Demonic or Celestial Sage for Heavy Veno?

Saoirie - Sanctuary
Saoirie - Sanctuary Posts: 42 Arc User
edited October 2009 in Venomancer
Hello.
I have a question as you probably noticed from the title. lol

I can't seem to find any threads on what the difference between Demonic and Celestial Sage is. I would highly appreciate know even just that. And any opinions on what a heavy veno would be best at being are greatly appreciated too! ^_^

Thanks,
Saoirie
Post edited by Saoirie - Sanctuary on

Comments

  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Saoirie - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Hello.
    I have a question as you probably noticed from the title. lol

    I can't seem to find any threads on what the difference between Demonic and Celestial Sage is. I would highly appreciate know even just that. And any opinions on what a heavy veno would be best at being are greatly appreciated too! ^_^

    Thanks,
    Saoirie

    Did you try reading the stickies?

    Here are two from the stickies:
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=234672
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=198681
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • Obsessed - Heavens Tear
    Obsessed - Heavens Tear Posts: 670 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    tbh both are good, you really cant go wrong. Pick one and like it. Hell, its so split on a veno some people just pick by the look of the fairy.
  • Saoirie - Sanctuary
    Saoirie - Sanctuary Posts: 42 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Did you try reading the stickies?

    Here are two from the stickies:
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=234672
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=198681

    Sorry, never looked at the arcane/robe guides, I only looked at the heavy veno guides. {the heavy one you linked doesn't actually say much about the forms}
    But thanks for the link to the arcane, saw the section on the forms.

    Thanks
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    You are welcome. That is why I linked the arcane one, since it had all the information on the different sage/demon skills
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • LadyRatatosk - Dreamweaver
    LadyRatatosk - Dreamweaver Posts: 52 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    I'll admit that I don't know nearly as much about Venos as I'd like to, but it seems to me that going Demon would be better for a Heavy Veno build to make up for the damage reductions due to lack of MAG affecting mage tree skills and the fact that magic weapons have inherently lower physical attack.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • Isala - Sanctuary
    Isala - Sanctuary Posts: 1,607 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    If you use Fox Form a lot, you might want to go Sage. That massive increase to P-Def will make your already insane defense even higher, and the Melee mastery, combined with your high Strength will make you hit like a truck. Not to mention the fact that magic weapons have a very high attack rate. So you'll be popping out pain faster than anything other than a Fist BM. Sage also has a lot of static damage, so it'd be reliable, compared to Demon's variety. However, that being said, if you consider yourself a lucky person, the various effects on the Demon tree, including extra crit, and Fox Wallop's ability to make every attack a crit for 5 seconds might be your thing. It's really a personal decision, and both have their merits.
  • King_Solomon - Heavens Tear
    King_Solomon - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,341 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    don't worry with sage/demon paths yet. you're months away from it...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    If you're willing to join another online game do NOT join any hosted by K2 NETWORK. Want to know why? Check BBB complaints.
  • Chalkara - Lost City
    Chalkara - Lost City Posts: 57 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    i went demon for ironwood lol, sage fox form would have been great tho lol

    i personaly think that demon relies more on luck, while sage will giv u consistancy
  • Sevas - Heavens Tear
    Sevas - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,132 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    You can also go to http://www.ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php to compare Demon/Sage skills. I went Demon for the speed, cooldowns, and yeah, Ironwood was my favorite skill when I saw how hard it hit, Demon Debuff is a bonus.
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »
    If you use Fox Form a lot, you might want to go Sage. That massive increase to P-Def will make your already insane defense even higher, and the Melee mastery, combined with your high Strength will make you hit like a truck. Not to mention the fact that magic weapons have a very high attack rate. So you'll be popping out pain faster than anything other than a Fist BM. Sage also has a lot of static damage, so it'd be reliable, compared to Demon's variety. However, that being said, if you consider yourself a lucky person, the various effects on the Demon tree, including extra crit, and Fox Wallop's ability to make every attack a crit for 5 seconds might be your thing. It's really a personal decision, and both have their merits.

    The sage defense bonus isn't THAT much. Infact, I think that would come out equal to the improved bramble for demon. A higher defense is worthless if you're not the one being hit, and the higher bramble (not to mention fox wallop) would help with holding aggro. Anyways, heavy veno practically seems like an entirely different class so I'm not sure what all I could suggest that would hold any merit as a result. The closest I could come is http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=3988912&postcount=39 but it was written for arcane/pve so not everything will translate properly (though solandri contributed some thoughts to heavy with that guide http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=3990902&postcount=42 those may help you decide.
  • jojoban
    jojoban Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    If you are a pure foxform, sage is 100% the way to go, full stop. The 100% hit rate of leech saves us having to switch forms to use metabolic boost/hoping pots cover the damage when it fails to hit/etc in tight situations. The added damage of melee mastery gives a much needed kick to our naturally low damage and the added defense of foxform, well, that's a no brainer.

