What are you capable of, and why?

2

Comments

  • OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear
    OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Literature - Harshlands wrote: »
    ...this is the flame. This and about 90% of your posts on this board.


    You know what they say about statistics, right?


    75% of all statistics are made up on the spot.


    Stop making stuff up.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Rule - Heavens Tear
    Rule - Heavens Tear Posts: 579 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Hello all,

    Lets not look at this thread as a bragging thread but one where we get to highlight our toons strengths.

    Now about my BM. I am an Axe BM who will be investing some SP in sword mastery soon. As far as skills go I am working on maxing all my stuns and AoE's I pick and choose as i see fit. My build is as follows for level 67.

    str 207
    dex 102
    vit 36
    mag 5



    In party's I take it upon myself to protect the squishy's. I let the kitty do the tanking( i can tank all fb's up to 51 but I usually don't; not my role, I can not tank the magic bosses like jewel, manta, etc...And there are a few i have not had the chance to do. Being as my buddy is a barb...he usually does the tanking for bosses)Anyways I digress, I often refer to myself as the skirmisher. Most of the time I can just AoE multiple mobs with tank and cleric will alternate heals. Yes I am a DD but more importantly if someone pulls aggro from tank to themselves its my job to stop that monster. This is where my stuns come greatly in handy. I can stun them long enough for either me or the Tank to pull aggro away from squad mate.....

    If we are fighting a boss and some adds show up; again its my job to let Barb bash away at boss and for me to run to protect the rest of our group. Cleric doesn't need to worry about me and can concentrate on barb till I clean up. Then back to old DD'n.

    Anyways, the only thing I notice about my build from the cookie cutter Axe Bm; is that i have lower vit. But i make up for this with HP shards in my gear. I think its a better route to take. I like to hit my targets.

    Other then that my build isn't anything too special. Its the player behind the build that makes a toon rock....or not.

    And remember most of all....Have fun playing your build!! Its what the game is really about.


    Any time you need a faction give me a shout. Outstanding!
  • mbrunestud
    mbrunestud Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I have played a lot with my BM toon and you will see how weird my stats are at 68:

    VIT: 3
    MAG:3
    STR:172
    DEX:177

    This allows me to make a good build for either fists or sword and use not too low level bows and poleaxe.

    So, I switch between Fists, Sword, Poleaxe and Bow on the single mob (LOL)

    What am I capable off:

    Well, I keep many people staring at me, either for being weird or for owning mobs and make it look easy and efficient.

    It's rare the day when somebody dont ask me:

    Why do you switch weapons? Some like it or find it unecesary as too much work.

    How many weapons do you have?

    How do you do that?

    I also switch armor from HA to LA depending on the case. For pure magic mob I use LA.


    What I'm not capable?: tanking for long, I suck so far at PVP since my skills are distributed on the sword/fists and axes. So, the attack skills that I have are not leveled too much.

    However, I will solve the skills issue as I get more spirits.

    rock on Granrey! i was thinking of trying this, and using refines/shards to make up for the hp but i got caught up too much in playing my other chars. glad to see this is working out for you cuz someday its gonna be working great for me b:victory
  • Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary
    Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Let me just say that there is more to building a char than stats, i play an arcane veno but consider myself far from cookiecutter. It's not just that there is itself variety amongst robe builds (spanning all the range from full vit to pure int) but gears, skills and pets are just as important. The question of what you're capable of depends on many factors including player's skill. Arcane veno is somewhat like playing the guitar, easy to learn yet one of the most difficult to master. The role of arcane in a squad is very complex, and a good arcane player can't afford the luxury of just hitting a macross on a boss fight for example; There's sparking, debuffing and DD to be taken care of, and i'm usually juggling 6-7 cooldowns on this situations. "I can make a squad's job easier and more efficient" may not seem like much of an acomplishment but it is, and most players don't realize to what an extent many venos fail at this. To disparage us as "hiding behind our pets" is disrespectful, i can deal with most mobs in no more than 2-3 shots without my pet, i can afford to take some hits and i'm far "from cowering in fear". To the OP, don't make yourself feel better about your build by making asumptions about what other players choose, fact is i can probably grind better and faster than you without a pet, and don't depend on it to deal damage. And for those posters who will suport just about everything, how bout bowbarian? Go bowbarian!
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Hey isala long time no see.

