Economy and the balace (between coin and Gold) - Runied ? (Y / N)
batta710
Posts: 5 Arc User
Hi
How many of you think that the economy and the balance between coins and Gold ... or the effort to make items in the game are ruined completely ?
Give your comments please ...
Thanks
*
2 typo-s
1. *ruined ( at header )
2. dnt take *it so serious( at poll )
How many of you think that the economy and the balance between coins and Gold ... or the effort to make items in the game are ruined completely ?
Give your comments please ...
Thanks
*
2 typo-s
1. *ruined ( at header )
2. dnt take *it so serious( at poll )
Post edited by batta710 on
0
Comments
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Hi
How many of you think that the economy and the balance between coins and Gold ... or the effort to make items in the game are ruined completely ?
Give your comments please ...
Thanks[/QUOTE]0 -
It was ruined to the point of no return.I was early taught to work as well as play,
My life has been one long, happy holiday;
Full of work and full of play-
I dropped the worry on the way-
And God was good to me everyday.0 -
It was ruined a long time ago.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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I could care less about the so-called "ecomony". It's just a game! I play for fun, not for vanity or to reach some form of symbol status. Most of you take video games so freakin seriously...... grow up.0
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Hi
How many of you think that the economy and the balance between coins and Gold ... or the effort to make items in the game are ruined completely ?
Give your comments please ...
Thanks
QQ else where like i've said on numerous topics the inflation is due to the anniversery NOT because the GMs set it that way and after september the inflation should be down0 -
I play for fun and to do different things in game. I still want to do GV and etc. Only problem is, how are you going to pass that (without dying/near dying) 3/4 the time when you have no charm which only comes from cash shop or overpricing cat shops / sellers.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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I also play for fun, but I still buy Charms. My current one has lasted over a month now, thanks to the Jolly Jones Jiaozis and Tree of Protection.Maiya - Lost City wrote: »I play for fun and to do different things in game. I still want to do GV and etc. Only problem is, how are you going to pass that (without dying/near dying) 3/4 the time when you have no charm which only comes from cash shop or overpricing cat shops / sellers.
It does suck, I admit, that the economy is constantly driving up the prices on most things because of a few things that people are willing to fork over big bucks for.
But having said all that, the balance between coin and Gold is still biased towards coins, provided you look around at the market and see where the deals are. You can buy Gold at 365k on Sanctuary, exchange it, and sell the items you get for 440k.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
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Maiya - Lost City wrote: »how are you going to pass that (without dying/near dying) 3/4 the time when you have no charm which only comes from cash shop or overpricing cat shops / sellers.
Not sure what GV is but as for what to do with no charms... potions and apothecary regeneration herbs. And I got plenty of those herbs to last me a long time whenever my current charms run out.0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »But having said all that, the balance between coin and Gold is still biased towards coins, provided you look around at the market and see where the deals are.
Huh, what? o_O
Your example is dependent on buying Gold or items you can only get with Gold and selling them at a higher price. How is this balanced towards coins? The only reason you might think it is balanced towards coins is because the game doesn't allow for straight up Gold Trades in Cat Shops, or via Trade Window. So yeah, I need to convert my dollar bills into fake currency known as Zen, then convert it to more fake currency known as Gold, then convert it into another fake currency known as in game coins (Occasionally with an exchange tax). The point here is no matter what I am converting it to, only my original dollar bill is doing any work (Has any actual buying power).
The only way it would be balanced towards coin, is if the coin had value independent of the dollar. People can in fact grind for coin, and farm mines and herbs for coin (Otherwise known as doing work for the Coin). These are the only activities that give coin any value beyond simply being a fake currency that we need to convert our money to use in an artificial economy (A balance that was in fact shattered with the introduction of Coin Boxes, and completely destroyed with Anniversary Boxes). To further compound the problem, the only NPCs one needs to spend coin on a regular basis on, are the Teleporters and the Skill Masters (Maybe the Apothecaries if Charms become a thing of the past). This means that anything else purchase-able is dependent on the amount of available Gold on the server. (Many TT Items/Rebirth/Cube are also dependent on Gold, for the Gold Charms needed to sustain the Boss AoEs and the like.)
