Teamwork Notes - Skill and Class Suggestions

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary · August 2009

Note from tank to clerics, certain bosses aoe when you fire long range at them. Don't fire spells, even if the tank is doing ok.

I got wiped by stormhorn today cause there were two clerics in the party I was helping... and one decided to spam magic, repeatedly, killing off both clerics and catching me off guard with no heal and killing me too (for shame, yes I know most BM's solo it but beside the point)
Same thing in fb 39 a few times, the wizzy or cleric insists on using magic and the rest of the lowbie squad ends up tanking aoe's.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · August 2009

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

I got wiped by stormhorn today cause there were two clerics in the party I was helping...

Cool! Thanks for the warning of the next boss that does what Farren does.

And for farren, you can spam spells at him, if you are absolutely certain that you are out of range, then it won't trigger his AOE. This being half of how we veno's can solo him.

But yeah, don't switch to your stronger not-yet-lvl-10 spells, they won't have the range and bad things happen.

Ninnuam - Sanctuary · August 2009

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Note from tank to clerics, certain bosses aoe when you fire long range at them. Don't fire spells, even if the tank is doing ok.

I got wiped by stormhorn today cause there were two clerics in the party I was helping... and one decided to spam magic, repeatedly, killing off both clerics and catching me off guard with no heal and killing me too (for shame, yes I know most BM's solo it but beside the point)
Same thing in fb 39 a few times, the wizzy or cleric insists on using magic and the rest of the lowbie squad ends up tanking aoe's.

You're a bit off here. If a boss has an aoe, he's going to use it regardless of where from or what you pummel them with. That being said, some mobs (bosses included) are ranged by default and just spam aoes constantly. Having a melee tank will cut down the aoes by a considerable amount however, as they'll spend more time meleeing the tank. I'm guessing what happened in your case is that the cleric stole main aggro from you, which is what resulted in the aoe spam.

Same with farren in fb39. His default attack is spamming the physical aoe. If you get a melee player to tank him, he'll only fire off the aoe once in a while.
If a ranged player steals aggro from you, the boss will turn to the said ranged player, and thus start spamming aoes again since the ranged player obviously isn't in the melee range. As for the lowbie members in squad, they shouldn't be tanking hits, they should be watching from a safe distance. If the boss moves, they should too.

I'd say your problem is easily loosing aggro to archers, wizzies and clerics. If you know you'll be fighting a ranged boss without a barb and that you have to tank, warn them to watch the aggro in order to cut down on the amount of aoes. Telling them not to attack whatsoever is downright stupid though.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · August 2009

That's... I'm pretty sure that's just not true.

I can stand near farren with my pet tanking him, and he just sits there and smacks my pet.

Then I cast on him, and he retaliates by throwing a white semi-circle at everyone in range (including, amusingly, the pillar)
Edit: To be clear, not an aggro grabbing cast, just one poke after a good chunk of tanking.

Stop casting, no more white thingies.

His blue worm thingy that slows channel speed, I've not figured out what causes that. It might be that when he's going to do an AOE he just sometime does that one.

Either way, it's simplest to just stand out of range.

Vellamo - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Updated.

Would appreciate comments from wizards, archers, and BMs. Since I do not play these classes I don't really know what issues they may have. Whats the best way to coordinate with you? When do you need sparks, or what buffs do you like or don't like?

Centetric - Lost City · August 2009

OMFG THIS SOOOOOOOOOOOO GOOD. it may be common sense but it helps me remember wat to do XD .

*adds to bookmark*

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver · August 2009

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'll add to that. If the Venomancer gets hit by the monster they pulled? Don't heal that.

Unless the barbarian is asleep, it will be just the one hit and the veno can heal that themselves (or ignore it)

Even if the barbarian IS asleep, then it's better for the veno to die than for the cleric to die as well.