    We should duel again :P. (though id prolly win again lol)

    What I can do: Solo any boss that doesnt have a pdef debuff like krimson or FB 69 bosses, Solo any FB up to 89, Solo TT squad modes, solo my levels with relative ease (if i wasnt so darn lazy id be higher),survive most bosses AOEs unlike my cousin pure mag's without any vit. I can also PVP fairly decently, and thats about it. My specialty? Keeping enemies cursed and debuffed with both fox skills and mag skills ;D.

    What I cant do: ... Ill have to get back to you on that one, my only obstacle thus far is fighting bosses with those pdef debuffs :\.

    Without my pet and my pure mag, I was killing clam scouts for a quest last night in 3 hits :P. (They finished themselves off with bramble lol >.>)
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Just note one thing, here, Lit. I never said your build was boring, now did I? Second off, yes, I made this thread, and I explained why. You see this little thing called discussion going on? People are talking. From a post originally made by a Veno, people are giving specific details on what exactly they did to their BM build. That's what I wanted to flow here. Information. Boring, as you say, or exotic, every build has it's place in the game. And the more people understand about how this game works, and what exactly is, and isn't viable, the more likely you are to have a decent player beside you in a squad.

    And, yes. I'm well aware anything I can do, you can do better. I've seen several of your posts talking about exactly what it is you can do. Congratulations. You've taken what everyone considers the "Normal Veno Build" and proven that you aren't just another idiot who plugs away with it. Seriously, despite your trolling that you started with the first reply, I am happy for you. You've discovered how to play. b:victory Now stop trolling, and explain the highlights, and WHY it works, instead of just saying "It works, you suck."

    Lol...You wanna play word games now? Well I never said "It works, You Suck." Now did I?

    On my first post I asked whats the point of this thread after reading through all your bragging. You explained so then I posted about me. I posted what my build is and what I can do. I got it from these parts of your 1st post:
    Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »
    We've seen the threads talking about classes in general. They're a dime a dozen. So, I want to know about you, the individual. What are you good, and bad at, and why? How did you build your character, and how do you play it? Where do you shine, and where do you fail?

    So, how about you? We have anyone here that sets a glowing standard? Do you make your build look good? When someone has a task, do they turn to you for your help? Brag a little. Let loose, and tell us what makes you, well, YOU.

    Please tell me where I was wrong in my post describing my char, considering what you first posted. I can't help it that you got offended because my standard char does what your LA build can do...and more. b:chuckle

    I think I make a pure mag build look very good. ;o
  • AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear
    AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,413 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Literature - Harshlands wrote: »

    Basically I can do everything that your wierd LA build can do, and more.


    Look I will try to play the role of mediator here. I don't usually do this. So here's my best try at it.

    I think that this is the comment that is most likely causing the descent between you two. (well besides the first reply)

    In retrospect perhaps you can look back and say it was unnecessary to add that comment as it doesn't really add to your build description, how you play, etc..etc...

    I believe the heart of this thread isn't about who's build is better or I can do this and you can't. Its about informing all of us how you play, why you play that way, etc.... etc...
    Literature - Harshlands wrote: »

    I can't help it that you got offended because my standard char does what your LA build can do...and more.

    This is what you call an passive aggressive response. Remember we are on the internet and voice infliction, connotation, sarcasm, and some jokes just don't come across well...

    Can we stop the continuation of this chain of flame here and continue to see outstanding posts by more individuals like Granery. Which by the way I must comment about; Dude... your build and playing style all I can say is wow. It's so different from mine. I can see what you are trying to accomplish. You must have some major combo's made to keep up with all that interchanging of skills and weapons. Keep it up man. I want to see how it turns out in your 8x's.

