral for no reason? (O.o)'
oy Kannone explain mayhaps why it be inverted. xD

hmm "yah basically it's as simple as Holy masteries shift the amplitude by 5%, but demon masteries increase the frequency by 3% (meaning damage dealt lim -> ∞ is actually shifted forward 3%!! ...so okay they're actually both pretty much perfectly equal lol." -Kannone.
would teh developers really put in all that effort to make it equal? o.O'
unless....one of the developers use noob power? zmog!

Kannone - Heavens Tear · November 2009

CeliaZ - Sanctuary wrote: »

I know what lim->∞ does, I just didnt see the point of using it in this particular example...:)

Could you explain to me why the damage behaves as an inverted sin?

(wish I had a blackboard

)

Sin wave to explain damage dealt is just a theory of mine; no it wouldn't necessarily be inverted (cosine) because the fact is that your damage dealt at time 0 would be 0 (this would be the very point before you begin casting your first spell).

graph this on a calculator f(x)= sin(x) + x and you get a nice clean upward-slanting curve. On this curve you could say that damage dealt [y axes] at the point in time [x-axes] of each hit would be represented by a peak, and where it levels out would be damage already dealt but not currently being dealt [this entire curve, from 0 to ∞ would be our DPS] (again, pure speculation).

Now it's a given that both increase in damage and crit-strike rate affect this curve; and it's ours to guess how o.O. My best guess is that critstrikes will shift the frequency of peak damage (ie group the humps closer together), and static damage gain will merely affect the amplitude (the humps stay further apart, but the range will be larger). Try graphing something like... f(x) = sin(x

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

RAEEEGGGGQUIT!!!!! lame -..-

okay so I had another paragraph and 1/2 + footnotes that totally made sense 30 seconds ago... but dissapeared when I tried to post them. Sorry D'=

MagicHamsta - Lost City · November 2009

yes blackboard solves all. lols?
blarg me am pretty much agreeing with Kannone's logic.
me would've gone for a regular sin wave but they basically the same thing lols.
starts at 0 goes upwards & down and what not.
almost like....a hamster wheel. b:dirty
well me off to run for the next 30 minutes or something.

NOOOES your "another paragraph and 1/2 + footnotes that totally made sense 30 seconds ago... but dissapeared when I tried to post them. Sorry D'="
be gone?

drats how me going to get this ruby laser working nows?
(>.<) lols

CeliaZ - Sanctuary · November 2009

Kannone - Heavens Tear wrote: »

(wish I had a blackboard )

Sin wave to explain damage dealt is just a theory of mine; no it wouldn't necessarily be inverted (cosine) because the fact is that your damage dealt at time 0 would be 0 (this would be the very point before you begin casting your first spell).

graph this on a calculator f(x)= sin(x) + x and you get a nice clean upward-slanting curve. On this curve you could say that damage dealt [y axes] at the point in time [x-axes] of each hit would be represented by a peak, and where it levels out would be damage already dealt but not currently being dealt [this entire curve, from 0 to ∞ would be our DPS] (again, pure speculation).

Now it's a given that both increase in damage and crit-strike rate affect this curve; and it's ours to guess how o.O. My best guess is that critstrikes will shift the frequency of peak damage (ie group the humps closer together), and static damage gain will merely affect the amplitude (the humps stay further apart, but the range will be larger). Try graphing something like... f(x) = sin(x

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

RAEEEGGGGQUIT!!!!! lame -..-

okay so I had another paragraph and 1/2 + footnotes that totally made sense 30 seconds ago... but dissapeared when I tried to post them. Sorry D'=

Woot, thank you! That makes sense!

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · November 2009

So finally I have it(sage). And first feeling? AWESOMEb:laugh
The main difference is in chi. I have MUCH more chi, than I had before, thanks to master li technique and sage pyro. Is really insane. I can do 2 spark every second minute. Also 3 spark is amazing. It gave me 20% mana back so that really nice. The most amazing skill is for sure master li technique. I wouldn't say before, that chi is soooooo important. It allows me to get mana back, increase attack, and faster flying(using distance shrink when flying b:chuckle) And the best thing is, that is absolutely FREE. I'm using it every minute for sure. As I sad I can do 2 spark very, very very,very often now. b:victory

omgwtfbbqhaxors · November 2009

no you can't. because good factions have their archers take out wizzes first. and i bet you're a 2 shot. so that means you'll be short on chi.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · November 2009

omgwtfbbqhaxors wrote: »

no you can't. because good factions have their archers take out wizzes first. and i bet you're a 2 shot. so that means you'll be short on chi.

Your bet is wrong.b:chuckle Especially when I will be end-game mage,but it take approximately +1 year.