So to reiterate the balance of Coins vs. Gold:
True Coin Uses (Coin Sinks):
1. Skill Master
2. Teleporters (Some don't even use this)
3. Apothecaries (Also tentative)
4. Various irrelevant and one time things (Like Bidding on TW)
Methods for Coin Entering the Server Economy:
1. Grind, do work in Game.
2. *Now, Thanks to Anniversary Boxes and Coin Boxes, Coin now enters the Economy via straight up buying it with Gold (No work by anyone required
).
Methods for Gold Entering the Server Economy:
1. Pay real money for it.
True Uses for Gold:
1. TT
2. TW/PvP
3. Rebirth
4. Cube
5. Zhen
6. Buying End Game Items (Yay, New Update!)
7. The Whole Cash Shop
Actually, this list can go on forever so let me just say:
As of this update, the true use for Gold in PWI, is to buy the Whole Entire Game. EXP, End-Game Items, Fun in the form of PvP, and other group activities, anything you could ever want is no longer dependent on the available in game coins on the server. Wow! What a balance!
And to the OP, a poll would be nice. Try clicking Thread Tools, then Add Poll.0 -
GV is Rebirth. I'm specifically talking about 86+. Which is required at some point for cultivation / one of the fairies in the end.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »I also play for fun, but I still buy Charms. My current one has lasted over a month now, thanks to the Jolly Jones Jiaozis and Tree of Protection.
It does suck, I admit, that the economy is constantly driving up the prices on most things because of a few things that people are willing to fork over big bucks for.
But having said all that, the balance between coin and Gold is still biased towards coins, provided you look around at the market and see where the deals are. You can buy Gold at 365k on Sanctuary, exchange it, and sell the items you get for 440k.
Ever noticed how there's always people whose awesomeness and uberness allows them to simply deal with whatever troubles other players have as if they were nothing more complicated than slaying a low level mob?
"Playing the market" can only work for a small minority of greedy speculators since in order to make a profit someone else needs to take a loss.
Edit; And to the people playing for fun, you apparently believe neither skill nor effort should be rewarded in a game.0 -
Well, no, because my initial grinding when I was level 15 is what's still doing all the work. I used that money to buy and sell Dull Claws, and then used that to buy and sell Honey Juice. After that I started buying Gold from the Auction House and reselling on-sale Cash Shop items after the sales were over.Falls - Sanctuary wrote: »The point here is no matter what I am converting it to, only my original dollar bill is doing any work (Has any actual buying power).
Repeat repeat repeat.
The real-life money I spent on the game when I first started went to buying Super Inventory Stones for my girlfriend and I as well as some vanity fashion items. None of the stuff I bought with that money was ever re-sold for a profit (or even a loss for that matter).
So what do I mean when I say the bias is towards coins? I mean that at the moment, Gold is under-valued, even at ~365k. Gold is actually worth more like ~450k. It's not usually like this though. Most of the time the cost of Gold is slightly higher, or maybe break-even with what you can get for it. Events like the Battle Pet Pack sale, Jolly Jones, and this one are exceptions, however.
Yup, you're right. Which is why I keep advising people to play the market themselves, force competition, and put people like me out of business. But people would rather QQ than shop around.MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »"Playing the market" can only work for a small minority of greedy speculators since in order to make a profit someone else needs to take a loss.
People want to spend their money the instant they get it, and they want to sell their stuff the instant they need money. I'd rather take the time to get the best deal. If that's "greed", I'm guilty, but I don't feel guilty.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »Ever noticed how there's always people whose awesomeness and uberness allows them to simply deal with whatever troubles other players have as if they were nothing more complicated than slaying a low level mob?
"Playing the market" can only work for a small minority of greedy speculators since in order to make a profit someone else needs to take a loss.
Edit; And to the people playing for fun, you apparently believe neither skill nor effort should be rewarded in a game.