In fact, come to think of it:
Clerics? Early on in the game, when it legitimately is their fault:
Let the archers and wizards die if they pull aggro.
It's the only way they'll lean to stop doing it

Note from the Wizard to the tank
i cant help it if i steal aggro, if you see me stop attacking, doesnt mean i am being lazy, just trying to prevent a party wipe

General Note to All Wizards
1) When you steal aggro, use distance shrink in the direction of the tank
it should move you close to him or past him. Either way he can quickly grab aggro back

2) If your tank is lower level than you, it helps to wait 20 seconds before attacking and then alternating long casting skills. Alternating pyrogram and gush is the highest dps you can do. Try balancing it out with a few skills with long channeling

Note to Venos from Wizards
If you can pass me a spark, a wizard with chi is the best type of wizard

Note to Clerics from Wizards
Please use IronHeart to heal me, Wellspring quaff wont help if i still have the mob on me. Stack 3-4 of them and continue healing the main tank.

General Note to DDs
In TT 1-2, there is a boss called Dimentora. 10 minutes after summoning Davinci he summons someone called 007. When he is summoned aggro is reset so try to watch time and not attack when this happens

i think i got a bit

FitHitDShan - Sanctuary · August 2009

Archer to Tank - Okay, I'm holding off from attacking right at the start to give you a lead on agro. I'm stopping when I see a long run of crits to let you keep agro. What I can't do is know when you have missed a few times in a row (or, even worse, missed on a flesh ream or two). The flesh ream animation goes off whether you hit or not. Let us know if any of these things are happening so we know your hold on agro is slipping and we can back off the attack till you get a better hold.

KazumaSei - Dreamweaver · August 2009

didn't read past the OP, but i gotta say, if this isn't stickied, mods, please give it one!
(also, would be good idea to put a copy of it in the "Beginner" forum too)

many many props to Vellamo and everyone who contributed... this was a great idea

Katzyn - Sanctuary · August 2009

14. Note to All from Venos: Learn to understand luring. The primary function of a veno in party is to lure one mob out of a pack so the party can deal with them safely. To do this we send our pet, hit one mob, stow pet, and run back. Other members should be behind luring veno until we stow pet and retreat. Then the tankers may take lead to intercept the mob. A good tanker intercepts the mob before it can hit the veno, yet a safe distance from the rest of pack. Also, know the mob. Some mobs will run. You don't want the mob running back into the pack. Good way to get a party wipe.

I ABSOLUTELY agree with this! I am a Veno, and when I have to work with other people, including other Venos, I expect them to know this, and some don't! It's very frustrating to have to try and save some silly BM, Archer, or Barb when they go diving into a pack of big bad mobs. I can only guess at how the cleric must feel, if there is one in said squad.

Starrr - Harshlands · August 2009

Vellamo - Heavens Tear wrote: »

7. Note to All from Hercs: After a lure I need time to rebuff. Veno will allow me to hit mob once then will rebuff. I have 3 buffs so this can take several seconds. If you attack b4 I have rebuffed you might steal agro. Best practice is to wait several seconds after a lure b4 attacking.

lure-unsummon-resummon-send in-rebuff

seriously you do not need to waste the time rebuffing first. mob boss or whatever it doesnt matter YOU CAN BUFF AT THE SAME TIME AS YOU SEND IN.

if a veno is tanking and cant survive 1 hit then get a different puller or a different tanker who can survive 1 hit. 99% of the time a decent veno can pull and pick up the mob without getting hit even once.

Vellamo - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Starrr - Harshlands wrote: »

lure-unsummon-resummon-send in-rebuff

seriously you do not need to waste the time rebuffing first. mob boss or whatever it doesnt matter YOU CAN BUFF AT THE SAME TIME AS YOU SEND IN.

if a veno is tanking and cant survive 1 hit then get a different puller or a different tanker who can survive 1 hit. 99% of the time a decent veno can pull and pick up the mob without getting hit even once.

My technique is more like lure-unsummon-resummon-send in-hit once-rebuff-resume hitting. I prefer to not take a hit while herc buffs, and if I send and buff on the way than the mob bypasses herc. If I have time to buff before intercepting I do it before sending herc. Naturally, many players want to dive in when they see herc hit. I prefer they wait for herc to rebuff. In parties that don't understand this I often resort to not rebuffing... which is fine... just means I gotta heal a bit more.

