Venomancer "Paradox"

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Comments

  • EvilDragon - Dreamweaver
    EvilDragon - Dreamweaver Posts: 224 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    geisterkatze wrote: »
    I would be very careful to judge anyone by just reading what they write in the forum. You don't know me at all. By the way the OP is me, and my nick is Geisterkatze.
    I'm not eager to shoot down anyone or anyone's oppinion. The reason why I answered quickly is that discussions like these tend develope totally away from the original subject. Believe me, I have quite some experience with forums.
    My "narrow" point of view is based on the skills we get at the moment. I know that there are different builds but skill wise we basically have the arcane tree and the fox tree, with another tree for personal protection, buffing, etc. As I have written in a previous post in this therad I was not considering the fox fighter at the moment.

    Maybe you have some experience with forums...but do you have experiance in game?? If not...you probably dont know what your talking about in the forums...
    But so far we can only heal and revive our pets. No removing negative effects, no heal over time, no additional protection from damage, ...

    Just go cleric and ask a barb if he wants to be your pet.
    That is certainly true, especially in boss fights, but in my limited experience (level 41) you still use mainly the attack spells to fight the normal mobs together with your pet. And in my observations in the game the majority of venomancers seem to do exactly this.

    As a veno it's your job to debuff, so the mob dies faster. You do this with bosses and with normal mobs. As you do this your pet is the tank so you dont get hit while debuffing. And why remove debuffs from your pet?!?! Just heal a few times. A pet cant die of a debuff as long as you heal hit.


    Just stop complaining...a veno is what it is (best solo class b:victory). But you have to know how to play one... (it are mostly the ppl who dont know how to play their class that are complaining)

    So..as I said before: go cleric and ask a barb to be your pet ^^

    Have a nice day!! b:bye
  • EvilDragon - Dreamweaver
    EvilDragon - Dreamweaver Posts: 224 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    geisterkatze wrote: »
    Wrong. But never mind if you don't even try to understand what I'm writing then this makes no sense. The forum is obviously not a place to discuss alternative ideas. I should have known beforehand. Sorry for having bothered anyone. I'm out of here.

    We do discuss alternative ideas here... Even the stupid ones, but with those you get reactions like in this thread b:chuckle

    I would comment some more here..ROFLMFAO while reading all this!!!b:laugh
    Just read my post above...that will say enough ^^
  • XAmraelx - Sanctuary
    XAmraelx - Sanctuary Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Total agree with EvilDragon and like i said u are not disscusing u are pissing everyone who not get your point u are flaming against venos and turn it on another QQ complain thread
  • geisterkatze
    geisterkatze Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    EvilDragon - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    We do discuss alternative ideas here...

    No, you aren't doing that. What you do is to tell me how venomancers are in the game. And that's all. Most people just polish their ago, stating how good they are playing and/or how good they know this game. They are so busy doing this that they don't even grasp the idea that what I'm not talking about how it is but how it could be.

    And since it is way to much work just explaining here what I mean I'm out of here. Sorry, I really have something better to do with my time.
    EvilDragon - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I would comment some more here..ROFLMFAO while reading all this!!!b:laugh
    Just read my post above...that will say enough ^^

    Point proven. Thanks.
  • EvilDragon - Dreamweaver
    EvilDragon - Dreamweaver Posts: 224 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    geisterkatze wrote: »
    No, you aren't doing that. What you do is to tell me how venomancers are in the game. And that's all. Most people just polish their ago, stating how good they are playing and/or how good they know this game. They are so busy doing this that they don't even grasp the idea that what I'm not talking about how it is but how it could be.

    And since it is way to much work just explaining here what I mean I'm out of here. Sorry, I really have something better to do with my time.

    Actually I do know what you mean. But when we can buff our pets we are the upper race. In a mmorpg the classes are all equal so noone is the best. If we could do this (buff our pets) no other classes will be played anymore cuz everyone whants to have the best class (veno)

    And btw..you only quote a part of the sentence I said:
    >>We do discuss alternative ideas here.
    you left the part out where I said:
    >>Even the stupid ones, but with those you get reactions like in this thread

    Why do you want to make 1 class better?!?! To be a upper race?!?!
    Thats just...stupid >.<
    All classes are equal and should stay that way.
    Its your playstyle that makes you a good or bad player.
  • turtlewax
    turtlewax Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    geisterkatze wrote: »
    wizard = casting damaging spells on mobs from afar = arcane venomancer

    For which the wizard has a many choices and the venomancer basically 1. Between the scarabs and the wallops there just isn't that much room left in our skill tree.