And words of another Veno about how "charms aren't needed". You're right, veno's don't need charms, they just need a gold meatball and a nix. Oh, right... Those come from cash shop too. No wonder you aren't upset over this, you probably already have yours. Hate to break it to you, but skill doesn't amount to very much. A BM in white 1*, non-sharded, non-upgraded gear wouldn't stand a chance against a BM of similar level in mostly 3*, gold or green gear. So long as you have some idea how to play your class, what it really comes down to is equipment and luck.
Talk to a cleric some time. You can't heal for a higher TT run using pots, apothecary items, or anything else since any action breaks the bubble, and the moment the bubble is down, the party dies. The only thing that allows a cleric to maintain a bubble for the duration of a boss (30-50 mins) is a charm. As many bosses hit harder than you can heal with Ironheart Blessing, Have AoEs that can kill a non-bubbled party in 1 hit, there isn't even an alternative to using a bubble. The game was designed around this sort of setup. By removing, or making far too costly, something which is necessary to do these things, you essentially make these areas entirely the realm of people who can buy those things directly. Even before, clerics were not exactly one of the richer classes.0 -
The only thing that allows a cleric to maintain a bubble for the duration of a boss (30-50 mins) is a charm and sesames. classes.
fixed that for youRainbowvidel - Sanctuary wrote: »I could care less about the so-called "ecomony". It's just a game! I play for fun, not for vanity or to reach some form of symbol status. Most of you take video games so freakin seriously...... grow up.
Looking beyond the economy, I guess you must enjoy being handed everything to you on a silver platter, if you are gold charger that is. You're probably the type of person to type in "Power Overwhelming" before the game even starts. And if you don't charge gold, wait till you get higher and see how everyone and their mother is better than you in every way, no matter how hard you try. for now shut your ignorant lowbie mouth0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »Well, no, because my initial grinding when I was level 15 is what's still doing all the work. I used that money to buy and sell Dull Claws, and then used that to buy and sell Honey Juice. After that I started buying Gold from the Auction House and reselling on-sale Cash Shop items after the sales were over.
Please read more carefully:Falls - Sanctuary wrote: »The only way it would be balanced towards coin, is if the coin had value independent of the dollar. People can in fact grind for coin, and farm mines and herbs for coin (Otherwise known as doing work for the Coin). These are the only activities that give coin any value beyond simply being a fake currency that we need to convert our money to use in an artificial economy (A balance that was in fact shattered with the introduction of Coin Boxes, and completely destroyed with Anniversary Boxes). To further compound the problem, the only NPCs one needs to spend coin on a regular basis on, are the Teleporters and the Skill Masters (Maybe the Apothecaries if Charms become a thing of the past). This means that anything else purchase-able is dependent on the amount of available Gold on the server. (Many TT Items/Rebirth/Cube are also dependent on Gold, for the Gold Charms needed to sustain the Boss AoEs and the like.)
LOL, I liked the way you were grinding for coin at Level 15, when you didn't need gold for any of the activities I previously mentioned (Because the game was so easy.) Not to mention at that time your coin had at least four times its buying power (Even more when I was Level 15).
The point is that the balance is broken. (Read above quoted paragraph.)0 -
And words of another Veno about how "charms aren't needed". You're right, veno's don't need charms, they just need a gold meatball and a nix. Oh, right... Those come from cash shop too. No wonder you aren't upset over this, you probably already have yours. Hate to break it to you, but skill doesn't amount to very much. A BM in white 1*, non-sharded, non-upgraded gear wouldn't stand a chance against a BM of similar level in mostly 3*, gold or green gear. So long as you have some idea how to play your class, what it really comes down to is equipment and luck.
Talk to a cleric some time. You can't heal for a higher TT run using pots, apothecary items, or anything else since any action breaks the bubble, and the moment the bubble is down, the party dies. The only thing that allows a cleric to maintain a bubble for the duration of a boss (30-50 mins) is a charm. As many bosses hit harder than you can heal with Ironheart Blessing, Have AoEs that can kill a non-bubbled party in 1 hit, there isn't even an alternative to using a bubble. The game was designed around this sort of setup. By removing, or making far too costly, something which is necessary to do these things, you essentially make these areas entirely the realm of people who can buy those things directly. Even before, clerics were not exactly one of the richer classes.
