Economy and the balace (between coin and Gold) - Runied ? (Y / N)

Vinat - Sanctuary wrote: »

you kinda contradicted yourself.. gold is "worth more" when theres no event because it is less profitable than it would be during an event?
that makes no sense

and for falls.. you said something like it doesnt seem like ppl are buying more gold.. clearly some people are, otherwise the ah would be empty and nobody would be buying any boxes. the boxes are a gold sink, and potentially a coin.. idk the word.. coin adder. and i say potentially bcuz the 10 mil coin box is in no way a guranteed thing, and there are so many other things to get directly from the box that dont create raw coin. just about anything else you get from the box has the potential to earn some coin, but thats just an issue of coin changing hands, not just magically appearing. tho still, i would say that the 10 mil boxes are probably what's being produced the most of everything. best luck tokens are popping out like crazy.

but thats what the entire summer has been.. a giant gold sink.

Maybe you are right, that there is more total Gold and just less Gold being traded because there are more uses for it. However the only way to combat the imbalance remains the same, find more uses for coin to balance it out.

tude wrote: »

Yes the economy is currently out of ballance. Yes this affects everybody in different ways, most in a negative way I agree. I just want to point out that while we all QQ about how bad things are with the economy there is another point of view alltogether that is much more important than that. In the past few days (this is posted 3 days after the Aniversary event started) PWI made more money than possibly ever since its inception. I have friends who spent thousands of dollars on this event aready I have spent only a hundred myself. If you put that next to a few unhappy economy watchers and some really dissapointed high level players wich one do you think weighs more in PWI's corporate mind?. My words of advice, play the game as long as you're having fun, when the fun stops, stop playing.

Actually, from a corporate point of view, a quarter's earnings don't outweight the importance of customer retention figures. MMOs have a very long bussiness cycle and PWI is no exception. Yes, while the game may have been developed in China and the parent company owns full rights, operations in NA supose a larger expense than just an overhead (GMs, servers, billing, etc.) as efforts toward building and maintaining a player base (promotion, localization, etc.) constitute an investment with an expected rate of return. Success in this industry is not made by having a high turnover but a captive customer base. If i owned PW stock i would take advantage of good performance figures and SELL now...

Parody - Harshlands wrote: »

I think we have economics graduates in the house b:shocked

Seriously, my head exploded twice while reading this thread, but from what i gathered, the Dev's need to introduce larger coin sink (event) to balance the ten mill cards and coin boxes...

have i got it right?b:surrender

Right on the Econ, right on the Coin Sink xD.

"Its just a game don't take is so serious"

This. I think all the QQ over this is funny; I play [removed name]. I've seen it all, whiny players are nothing new at all. Just play the game, eh? b:victory

here is my take... i play these games for fun and to do all i can with the toon that i can, all trade skills ect... now it was hard enough at 55th to get materials to make level 6 items 2 star items for that quest to get the book. but wow try doing it at 60 or higher sure u can open a cat shop and pray, and take time from your grind but still mabey u might get some of the items u need to make those items but not realy gona happen any time soon.. now the best way is to grind for coin buy gold use that to buy the mob drop mats u need but now at 400k+ per gold its almost impossable to do that try it with a 55 bm to get 3 gold in under 6 hours of game play. if u say u can then i know u are foll of it.... i dont wanat to spend my game time in a cat shop or spending 12 hours praying a few silk threads will drop they ruined this game for me and alot of others by doing these stupid lame events that do nothing but cause more lag from there lame flaping mounts and glowing this and that. i mean come on u want to do something then make a exp wekend or make a mob drop a special item to turn in for something.. make people spend time working for it instead of **** up the game... dorry for the rant but 3 months commited to this game and now its destroyed thanks PWI

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

"Playing the market" can only work for a small minority of greedy speculators since in order to make a profit someone else needs to take a loss.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how a market works that I see here over and over.

Say the market consisted of two farmers - a cow farmer and a chicken farmer. The cow farmer is getting sick of eating nothing but cheese. The chicken farmer is getting sick of eating nothing bug eggs. One day they meet, talk, and agree to swap some of their products. Cheese for eggs.

What's happened? The amount of cheese and eggs after the exchange is exactly the same as before. But both farmers are much happier. How did that happen when the total amount of stuff hasn't changed? According to your theory, if the cow farmer is happy (made a profit), the chicken farmer should be unhappy (took a loss).

The answer is that to the cow farmer, a dozen eggs is more valuable than a block of cheese. To the chicken farmer, a block of cheese is more valuable than a dozen eggs. By making the exchange, the wealth of each farmer has increased, even though the amount of stuff they have is exactly the same as before. See, wealth is not just the amount of stuff people have, it's also the distribution of stuff among the people. A million cars on dealers' lots isn't doing much good. But a million cars with new owners means those people can do a lot more stuff more cheaply and quickly. There is value in an efficient distribution of resources. Nobody took a loss; everyone made a profit.

