Venomancer "Paradox"

geisterkatze
geisterkatze Posts: 48 Arc User
edited August 2009 in Venomancer
Well, I admit that the title is a little bit provocativ.b:surrender

But there is something which makes me wonder about the venomancer class in general. At the moment I would say that venomancer are "just" another wizard class with a pet. Yes, I know that I left out our heavy armour fox fighters, but let's put that aside for the moment and let's only talk about the arcane variant of the venomancer.
So it is the pet that sets us apart from the human wizard or the elven cleric. At the moment we can heal our pets, which is absolutely fantastic, but otherwise we have no abilities to improve our dear pets in the form of a buf, do we?
We have a ton of attack spells but the wizard and the cleric have that too. Don't get me wrong, I think we certainly need one or two attack spells but so many? I would gladly give up one or two to have a spell to help my pet. I think it is a pity that the chance to distinquish the venomancer from the other spell caster a little bit more was forfeit.
Post edited by geisterkatze on
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Comments

  • Arshies - Sanctuary
    Arshies - Sanctuary Posts: 666 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    U CANT buff your pet's but some skills are a pet buff, Herc and Nix comes with some of they.

    Idk what level are u now but u must check which skills u want learn and maxed it.

    Skill's are differents and not all of they for attack u can find more infor about it here:
    http://www.ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Arshies - Sanctuary
  • geisterkatze
    geisterkatze Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Arshies - Sanctuary wrote: »
    U CANT buff your pet's

    And that was what my post was about.
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    It would require a major rebalancing, but yeah, it would be kinda thematically nicer if some of the 'debuff the monster' skills were turned into 'buff the pet' skills.

    Or heck, even if it was just 'give the pet this, which when the pet hits will debuff the monster'

    No idea how to square that with having to turn into a fox, first.
  • Arshies - Sanctuary
    Arshies - Sanctuary Posts: 666 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    geisterkatze wrote: »
    And that was what my post was about.

    And like I post before some skills are buff for your pet's ................
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Arshies - Sanctuary
  • geisterkatze
    geisterkatze Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Arshies - Sanctuary wrote: »
    And like I post before some skills are buff for your pet's ................

    Do you mean pet skills? If so, then you have missed my point. If there is a venomancer skill/spell which can give a pet a buff please tell me the name of it. But if I read your post right then there is none.
  • Arshies - Sanctuary
    Arshies - Sanctuary Posts: 666 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    The reason cuz venos hasn't buff skills for pet's is cuz pet's got buff skills thats all
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Arshies - Sanctuary
  • OrangeBite - Dreamweaver
    OrangeBite - Dreamweaver Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    I think this might be fun ^^
    I mean if you have the pet buffs, you can easily buff any pet you tame and that will surely be more fun taming new beasts.
    The pet skills as pet buffs will belong to one pet, and you cannot use the pet buffs on other pets you have, so that's the difference.

    I've played pet classes in other games, but one game's pet class had all sorts of pet buffs, temporary ones, long term ones, etc. She was extremely squishy herself though...
  • woyaa
    woyaa Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    I have a better Idea: Why don't we incorperate the Pet and the Veno into one?
    Oh no wait, we already got fox form for that.
    I managed to hit level 104 on a X5 rates server!
    b:cute
    How you level 101's on X1 can stand it, I don't know b:shocked
    Woyaa|Level 104|Venomancer|Heaven|Heavy Fox
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  • geisterkatze
    geisterkatze Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    woyaa wrote: »
    I have a better Idea: Why don't we incorperate the Pet and the Veno into one?
    Oh no wait, we already got fox form for that.

