trying to understand gold prices and people's mindsets

FionaCattail - Sanctuary · August 2009

this isn't a complaint about the fact that gold is so high.. it's actually an inquiry to the understanding of people

currently, gold is 180k/G which in turn has risen the cost of GAs (30silver) to 100k each..

yet when you try to sell a spurred kirin, people offer 2M.. now a kirin is 30G in the cash shop, and it's like 10-15G for the spurs..

so, how is it that 6G is worth 2M when talkin about somethings, but 40-45G is worth that same 2M when talking about others?

Mothergoose - Sanctuary · August 2009

Because there's an excess of mounts those days, thanks to all the new ones coming out. No one actually wants to buy an old one. There's no demand.

In any case, I doubt anyone is buying a kirin with gold those days. PWI is just undermining sales on one side to boost another.

Jesseah - Dreamweaver · August 2009

FionaCattail - Sanctuary wrote: »

currently, gold is 180k/G which in turn has risen the cost of GAs (30silver) to 100k each..

^

^
Lucky man...people in dreamweaver are selling gold for effing 225k a pop....

Ikurei - Dreamweaver · August 2009

Jesseah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

^
^
Lucky man...people in dreamweaver are selling gold for effing 225k a pop....

225k and rising. I miss the days when gold was only 130k. b:sad

I think it's time for me to switch to Sanctuary. b:bye

BratFury - Heavens Tear · August 2009

This was a problem occurring LONG before the Jolly Jones event or the new expansion. Even 4-5 months ago I was having a hard time selling stuff. I had an elephant mount (spurred) I let go for 2 mil. 2 MILLLLL!!!!!! Because I couldn't get more than that out of it. But yet when someone had something worth 40 gold in the CS they wanted to sell to me, and I offered them 2 mil for it, it was such an insult. Basically, no one wants to give for something what they'd expect you to give. This is a tragedy!! But it was happening long before all this patch and such took place. It just wasn't as noticed.

Demand may have something to do with it, however a spurred panther is still holding its price well at 1.2-1.4 mil. Maybe its most in demand to lower lvl players b/c its the cheapest mount they can attain that they can ride.

Switching from Dreamweaver to a different server won't solve your problem. Before the last 2 patches gold in HT was only around 110k per gold. Last I looked this morning it was 188k/G. Other than things the vast majority of people use such as (charms, angels, orbs) other stuff really hasn't caught up to the gold.

FionaCattail - Sanctuary · August 2009

oh, I understand that it's been happening for a long time.. even as far back as when gold was still 102k/G (last october before the duke rose glitch), I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to sell some things at a price based on the price of gold, while other things (which also cost gold) aren't affected by the cost of gold.. that's all..

BratFury - Heavens Tear · August 2009

FionaCattail - Sanctuary wrote: »

oh, I understand that it's been happening for a long time.. even as far back as when gold was still 102k/G (last october before the duke rose glitch), I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to sell some things at a price based on the price of gold, while other things (which also cost gold) aren't affected by the cost of gold.. that's all..

I guess I missed whatever the duke rose glitch was. Enlighten me would you just so I know

. And I totally agree with this statement

I was just making the fact known that it was happening before now thats all. I'd hate to get another flaming thread about how JJ and the gold boxes are upping gold. This particular thing was happening well before that

Jesseah - Dreamweaver · August 2009

I hear what you mean. People really are stingy about this stuff, and the problem is....the market is allowing this price to keep rising.
The gold buyers just keep buying, keep buying as price goes up, it's like freaking oil. If we just boycott gold for a while until its price goes down, maybe we might be able to lower the inflation? Starting petition.....now.

FionaCattail - Sanctuary · August 2009

when the duke rose set first came out, there was a glitch that allowed people to do a quest that ended up making them millions (a bunch of people were banned for taking advantage of it), it took the price of gold from 102 to 600 on sanctuary.. after they fixed the glitch, gold went back down.. but not below 120..

