Economy and the balace (between coin and Gold) - Runied ? (Y / N)

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The money supply is gradually increased for this reason (if the government is doing its job right). If you base it on a fixed quantity like the amount of gold in Fort Knox, population growth and economic expansion makes everything worth less and less (the same amount of gold represents an increasing amount of value). By itself this isn't a problem. But with deflation, people with money suddenly realize, hey, they can just stuff their money under the mattress, and next year it'll be worth even more. So it discourages people from doing useful stuff with their money. With a money supply which can increase to match the value of everything new that's made and done, you don't have this problem. In fact you can cause inflation, which encourages people to find something useful to do with their money, because if they just stick it under the mattress or into a low-interest account at the bank, it'll be worth less next year.

The problem is psychology is at the very heart of the economic performance of any sistem, a good example is the extent to which investor's confidence influences markets. I agree, things don't have, in and of themselves, an intrinsic value, yet counterintuively currency seeks to provide an objective measure of the given worth of any item in comerce. Sound economic policy is yet to become a science, and were anyone able to provide a definitive answer to this conundrum well... there's a reason they have a nobel prize in economics.

I still disagree that you can reduce a complex system to only a few factors, the Walmart warehouseish tactics of comerce that you used in your catshops could not possibly be applied to the trading of scarce items. In the farmer's example, once currency is introduced, both parties will prefer to trade in it than to continue bartering amongst themselves as indeed is come to pass everywhere in the world where some reliable form of currency has been introduced.

Currency by it's very nature intoduces a dynamic in which transactions, having an "objective" backdrop in which to be measured, can be said to be made at a certain profit margin. In a 100% fair hypothetical situation, a trade which could be estimated in money coul be said to be just if the value of any two given things is exactly the same. This however is rarely the case and most transactions do end up becoming profit for one of the parties involved. In law you can even sue for damages against hypothetical revenue (such as interest) and in acouting would be earnings are in fact considered a loss. A second car might hold little value for you, but if you refuse to buy a car that's worth $5,000 to someone else for one grand, then you're effectively loosing four thousand dollars in profit. It doesn't matter if you don't need it because it's resale value alone gives it worth as an investment.

In a virtual economy, much as in rl, most people will stand to loose some measure of value in their transactions that is the equivalent of someone else's profit. Comerce does not create wealth, it only redistributes. If you profit from trade is at someone else's expense, just look at international trade balances. Whatever politicians may say about sinergy there is no such thing as win-win in bilateral comerce, in all situations bottomline is one country ends up exporting a part of it's wealth to another. This is not to say profit is bad, nothing wrong with earning your money. But in no economy can all people prosper at the same level, some will benefit (being smart, cheating, etc.) at someone else's expense.

Altros - Sanctuary

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

There are many ways to solve the long term problems of the economy but the necesary steps won't be taken because of a lack of vission. PWI does not seem willing to sacrifice short term gain for longevity. Here's what I would do:

1. Stop selling aniversary packs, give people a 48 hr notice to subdue some of the qqers, replace it with an improved Jolly Old Jones (accepts no GAs but prizes are better, just not anything that would give Duke reason to shout or give xp like oracles) and code an npc to buy all lunar items, ubertomes, etc. yes, for massive amounts of coin. It seems counterintuitive but even if it doesn't get rid of all it will help to restore them to some semblance of rarity.

2. Make hammers available ingame as a first step in phasing out boxes. Get rid of DQ mounts in the CS and improve ingame rewards for that quest as well as many others. This measures will actually cause inflation but they're necesary for damage control and revaluing player's effort.

3. Anounce that for the next 4 months or so there will only be one sale each month, and that it will be limited to mounts/fashion, same with release of new items. During that period certain CS items will be available for coin from certain npcs, limited to consumables; teles, GAs, esos and even Charms. Gold Charms... people with massive amounts of coin will invest in these even at expensive prices and people who don't use cash shop will have a lower demand for gold.

4. Massive price hikes for npc items/services, it shouldn't be something casual players can't afford but coin sinks really need to be revamped, this could go hand in hand with slightly improved drop rates, that way the measure is targeted at people hoarding coins and not at regular players grinding everyday. All events during economic recovery would be designed to draw coins (not gold) out of player's pockets. Genie gears, apo items and 3 star items with good stats would be suitable rewards. The last is important as it helps to even the playing field. Also make some rare items available to the uber rich (some mounts/fashion) through coin.

5. Admit mistakes and assure the comunity with actions that it's long term welfare and enjoyment is the company's priority.

I know PW's sales might take a slight short term hit, but people who have been charging major amounts of zen should be relieved that they've made good investments and encouraged to continue in a game in which they've contributed so much. Casual players would be able to gain an advantage through cash shop items like inv extensions and such instead of charging zen just to keep up and finally people who play mostly for free would be encouraged to keep providing a great comunity for paying costumers and not feel like they're trespassing in a game they have no chance to compete in. Long term PW wins and sets itself apart from other f2ps which will allow it to grow and prosper.

None of these things will happen, i know. But PWs future is in the hands of its business side, not the players, asking people not to buy gold is like poor countries governments asking their citizens to save. The higher gold prices are, the less appealing this game will be to both new and old players.

1. Yes, i agree to removing the packs, and re adding the jolly event, but make it so that u can only acheive the jolly rewards with coin. I no this seems to play in the rich peoples favor, but if they continually sink coin out of the economy, it will inflate the value of coin, and thus deflate the value of gold. Also, keep the oracles as a reward; again this helps only the people with money, but it gives them incentive to sink more coin into the event.

2. Instead of putting hammers for sale by npcs, remove the hammer, and make it so u pay an npc to open the chest of coins. At this point, there r so many DQ mounts out there that it won't make a big difference to remove them, and the damage has already been done.

3. This idea would indeed help sink coin out of the game, but it would also cause deflation on a very large scale; which can almost be as dangerous as inflation. Once the packs are removed, and the gold price drops cause the need for it is less, it would keep the economy more stable to buy gold via AH then causing rapid deflation.

4. Price hikes i thought of earlier, but that would harm the new incoming players that wouldn't be able to afford the standard equips and potions needed to actually play the game. The new peoples are important to keep this game alive, if people stopped playing in the low levels, it would lock up the flow of new people, and thus the game.

5. It would be nice, as the welfare of the community should be important, im certian they'd prefer a brief drop in income, over no job at all. Should we expect such a message? I doubt it.

What we've mentioned here is just basic economics, and if pwe does recognize its mistake early enough, we may very well see techniques like this implemented. Whether or not they due is based on player imput, dev input, and gm imput (tho i believe the gms r doing the best they can atm).