    And to Rule - thanks man. I am already in a great Faction. So for now I will have to decline.

    Now lets roll on. Who has the next interesting build/playing style to share.....!!
    Retired

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FoxRunning - Heavens Tear
    FoxRunning - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    im lv65, and use both skilltrees as well. most of the time, i run as caster, and in FBs, go fox to help with bosses with my debuffs and pet. for me, whats the point of being a fox, without actually fighting as one at least some of the time. ^_^ its much more fun-there are a zillion people in the game, standing round, waving wands, etc, while there i am, scooting under the big boys, letting the air out of their tires! b:chuckle
    Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary wrote: »
    While i apreciate the intent behind your post and really don't mean to rain on your parade, i do feel like making a couple of observations. LA, even if not at your level, plus vit seems like a bad idea. As an arcane at your same level i can solo all of the bosses you mentioned except for Kimsa (need an extra veno to help me heal) and slyther (AoE gets me) using nothing but a few pots and an ocassional flourish orb (for slitt). I don't see any advantage in tanking yourself as pet heal is a far more efficient way to deal with damage than what mp a cleric would spend healing you, not to mention the added cost of repair bills. As for the extra survivability, i can deal with as much as 3-4 extra mobs at my range with a build that is int at above my level times 4 (36 vit) using soul transfussion or bramble hood and hp pots. Limiting your capacity to grind and solo TT for no real advantage doesn't seem like a good strategy, and this is in part the reason foxform is not recomended until 70+, and then adding no vit. I hope my comment didn't seem mean to you, it's just my intention to point out some of the flaws on the build you described to help you improve it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    (and hugs to Flauschkatze for the sig!)
    "Thanks for writing me-- it's always great to hear from a vet.

    -FrankieRaye"
    Playing here since '08b:heart
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    I for one, personally dislike your build lit. It sounds way too much like a water balloon. Poke it a little and it goes BOOOM. I mean, right now Ive stopped on mag @ ~ 320, working at getting vit to 150, and might I tell you, hp is the biggest benefit to the restructuring of my build Ill never regret.

    I can pull dimentora without having to worrying, on vitless build I go boom, (refering to your I CANNOT PULL DIMENTORA THREADS)

    Though, to each their own as they say, Ill stick to what I do, and you stick to what you do <:.
  • Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary
    Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Damewort - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Surfer_Rosa - have you ever heard about "thinking outside the box"? Barb doesn't mean only tank, cleric doesn't mean only healer, BM doesn't mean only DD dealer. Where's the fun if you blindly follow the guildelines just to create character "fit the most to their purpose"? Those who created "guidelines" went throught experiments to create those builds. It is only natural that some other players wants to move on and maybe create a new build through experiments. Seeking for the improvements, moves the world. If you don't dare to try something new, then don't bash those who actually dares to try.

    Of course, barb in arcane armour and magic weapon or cleric with axes is bit weird.

    In order to break the rules, you should understand what the rules are first. I know my example may seem like a stretch, but you can't revolutionize science or the arts before first studying canon, there may seem like there are some exceptions to the rule but there really aren't, look at Picasso's very early work. A new or experimental build should have a functional basis on reality (e.g. stats) and how it may be possible for it to acomplish it's intent. In order for a veno to function (e.g. use either foxform or caster skills) she needs to equip a magic weapon at least some of the time. This is compatible with an LA build only if vit is left out of the equation. What makes this work is the fact that you can efficiently get HP from sharding and refining your gear. Adding vit at the cost of your main stat (mag) for no benefit is an idea which does seem unsound to me, as the only thing that the op seems to have acomplished is the ability to tank with the aid of a cleric what another veno her own level could solo just using her pet. Considering how her build cannot function in ways a conventional LA build could (like soloing TT) i am only expressing my opinion that her abilities are in fact inferior to those of other players using her class at the same level.
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I for one, personally dislike your build lit. It sounds way too much like a water balloon. Poke it a little and it goes BOOOM. I mean, right now Ive stopped on mag @ ~ 320, working at getting vit to 150, and might I tell you, hp is the biggest benefit to the restructuring of my build Ill never regret.