Darksorrow - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Note to Venos from Wizards
If you can pass me a spark, a wizard with chi is the best type of wizard

Note back to Wizard from Veno:
The Barb needs chi to help him keep aggro.
The Cleric needs sparks to put back up Blue ball often.
Lending Hand has a 60 second cooldown, you do the math.
Also, if i happen to not need to pass to the tank or cleric, & the sparks can go to DD, i earned the sparks, i'm going to use them for my own DD purposes. BMs, Archers, Wizards, all want chi to DD, but they dont have any more priority then i do for myself.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · August 2009

Vellamo - Heavens Tear wrote: »

6. Note to All from Clerics: Save me. Clerics are squishy. If we grab agro from a sneaky mob we may run into party. Our hope is that the party is watching and will attack the mob. Help us out. We can heal you if you attack it but we can't heal anyone if we are running in circles.

LOL i thought this was cute.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Note from Archers to All: Against bosses and mobs with high HP (like TT dragons), good archers will use Sharpened Tooth Arrow on them. This attack reduces max HP by 2.5-16%, depending on level. Any resources for damage dealing attacks (from others) that occured beforehand is thus wasted (mana, spark, genie resources, etc.). If the attack had another effect, like stun or slow, then fine. But if you are just dealing damage, then wait until after HP debuff icon appears before unloading all of your awesome damage dealing attacks. Well, you could not wait if you are impatient, but it will have no effect.

Note from DDs to Cleric: If we steal aggro, do not heal us, and simply let us die. If the DD does not know what she is doing, then she had it coming anyways. If the DD *does* know what she is doing, then she can prevent her own death. Just do not let up the healing on the tank, and only resurrect us if you can spare it.

Explanation: it is a necessary evil for DDs to "test the waters" to see how much damage they can dole out. Simply looking at the level of the tank is not enough. My guildmate Barbarian 8 levels below me can hold aggro even while I am Sparking and using Genie skills, but I have also met Barbarians 5 levels above me who cannot hold aggro even if I take off my rings and -Interval gear. DDs simply cannot predict who is good and who is not; however, we need to know if we can Spark or if we have to take off our Rings. Thus, DDs will often initially let loose with as much damage as possible to see how much they can dish out. If they draw aggro, they should already have a plan to not die. If they do die, they had it coming.

This is especially important against bosses like Soulbanisher, which has an AoE attack that deals more damage as time progresses. It is critical that the DDs deal as much damage as possible, but no more. Thus, when fighting earlier bosses, DDs will experiment with how much damage they can deal out.

Can the Barbarians give us a tip on how to handle the case when the Barb goes after multiple targets? Somtimes, I see the Barbarian going after 2 or 3 TT mobs, most likely to hold aggro on all. How should everyone else proceed? Assist Attack only works on the current target, and if the Barb switches, aggro might be stolen.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · August 2009

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Can the Barbarians give us a tip on how to handle the case when the Barb goes after multiple targets? Somtimes, I see the Barbarian going after 2 or 3 TT mobs, most likely to hold aggro on all. How should everyone else proceed? Assist Attack only works on the current target, and if the Barb switches, aggro might be stolen.

Not a barbarian - but you can target the main tank and then assist attack again, to see if they have switched.

TheGoliath - Heavens Tear · August 2009

multiple mobs being lured head to the party

if u don't have a bm the barb have to go in the middle of them and use roar to aggro them (roar is not capable of "holding" aggro but it's good to save party aniway)... the barb should have reflect wich will help holding aggro...

now.. a good party will have DDs that use assist attack on the barb so the tank can just flesh realm that mob till it die then pass to the next mob until the group of mob is done

if DDs are stupid a barb usually have to spam flesh realm on each mob.. it takes a long time and the DDs that are actually doing their job and they are hitting the first mob the tank was flesh reaming should stop and analize the situation

Ninnuam - Sanctuary · August 2009

Yeh just keep an eye out for the flesh ream icon. If you don't see it, it's a good idea to assist attack the barb again.

