Proof that fists are ult 1v1 weps!

Ophelius - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Armor of the demonhunter: -.1 interval

Lulz.

You're in the wrong forum. This is a class restricted armor. It's not statistically impossible to get it, it's just impossible for a blademaster to get it. By the way, you do realize that under similar gear, an axe blademaster can achieve a similar interval, since axes can actually be produced with -.3 altogether. Lawl. And Demon Highland Cleave has the chance to increase your intervals by .25.
You didn't study enough, my friend.

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Kite. b:bye

you gana kite too? because I'm yet to face a wr 1v1 that isn't 10 levels higher with +12 refines who can tank my dps.

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

I just love the assumed omniscience people seem to believe that they possess. Here seems to be the common reasons fists are no good.

1. fists are weak and don't deal enough damage, so they can tank them no problem.

2. unless fists spark, they aren't going to be able to kill.

3. if fists spark they will kite.

4. if someone uses fists at all, they will kite.

Wrong. My only idea of fists being not as strong as the other weapon paths is based on the knowledge that without stacked -intervals, fists/claws are worthless, except for occasional Shadowless Kicks to **** of casters and control the AoE's and magical attacks of many bosses and normal mobs in the game. Fists and claws are only really worth if your gears can support that interval speed that the fist path is based on. Blademasters are the fastest class in the game on land, it's not that easy to avoid all damages from a blademaster. One way or another, they will get caught in a Roar of the Pride, which gives a good time to kill of any casters.
And aren't you kind of being a hypocrite here? Aren't you acting like you know about every aspect of being a blademaster?(No disrespect intended. I respect you as a blademaster).

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

So people believe they will stand and take the hits since fists can't kill, and somehow kite as well? Not only that, axes can be kited easily as well; they both have no distance attacks in their branches. Yet everyone assumes axes are great for pvp due to berserk.

Again. Without a highly interval stacked equipment, fists deal much too low of DPS to compare with other weapons. Fists rely heavily on intervals.

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

So both axe and fist would use heaven's, drake's, and roar in their combo. Find the time left over from either 12 secs or 13.5 and find out which actually is better. All this opinion really is ridiculous at this point in the game, try raising the forums up a bit and actually use some proof.

Fist beats any other weapon IF AND ONLY IF they have a incomparably higher interval rate than the other weapon. Just timing Roar of the Pride + Alter Marrow Physical + Cyclone Heel correctly would kill any type of other alternative weapon paths.
If a pair of axes have an equal interval rate to a fist, it would obviously mean that the axes would win, since the fists lost what they're suppose to excel at.

Accelerated - Sanctuary wrote: »

Wrong. My only idea of fists being not as strong as the other weapon paths is based on the knowledge that without stacked -intervals, fists/claws are worthless, except for occasional Shadowless Kicks to **** of casters and control the AoE's and magical attacks of many bosses and normal mobs in the game. Fists and claws are only really worth if your gears can support that interval speed that the fist path is based on. Blademasters are the fastest class in the game on land, it's not that easy to avoid all damages from a blademaster. One way or another, they will get caught in a Roar of the Pride, which gives a good time to kill of any casters.
And aren't you kind of being a hypocrite here? Aren't you acting like you know about every aspect of being a blademaster?(No disrespect intended. I respect you as a blademaster).

Again. Without a highly interval stacked equipment, fists deal much too low of DPS to compare with other weapons. Fists rely heavily on intervals.



Fist beats any other weapon IF AND ONLY IF they have a incomparably higher interval rate than the other weapon. Just timing Roar of the Pride + Alter Marrow Physical + Cyclone Heel correctly would kill any type of other alternative weapon paths.
If a pair of axes have an equal interval rate to a fist, it would obviously mean that the axes would win, since the fists lost what they're suppose to excel at.

Much as I don't discuss strategies or comparisons for arcane fist BMs, I don't bother mentioning about fist BMs without stacked interval. I wouldn't defend anything they do, as a fist master without stacks of -interval is not a fist master at all. Not worth worrying about.

Also, my post never said which would be better either way, it was a direct complaint over how others are trying to compare. They take numerous what ifs, toss a bunch of unsubstantiated opinion, and lump it all together as fact. Essentially, they assume they are all-knowing and that their opinion is the only fact they need. They mention kiting, something which gimps fist and axe equally, as a detriment to fist only.

For myself, I prefer just looking at straight up facts and mechanics. Later work them into actual play. So I posted what needs to be done to actually have a useful opinion one way or the other. I myself haven't done it yet, because at the moment I don't really care. But I do know that best way to determine which is better is to compare them equally in the most favorable light; Have a higher than 20% proc for berserk since people hope for lucky spikes, and finding what is the minimum requirement for attack speed in fists to equal out with everything extra being a premium. Refinement level would be between +5-+10, with equal rings. Add in attack charms as well if mentioning pk, and make use of most efficient speed buff for max interval efficiency. Later factor in weapon swap times and other misc items to find out which one ends being the best. Though it seems the assassin skills will favor fisters more if reflected skill damage comes into play when killing them.

So I know how to find it, I just haven't bothered yet. I guess saying I know how to find it may sound pretentiously omniscient, but for the most part I just look at what the numbers end up saying. So I'm more the omniscient thingies henchman.

Accelerated - Sanctuary wrote: »

And just to be clear, Demon Highland Cleave adds -.25 intervals compared to only -.2 from Demon Cyclone.

Speed buffs aren't static. The speed buffs add more interval for slower weapons, and less for faster weapons. Course, the faster weapons still get more attacks per second due to increasing returns on interval.

Atk Interval * remaining speed determines your new interval.