    I can pull dimentora without having to worrying, on vitless build I go boom, (refering to your I CANNOT PULL DIMENTORA THREADS)

    Though, to each their own as they say, Ill stick to what I do, and you stick to what you do <:.

    That was simply because I couldn't get it pulled right. I would stick around for too long trying to position it and my bramble would wear off. But like I posted, I learned and did that boss. He has been done several times since then.

    Unless you mean you can do it without bramble with your vit build? O_o
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    I can take 2 hits without bramble, but with it on, I can handle about 7 :P Plenty of room for marginal positioning error
  • Granrey - Sanctuary
    Granrey - Sanctuary Posts: 2,050 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Can we stop the continuation of this chain of flame here and continue to see outstanding posts by more individuals like Granery. Which by the way I must comment about; Dude... your build and playing style all I can say is wow. It's so different from mine. I can see what you are trying to accomplish. You must have some major combo's made to keep up with all that interchanging of skills and weapons. Keep it up man. I want to see how it turns out in your 8x's.

    thanks for the comment. I have many happy stories which I usually share in different treads but a good one happend last friday. I know it looks like from movie.

    I was in FB 29 with a good barb 60+, 30+ cleric and other low level squad mates. There was no Veno for pulling I think.

    We are in front of the final chamber full of those magic mobs the barb said: "Who has AOE?" I said: "I do but they suck since each of them is level 1 as they are not my main built"

    He said:"well we are here and that's better than nothing. So, lets do it"

    Honestly, I thought we were going to get killed.

    Well, armor wise I switched from HA to LA. and weapon I went to poleaxe.

    As soon as we enter I used one spark plus two combos

    I applied my axes combo first: high land cleave, fissure, Drake sweep, Fan of flames.*

    Then I switch to fists and applied my fists combo: cyclone heel, drake sweep and fan of flames.

    After the two combos, all the minions were dead, I know my guildmates were the main killers but my help was really good as I was helping with AOE on every mob.

    They told me good job and I felt like I was Rambo (as I have been called before)b:cute

    On the initital stages of the FB, I was killing the mobs with HA and sword/fists plus my bow in minor degree.

    *I'm not sure this is the order but those are the skills, the combo will repeat the first skill but stop after for the next being in cooldown.
  • Damewort - Sanctuary
    Damewort - Sanctuary Posts: 573 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary wrote: »
    In order to break the rules, you should understand what the rules are first. I know my example may seem like a stretch, but you can't revolutionize science or the arts before first studying canon, there may seem like there are some exceptions to the rule but there really aren't, look at Picasso's very early work. A new or experimental build should have a functional basis on reality (e.g. stats) and how it may be possible for it to acomplish it's intent. In order for a veno to function (e.g. use either foxform or caster skills) she needs to equip a magic weapon at least some of the time. This is compatible with an LA build only if vit is left out of the equation. What makes this work is the fact that you can efficiently get HP from sharding and refining your gear. Adding vit at the cost of your main stat (mag) for no benefit is an idea which does seem unsound to me, as the only thing that the op seems to have acomplished is the ability to tank with the aid of a cleric what another veno her own level could solo just using her pet. Considering how her build cannot function in ways a conventional LA build could (like soloing TT) i am only expressing my opinion that her abilities are in fact inferior to those of other players using her class at the same level.