TheGoliath - Heavens Tear · August 2009

also they should mind that is harder for a barb to hold aggro on mobs than bosses

Feiric - Harshlands · August 2009

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Note from the Wizard to the tank
i cant help it if i steal aggro, if you see me stop attacking, doesnt mean i am being lazy, just trying to prevent a party wipe

General Note to All Wizards
1) When you steal aggro, use distance shrink in the direction of the tank
it should move you close to him or past him. Either way he can quickly grab aggro back

2) If your tank is lower level than you, it helps to wait 20 seconds before attacking and then alternating long casting skills. Alternating pyrogram and gush is the highest dps you can do. Try balancing it out with a few skills with long channeling

Note to Venos from Wizards
If you can pass me a spark, a wizard with chi is the best type of wizard

Note to Clerics from Wizards
Please use IronHeart to heal me, Wellspring quaff wont help if i still have the mob on me. Stack 3-4 of them and continue healing the main tank.

General Note to DDs
In TT 1-2, there is a boss called Dimentora. 10 minutes after summoning Davinci he summons someone called 007. When he is summoned aggro is reset so try to watch time and not attack when this happens

i think i got a bit

This is really good.

I just want to add a method I use to be a non-aggro DD that always works. Count "1 .... 2 .... cast ... 1 ... 2 ... cast." If you aren't sure how much damage you can dish out without **** things up, this is a good DD method to fall back on, in my experience. Patient casting is kind of weird at first, because you're use to killing as quick as you can. Just something to keep in mind.

ChaoticEnvy - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Note to all from Tanks:

The new Dominace Blessing recieved in Instances is "optional" if you find it is pulling agro from the tank do not use it

Amarta - Sanctuary · August 2009

Note to Barbs from BMs:

In the event you are facing a boss with an interruptable channeling spell (i.e. General Wurlord) and you cannot cancel every spell, ask the BM in your party (if they have Shadowless Kick) to alternate spell cancels. Keep in mind Shadowless has a 12 second cooldown (10 seconds with Sage skill.)

TheGoliath - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Amarta - Sanctuary wrote: »

Note to Barbs from BMs:

In the event you are facing a boss with an interruptable channeling spell (i.e. General Wurlord) and you cannot cancel every spell, ask the BM in your party (if they have Shadowless Kick) to alternate spell cancels. Keep in mind Shadowless has a 12 second cooldown (10 seconds with Sage skill.)

kinda useless, a good barb always have alacrity ready for cancel...
the problem is that sometimes cuz of the bad accuracy u may miss alacrity and therefore not cancel the enemy channeling.. but right when u see the "miss" word come out it's already too late to ask the bm to cancel

I prefere to let the bm spam his skills like myriad or glacial or the flame dragon

Hazardus - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Notes from a barb to:

Tanks: In case of multiple mobs, use roar or any aoe genie skills to grab their attention. If th party is dumb enough to not assist attack you, you will need to fleshream each one. Roar wont hold anything more than a clerics healing aggro.

Barbs, if you are in a party and you are not the primary tank, you can be of more use in tigerform than as humanoid. Even in humanoid your damage is miserable compared to a wizzie, archer or even a venos pet against '?' bosses.

Stay in tigerform and keep the finger of the fleshream (its hard I know, but do it b:chuckle). As a tiger you can interrupt casting, debuff to reduce attacks by 50% and you have the strongest sustainable physical debuff with devour (50% defense reduction for 10 seconds, with a 6 second cooldown).

DDs: In case of multiple mobs, use assist attack. Trust me it is faster to kill them one at a time with everyone attacking and the barb flesh reaming, than doing half baked attacks on all of them and making the barb burn up all his chi with repeated flesh reams on multiple mobs.
If you do pull aggro, stop attacking!!! The barb can regain aggro much faster if you stop.

At bosses a secondary yet important task of the barb is to interrupt boss casting. This is essential not only for the health of the barb and therefore the party, but also for the barb to regenerate the all vital chi, without which a barb cant hold aggro.

Clerics: when a DD pulls aggro from a tank, don't switch to healing the DD. If the DD dies, guess who the boss is coming after now? Maybe one or two quick IHs but no more. The tank is trying to regain aggro.

Venos: Do not go putting bramble hood on everybody in the party. It makes it that much harder for the barb to regain aggro. Clerics should really never be brambled. The only aggro a cleric should draw is the healing aggro which can be overcome by the slightest tickle to the mob.
Trust me, no one has more use for chi than a barb. Especially if you have a lower level barb who has to spam fleshream like crazy only to maintain aggro.
If someone dies from an aoe, then the cleric can rez them, only if the barb has enough chi to use invoke and still keep on a stream of fleshream.