    I dont know, GW's Ranger has a pet with a separate line of skills and it has enough potential for balancing problems that you can be certain the devs will leave it underpowered. Here we have a pet, a genie and our own character and they all have skills that could potentially combine into some overpowered synergy.

    As to the way the discussion goes, if you want to discuss skillchanges that would give more power to our pets then comparing the (arcane) veno to a wizard is asking for comments about that comparision rather then - what I assume was - your original intended topic of conversation.

    And to return there, what buffs do you have in mind?
    I'm not talking about spamming the spells or the damage output but the process itself.

    But then one could consider an archer to be a wizard. No? ;)
  • Flauschkatze - Heavens Tear
    Flauschkatze - Heavens Tear Posts: 998 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    the only buff I could imagine for a pet would be a movement speed buff which lasts... maybe 5 mins?

    oh yes, I was disappointed with bramble too...
    is my pet not a friendly target? :(
    ~~Inactive~~

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Thanks to Torhn for coloring!
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Not been bothering with leech cause, well, spark. And I admit to not having maxed my amp because I ran out of cash. I'll go fix that this week.

    Maybe I'm missing something but what do Leech and spark have to do with each other? Leech doesn't use any chi, infact it adds 15 and heals you. If you go fox, you're stuck in it for atleast 6 seconds. If consume is high level use it, then leech, mist, and amp. That way it was almost mana free. Otherwise mist/leech/amp to fill the time before you can leave fox again assuming you aren't already filling the time with pet heals.
  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    The point is that arcane venomancers aren't wizards because we are not going for damage when attacking. Ironwood benefits not only our pets but other melee classes, lending hand allows a barb to hold aggro or can be used to add to another players dps, noxious is useful to take the aggro away from a caster that's getting ganked... playing an arcane veno is complex because debuffing done right makes a huge difference. I would prefer to have more skills that allow us to interact with other players (such as sparking) instead of having uber pets that would just unbalance the game. Oh, and btw, there's a difference in between keeping a discussion on track and directing it to where you want it to go.
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I would prefer to have more skills that allow us to interact with other players (such as sparking)

    When i read that I read it as "interact with other players (such as spanking)" i was really wondering about that.....

    Glad I read it a second time.
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Maybe I'm missing something but what do Leech and spark have to do with each other? Leech doesn't use any chi, infact it adds 15 and heals you.
    The higher level spark eruptions also partially heal you. Vitenka is saying s/he can heal up the damage s/he takes using sparks, rather than having to use Leech.
    If you go fox, you're stuck in it for atleast 6 seconds. If consume is high level use it, then leech, mist, and amp. That way it was almost mana free. Otherwise mist/leech/amp to fill the time before you can leave fox again assuming you aren't already filling the time with pet heals.
    I've leveled up Consume and Leech almost to max for my level, and as a fox veno I'm not really sure they're that effective. Consume just does regular damage, and both skills take as much time as nearly 2.4 attacks each. IMHO you lose a lot of damage using the combo. I'm not even sure Leech is worth it as a damage skill - 2.4x my regular melee damage comes really close to what Leech does, and doesn't cost any mana.

    I've been playing with using Soul Transfusion, then Leech to bring up my hp as a means to replenish my mana bar. I partially lose the use of ST in emergencies, but my DPS is up, my playing is a lot less frenetic (don't have to constantly Consume and Leech all the time), and I find I'm generally more aware of the situations I'm in and thus can avoid emergencies where I'd need to use ST anyway.
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Ya, ST/Leech works well, but consumes up to 100 chi, I used it a ton prior to maxing consume... and it doesn't even require a maxed out leech for arcane. The thing I was pointing out though is if you're using Amplify which it's hard to argue against being worth it even for an arcane (and even harder to argue against if you're not solo), the 6 sec cooldown on fox means you're stuck in fox for some time when you amp regardless. Your options while fox are:
    1. Heal, if you can it's one of the best times to pet heal since you can't nuke anyways.
    2. Fox skills.
    3. Melee.
    4. Nothing.