    I agree that there is a need of "base knowledge" and that there should be a reason how you distributed the skill points. This would prove that the experiment had some meaning and it wasn't just wandering in darkness. For a veno "base knowledge" is connected with "base tasks" - pulling, "crippling", DD. No matter what kind of build you have, you must be able to do these tasks. How and what you do in your "solo" time doesn't matter as long as you enjoy it. Builds are just most common playstyles, not "base knowledge"

    I have run quite a lot fbs with him and we have killed bosses too. From my experience, his veno is more like supportive one and more effective in squads. His vit come handy when something goes wrong at we need to regroup (while he is kitting the bosss). He does pulling and "crippling" quite well too. His attacks aren't that strong so he can't steal aggro, but still does quite nice additional damage. As for pet, he has invested a lot in them, as far as I know, so often they make up for his missing damage.
  • Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary
    Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Well i believe that i have more than broadly expressed my objections towards the use of the OP's build, and that any further discourse on the issue would be but to encourage animosity. I would however like to address it in what relates to Damewort's view on what "base tasks" signify in measuring a build's efectiveness. I disagree in that either pulling or "cripling" can be used in this sense, as both are factors independent of build. Ability to pull relies solely on a pet's stats (namely speed and accuracy) while the main fox form debuffs (Amplify Damage and Purge) are based solely on level and spiritual cultivation. Pet skills (Howl, Threaten) are also unrelated to build and the main caster debuff (Ironwood Scarab) relies on build only for it's damage dealing component, and can be easily replaced (Pierce). This leaves us with Damage as the only proposed factor actually related to choices in stat point allocation. Conventional LA builds stat 6 mag every 2 levels which is generally considered low damage, this is the standard by which LA variations should be measured. I don't see that any dps output below this could be considered "nice" regardless of what damage a pet does as this last factor, i repeat, remains independent of build.
  • Nayiro - Sanctuary
    Nayiro - Sanctuary Posts: 1,275 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    My BM is a DD, fist build with heavy armor and decent (4.1k) hp
    My Veno is a Mag. Vit Build and at lvl 26 has 96 mag and 25 vit

    I'm ****ing amazing at PvE.

    I suck **** at PvP (1v1, not mass)
    Back.
  • Sibyl - Heavens Tear
    Sibyl - Heavens Tear Posts: 74 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Darn, I think I gimped my build =(
    http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo230/EvilPacman_bucket/2009-04-1820-19-38.jpg
    But seriously, I'm a mag veno with lots of vit. I have 59 vit (with equips, without is like 38 or so), 300 mag (with equips, I have no idea what it is without, lol), like... 45 str (with equips, without's like 41), and 5 dex. I find I can kill things fast enough, but if my pet dies I can survive long enough to either kill the mob or revive my pet (with or without bramble =P).
    Level 74 before genies showed up o.o
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Sibyl - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Darn, I think I gimped my build =(
    http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo230/EvilPacman_bucket/2009-04-1820-19-38.jpg
    But seriously, I'm a mag veno with lots of vit. I have 59 vit (with equips, without is like 38 or so), 300 mag (with equips, I have no idea what it is without, lol), like... 45 str (with equips, without's like 41), and 5 dex. I find I can kill things fast enough, but if my pet dies I can survive long enough to either kill the mob or revive my pet (with or without bramble =P).

    similar to my build, im at 91 vit, and 320 mag right now, same dex and str
  • Kurin - Lost City
    Kurin - Lost City Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    hey guys an gals, i dunno why ppl care so much about this. Each character is ment to be personal in nature an played anyway you want. i mean you can have a mage specail in a lil str if you wanna get up close, a barb like me who can tank an dd ya kno? its all on how you wanna play itb:pleased