In terms of the game, think of a cat shop which buys and sells DQs. Frank picks up DQ items during his regular play. To him they are only worth what the NPC will give him, say 800 each. But lo and behold he sees a cat shop offering to buy them for 1200. He sells all his DQs to the cat shop and makes 50% more money than he would have selling them to NPCs.

Jane wants the same DQs for quests. She could farm them herself, but she's too high level and the DQs she needs don't drop that frequently. She's tried buying them from players in the area but she doesn't have time to chase them all down and hasn't managed to get many. She sees the same cat shop, selling the DQs for 1500. To her that's worth the cost, so she's happy to buy them rather than spend countless hours gathering them herself.

Frank is happy - he got a lot more money for the DQs than he expected.
The cat shop owner is happy - he got 300 coin profit for each DQ he resold.
Jane is happy - she got the DQs she wanted for less cost than if she had to grind for them.
Everyone is happy. Everyone profited. Nobody took a loss.

What happens if you take away the cat shop? Frank sells his DQs to the NPC for only 800 instead of 1200. Jane has to grind for the DQs she needs and loses time she could've spend killing stuff her level for a lot more coin. A worse outcome. True, Frank could sell them to Jane, but most players seem unwilling to devote the time necessary to seek out and make those sorts of deals (Frank could just set up his own cat shop, but doesn't want to bother spending the time to learn the market and leave his shop logged in). So the cat shopp acting as middleman is providing a valuable service - linking sellers with buyers - which helps increase the wealth of all parties involved.

Of course it's possible to abuse the middleman position if you can get close to a monopoly. De Beers did this for decades with the diamond market. They're really only worth less than $100 a carat, but their near-monopoly and skillful (sleazy) marketing (diamond engagement rings are totally their 20th century fabrication - the traditional engagement ring for millenia has been a simple gold band) managed to get people to pay over $1000 a carat. But in an open market with lots of competition, you're generally better off with middlemen than without. They're the ones ascertaining which products will be most desired and where. How do you think Sony knows to send X PS3s to the Los Angeles market and Y PS3s to the New York market? They don't. Middlemen do it for them, and they sell to the middlemen, who resell to the retailers.

Plain and simple "DONT BUY GOLD" lmao. I think if everyone would stop
the gold prices should drop. Any one ever heard of (boycotting) And yes
i know there are people out there that need there gold *PRECIOUS*.
This would be hard for those Addicts like tacking crack from a crackhead.
b:angryb:laughb:bye

Basically the non-paying are arguing about how its unfair the economy is because 1)They are lazy to play the market, 2) They play the market but want quick results, 3) other pple have a better standard of living and can spend more, 4) They have the money to spend but refuse to and expect others to be like that heaven forbid others use cash.
If you dont contribute anything worthwhile to a BUSINESS/COMPANY, chances are high they will take care more of the pple who do contribute.

Vinat - Sanctuary wrote: »

you kinda contradicted yourself.. gold is "worth more" when theres no event because it is less profitable than it would be during an event?

What I mean is that when there aren't events, I hoard Gold. It's worth more to me than coins at that point, because I'm anticipating a sale. So I try to get as much of my coin converted to Gold as quickly and as cheaply as possible. But once the event/sale starts, I'm liquidating Gold instantly because the things it can buy are more valuable than the Gold itself.

So that's what I mean when I see it as "leaning" away from Gold and towards coins at the moment. Whichever way the market "leans", that's what I'm trying to maximize at that moment.

Falls - Sanctuary wrote: »

No that is a misunderstanding, you haven't sunk anything from the economy. Because you are part of the PWI economy, the coins you traded for gold are probably lying in someones Bank,

Shucks. I was going to point out I was talking about the 2% Auction House fee. Which means I have actually sunk ~130k so far out of the game permanently.

Except I just got a second Best Luck token, meaning I can now bring in 10million, which kinda shoots my argument that I've been a net gold-sink right in the foot, leg, thigh and torso.

Falls - Sanctuary wrote: »

And you don't need to see the numbers, it is clear as day that hyperinflation is rampant in the servers, just look at the AH. See, economists use clever tools like that to determine the overall health of the economy without having to calculate every little thing (Which is why the Stock Market Values matter IRL).

OK, but if this hyperinflation is still happening right now, we should see Gold prices steadily rising during the event, right? Assuming people use the 10million coin rewards, of course.

Well, I'm certainly willing to wait and see.

Parody - Harshlands wrote: »

I think we have economics graduates in the house b:shocked

I took Econ 101. It was the single most mind numbingly stupid course I've ever taken, and that's not an exaggeration. I'm not saying all Econ 101 classes are ****, but mine was. It did, however, give me insight into why so people can't manage their own money.