    I just tested Leech on the guys I'm fighting currently, I hit for 1918, and consume hit for 490, my physical is 520-726, melee mastery is only 2. Since 1918 is more than 0, it's a great choice for a skill to use while waiting on the fox cooldown. Using Amp and Leech takes 4.12 seconds which means there's room for a third skill, out of those the choices are either befuddling for more damage, and to reduce how much healing the pet needs (at a cost of losing some reflect damage if I'm using my herc) or consume to cover part of the mana cost. I have consume maxed for my level currently so it's at 8, that's 400 mana back. Fox+Consume+Leech+Amp+Fox is 485 mana, by using consume I drop it to 85 which is pretty much nothing. It also provides 40 chi, with my 21 channeling venomous provides 27.5 chi in that same time frame.

    It would be different for light or heavy since our melee abilities are rather far apart. However, since amp is worth it, I might as well fill in that empty time with worthwhile skills.
  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    When i read that I read it as "interact with other players (such as spanking)" i was really wondering about that.....

    Glad I read it a second time.

    LOL, I wonder what the cooldown on that would be...
  • Alphae - Lost City
    Alphae - Lost City Posts: 1,512 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    LOL, I wonder what the cooldown on that would be...

    It would depend on the target. b:kiss
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Xymantha - Dreamweaver
    Xymantha - Dreamweaver Posts: 197 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    geisterkatze wrote: »
    My point was not just to add something to the current skills but to change the way a Venomancer plays. Just adding something would certainly produce an inbalance. I would certainly like to see more venomancer skills/spells concerning the pet than attack spells, which are the domain of the wizard IMHO.
    you want to produce an inbalance in what way? to make your pet much stronger than you are? or to make the venomancer class like a "god class" - much better than the rest? At my level, I can kill any class aside from an archer (cant get to em before the shoot me to death, even in fox form. but thats because I'm arcane)
    At the moment it does not seem to be neccessary to increase the taming skill beyond level 1 for example. How about removing the possibility to buy skills for the pet and thereby increasing the desire to tame higher level mobs with better skills, which of course would need a higher taming skill? Maybe the growth of a pet should be adjusted to assist this as well.
    Hmm... not sure if youve compared stats on your pets before or not. Generally speaking, the lower the level a pet is caught, the stronger it grows up to be. IE: a Crystaline Magmite caught at level 17 and leveled up to 68 will be stronger and have higher def/hp than a Torgrim (caught at level 31 I believe) that is leveled up to 72. And a sawfly caught at level 8 will have a higher attack than that Magmite will (too bad it cant be used in FB/TT). So you see, there's really no compelling reason to tame a higher level pet just because of the higher level skills, I mean come on.. 200k every 20 levels to upgrade Bash is easily attainable for ANY class, much moreso for a venomancer - since if you are playing your class correclty, you should be incurring very little damage (if at all). What with Divine Supplements -> Soul Transfusion -> Metabolic Boost (and the genie skill protection tree for emergencies, or if you go on a massive killing spree and run your mana down before Divine cools down) you should never have to use a single potion (IE: extra money saved on not buying them, and money earned on selling some as well.)
    geisterkatze wrote: »
    Very nice overview of the spells, Brael, but the subject is not if we are able to spam all our attack spells but that we have so many attack spells and almost none concerning our pet. So in the end the arcane venomancer still plays like a wizard with a personal tank. We may not be able to spam as many attack spells as a wizard but for me this is only a minimal difference.
    I honestly don't understand why you would want to take away your skills and give them to the pet, or change them to "pet buffs". To me, it sounds as though you are looking at the following:

    A: Playing cleric to a pocket barbarian (may as well go be a cleric)
    B: being a melee character that doesn't stand in front of the monster
    geisterkatze wrote: »
    No, you aren't doing that. What you do is to tell me how venomancers are in the game. And that's all. Most people just polish their ago, stating how good they are playing and/or how good they know this game. They are so busy doing this that they don't even grasp the idea that what I'm not talking about how it is but how it could be.