    " our lifes are made on the ones that die"
    -leonardo davienceb:angry
  • Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary
    Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Lol, it would seem like we care too much. I must stress people are perfectly free to do whatever they want within TOS, and that the discussion is not so much about what people should do but about what works best.
  • Imortalz - Harshlands
    Imortalz - Harshlands Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    ok stats

    str 113
    vit 123
    mag 5
    Dex61

    i care less what ppl think i love to grind all the time heheb:dirty grind is funy
    and easyb:kiss
  • Isala - Sanctuary
    Isala - Sanctuary Posts: 1,607 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Well i believe that i have more than broadly expressed my objections towards the use of the OP's build, and that any further discourse on the issue would be but to encourage animosity. I would however like to address it in what relates to Damewort's view on what "base tasks" signify in measuring a build's efectiveness. I disagree in that either pulling or "cripling" can be used in this sense, as both are factors independent of build. Ability to pull relies solely on a pet's stats (namely speed and accuracy) while the main fox form debuffs (Amplify Damage and Purge) are based solely on level and spiritual cultivation. Pet skills (Howl, Threaten) are also unrelated to build and the main caster debuff (Ironwood Scarab) relies on build only for it's damage dealing component, and can be easily replaced (Pierce). This leaves us with Damage as the only proposed factor actually related to choices in stat point allocation. Conventional LA builds stat 6 mag every 2 levels which is generally considered low damage, this is the standard by which LA variations should be measured. I don't see that any dps output below this could be considered "nice" regardless of what damage a pet does as this last factor, i repeat, remains independent of build.

    Yes, Damage is the problem here. But, when fighting with another Veno, and neither of us are the main tank? While the other Veno can use her spells, I can stay in Fox Form and use another completely different set of Debuffs that come with your actual attacks. In fact, 95% I'm not the main tank on a boss, I am in Fox Form FIGHTING. Not just popping a debuff and going away. And I can do this through pretty much any AoE. I have my Melee Mastery maxed out at 10, and a ton of my LA gear has Extra Str, while my AA gear has Extra Mag. I have recognized the weakness of my build, and have found ways to work around it. My pet bag is filled with more than just the classic golem, and most of those, are there for the various Debuffs they have. I use a Sower of the Flame with Howl to cripple Magic Defense so I can hit harder. I use an Undine Tide Mistress with Threaten to help anyone tank. I just helped a Barb fight Kong yesterday, sitting right beside him with an Undine using Threaten, and me using Befuddling Mist to lower his Accuracy, Amp, to cause more damage, and in the off time of Amp, I stopped the boss's HP regeneration.

    Right now? Yes, compared to most of the Venos out there, I am, and will be for a while, weaker. But, I will say one thing. I just fought an Archer equal to my level in Fox Form. I won. The anti Veno class couldn't get through my Vit, and equipment. Once I go Sage, that Extra 200% physical defense boost you get in Fox Form will make me an even better tank, and once I get ahold of that 100% Leech Spell? My higher HP will make me a much, much better tank.

    So, while, yes, I completely agree with all of you wondering what point there is to my build, and in fact, never argued with you that it is severely flawed, I'm looking at the endgame here. And with the way I'm set up now? I see a very, very bright future for the way I play.

    Also, Tear? I'd absolutely love to fight you again. I've got a few tricks up my sleeves that I didn't have last time. And I've been wanting a rematch myself.
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Yes, Damage is the problem here. But, when fighting with another Veno, and neither of us are the main tank? While the other Veno can use her spells, I can stay in Fox Form and use another completely different set of Debuffs that come with your actual attacks. In fact, 95% I'm not the main tank on a boss, I am in Fox Form FIGHTING. Not just popping a debuff and going away. And I can do this through pretty much any AoE. I have my Melee Mastery maxed out at 10, and a ton of my LA gear has Extra Str, while my AA gear has Extra Mag. I have recognized the weakness of my build, and have found ways to work around it. My pet bag is filled with more than just the classic golem, and most of those, are there for the various Debuffs they have. I use a Sower of the Flame with Howl to cripple Magic Defense so I can hit harder. I use an Undine Tide Mistress with Threaten to help anyone tank. I just helped a Barb fight Kong yesterday, sitting right beside him with an Undine using Threaten, and me using Befuddling Mist to lower his Accuracy, Amp, to cause more damage, and in the off time of Amp, I stopped the boss's HP regeneration.