We were asked this question on a test: "If the supply and demand curves overlap at a wage of $10 per hour, and minimum wage is $8 per hour, what will the market wage be?"

$10, right? I mean, c'mon? That's an easy one, right?

Well, out of a class of 28, only 1 other student besides me got it right, and I didn't even bother to study for the test, and I'm a freakin' English Graduate for crying out loud! In the end, the teacher decided he must not have taught the concept correctly, and voided the question off the test, so that way the 26 students who apparently can't think for themselves and can only follow other people's formulas could continue with their business degrees.

Falls - Sanctuary wrote: »

However, if you take a look at the long term trend, the value of gold has quadrupled in just a year, and unless current trends are reversed, it will only keep rising.

Hmm... you know, I just thought of something. There's been a lot of high-profile players quitting because of the anniversary packs. Most are giving their items away, which should accelerate inflation, right?

Do you think we could convince people to take their coins and items with them when they quit, instead? It would help out those of us who are staying! b:chuckle

When I decide to leave the game for good, I'll sell everything I have and delete my character, taking the coins with her. Or just leave them there, either way it does its job.

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

That's an oversimplification, and the funny thing is that's it even got marxist undertones... it puts the blame of economic woes on the capitalistic burgueois. Let's take your own example, [Union Fruit] ...

The regulators (GMs) failed our virtual economy, they created, allowed and encouraged distortions in a proportion and of a nature as to make labour (grinding, farming, leveling) completely useless.

I made no comment on the state of the game economy. If it makes you feel better, I agree with you that they ruined it with this event.

My post was merely address your incorrect statement that for someone to win in a market, someone else has to lose. You're assuming economics is a zero-sum game, and it's not. It certainly can happen as you say, but it doesn't have to happen. And in fact in a properly functioning market, the majority of players end up winning (the economy grows bigger). i.e. There are more winners than losers.

Frank would be dumb to sell his DQ items in a catshop when he can very likely get a better price in AH.

You've got a very conceited view of other people. I refuse to think of my customers as dumb. Most of them know what they're doing. They don't want to bother with the AH or cat shopping for whatever reason (trust me, I know, I've tried to teach many people who refuse). Maybe they don't enjoy it, maybe they don't have the time for it, or maybe as you say they're dumb. But their reasons are their reasons. I don't judge them for it. I tell them, "hey, you'd be better off selling that on your own". If they don't take my advice, and prefer to sell to my cat shop, that's their decision to make, not mine.

The cat shop owner is very likely only profiting from people too lazy to look for a bargain, chances are he overprices items cuz if he doesn't he might as well save himself the effort and move his stuff thru the AH as well.

This too is just flat-out wrong. Economically, the cat shop owner makes the most money when he charges the lowest price. That's what I used to do before I quit cat shopping (made all I'll need from recent events). I price things lower than the other cat shops and make my profit from the huge volume.

The primary constraint on my sales is actually how fast I can obtain whatever it is I'm selling. And wouldn't you know it, the best way to increase the rate at which I obtain stuff to sell is by paying people the highest price for stuff my cat shop buys.

AH would be a viable alternative, except the listing fee and 5% transaction fee kills low-margin business like mine that pay people the most and charge people the least. In the real world, the AH would be replaced by a more efficient model (since conceptually it's superior to cat shops) which charged way less in fees.

It's only in the monopoly situation (which you'll almost never find in this game) where a cat shop could make more money by overpricing. Or people who naively think you can crank up the price as high as you want and it won't affect the volume of your sales.

Jane might have helped a lower level with their cultis in exchange for the DQ items, she's only out money she could have actually saved.

Again, I don't judge people. If Jane doesn't want to help lower levels with their cultis in exchange for DQs, that's her prerogative. Just because you can think of a better for someone to do something doesn't mean they will do it.

Also, you're needlessly complicating the issue by adding another item into the transaction -- help for the cultivation. The cat shop does the same thing, indirectly. Frank and Jane for whatever reason do not cross paths. The cat shop lets them exchange goods (DQ for coin) despite this. Frank gets most of Jane's money for the DQ. Jane gets the DQ. The cat shop takes a cut for making the transaction possible. The extra money Frank gets helps him buy better gear to help him with his cultivation quest.

You can oversimplify any example but this thread is about the gold/coin exchange, and if you're making a profit at either end that's through a trade operation that the original holder of gold/coin might have done him/herself.

Exactly. Might have done him/herself. But didn't because the buyer and seller didn't meet. Until the cat shop made it possible. You seem to be assuming that every transaction which occurs with a cat shop will also occur without one. That's simply not the case. The cat shops allow a lot of transactions to happen which normally wouldn't occur if they weren't there. That increase in trade allows items to be distributed more efficiently, thus providing a net positive benefit to the playerbase.