    Pardon, but what do you want tell us? b:surrender
  • Nehemiah - Harshlands
    Nehemiah - Harshlands Posts: 79 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    well it would be nice if pets could just get buffs in general, like when a cleric buffs, the pet gets em too, if we could buff reflect we could get the blessing of the pack on our hercs instead of having a spot used for reflect, we could also bramble hood em and they would be great. more hp and reflect with a tough+bigger reflect for emergencies, with them having cleric buffs for better stats.
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Nehemiah - Harshlands wrote: »
    well it would be nice if pets could just get buffs in general, like when a cleric buffs, the pet gets em too, if we could buff reflect we could get the blessing of the pack on our hercs instead of having a spot used for reflect, we could also bramble hood em and they would be great. more hp and reflect with a tough+bigger reflect for emergencies, with them having cleric buffs for better stats.

    And you think people complain about us now.... Imagen a herc, using his buffs, plus BM buffs... and Barb buffs... and Archer buffs.... or a phoenix...
    with Cleric buffs....
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • XHappyBunnyx - Sanctuary
    XHappyBunnyx - Sanctuary Posts: 683 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Imagen a herc, using his buffs, plus BM buffs... and Barb buffs... and Archer buffs.... or a phoenix...
    with Cleric buffs....

    hey i know this game, its called Rappelz.

    ...anyways..

    a Unity buff for venos could work.
    Increases Elemental Def 30% on both the pet and owner for 30 mins or something like that.
    not asking alot.
    Q - How to win on Perfect World?
    A - Throw money at it.
  • Reikara - Heavens Tear
    Reikara - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,321 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    I think venomancers already have enough as it is, adding pet buffs would only cause outrage and unbalance x.x;
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • geisterkatze
    geisterkatze Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Reikara - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I think venomancers already have enough as it is, adding pet buffs would only cause outrage and unbalance x.x;

    My point was not just to add something to the current skills but to change the way a Venomancer plays. Just adding something would certainly produce an inbalance. I would certainly like to see more venomancer skills/spells concerning the pet than attack spells, which are the domain of the wizard IMHO.
    At the moment it does not seem to be neccessary to increase the taming skill beyond level 1 for example. How about removing the possibility to buy skills for the pet and thereby increasing the desire to tame higher level mobs with better skills, which of course would need a higher taming skill? Maybe the growth of a pet should be adjusted to assist this as well.
  • turtlewax
    turtlewax Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Removing fire-power from the skillset is not going to improve balance either. Veno's are a long way from being wizards and have essentialy only one spammable damage spell.
  • geisterkatze
    geisterkatze Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    turtlewax wrote: »
    Removing fire-power from the skillset is not going to improve balance either. Veno's are a long way from being wizards and have essentialy only one spammable damage spell.

    Sorry, but my experience is different. Casting attack spells (three different kinds with different effects at the moment) is what I do most of the time. Just like a wizard. And it is damn effective, especially in conjunction with a tank pet. And I have already two other attack spells at level 1, that I'm not using and that I just purchased because they were necessary to get something on the skills tree. So it is actually 5(!) attack spells at level 41.
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Out of those 5:
    Venomous - Spam nuke.
    Ironwood - Recast doesn't allow spam.
    Blazing - Requires ~21 seconds (even more at higher levels) to be better damage than Venomous, eventually even a full 30 seconds doesn't let it equal venomous.
    Frost - Requires a spark for less damage than blazing.
    Noxious - AE, only good if it hits multiple mobs AND aggro can be maintained on those multiples. Channeling time makes it a poor choice on single targets.

    If you want to get into the other two:
    Lucky - Recast doesn't allow spam. Stun is high aggro. Strong nuke but sucks down mana, and aggro prevents using it much outside of having a barb tank, if you're arcane.
    Nova - Requires two sparks, you can't spam it.

    Having abilities and being able to spam them are different things. If you can remove aggro from being an issue there's 3 nukes available (4 on bosses, frost isn't a benefit to cast... pretty much ever). Out of those, Ironwood will use up 28.75% of your casting time, Lucky will use up 19.17% of your time, and Venomous will eat up the remaining 47.92%. That's with 0 channeling. As you get more channeling, you'll cut time off of all your spells which translates into more casts of venomous. If you have 50% channeling for example (30% and RB isn't too far fetched) you have Ironwood using up 15.50%, Lucky using 12.92%, and Venomous using 71.58% of the time.