    Right now? Yes, compared to most of the Venos out there, I am, and will be for a while, weaker. But, I will say one thing. I just fought an Archer equal to my level in Fox Form. I won. The anti Veno class couldn't get through my Vit, and equipment. Once I go Sage, that Extra 200% physical defense boost you get in Fox Form will make me an even better tank, and once I get ahold of that 100% Leech Spell? My higher HP will make me a much, much better tank.

    So, while, yes, I completely agree with all of you wondering what point there is to my build, and in fact, never argued with you that it is severely flawed, I'm looking at the endgame here. And with the way I'm set up now? I see a very, very bright future for the way I play.

    Also, Tear? I'd absolutely love to fight you again. I've got a few tricks up my sleeves that I didn't have last time. And I've been wanting a rematch myself.

    Thats the way you wanna play I guess. O_o But as a pure mag I have all my fox skills atleast halfway maxed. I could do the same thing but I think it's better to add dps with nukes. b:shocked

    That would be a kickass build for a pvp server. And you really should consider getting a nix. And as far as pvp as a robe...fighting other robes or archers is no problem. Very rarely do they try to steal a spot or something because we could just go back and forth killing each other. And for barbs / bms you can just spark to kill them.
  • Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary
    Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    I was content to leave things stand but then you had to go and use all caps to write fighting. Are you implying that's not what arcane does? Stop demeaning a build you obviously don't understand, and please stop with all the ridiculous claims, survive through any AoE? Can you take on Soulbanisher's without a cleric healing you? Cuz i can do it that way too. Happy was right, you're just trying to boost your ego. And what's the deal with all these dueling you keep bragging about? Are you implying your build can defeat barbs and archers? FYI dueling is a neat feature but it's not actually considered pvp. How would you defeat a barb or an archer in the first place if you can't deal damage? debuff them to death? oh, wait, did you just send your pet in while you kited in fox form? Melee mastery and str add ons won't do it, prove me wrong. What's your dps output? How much do you crit for? You do know other classes get sage and demon skills as well... I have nothing but respect for venos who choose fox forms builds as they require the skill and dedication to find a balance in between survivability and attack. A BALANCE, something your build obviously lacks...
  • Isala - Sanctuary
    Isala - Sanctuary Posts: 1,607 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I was content to leave things stand but then you had to go and use all caps to write fighting. Are you implying that's not what arcane does? Stop demeaning a build you obviously don't understand, and please stop with all the ridiculous claims, survive through any AoE? Can you take on Soulbanisher's without a cleric healing you? Cuz i can do it that way too. Happy was right, you're just trying to boost your ego. And what's the deal with all these dueling you keep bragging about? Are you implying your build can defeat barbs and archers? FYI dueling is a neat feature but it's not actually considered pvp. How would you defeat a barb or an archer in the first place if you can't deal damage? debuff them to death? oh, wait, did you just send your pet in while you kited in fox form? Melee mastery and str add ons won't do it, prove me wrong. What's your dps output? How much do you crit for? You do know other classes get sage and demon skills as well... I have nothing but respect for venos who choose fox forms builds as they require the skill and dedication to find a balance in between survivability and attack. A BALANCE, something your build obviously lacks...

    No, I wasn't implying that that's what an Arcane build does. I was implying that I was slugging it out, using my extra strength. And, I never said I don't deal damage, just that it's nowhere near yours. As for how to defeat Archers? I fought him in Fox Form with a Golem. All it took was Befuddling Mist to keep his Accuracy Down enough he couldn't hit me, Purge away his own Buffs, and use Leech to keep my own HP up high enough. Head to head, in his face. And no, I can't defeat Barbs with Charm in PvP. As far as I know, it takes a few people to do the job, normally.

    And I'm going to say this very, very plainly so that everyone here will stop being butthurt about what everyone is trying to say.

    I'm not bashing your builds. All I'm trying to do is explain my reasoning for what you are showing as a weakness. You point out a weakness, I explain why, while yes, it is a weakness, but it allows me to do "this".