    Well, its kinda hard to talk about how things could be, without discussing how they are. IE.. if you change X aspect of the class and turn it into Y, then your character can no longer play its current role because youve given most of that to a pet - an in my opinion would make the class much weaker. I imagine you play PvE only and don't test the waters with PvP? If you take your skills and turn yourself into a full pet cleric, you're gonna suffer big time on PvP unless you have a nix to kill your attacker (hopefully) before you get killed. Because, in PvP - players are smarter than the AI of the game. They don't attack your pet before they go for you. They just go straight for you, because as soon as you die.. the pet goes with you. The pet for a venomancer should not be where all the strength lies. It is rather an extension of the armor (in PvE) as well as an additional weapon (both PvP and PvE). I think to make the type of changes you are talking about would be a bad move gameplay wise, especially for PvP (unless you get lucky to never get attacked).

    Honestly though, my thoughts here are that if you are looking for a different type of gameplay, perhaps you should choose a different class that is better suited to what you are looking for. I personally don't see any reason to buff my magmite. In a normal grinding session, he can tank three mobs at once while I smack em down with Noxious gas. If I'm in an FB or TT, he turns tank with another veno or two playing cleric while I alternate between cleric and DD. He can also be a puller by commanding him to attack 1 mob in a group of 10, then stowing him (yes.. lets keep the group alive). He's also good at tanking a roaming add on mob in FB 51 while I keep the boss debuffed and/or amped for the tank. But.. I stat my veno very differently than most do, apparently. I keep 3x level into magic - like an LA veno would - but I wear arcane armor and throw the rest to Vit with 23 into Dex to improve my accuracy.

    The secret to being successful and happy in the game is to:
    A - think about what you want your role to be - and choose the character that best suits that role
    B - know what the role of the character you play is.
    I'm a man
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The higher level spark eruptions also partially heal you. Vitenka is saying s/he can heal up the damage s/he takes using sparks, rather than having to use Leech.

    Sadly not, since that would make me seem more clever than I am.

    I actually just managed to write 'chi' when I meant 'spirit' cause I am an idiot.

    I just didn't have the resources (actually, now it's cash I lack more than spirit) to level up the fox tree.
  • Xymantha - Dreamweaver
    Xymantha - Dreamweaver Posts: 197 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Sadly not, since that would make me seem more clever than I am.

    I actually just managed to write 'chi' when I meant 'spirit' cause I am an idiot.

    I just didn't have the resources (actually, now it's cash I lack more than spirit) to level up the fox tree.

    I wouldnt overly worry about the fox tree till the mage tree is mostly completed. Choose one or two from fox form for now as far as the debuffs/curses go. Amp damage is a good one for boss fights - purge good for TW's. If you want to max the fox tree, I'd wait till you get higher level to concentrate on that. Otherwise you spread yourself too thin.
    I'm a man
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Xymantha - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I wouldnt overly worry about the fox tree till the mage tree is mostly completed. Choose one or two from fox form for now as far as the debuffs/curses go. Amp damage is a good one for boss fights - purge good for TW's. If you want to max the fox tree, I'd wait till you get higher level to concentrate on that. Otherwise you spread yourself too thin.

    Well, venomous hit 10 and I finally saved enough to max out my wood damage buff and ironheart for my level. So branching sounds good.

    Doing interesting things (like cycling to fox for a while) seems like a much more fun idea that just sitting out at max range and throwing scarabs and the occasional pet heal.

    Though it is fun to find bosses that I can stand jussst outside of the aoe, to fight. (Muahahaha. Farren! You are mine!)

    So anyway, yeah. Leech. Not really seeing the use, since most of the time if something actually hits me hard I'm going to fall down dead, and if I'm just grinding I've already got, what, five? six? ways of regaining health.

    Combining it with consume spirit in order to never ever ever run out of health or mana again sounds interesting. Since the refresh times on natures grace etc. .are so long. But I have no idea what I'd have to do to actually run out of mana so fast.
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Consume spirit is more for saving chi than maintaining mana. Until consume is maxed (and even then, with high enough hp it's not worth it) it's better to just use leech/transfusion. It's cheaper to buy too. Outside of what I posted above with how I use it, I'm not sure there's a way to use consume for heavy, fox, or arcane that doesn't result in something else being better during that time and even then befuddling is arguably better (and cheaper to buy).

    And if you want to run out of mana fast, start using a lot of noxious and lucky scarab, or go fox to amplify, though in those cases where you can run out I've always found it better to just transfusion and tree than worry about lowering damage output temporarily to heal myself. Especially since a single kill gives me enough coin to pay for tree 4 times.
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Consume spirit is more for saving chi than maintaining mana. Until consume is maxed (and even then, with high enough hp it's not worth it) it's better to just use leech/transfusion. It's cheaper to buy too. Outside of what I posted above with how I use it, I'm not sure there's a way to use consume for heavy, fox, or arcane that doesn't result in something else being better during that time and even then befuddling is arguably better (and cheaper to buy).