So say .7 attack interval from plain fists, no -interval. Use demon cyclone for:

.7 * .8 = .56 As there are only -interval in batches of .05, it is rounded to .55, for an effective -.15 interval.

Same thing with .4 interval from fists and TT99 with demon cyclone would be:

.4 * .8 =.32 Rounded to .3 it drops down to only -.1 interval.

The effect of speed buffs keep changing depending what interval it is based off of.

prof wrote: »

you gana kite too? because I'm yet to face a wr 1v1 that isn't 10 levels higher with +12 refines who can tank my dps.

Not denying the dps, just pointing out that most people are not going to sit there and let you smack them.

are any of u ppl actually fist bms? have u ever put it on a char in the game and tested it for real? the calc and theories only go so far.....

yes fists rely HEAVILY upon -interval gear and when we have that our dps ig GODLY compared to axes

im hybrid ax fist with just over min dex for fists rest str... i do 75% dmg of axes with my fists(have both frost fists and frost hammers wiuth equal refines and shards) so even without -interval gear dmg is slightly higher per second with fists but not enough... i have 90 gear in bank wich will put me at 2.00 atk spd with fists but axes will still be around 1 so the more -interval the bigger the difference


and comment on the person sayin low spd weps will get more bonus from spd buffs then hi spd weps..... that doesnt make sense.... it adds a % to atk spd
the % is based on skill level not what weps u use..... and if im not mistaken 25% of 200(50 in case ur "slow") is larger then 25% of 100(25 duh!)

Accelerated - Sanctuary wrote: »

You do realize axes can be produced with -.3 intervals altogether, right?
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=a88d8ee1fec943d1

And just to be clear, Demon Highland Cleave adds -.25 intervals compared to only -.2 from Demon Cyclone.

just to be fair.
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=63f386914f7ff332

Ophelius - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Granrey, Pdef reduces damage by a percentage, not a set amount. It could be argued that fists are less affected by pdef than axes are because of their lower damage. XD

That is my believe but I have not being able to demostrate that.
However, since masteries afect myriad of sword stance in different way. I suspect anything is posible.

Ophelius - Dreamweaver wrote: »

What do you mean?

Think he is referring to the reality of many mechanics in the game do not seem to agree with the commonly accepted way that they should.

Admittedly, this is from when I farmed on my cleric, but I found that the % amount is not actually accurate. This is when I steadily sharded wood only armor with WB drop wood def shards. Each time there would be a change in defense. The first disrupt was from how much each shard gave. Without any kind of magic defense buff, each gem acted as if it already had a 60% boost. I even tested with a lvl 1 gem that was 8 wood resist. Tossed it in a 1 socket **** armor, equipped it, and had a 13 boost to my wood resist without any kind of buff active. And since 160% of 8 is 12.8, rounded to 13, it acts as if a buff is already active right away. Not sure if it gets the boost again when a buff is active, but that is one thing different than it should be.

Then there was the % reduct. I saw a steady increase until the 18k+ wood resist range. There it would take more to get the % reduction, but even at the same % of reduction I would notice a set number of drop from poison damage. Each time it would drop the same amount of damage, irregardless if there was a change in % damage reduction. And doing the math out, it did not work correctly. The set number would have led to a 0 amount of damage around 88-90% dmg reduction. So again, the % dmg reduct failed in that regard as well.

So there are certain areas where the game does not correctly reflect the actual way it plays out, the hard part is finding which ones could be affected. Now, seeing that my end wood resist was 21k, I don't think these mechanics will factor into current play so much until people start heavily refining heavily into end game gear. Of course at this point, Ganrey's point would be moot since the difference in damage would lessen as fists would be refined as well. And fists kind of suck in damage boost without the advantage of refinement. The only difference between my Gorenox and some lvl 60 fists is less than 25% if it wasn't for the -interval, which is kind of messed up.

So while there may be something to it, by the time it would come into actual effect it would be rendered null and void by weapon refinement anyways. At best, it might switch from fists to swords, but even that is unlikely. Just using the poison pots, or the lunar glade cube fists, would kill that benefit either way. It would just change what we'd use, but for now -interval is still king for fisters.

This thread's making me rage just a bit here so bear with me for a second. Firstly the OP of this thread is completely wrong since he's focusing on only one aspect of killing. Not to mention he's wrong on what he's focusing on, but whatever.
(Yes I have played both fist and axes quite frequently)

In any case the reason fists aren't as good as axes don't only depend on their base DPS, but what the skills do with that base DPS. Every axe tree skill except fissure adds a certain percentage plus some extra base damage. Fist skill tree has cyclone heal and the ulti that add on a percentage of base damage. Damage, NOT dps. Axes have the higher base damage per attack so even on the skills that add a % for fists don't do as much for them as they do for axes.

Then the question of kiting, and here's where you're all really making me rage. STUNS. I don't know why you all have it in your heads that BMs are amazing damage. We're not. The only way you can kill someone (who decently knows how to pvp) without assistance is learning how to stun lock. Stun locking is impossible to accomplish with any tree other than axes. End of story. If everything hits the target flawlessly a good axe bm can expect to keep a target locked for a good ~20 seconds. 20 seconds compared to a possible 9 for any other skill tree. That is why people can kite fists so easily and can't kite axes so easily.

Fists are for PVE.

Sigh whatever I'll just be satisfied knowing you're an idiot talking about pvp from a pve server.

Escorian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

lol ok im an idiot yet you have yet to even see swordman.

Wrong. However I'm done with this topic, if you can't figure out for yourself why your arguments aren't valid then whatever, you picked the right server. Have fun.