    If you are an HA veno who spends most of your time in human form however, then that changes things quite a bit. I'm personally going to go demon on my mage veno but my HA foxform veno will without a doubt go sage, there is no comparison.
  • Kittennice - Heavens Tear
    Kittennice - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Demon - HA human formb:victory
    Sage - AA/HA foxform :/ or demon if ya want
    The VenoX: Heavy Pure Melee (Axe User with a hint of magic) Venomancer and Proud
    Having fun since lv1
    5 more levels baby!
    ^_____^
    {=^.^=} < I'll never give up. Never give in. )

    I'm for The Cursed!
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=656132
  • SultryShade - Dreamweaver
    SultryShade - Dreamweaver Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Well I'm not there yet on my veno, but I know I'm going sage, mostly because I have some of the worst luck in the game, so for leech I need that 100% chance, and on ironwood I would never get the demon one to go off. But as the others have said, go demon if you're doing human form stuff alot, sage otherwhise, unless you're like me and like bonuses that are always there, then you should go sage ^^
    I will not hesitate to beat you over the head with your own stupidity.

    Yes I am a hypocrite.
  • Reikara - Heavens Tear
    Reikara - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,321 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    I guess this means I should probably write a mini demon/sage guide on my HA/AA guide then? .__.;


    I kinda left it out on purpose, I agree with Obsessed, there's no right or wrong. But I'm getting alot of questions about it .-.

    One thing I dont understand is when demon venomancers say; "I went demon for ironwood!"
    Demon ironwood has a really low chance of actually occuring, plus the fact that sage venos still get a pdef break, mdef break, bleed AND poison with their 79 skill, yes it's random, but it still has a better chance of getting some kind of debuff than none :P

    Demon fox form vs sage. Sage only gains +1k pdef (-%1 damage reduction). Sage venos can get holy path to keep up with demons, spammable to a degree depending on the genie, but we don't lose out on a crazy speed buff.

    I'm not really biased towards sage here, but some of the reasons just aren't so vaild to me :P

    I dont think it's totally fair to base a cultivation on one form when you play both forms either. Even still, to base it on one form when you play just one. There's very good pros to each, you need to weigh them up and see which suits you more. Consider what you will be doing with your veno at 89+, TW? RB?, TT?, PK?, PvE?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • King_Solomon - Heavens Tear
    King_Solomon - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,341 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    The sage/demon choice for foxes is just the very opposite of any other class:

    for raw damage, go sage
    for easy chi, go demon

    Though I still think it's early for you to think about that...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    If you're willing to join another online game do NOT join any hosted by K2 NETWORK. Want to know why? Check BBB complaints.
  • Reikara - Heavens Tear
    Reikara - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,321 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The sage/demon choice for foxes is just the very opposite of any other class:

    for raw damage, go sage
    for easy chi, go demon

    Though I still think it's early for you to think about that...

    Easy chi.. demon? did you really just say that in the same sentence? o_O

    I don't think the foxes here will base their cultivation on just chi or raw damage either. And as far as I know, sage venos still get the 50 chi per minute skill, not demon :0

    There's so many other things to consider. An extra 6 seconds on amp? Or 10% extra damage? An aoe purge? Or a faster cooldown purge?
    A longer lasting bramble? Or a 75% return melee damage? An immunity to slow debuffs? Or a self purify?

    Oh .. what about our aoe with a faster cooldown of a second.. or 3054 intial and OT damage instead??

    Decisions, decisions :P
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Reikara - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Easy chi.. demon? did you really just say that in the same sentence? o_O

    I don't think the foxes here will base their cultivation on just chi or raw damage either. And as far as I know, sage venos still get the 50 chi per minute skill, not demon :0
    Bear in mind that for fox venos, you get 300 chi per minute just from regular attacks. (1.25 atk/sec * 4 chi/atk * 60 sec = 300 chi). I suppose if you're passing out chi like candy with Lending Hand (Sage/Demon versions have a 15 sec cooldown), an extra 50 chi could be handy. But realistically I think a chi shortage is going to be low on the list of things a fox veno worries about, regardless of whether they go Sage or Demon.
    There's so many other things to consider. An extra 6 seconds on amp? Or 10% extra damage?
    I would really like some clarification on this. Ecatomb updated the demon Amp description to say it's a 25% damage boost (level 10 Amp is 20%). Sage is 30% for 20/30 seconds.