    I'm just using Natures Grace / Transfuse / Metabolic Boost when I need it.
    Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    And if you want to run out of mana fast, start using a lot of noxious and lucky scarab

    Yeah, but lucky scarab doesn't actually do as much damage as venomous, yet. (Stun rarely works, though I throw in the lucky sometimes and hope)

    Amplify doesn't use that much mana. Unless you mean the mana loss from going fox and back, which pretty much just means "Your mana bars top its at 75% instead of 100%"

    Noxious... yeah, that can get costly. I can't use it very often yet, because my pet can't hold aggro on a group very well yet. (Which is mainly me needing to practice) Well, maybe if I use that more I'll look for more ways to gain mana.

    And tree of life? I got it, I clicked it once to try it - and since then I have managed to utterly forget that I have it. I've got an entire hotbar dedicated to emergency healing. It's on there somewhere!
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Amplify costs more than just the amp itself. It will vary with your level of fox, at max fox it's 90 each way so although amp only costs 120, you're actually spending 300 to use it. Plus have to deal with having a few seconds of no spells while you wait on the fox cooldown, which means more mana if you want to do above 0 damage while you wait.

    It's quite a big drain compared to what you would use on venomous in that same time frame.
  • Nehemiah - Harshlands
    Nehemiah - Harshlands Posts: 79 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    What the OP is talking about is making the venomancer similar to a character of another game I've played, Lineage 2 or L2 being similar to it's three summoner classes in which they all heal and provide buffs for the pet while they don't really have much for themselves, making them easy targets but to cover this weakness they have a skill called transfer pain which at max level delivers 50% of damage recieved to the pet IE

    you get hit for 2000, and you take 1000 damage and your pet takes 1000 damage. This way it would force players to pay more attently to the pet where they can deal the full 2000 to them. but this is where the summoner can heal their pet. But in this case if the pet dies, the summoner is defenseless.

    Then you also have what the OP is trying to make it into. Lineage 2's necromancer. Where you have magic attack skills, a hp drain skill, debuffs, a few buffs, and the ability to summon, heal, and slightly buff an undead minion while having the same transferpain that summoners, get the difference is necromancers can even pve AND pvp effectively(even more than other classes) without a pet, having one pushes it over the edge. This class is an overpowered class in lineage 2 therefore it was nerfed and now it is weak.

    Is that what you want venomancers to be? The best for a moment then weaker than all others the next?
  • LappDance - Sanctuary
    LappDance - Sanctuary Posts: 32 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Nehemiah - Harshlands wrote: »
    What the OP is talking about is making the venomancer similar to a character of another game I've played, Lineage 2 or L2 being similar to it's three summoner classes in which they all heal and provide buffs for the pet while they don't really have much for themselves, making them easy targets but to cover this weakness they have a skill called transfer pain which at max level delivers 50% of damage recieved to the pet IE

    you get hit for 2000, and you take 1000 damage and your pet takes 1000 damage. This way it would force players to pay more attently to the pet where they can deal the full 2000 to them. but this is where the summoner can heal their pet. But in this case if the pet dies, the summoner is defenseless.

    Then you also have what the OP is trying to make it into. Lineage 2's necromancer. Where you have magic attack skills, a hp drain skill, debuffs, a few buffs, and the ability to summon, heal, and slightly buff an undead minion while having the same transferpain that summoners, get the difference is necromancers can even pve AND pvp effectively(even more than other classes) without a pet, having one pushes it over the edge. This class is an overpowered class in lineage 2 therefore it was nerfed and now it is weak.

    Is that what you want venomancers to be? The best for a moment then weaker than all others the next?

    Oddly enough, I was thinking something similar, except that the OP's ideas sound a lot like the Mage class in Everquest. Coming from EQ (where I mostly played pet classes), I initially picked Veno as it was closest to what I was familiar with playing. However, I left EQ because I wanted a change. I'd hate to see PWI turn the Veno class into another EQ mage.

    To the OP, there are already games out there that incorporate the ideas you're looking at - maybe trying them out would be a good idea for you.

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