LOL, that was so random. I AGREE with you, my point was that you can't just play for "fun" and ignore the economy... This game has gotten to the point it's almost like gold farming (considered a cheat in any other mmo) is encouraged. Since gold now buys everything (xp, uber gear, etc.) it really has become a legit way to beat the system which means anyone now putting large amounts of time/effort in to the game is really just wasting their resources... Yea, you can play minesweeper just for fun too, you know. The point in an rpg is to acomplish long term objectives, complex goals, success derived from interaction with other players. If just "fun" is all you want then any repetitive grind with a chatroom is all you really need...0 -
I did read your argument, but what I'm saying is that I'm looking at things differently than you are.Falls - Sanctuary wrote: »Please read more carefully:
For example, you say that the value of coin was shattered when the coin boxes came out and that it continues to be shattered by the current sale. OK, I can see your perspective and I can respect it.
But my perspective is different. When the coin boxes came out so did Jolly Jones, and any and all coin I had instantly became something far more valuable because it meant I could use it to earn an instant profit. In fact, I liquidated my stocks of cash shop items at a loss when Jolly Jones started, because I could see that coin=coin*1.2 every time I went through a Jolly Jones buy/sell cycle.
Now my perspective is from 1 month from now, when the sale is over and Gold drops back down to ~175k. From that perspective, I don't see my coin as having dropped in value in the current sale either. I see that thanks to the sale, my coin=coin*1.2 once again, which is why I'm turning that buy/sell crank again. When the sale ends, Gold prices will go back down, and I'll have a whole bunch more coin than I started the sale with.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »at the moment, Gold is under-valued, even at ~365k. Gold is actually worth more like ~450k. It's not usually like this though. Most of the time the cost of Gold is slightly higher, or maybe break-even with what you can get for it. Events like the Battle Pet Pack sale, Jolly Jones, and this one are exceptions, however.
how do you figure gold is under valued? and worth slightly more "most of the time"? meaning when there are no events?0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »When the sale ends, Gold prices will go back down, and I'll have a whole bunch more coin than I started the sale with.
The "sale" will never end.0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »I did read your argument, but what I'm saying is that I'm looking at things differently than you are.
For example, you say that the value of coin was shattered when the coin boxes came out and that it continues to be shattered by the current sale. OK, I can see your perspective and I can respect it.
But my perspective is different. When the coin boxes came out so did Jolly Jones, and any and all coin I had instantly became something far more valuable because it meant I could use it to earn an instant profit. In fact, I liquidated my stocks of cash shop items at a loss when Jolly Jones started, because I could see that coin=coin*1.2 every time I went through a Jolly Jones buy/sell cycle.
Yeah, and the key question is where is Jolly Jones to make good use of my coins now?
Well its not really a matter of perspective. Its basic Macroeconomics Chapter 1, and let me dig out my textbook:
Think of the PWI economy as a bathtub.
The total amount of water in that bathtub is called the stock.
The amount entering and leaving said bathtub are the flows. It enters through the faucet and leaves through the "sink" (A popular term).
In our PWI Bathtub we have 2 types of water. Coin colored water, and Gold colored water. There is also a balance between the two types of water determined by the faucets that are being turned on at different times. The flows in this case as I discussed before were in game work for Coin and real life work for Gold. People determine for themselves when they trade what the value of real life work is compared to the value of in game work. There are different uses for both in game and real life work currency.
Now, the reason the balance is shattered, is because the developers have decided to sell what once represented in game work (Coins) directly for real life work (Gold) without anyone actually working to add the value of in game work to said coins. To put it into real life terms, they literally counterfeited Coins. They circulated Coins into the artificial PW economy that had no work value behind them. No work was done to gather these coins. When that happens in large numbers, the currency becomes devalued (Hence why Gold is worth more and more relative to coins). To compound the problem, the uses for in game coin (sinks) decrease as you level up (Past level 15 b:chuckle).