    If Demon is 20% for 26/30 sec, Sage Amp is better.
    If Demon is 25% for 26/30 sec, Demon Amp is better.
  • AinaMizuako - Sanctuary
    AinaMizuako - Sanctuary Posts: 1,041 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Chalkara - Lost City wrote: »
    i went demon for ironwood lol, sage fox form would have been great tho lol

    i personaly think that demon relies more on luck, while sage will giv u consistancy

    Demon Ironwood + Bleed = <3

    I'm probably gonna go Demon cause of the flying tomato but my friend will probably knock sense into me. b:surrender
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    oh look, i'm inactive again.

    b> leviciti b:cry
  • King_Solomon - Heavens Tear
    King_Solomon - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,341 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Reikara - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Easy chi.. demon? did you really just say that in the same sentence? o_O

    I don't think the foxes here will base their cultivation on just chi or raw damage either. And as far as I know, sage venos still get the 50 chi per minute skill, not demon :0

    crush vigor is probably the best demon spell. according to description, 50% chance to get free spark, 30s cooldown. I could talk to only 1 veno who had that skill. she said it works >50% of the time.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    If you're willing to join another online game do NOT join any hosted by K2 NETWORK. Want to know why? Check BBB complaints.
  • Reikara - Heavens Tear
    Reikara - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,321 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Yes but, chi isn't what venos are only about here e.e
    There's many non consuming/gaining chi skills for venomancers for both demon and sage.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • SultryShade - Dreamweaver
    SultryShade - Dreamweaver Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    crush vigor is probably the best demon spell. according to description, 50% chance to get free spark, 30s cooldown. I could talk to only 1 veno who had that skill. she said it works >50% of the time.

    And yet the sage soul degeneration can replace an archer if all they are brought for is sharpen tooth arrow, not to mention knocking off 20% of a target's max hp could make PvP easier, especially if it lasts the 30 seconds that the curse does (assuming you don't follow it up with amp or some other curse.
    I will not hesitate to beat you over the head with your own stupidity.

    Yes I am a hypocrite.
  • Sevas - Heavens Tear
    Sevas - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,132 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Cursing over a curse you just cast is idiocy at its finest. (It gets especially infuriating in TT or on other bosses.) I am an VIT/MAG build veno and I went Demon. I have great damage and I have no problems with chi. Ironwood is my favorite skill simply because it hits the hardest of all of my caster skills. (I really like the phys. def. drop when it connects too.) In all seriousness, Venos don't really have to worry about chi unless they are using the 2 spark skills or using spark eruption as often as possible.
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    AinaMizuako - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Demon Ironwood + Bleed = <3

    I'm probably gonna go Demon cause of the flying tomato but my friend will probably knock sense into me. b:surrender

    *grabs hammer* You called?
    SultryShade - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    And yet the sage soul degeneration can replace an archer if all they are brought for is sharpen tooth arrow, not to mention knocking off 20% of a target's max hp could make PvP easier, especially if it lasts the 30 seconds that the curse does (assuming you don't follow it up with amp or some other curse.
    This is something that actually has me interested but I haven't had a chance to test it out yet. Namely, whether or not the HP debuff is considered a part of the curse (so it would lower enemy max HP AND stop HP regeneration but be removed by other curses) or if it's considered seperate from the curse itself.

    If the latter, It's just one more reason to go sage (-20% HP on opponent, then amp and have fun). If the former, there's still extreme poison.
  • Alphae - Lost City
    Alphae - Lost City Posts: 1,512 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Reikara - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I guess this means I should probably write a mini demon/sage guide on my HA/AA guide then? .__.;


    I kinda left it out on purpose, I agree with Obsessed, there's no right or wrong. But I'm getting alot of questions about it .-.

    Wrangle Obsessed into writing one too. You write one from sage perspective, she writes it from demon.

    =D
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • PinkSuccubuS - Lost City
    PinkSuccubuS - Lost City Posts: 74 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    going sage only cos the extra deff and leech now what ather uses the ather sage skill holds will we extra u ppl think 2 much chill and enjoy the game non is bad iff used right veno fights will still we as deadly as it always been


    arcane fox is the best way to go in sage play solo as fox gota low 2 debuff barb and clerics muahahahaha


    77 veno with 5,4k deff and 5,6k mag res

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