    In short, venomous actually is our only damage spell we can spam.
  • geisterkatze
    geisterkatze Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Very nice overview of the spells, Brael, but the subject is not if we are able to spam all our attack spells but that we have so many attack spells and almost none concerning our pet. So in the end the arcane venomancer still plays like a wizard with a personal tank. We may not be able to spam as many attack spells as a wizard but for me this is only a minimal difference.
  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    @OP, well, you seem kinda eager to shoot down people who don't agree with your narrow view of what a veno is suposed to be... I certainly don't see things your way. There's debuffing (at the very least amp dmg), timing the use of pet skills and juggling attacks when in a boss fight, which sometimes we may even tank; I'm usually keeping track of 3-4 cooldowns whilst keeping an eye on the AoE. The reason we get our speed buff is cuz our role in squads is meant to be flexible; protecting the casters, nuking, tanking extra mobs, etc. I don't think buffing pets would really add to our role but, far from it, it would turn us into no more than just clerics for our pets, which i'm sad to say many venos already are. There's more to playing a veno than just spamming scarabs dude.
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    You just reminded me about how sad I get when I see veno's that not only don't amp, but don't even have it trained. Then again, I could make a whole list of things that other veno's do/don't do that makes me sad like not giving the tank reflect, not maxing befuddling mist, not making use of leech, and so on. Fox is still pretty useful even when arcane.
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Hmm. I do go fox for a quick amp/fuddle. Ampfuddle. That's a good new word.

    Not been bothering with leech cause, well, spark. And I admit to not having maxed my amp because I ran out of cash. I'll go fix that this week.

    It's not like I didn't already need millions of coins to level up my petskills. Grrr.

    But yeah, thematically? I think that it would be nice if we did more of our things with the pet acting them out, or something. No need even, really, to change the skills - just give some of the animations to the pet.
  • geisterkatze
    geisterkatze Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    @OP, well, you seem kinda eager to shoot down people who don't agree with your narrow view of what a veno is suposed to be...

    I would be very careful to judge anyone by just reading what they write in the forum. You don't know me at all. By the way the OP is me, and my nick is Geisterkatze.
    I'm not eager to shoot down anyone or anyone's oppinion. The reason why I answered quickly is that discussions like these tend develope totally away from the original subject. Believe me, I have quite some experience with forums.
    My "narrow" point of view is based on the skills we get at the moment. I know that there are different builds but skill wise we basically have the arcane tree and the fox tree, with another tree for personal protection, buffing, etc. As I have written in a previous post in this therad I was not considering the fox fighter at the moment.
    MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I certainly don't see things your way.

    That is your right. And believe it or not, I'm glad that not everyone shares my point of view because this gives me the opportunity to learn something as well.
    MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I don't think buffing pets would really add to our role but, far from it, it would turn us into no more than just clerics for our pets, which i'm sad to say many venos already are.

    But so far we can only heal and revive our pets. No removing negative effects, no heal over time, no additional protection from damage, ...
    MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    There's more to playing a veno than just spamming scarabs dude.

    That is certainly true, especially in boss fights, but in my limited experience (level 41) you still use mainly the attack spells to fight the normal mobs together with your pet. And in my observations in the game the majority of venomancers seem to do exactly this.
  • geisterkatze
    geisterkatze Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    You just reminded me about how sad I get when I see veno's that not only don't amp, but don't even have it trained. Then again, I could make a whole list of things that other veno's do/don't do that makes me sad like not giving the tank reflect, not maxing befuddling mist, not making use of leech, and so on. Fox is still pretty useful even when arcane.

    The reason may be that there isn't a good guide for these kind of builds in the stickies. As far as I know you can't cast attack spells while in fox form. So it is a little bit either fox form or arcane (attack spells). And switching back from the fox form costs mana.

    You see, we are already starting to move away from the original subject by discussing alternative builds. Don't get me wrong, this discussion is obviously needed, but could we please just discuss the pros and contras of having pet buffs instead of attack spells?
  • Reikara - Heavens Tear
    Reikara - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,321 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    If your point was about changing the way a venomancer plays, reffering to mage venomancers like someone else said; Fox form.