FionaCattail - Sanctuary · August 2009

Jesseah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I hear what you mean. People really are stingy about this stuff, and the problem is....the market is allowing this price to keep rising.
The gold buyers just keep buying, keep buying as price goes up, it's like freaking oil. If we just boycott gold for a while until its price goes down, maybe we might be able to lower the inflation? Starting petition.....now.

to give you an idea of how stingy I am.. since the best offer I could get was 2M, I decided to give my kirin to a friend who I do alot of rebirths with.. since I made more than 2M doing the runs with her, and she didn't have a mount

Ikurei - Dreamweaver · August 2009

BratFury - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This was a problem occurring LONG before the Jolly Jones event or the new expansion. Even 4-5 months ago I was having a hard time selling stuff. I had an elephant mount (spurred) I let go for 2 mil. 2 MILLLLL!!!!!! Because I couldn't get more than that out of it. But yet when someone had something worth 40 gold in the CS they wanted to sell to me, and I offered them 2 mil for it, it was such an insult. Basically, no one wants to give for something what they'd expect you to give. This is a tragedy!! But it was happening long before all this patch and such took place. It just wasn't as noticed.

Demand may have something to do with it, however a spurred panther is still holding its price well at 1.2-1.4 mil. Maybe its most in demand to lower lvl players b/c its the cheapest mount they can attain that they can ride.

Switching from Dreamweaver to a different server won't solve your problem. Before the last 2 patches gold in HT was only around 110k per gold. Last I looked this morning it was 188k/G. Other than things the vast majority of people use such as (charms, angels, orbs) other stuff really hasn't caught up to the gold.

I was just joking above, I have no intention of switching. I don't buy gold (either through money (which I lack) or auction hall) so the high gold prices don't really bother me (if the prices were lower then I might be tempted to buy some in the auction though).

I would like to reiterate, I am not leaving Dreamweaver so please don't kill me Divine (if you happen to read this). b:sad

BratFury - Heavens Tear · August 2009

FionaCattail - Sanctuary wrote: »

when the duke rose set first came out, there was a glitch that allowed people to do a quest that ended up making them millions (a bunch of people were banned for taking advantage of it), it took the price of gold from 102 to 600 on sanctuary.. after they fixed the glitch, gold went back down.. but not below 120..

I was unaware. That was some major glitch then. I wonder why the duke rose was the highest selling item out there, if there was a glitch that came with it making them millionaires.

I will say tho, ppl are probably pretty irritated PWI keeps releasing very expensive clothing items. I had a black bikini top before they released the bikinis. It was worth 4 mil one day, less than one mil the next. Same for those with duke rose stuff (I wasn't one of those). However; I can't say I'm upset. I wasn't going to pay 10 million for a pair of boots in game and they wasn't available out of game. Either way tho, they keep messing with the economy. As I said in a prior post, its not as if the price of zen went up, not sure why gold is so much.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear · August 2009

BratFury - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I guess I missed whatever the duke rose glitch was. Enlighten me would you just so I know . And I totally agree with this statement I was just making the fact known that it was happening before now thats all. I'd hate to get another flaming thread about how JJ and the gold boxes are upping gold. This particular thing was happening well before that

The "problem" is the server is maturing, and we get more high levels on now, therefore, they make more coin, which in turn means they are willing to spend more for the gold now, since they have more disposable income.

Prices of gold will keep raising, even though PWE tried to put the breaks on the prices by coming up with the coin boxes in the Cube. The fact that they pretty much established an official exchange rate of gold saying that it is not worth more than 200k coins per unit is almost pointless since we have a fairly large population of people that do not have access to RL cash (or choose to not use RL cash)but have LOTS of time in their hands to grind. Those people will keep grinding, making coin, and will keep being willing to pay more and more for the gold.

The fact that people use the line "this is just a game" applies to inflation as well, they do not care about the implact of setting a buy order for gold at 200k will have. As soon as a seller sees a buy order for 200k, they will set sell orders for 210k, If the buyer is willing to pay 210k, and sets buy order for 210k, even though gold is only worth 200k per unit (1mil coins for 5 gold), than the sellers will keep feeding the above normal prices, as more buyers get involved, they will fight for the gold, therefore setting up buy order higher and higher.

Eventualy, more sellers will enter the market, since it will too good to pass, that should increase the supply of gold, however, since the free players are the majority, you will be a very long time before we reach the equilibrium, since there will never be enough gold sellers to trslly match the demands of the freeloaders.