Kristoph - Lost City · November 2009

Uh, you most likely are a one/two shot to anyone above level 95, unless heaven's tear really sucks that much.

On lost city, 89 is a worthless level, you're still completely useless.

exent · November 2009

I've just read all the posts above and there is something you guys seem to be forgetting...

Sage Masteries = +25% (so 125% of original damage)

Demon Masteries = +20% (so 120% of original damage)

Now what is interesting here is that sage gives a bonus equal to 5% of the ORIGINAL damage... Between 125% and 120%, there is only a 4% increase (4.166666 to be precise):

125/120 = 4.166666...

So when comparing Demon and Sage masteries, the difference is closer to 4%, not 5%.

Ursa - Dreamweaver · November 2009

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

Uh, you most likely are a one/two shot to anyone above level 95, unless heaven's tear really sucks that much.

On lost city, 89 is a worthless level, you're still completely useless.

Lost is not a benchmark, other servers don't have that many high lvls.
Hell, on my server there is no lvl 100 wizz yet and you can count all the 100s without going into double digits ... (well, under 15 on thel server for sure).
I've been 1 shoted once, by a +10 TT90 crossbow and a guy that has basically full lunar ornaments/tome/ whatever u want from event name it he has it. But yeah, CS player > me, so I don't mind. Soon the guy will have a warsoul +12 and basically all DW server will be a 1 shot for him.
But I don't take him as a benchmark, I take other ppl with "normal" TT gear with decent refines under 99 (+5, +7) and do i get 1 shoted in that case? Not yet. My crappy 5.7k HP (buffed) and 6.6-7k pdef (buffed) keeps me away from 1 shots. Until now. But since I'm not a CSer I will be a 1 shot to a lot of ppl soon. Can't compare grinding/farming with sliding a Visa whenever u need somethin'.

Kristoph - Lost City · November 2009

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

Meanwhile, if demon mastery critical hit bonuses stack, we get +3% critical hit chance from demon mastery. That might be only a 2.5 to 2.7% dps increase if we already had a decent critical hit chance but, for PvP purposes the value of our critical chance is almost double a comparable flat dps increase. (Because, you ignore time when you one hit someone.)

Not exactly... extra raw damage combined with crits or skills like Ice Dragon work out really well for sage.

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Lost is not a benchmark, other servers don't have that many high lvls.
Hell, on my server there is no lvl 100 wizz yet and you can count all the 100s without going into double digits ... (well, under 15 on thel server for sure).
I've been 1 shoted once, by a +10 TT90 crossbow and a guy that has basically full lunar ornaments/tome/ whatever u want from event name it he has it. But yeah, CS player > me, so I don't mind. Soon the guy will have a warsoul +12 and basically all DW server will be a 1 shot for him.
But I don't take him as a benchmark, I take other ppl with "normal" TT gear with decent refines under 99 (+5, +7) and do i get 1 shoted in that case? Not yet. My crappy 5.7k HP (buffed) and 6.6-7k pdef (buffed) keeps me away from 1 shots. Until now. But since I'm not a CSer I will be a 1 shot to a lot of ppl soon. Can't compare grinding/farming with sliding a Visa whenever u need somethin'.

Heaven's tear has been around for as long as lost city, so... they should/could have the same amount. The top faction on our server has like 190 90+, and a lot of other factions have a lot of 9x and even some 10x. (top faction has a little over 40 10x)

So yeah, 89 is pretty much a twoshot. Hell, I can oneshot a 89 wiz without needing a crit/spark(s) and I'm a wizard myself, would only be easier for archers/barbs. Without hh90 you don't matter.

Kristoph - Lost City · November 2009

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

Yes, I was talking about about masteries, and I was not talking about other skills. If we start talking about other skills and their advantages, we would be getting the usual sage/demon tangent thread, again, all over again, again.

Just saying, you can't really look purely at masteries, because it's about how the affect your other skills.

exent · November 2009

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

Meanwhile, if demon mastery critical hit bonuses stack, we get +3% critical hit chance from demon mastery. That might be only a 2.5 to 2.7% dps increase if we already had a decent critical hit chance but, for PvP purposes the value of our critical chance is almost double a comparable flat dps increase. (Because, you ignore time when you one hit someone.)

Actually no. The % increase in critical is the last value that affects your damage output. A bonus of, let's say 5% critical, will directly give you 5% increase in dps over a long period of time, regardless of how much Critical % you had in the first place.

Of course, that all doesn't mean squat when you are fighting someone. I was just explaining that the difference of damage between Sage and Demon is not 5%.

Demon Masteries, and Will of Pheonix

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