So now you have a bathtub with PWI turning on their own coin water hose in addition to the regular coin faucet, and fewer and fewer sinks in which coin can drain. The stock of Gold is relatively stable if maybe a bit higher (I don't think people are spending any more money necessarily). So what happens is that the amount of coins relative to the amount of gold continues to increase with no end. (Hyperinflation)
The peasants without direct access to Gold are drowning in their Coins. And without a real coin sink there is no way to save them.
So once again, where is Jolly Jones the Lifesaver now?0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »I did read your argument, but what I'm saying is that I'm looking at things differently than you are.
For example, you say that the value of coin was shattered when the coin boxes came out and that it continues to be shattered by the current sale. OK, I can see your perspective and I can respect it.
But my perspective is different. When the coin boxes came out so did Jolly Jones, and any and all coin I had instantly became something far more valuable because it meant I could use it to earn an instant profit. In fact, I liquidated my stocks of cash shop items at a loss when Jolly Jones started, because I could see that coin=coin*1.2 every time I went through a Jolly Jones buy/sell cycle.
Now my perspective is from 1 month from now, when the sale is over and Gold drops back down to ~175k. From that perspective, I don't see my coin as having dropped in value in the current sale either. I see that thanks to the sale, my coin=coin*1.2 once again, which is why I'm turning that buy/sell crank again. When the sale ends, Gold prices will go back down, and I'll have a whole bunch more coin than I started the sale with.
This guy must be one of Obama's top economists. Explains so much.0 -
Yeah, when there are no events it's really not worth buying/selling Gold. You can make a tiny profit, but less than you would just buying/selling in-game items.Vinat - Sanctuary wrote: »how do you figure gold is under valued? and worth slightly more "most of the time"? meaning when there are no events?
Oh crud, I totally forgot about that! You're right, of course, which means I'm screwed! b:shockedMANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »The "sale" will never end.
That's a good point, but it does assume that coin-boxes required no in-game effort to obtain, which they did.Falls - Sanctuary wrote: »Now, the reason the balance is shattered, is because the developers have decided to sell what once represented in game work (Coins) directly for real life work (Gold) without anyone actually working to add the value of in game work to said coins. To put it into real life terms, they literally counterfeited Coins.
The current 2 Best Luck = 10million requires no such work, but it's far, far rarer than the coin boxes.
Personally, I've bought 16 Gold so far at ~360k each, which means I've sunk ~115k from the economy during the sale. Now, it's entirely possible that that I'll end up getting a 10million card before the event is over, so perhaps I will end up putting more coins in than I take out, but at the moment I've been a coin sink.Falls - Sanctuary wrote: »So what happens is that the amount of coins relative to the amount of gold continues to increase with no end. (Hyperinflation)
The peasants without direct access to Gold are drowning in their Coins. And without a real coin sink there is no way to save them.
Ultimately, I'd have to see the actual numbers of who's got what, but since I'm not a GM I don't have that info. I do, however, tend to be skeptical of most of the economic speculation I read on the forums, simply because so many people keep saying that only cash players (which I am not) can compete now. Maybe you do indeed have some valid arguments that will be proven correct, but I'll have to wait and see.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
also one of the problems is people are getting greedy and raising the prices of the gold in auction because one thing in boutique is worth that so it then decreases the value of the coins compared to the gold because it takes more coins to equal one gold so if people would stop getting greedy and raising prices on gold everyone could have a nice amount of coins and gold but the main issue is people will be greedy and lazy and will not want to work for the money that they get so they raise prices instead of working/grinding more so really i wish that the people who work for their money would stop quiting and start selling for lower prices than the others cause then the greedy ones would have to lower the prices cause no one is going to pay more for something they can buy for less but the issue with that is not enough people will start selling at low prices because yet again greed becomes an issue people want money and they want it fast but if they stopped for a second to realize that if coins were worth more they would have more money with less coins for example if the prices weren't inflated 100k coins=1 gold and with inflated prices its more like 300-450k=1 gold
if prices went lower you would need less money to buy stuff and grinding would be more efficient that way because then you would have to grind less for money or gold and exp. if you use training eso's because it would take less coins to buy gold for the training eso's so really everyone would be better off if people would just lower their prices0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »Personally, I've bought 16 Gold so far at ~360k each, which means I've sunk ~115k from the economy during the sale. Now, it's entirely possible that that I'll end up getting a 10million card before the event is over, so perhaps I will end up putting more coins in than I take out, but at the moment I've been a coin sink.