Solandri - Heavens Tear · August 2009

FionaCattail - Sanctuary wrote: »

currently, gold is 180k/G which in turn has risen the cost of GAs (30silver) to 100k each..

yet when you try to sell a spurred kirin, people offer 2M.. now a kirin is 30G in the cash shop, and it's like 10-15G for the spurs..

so, how is it that 6G is worth 2M when talkin about somethings, but 40-45G is worth that same 2M when talking about others?

GAs are consumables. People use them up and have to replace them with new ones. The market value reflects their replacement cost. That is, the price you have to pay now to get a new one.

Mounts are durable goods. Once you buy one, it'll last forever. There is no replacement cost, so their market value reflects their original purchase price.

Put another way, sure the people buying new mounts right now are paying a fortune. But their high-priced mount's cost has to be averaged against the cost of the gazillion other mounts which were bought when prices were much more reasonable and are also for sale now. So on average, the mount's cost reflects the lower gold price of days gone by. (In addition, because they're durable, the supply of them tends to be pretty high relative to the demand, which depresses the prices below the original purchase price.)

You can apply the same reasoning to GAs, except when you go to average the cost of the new ones with cost of the old ones, you find that there are no old ones on the market. They were all used up - consumed. So only the new ones are on the market, and their average price is thus based entirely on the cost of the new ones.

BratFury - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

GAs are consumables. People use them up and have to replace them with new ones. The market value reflects their replacement cost. That is, the price you have to pay now to get a new one.

Mounts are durable goods. Once you buy one, it'll last forever. There is no replacement cost, so their market value reflects their original purchase price.

Put another way, sure the people buying new mounts right now are paying a fortune. But their high-priced mount's cost has to be averaged against the cost of the gazillion other mounts which were bought when prices were much more reasonable and are also for sale now. So on average, the mount's cost reflects the lower gold price of days gone by. (In addition, because they're durable, the supply of them tends to be pretty high relative to the demand, which depresses the prices below the original purchase price.)

You can apply the same reasoning to GAs, except when you go to average the cost of the new ones with cost of the old ones, you find that there are no old ones on the market. They were all used up - consumed. So only the new ones are on the market, and their average price is thus based entirely on the cost of the new ones.

A wise one has spoken! Nice way to put it all out there Solandri

Starrr - Harshlands · August 2009

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The "problem" is the server is maturing, and we get more high levels on now, therefore, they make more coin, which in turn means they are willing to spend more for the gold now, since they have more disposable income.

Prices of gold will keep raising, even though PWE tried to put the breaks on the prices by coming up with the coin boxes in the Cube. The fact that they pretty much established an official exchange rate of gold saying that it is not worth more than 200k coins per unit is almost pointless since we have a fairly large population of people that do not have access to RL cash (or choose to not use RL cash)but have LOTS of time in their hands to grind. Those people will keep grinding, making coin, and will keep being willing to pay more and more for the gold.

The fact that people use the line "this is just a game" applies to inflation as well, they do not care about the implact of setting a buy order for gold at 200k will have. As soon as a seller sees a buy order for 200k, they will set sell orders for 210k, If the buyer is willing to pay 210k, and sets buy order for 210k, even though gold is only worth 200k per unit (1mil coins for 5 gold), than the sellers will keep feeding the above normal prices, as more buyers get involved, they will fight for the gold, therefore setting up buy order higher and higher.

Eventualy, more sellers will enter the market, since it will too good to pass, that should increase the supply of gold, however, since the free players are the majority, you will be a very long time before we reach the equilibrium, since there will never be enough gold sellers to trslly match the demands of the freeloaders.

you are seriously clueless arent you? how many times do people have to explain it to you that the cube box sets a minimum price for gold at 200k not a maximum price. i could go on and on explaining how it works yet again to you but you cant seem to understand no matter how many people tell you.

Viper_girl - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Starrr - Harshlands wrote: »

you are seriously clueless arent you? how many times do people have to explain it to you that the cube box sets a minimum price for gold at 200k not a maximum price. i could go on and on explaining how it works yet again to you but you cant seem to understand no matter how many people tell you.