Edit; I forgot, none of the first two farmers made profit, they simply exchanged goods. Had they traded some of the stuff they got for something more valuable they would have.

The transaction would have been the same with money. If the cow farmer's cost to make cheese was $2 a block, he would sell it for a little more, say $3. If the chicken farmer's cost to make a dozen eggs was $2, he too would sell it for $3. So the cow farmer pays $3 for the eggs, the chicken farmer pays $3 for the cheese, and each makes $1 in profit.

Or put another way, to the chicken farmer, a dozen eggs is worth $2 while a block of cheese is worth $3. While to the cow farmer a block of cheese is worth $2 while a dozen eggs is worth $3. Before their transaction, the chicken farmer has 2 dozen eggs, worth $4 to him. The cow farmer has 1 blocks of cheese, worth $4 to him. After the transaction, the chicken farmer has goods worth $5 ($2 for the eggs, $3 for the cheese). The cow farmer also has goods worth $5 ($2 for the cheese, $3 for the eggs).

And again, you're mixing up stuff with value. Objects do not have an intrinsic fixed value. I already own a car. A second car to me wouldn't be worth it even if you offered it to me for $1000. But to someone who doesn't already have a car, he would probably be eager to buy it for $5000. So my valuation of a car would be <$1000, while his would be $5000. If the car goes to me, the economy as a whole only gains less than $1000 in value. If the car goes to him, the economy as a whole gains $5000 in value. Where does this added wealth come from? It's not from having more stuff. Its from stuff being better distributed so it does society more good.

The money supply is gradually increased for this reason (if the government is doing its job right). If you base it on a fixed quantity like the amount of gold in Fort Knox, population growth and economic expansion makes everything worth less and less (the same amount of gold represents an increasing amount of value). By itself this isn't a problem. But with deflation, people with money suddenly realize, hey, they can just stuff their money under the mattress, and next year it'll be worth even more. So it discourages people from doing useful stuff with their money. With a money supply which can increase to match the value of everything new that's made and done, you don't have this problem. In fact you can cause inflation, which encourages people to find something useful to do with their money, because if they just stick it under the mattress or into a low-interest account at the bank, it'll be worth less next year.

Doubt GM or Person in Charge will do read this.


Please bring down the gold price, let the game be more playable.
Or at least let the monster drop more coins for us soloers. I don't have time to stay in a group for more than 2 hours(constant) a day

b:cryb:surrender

There are many ways to solve the long term problems of the economy but the necesary steps won't be taken because of a lack of vission. PWI does not seem willing to sacrifice short term gain for longevity. Here's what I would do:

1. Stop selling aniversary packs, give people a 48 hr notice to subdue some of the qqers, replace it with an improved Jolly Old Jones (accepts no GAs but prizes are better, just not anything that would give Duke reason to shout or give xp like oracles) and code an npc to buy all lunar items, ubertomes, etc. yes, for massive amounts of coin. It seems counterintuitive but even if it doesn't get rid of all it will help to restore them to some semblance of rarity.

2. Make hammers available ingame as a first step in phasing out boxes. Get rid of DQ mounts in the CS and improve ingame rewards for that quest as well as many others. This measures will actually cause inflation but they're necesary for damage control and revaluing player's effort.

3. Anounce that for the next 4 months or so there will only be one sale each month, and that it will be limited to mounts/fashion, same with release of new items. During that period certain CS items will be available for coin from certain npcs, limited to consumables; teles, GAs, esos and even Charms. Gold Charms... people with massive amounts of coin will invest in these even at expensive prices and people who don't use cash shop will have a lower demand for gold.

4. Massive price hikes for npc items/services, it shouldn't be something casual players can't afford but coin sinks really need to be revamped, this could go hand in hand with slightly improved drop rates, that way the measure is targeted at people hoarding coins and not at regular players grinding everyday. All events during economic recovery would be designed to draw coins (not gold) out of player's pockets. Genie gears, apo items and 3 star items with good stats would be suitable rewards. The last is important as it helps to even the playing field. Also make some rare items available to the uber rich (some mounts/fashion) through coin.

5. Admit mistakes and assure the comunity with actions that it's long term welfare and enjoyment is the company's priority.

I know PW's sales might take a slight short term hit, but people who have been charging major amounts of zen should be relieved that they've made good investments and encouraged to continue in a game in which they've contributed so much. Casual players would be able to gain an advantage through cash shop items like inv extensions and such instead of charging zen just to keep up and finally people who play mostly for free would be encouraged to keep providing a great comunity for paying costumers and not feel like they're trespassing in a game they have no chance to compete in. Long term PW wins and sets itself apart from other f2ps which will allow it to grow and prosper.

None of these things will happen, i know. But PWs future is in the hands of its business side, not the players, asking people not to buy gold is like poor countries governments asking their citizens to save. The higher gold prices are, the less appealing this game will be to both new and old players.