Koltrast - Sanctuary · August 2009

Note to venos from squishies:
Please don't automatically bramble us in dungeons. Bramble generates aggro, and the last thing an archer or cleric needs if they've pulled a mob is more aggro, it makes it harder to hand the mob off to the tank, even if we stop attacking/healing. In some dungeons it's ok, but it's better to just ask who wants a bramble.
Do, on the other hand, bramble the tank, and keep 'em that way, it helps them hold aggro.

TheGoliath - Heavens Tear · August 2009

against some bosses all team should have bramble

Koltrast - Sanctuary · August 2009

TheGoliath - Heavens Tear wrote: »

against some bosses all team should have bramble

S'why I said it's ok in some dungeons, but to just ask first

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Note from high-level DDs to low-level DDs:

Yes, we recognize the irony that despite being a Damage Dealing class, you cannot deal max damage when in a squad. This is not a failure on your team's part, but, instead, it is an indication of your high levels of awesomeness. In fact, you are so awesome that your teammates simply cannot comprehend your magnificence. While you would normally expect your teammates to raise their hands to the sky and sing praises like "Wow, you are so awesome!", instead they lay on the ground prone while staring at the sky shouting, "Stop stealing aggro, *&@#%!!"

Thus, it is necessary for you to tone down your levels of awesomeness in order for you to function properly within a squad. But take heart! After you reach the 60s or 70s, some of your peers will have reached a level of awesomeness compareable to your own. So while the other classes are basking in their newfound glory, you can be content knowing that you were always this awesome: the rest of PWI had to catch up to you.

brithius · August 2009

As a cleric, I ask full parties if anyone with a spare second in battle can let me know how much hp the mob has (assuming it's a big mob with lots of hp). This helps me decide how to stagger my heals, whether it's worth potting, whether it's worth rebuffing the entire party or just the tank and also just generally how it's going...

My focus is on the tank, I'm the only one in the party who has no idea if we're fighting a losing battle 'cause I can't see the boss's health bar... the occasional "25 left" or "25 gone" is a great help... especially to the staggered heals... mp pots and charms are expensive...

Also, in the mid levels (level 40ish) we're like most classes and at our poorest, especially if we're saving for that all important Perfect Iron Hammer... on important raids, we might ask to meditate for just a teeeeny bit to save some of our pots for the big, bad, scary boss...

What else... oh if you have a charm (before the time everyone has one)... letting us know is handy but not neccesary... the key point is, it's easier to save your charm if we treat "50%" as dead instead of "0%"... You might say "Keep me at 100% and I'll be happy!" but... see the 40-50 range and remember that yes... I have almost 5000 mp, but my best heals can use up 400mp and they don't stack... If your charm ticks don't hate us... we tried.

More from the early levels... the first time we ever heal a barb, we'll mess it up

. Sad but true, we suddenly realise that a heal that heals -us- to full health does very little to your huge health bar, so we might leave it a little late to heal you... again... forgive us... b:shocked

Oh and you -want- us to survive... we can ress you and you won't have to wait for us to travel all the way back from town. In later levels we might be carrying GAs and ress scrolls, to rise up from the ashes fighting-fit again, but "we... are... poor".

Oh and... we're not always that good at noticing when we're dying... I find during what's looking like a party wipe, I'm staring intently at the health bars trying to keep everyone alive... but my health is waaaaaay up there and I rarely notice it dropping...

We're happy to tank if we can, but we'd rather do it with another cleric, because yes... we can heal ourselves... but... unless you've been a cleric... you have no idea how easy it is to die because your heals were interrupted... I died to Razorjaw more than once because bad luck meant I hit him once and his fast attacks interrupted every single heal I tried... pots have recharge time and I died.

I think I just whined about being a cleric for an entire post... but it's the only class I -really- know...

Isala - Sanctuary · August 2009

brithius wrote: »

\Oh and... we're not always that good at noticing when we're dying... I find during what's looking like a party wipe, I'm staring intently at the health bars trying to keep everyone alive... but my health is waaaaaay up there and I rarely notice it dropping...

Click the HP bar on your avatar. Problem solved.

Teamwork Notes - Skill and Class Suggestions

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