Actually the Boxes don't set a max or minimum price. It is simply gives you an Option to purchase 1 Mil coin with 5 Gold at any time. Since the Box is not freely given out to everybody, it has a limited supply and therefore has to be Quested or bought. The market price of the Box will fluctuate depending on the exchange rate at the time, the supply/demand. If you take into account the price of the Box can fluctuate the end result is that the Box has no effect on "fixing" the exchange rate.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Starrr - Harshlands wrote: »

you are seriously clueless arent you? how many times do people have to explain it to you that the cube box sets a minimum price for gold at 200k not a maximum price. i could go on and on explaining how it works yet again to you but you cant seem to understand no matter how many people tell you.

It seems you do not have a clear understanding of economics, so, let me explain it once again:

Non-binding price ceilings are not maximun prices, they are equilibrium prices, meaning if demand equaled supply, the prices would settle at around the non-binding price ceiling. The actual price of the item will fluctualte up or down from it depending on the supply and demand. Prior to the boxes, there was really nothing in the cash shop that had a in-game, non-negotiable value, the introduction of the boxes created that relationship, since now we all know that 5 gold can get you 1 million coins, set value not affected by market fluctuations.

If what you are saying is true, how come gold is less than 200k in HT? If it was a minimun price, than all gold should be at 200k or more in all servers, right? Or you telling me that the sellers are holding back on the prices out of the goodness of their hearts?

@Viper_girl
You are correct, the boxes work only as a "reference worth" for gold.

Kardie - Dreamweaver · August 2009

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It seems you do not have a clear understanding of economics, so, let me explain it once again:

Non-binding price ceilings are not maximun prices, they are equilibrium prices, meaning if demand equaled supply, the prices would settle at around the non-binding price ceiling. The actualy price of the item will fluctualte up or down from it depending on the supply and demand. Prior to the boxes, there was really nothing in the cash shop that had a in-game, non-negotiable value, the introduction of the boxes created that relationship, since now we all know that 5 gold can get you 1 million coins, set value not affected by market fluctuations.

If what you are saying is true, how come gold is less than 200k in HT? If it was a minimun price, than all gold should be at 200k or more in all servers, right? Or you telling me that the sellers are holding back on the prices out of the goodness of their hearts?

@Viper_girl
You are correct, the boxes work only as a "reference worth" for gold.

gold is above 200k in dreamweaver b:surrender

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · August 2009

Kardie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

gold is above 200k in dreamweaver b:surrender

Well above. Which would be why those coin-boxes can be snapped up dirt cheap.

If anyone wants to bet on gold price going back down when Jones ends, that's the way to do it. Buy a pile of boxes whilst they are cheap, then the hammers when they are cheap.

Of course, you might get stuck with a pile of worthless boxes...

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Kardie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

gold is above 200k in dreamweaver b:surrender

In HT, for now, gold keeps trying to get to 200k, but sell orders keeps sliding up and down between 183k and 190k and buy orders between 180k and 182k.

If we survive until tuesday, and there are no special sales after downtime, we may be able to fend off the 200k per gold for a little longer.

ShadedArrow - Dreamweaver · August 2009

Why complain about the gold prices?b:shocked the gold is because people decide to use there RL money so dont QQb:cry cause some1 wants to put it at 200k+, if it wasnt for them cash shop players then we wouldnt even have gold to get items...so you should be praising the people selling gold not scolding them, sad when people think there pixel coins are important...oh an this opinion is comming from a NON cashshop player..nub cakesb:thanks

Starrr - Harshlands · August 2009

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It seems you do not have a clear understanding of economics, so, let me explain it once again:

Non-binding price ceilings are not maximun prices, they are equilibrium prices, meaning if demand equaled supply, the prices would settle at around the non-binding price ceiling. The actual price of the item will fluctualte up or down from it depending on the supply and demand. Prior to the boxes, there was really nothing in the cash shop that had a in-game, non-negotiable value, the introduction of the boxes created that relationship, since now we all know that 5 gold can get you 1 million coins, set value not affected by market fluctuations.

If what you are saying is true, how come gold is less than 200k in HT? If it was a minimun price, than all gold should be at 200k or more in all servers, right? Or you telling me that the sellers are holding back on the prices out of the goodness of their hearts?