    It completely changes everything, almost a different class in it's own right. I even end up tanking bosses sometimes myself with a cleric healing. If that's not different I don't know what is.

    Pets can already buff themselves, so having the venomancer learning skills to buff their pets wouldn't be anything new, let alone it would be, actually overpowered. If your pet cannot tank a boss due to some sort of status effect you cannot cope with, hit up a barb and cleric. It's what they're designed for, not venomancers.

    The majority of venomancers who spam scarab skills to end game do it because they enjoy playing venomancers. If you don't, perhaps venomancer isn't right for you, or you could try a fox and mage mix. I know mage bores the **** out of me.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • geisterkatze
    geisterkatze Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    But yeah, thematically? I think that it would be nice if we did more of our things with the pet acting them out, or something.

    Interesting idea, some form of channeling our magic through the pet if I read your comment correctly.
  • turtlewax
    turtlewax Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    geisterkatze wrote: »
    Sorry, but my experience is different. Casting attack spells (three different kinds with different effects at the moment) is what I do most of the time. Just like a wizard.

    That would surprise me, the only attack-spell that can be spammed is Venomous Scarab. All others have long cooldowns, require chi, are ineffective or have a specialized side-effect. And none reach the damage output of Wizard attack-spells.

    geisterkatze wrote: »
    Very nice overview of the spells, Brael, but the subject is not if we are able to spam all our attack spells ...

    Since you're comparing with wizards, it is also about spamming attack spells. There is not much room in our skill tree where we can replace attack skills with pet-buffs.

    Not that I wouldn't welcome pet-buffs - I was highly disappointed when I found Bramble did not cast on my pet.
  • geisterkatze
    geisterkatze Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Unfortunetly it seems that I somehow fail to express my point of view this time. Let me try one more time. I'm talking about the pure arcane build (no fox form skills) and that the arcane tree has so many attack spells and that playing that build is just like playing another wizard. It is not that I'm bored with it or that I'm looking for a different build or something. It is just having another wizard type just doesn't feel right (I cannot phrase it any differently). I just think it is a pity that we cannot do more with/or through our pets, as this would really make the arcane part different from a wizard.
    If you like another the another wizard type, it is fine. I was just presenting a different approach and have it discuss. More like a druid, who manipulates nature if you like.

    In the end this discussion will be in vain anyway because it is not likely that it will be implemented.
  • geisterkatze
    geisterkatze Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    turtlewax wrote: »
    That would surprise me, the only attack-spell that can be spammed is Venomous Scarab. All others have long cooldowns, require chi, are ineffective or have a specialized side-effect. And none reach the damage output of Wizard attack-spells.

    Since you're comparing with wizards, it is also about spamming attack spells.

    Let me put it more bluntly and provocatively:
    wizard = casting damaging spells on mobs from afar = arcane venomancer

    I'm not talking about spamming the spells or the damage output but the process itself.
    turtlewax wrote: »
    Not that I wouldn't welcome pet-buffs - I was highly disappointed when I found Bramble did not cast on my pet.

    Same here.
  • XAmraelx - Sanctuary
    XAmraelx - Sanctuary Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    I think u are flaming against everyone who dont get your point......
    Anyway if u dont wanna be a wizzard with a pet then go heavy veno and u will be a BM/Barb with a pet and if venos skill's changes on buffs for pets u will be a cleric with a pet........ same always but skills never gonna change or improve, u must think u gain extra skills against other class and those skills are your pet's skill's
    U still aren't high lv for test other skills maybe now u think are useless and those will be great on a future
  • geisterkatze
    geisterkatze Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    XAmraelx - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I think u are flaming against everyone who dont get your point......

    Wrong. But never mind if you don't even try to understand what I'm writing then this makes no sense. The forum is obviously not a place to discuss alternative ideas. I should have known beforehand. Sorry for having bothered anyone. I'm out of here.

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