Ultimately, I'd have to see the actual numbers of who's got what, but since I'm not a GM I don't have that info. I do, however, tend to be skeptical of most of the economic speculation I read on the forums, simply because so many people keep saying that only cash players (which I am not) can compete now. Maybe you do indeed have some valid arguments that will be proven correct, but I'll have to wait and see.
No that is a misunderstanding, you haven't sunk anything from the economy. Because you are part of the PWI economy, the coins you traded for gold are probably lying in someones Bank, they are their "savings" and still contribute to the total stock of coins in the economy. The only true coin sinks are ones that make the virtual coins go poof (NPCs). Hence, why the economy needs more coin sinks (Where is Jolly Jones? ;D).
And you don't need to see the numbers, it is clear as day that hyperinflation is rampant in the servers, just look at the AH. See, economists use clever tools like that to determine the overall health of the economy without having to calculate every little thing (Which is why the Stock Market Values matter IRL).0 -
Falls - Sanctuary wrote: »No that is a misunderstanding, you haven't sunk anything from the economy. Because you are part of the PWI economy, the coins you traded for gold are probably lying in someones Bank, they are their "savings" and still contribute to the total stock of coins in the economy. The only true coin sinks are ones that make the virtual coins go poof (NPCs). Hence, why the economy needs more coin sinks (Where is Jolly Jones? ;D).
And you don't need to see the numbers, it is clear as day that hyperinflation is rampant in the servers, just look at the AH. See, economists use clever tools like that to determine the overall health of the economy without having to calculate every little thing (Which is why the Stock Market Values matter IRL).
I think he meant total for the AH fee which is actually a coin sink, on the whole i think you're right tho.0 -
MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »I think he meant total for the AH fee which is actually a coin sink, on the whole i think you're right tho.
Oh, Right-O xD.
On that note AH Fees are not a significant Coin Sink. My Indicator: Current Gold Value0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »Yeah, when there are no events it's really not worth buying/selling Gold. You can make a tiny profit, but less than you would just buying/selling in-game items.
you kinda contradicted yourself.. gold is "worth more" when theres no event because it is less profitable than it would be during an event?
that makes no sense
and for falls.. you said something like it doesnt seem like ppl are buying more gold.. clearly some people are, otherwise the ah would be empty and nobody would be buying any boxes. the boxes are a gold sink, and potentially a coin.. idk the word.. coin adder. and i say potentially bcuz the 10 mil coin box is in no way a guranteed thing, and there are so many other things to get directly from the box that dont create raw coin. just about anything else you get from the box has the potential to earn some coin, but thats just an issue of coin changing hands, not just magically appearing. tho still, i would say that the 10 mil boxes are probably what's being produced the most of everything. best luck tokens are popping out like crazy.
but thats what the entire summer has been.. a giant gold sink.0 -
Yes the economy is currently out of ballance. Yes this affects everybody in different ways, most in a negative way I agree. I just want to point out that while we all QQ about how bad things are with the economy there is another point of view alltogether that is much more important than that. In the past few days (this is posted 3 days after the Aniversary event started) PWI made more money than possibly ever since its inception. I have friends who spent thousands of dollars on this event aready I have spent only a hundred myself. If you put that next to a few unhappy economy watchers and some really dissapointed high level players wich one do you think weighs more in PWI's corporate mind?. My words of advice, play the game as long as you're having fun, when the fun stops, stop playing.0
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