@Viper_girl
You are correct, the boxes work only as a "reference worth" for gold.

yet again not a single intelligent thought. any gold price under 200k means the coin boxes have value. people will buy up gold until they can no longer make money from opening the boxes. coin boxes will make sure that prices never drop much below ~200k. 5 servers over 200k 1 under pretty much discredits your argument. maybe you have less people running cube. maybe less getting boxes in delta. dont know dont care. but dont try to claim this sets any kind of ceiling whatsoever.

to use your idiot argument against you. do you think gold sellers are going to let prices drop back to what they were before when people can buy up hammers to get 200k per gold spent instantly?

Miugre - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Starrr - Harshlands wrote: »

yet again not a single intelligent thought. any gold price under 200k means the coin boxes have value. people will buy up gold until they can no longer make money from opening the boxes. coin boxes will make sure that prices never drop much below ~200k. 5 servers over 200k 1 under pretty much discredits your argument. maybe you have less people running cube. maybe less getting boxes in delta. dont know dont care. but dont try to claim this sets any kind of ceiling whatsoever.

to use your idiot argument against you. do you think gold sellers are going to let prices drop back to what they were before when people can buy up hammers to get 200k per gold spent instantly?

I hate to say it but Starrr is right, here. Once you hit 200k, the boxes are worthless. Therefore, gold will stay around 190k indefinitely because, when AH fees are included, that's about the highest price gold can be bought that still lets you make a profit off the boxes.

Why are they 225k on other servers? Because of JJ. Guardian Angels are not affected by the cube-chest line of reasoning. Gold could be 300k and it would still be cheaper to buy gold than to pay JJ 100k per spring pack.

The biggest problem right now is the cube chests, and the simple fact is that PWI needs to get rid of them. They should know better than to throw such a curveball to their own virtual economy. PWI doesn't gain anything by seeing gold prices rise, they make money either way. And if xarfox is to be believed, the staff genuinely cares about the problems of F2P players. Unfortunately, the GMs can't do anything about cube chests - that's handled by another authority. So what we need to do is get the attention of those powers-that-be. For starters, as soon as JJ is gone, we make a big poll thread saying "this many people demand that cube chests be removed from the game."

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Starrr - Harshlands wrote: »

yet again not a single intelligent thought. any gold price under 200k means the coin boxes have value. people will buy up gold until they can no longer make money from opening the boxes. coin boxes will make sure that prices never drop much below ~200k. 5 servers over 200k 1 under pretty much discredits your argument. maybe you have less people running cube. maybe less getting boxes in delta. dont know dont care. but dont try to claim this sets any kind of ceiling whatsoever.

to use your idiot argument against you. do you think gold sellers are going to let prices drop back to what they were before when people can buy up hammers to get 200k per gold spent instantly?

So you are saying that when gold is lower than 200k, people will buy gold until they no longer make a profit opening boxes, after gold reaches or surpasses 200k? So if gold sells for 190k, peoople will buy gold to get hammers to open boxes (since there is profit), and that will drive the price of gold UP until it reaches 200k, at which point people stop buying the gold for hammers. At which point, gold will slowly drop in price again until people start buying gold for hammers to open boxes once gold drops bellow 200k again.

Assuming there are no events that would increase the demand for gold going on(like HUGE sales, or jolly rogers), than you say that gold prices will be lower than 200k, since once gold prices go up and reach 200k people will no longer buy gold for hammers, right?

Buy orders in Santuary and HT are both at less than 200k, 180k for HT, 189k for sanc, while sell orders range from 183k-189k in HT and in Sanct from 190k to 200k (one unit of gold at 200k the majority are 190k-195k).

@Miugre. I agree that with you about gold prices staying higher than they used to be, however, 190k is not 200k.

Solandri - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Starrr - Harshlands wrote: »

yet again not a single intelligent thought. any gold price under 200k means the coin boxes have value. people will buy up gold until they can no longer make money from opening the boxes. coin boxes will make sure that prices never drop much below ~200k. 5 servers over 200k 1 under pretty much discredits your argument. maybe you have less people running cube. maybe less getting boxes in delta. dont know dont care. but dont try to claim this sets any kind of ceiling whatsoever.

to use your idiot argument against you. do you think gold sellers are going to let prices drop back to what they were before when people can buy up hammers to get 200k per gold spent instantly?

Keep in mind 1 or 2 of those servers had gold >200k before JJ and the coin boxes. The fact that the others (except HT) are over 200k in fact disproves your claim. Since the coin boxes can at most push the cost of gold to 200k, the fact that those servers are over 200k means something else has drive their prices higher. Like the JJ event.

In fact, right now, if HT is the only server with gold under 200k, then it's the *only* valid test case for the theory that the boxes will push gold prices to 200k. That they haven't on HT is pretty clear evidence that they will not on the other servers once the JJ event ends and their gold price drops below 200k.

You're also assuming an infinite supply of coin boxes with zero cost to acquire. Obviously that's not true. A bunch of cat shops in HT Cube are selling them for ~200k right now. At that price, for them to be profitable, gold would have to fall to 160k. So people are valuing the time they needed to obtain the box at somewhere between 100k-200k.

In addition, even if you assume all the boxes lower than 200k have sold, it still hasn't pushed HT's prices to 200k. So it actually seems to be the price of gold which is setting the price of the boxes, not vice versa. Thus implying that the supply of boxes is not enough to substantially influence the price of gold.

Koteto - Harshlands · August 2009

Jesseah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

^
^
Lucky man...people in dreamweaver are selling gold for effing 225k a pop....

youre lucky too in Harshalnds 1 gold is 280k-320kb:surrender

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary · August 2009

FionaCattail - Sanctuary wrote: »

currently, gold is 180k/G which in turn has risen the cost of GAs (30silver) to 100k each..

Do you mean people are selling GAs for 100k? Because that's just a complete rip-off price, and I doubt they'd actually be getting many sales. Most sellers seem to go for about 15% profit of so.

At 180k, Gold would cost you 183600 each because of the 2% Auction fee. GAs cost 29 silver when bought in 10 packs, so you get 3.45 GAs per Gold. 183600 / 3.45 = 53244 per GA. So a 15% mark-up would be around 60k.

FionaCattail - Sanctuary wrote: »

so, how is it that 6G is worth 2M when talkin about somethings, but 40-45G is worth that same 2M when talking about others?

Some cash shop items are tied to Gold prices because they're in constant need of replacement. Others never disappear and thus the market gets flooded with them.

For example, every time a new mount goes on sale people rush to buy it, leaving them with an extra mount to sell. Since you can't use two mounts at the same time it's of no use to them at all and they're willing to sell it for a loss.

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary · August 2009

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

In addition, even if you assume all the boxes lower than 200k have sold, it still hasn't pushed HT's prices to 200k. So it actually seems to be the price of gold which is setting the price of the boxes, not vice versa. Thus implying that the supply of boxes is not enough to substantially influence the price of gold.

Yesterday I bought 160 Gold on Sanctuary, while my gf bought 190 and my sister and friends bought perhaps 40 Gold each. This is only our daily purchase, mind you.

While converting the Gold into Spring Packs at Jolly Jones, I see many people doing the exact same thing. So we're only a small proportion of the mass-purchasers of Gold right now.

My point to this is that all of the arguments about Perfect Hammers being the driving force behind a ~200k Gold standard seem to have no clue about just how massive the effect Jolly Jones is having on Gold prices. I could go and buy every single cash box I can find on Sanctuary right now, and the total Gold I'd need to open them all would be nothing compared to how much Gold I'm using for Jolly Jones.

So, yeah, the supply of gold boxes isn't nearly enough to do what people think it is able to do. When Jolly Jones ends we'll see Gold prices drop and stay down.

Miugre - Heavens Tear · August 2009

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

So, yeah, the supply of gold boxes isn't nearly enough to do what people think it is able to do.

Can I see your proof of this? (I assume this is what you were bragging you had proof of in the other thread?)

Lady_Selan - Sanctuary · August 2009

Coin boxes worthless? Agreed....

Saw this when I logged on and logged back out. I don't even want to know what it says now.

trying to understand gold prices and people's mindsets

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