    As for Soulbanisher's AoE, I'm not sure. The only time I've bothered to fight him was about 3 hours ago. But that was 1-3 squad mode. And, yes, I had a cleric using BB. But I didn't even come close to having my charm tick, even near the end when he increases his damage.

    And, really, I don't have to boost my ego. I'm playing my build my way, you're playing your build your way, we both are probably called upon to do different things for different people. I tank bosses with my body, you tank them with your pet. Either way? The boss dies. We can all pretty much agree that given the choice between either of us trying to tank bosses, a barb and cleric combo can do the job much better than either of us. So, relax, I'm not attacking you. I'm not attacking any of you. All we both know is the view we see from our own eyes. I see myself standing up to alot of damage, you see yourself as dishing it out, and keeping your pet, who takes the damage, alive. I know that you're probably a much better Magic Tank than I am, as well.

    But what I know is this. Along side me in that 1-3 run was another Veno close to my level. A Robe build. She died to Drum's AoE, while I was still standing.

    When you have the tanks in the party apologize and warn you that you're going to die to an AoE, and you're still alive at the end, I'd call that a success.
  • Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary
    Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Am i to take it that archer was just standing there in shocked disbelief as you defeated him/her using a magmite? *rolls eyes* Do you honestly believe you could pull that on a somewhat experienced pvper? From your comments you do seem to be a smart and resourceful player and i'm well aware that stubborness may oftentimes be the sign of an intelligent person. You posted your build and what it could do, and by doing so were obviously inviting critique. Let me ask you this, why would you choose your build over heavy fox? You've often pointed to your tanking prowess which heavy can do a much better job at while still mantainig a decent damage output and a veno's pve proficiency. I'm not saying is easy, heavy foxes are elite and to just be able to use both heavy armor and a magic weapon your level is a feat worthy of an acomplished player. There is not a single way in which your "unique" build is better than this "cookiecutter" veno stapple. Most of the strategies you've listed as using can be applied not only by the more well known fox form builds but by robe venos as well. The arcane veno you mentioned as dying to Soulbanisher's AoE may have not known better than to use fox form herself, may have relied on BB alone instead of also potting or may have left her mp bar go down to a point where soul transfussion was no longer an option, i don't know. A single player's performance can't be considered representative of a build's performance, but hard numbers can be.
  • Isala - Sanctuary
    Isala - Sanctuary Posts: 1,607 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Am i to take it that archer was just standing there in shocked disbelief as you defeated him/her using a magmite? *rolls eyes* Do you honestly believe you could pull that on a somewhat experienced pvper? From your comments you do seem to be a smart and resourceful player and i'm well aware that stubborness may oftentimes be the sign of an intelligent person. You posted your build and what it could do, and by doing so were obviously inviting critique. Let me ask you this, why would you choose your build over heavy fox? You've often pointed to your tanking prowess which heavy can do a much better job at while still mantainig a decent damage output and a veno's pve proficiency. I'm not saying is easy, heavy foxes are elite and to just be able to use both heavy armor and a magic weapon your level is a feat worthy of an acomplished player. There is not a single way in which your "unique" build is better than this "cookiecutter" veno stapple. Most of the strategies you've listed as using can be applied not only by the more well known fox form builds but by robe venos as well. The arcane veno you mentioned as dying to Soulbanisher's AoE may have not known better than to use fox form herself, may have relied on BB alone instead of also potting or may have left her mp bar go down to a point where soul transfussion was no longer an option, i don't know. A single player's performance can't be considered representative of a build's performance, but hard numbers can be.

    You can believe what you wish about the archer, it's okay. It was just a passing comment. Because, ironically, the thing that worries me most in PvP isn't Archers, or Barbs, or even BMs... It's other Venos and Clerics.

    As for the heavy build? While I know that it is superior in tanking to my build, in every single way imaginable, I find it too limiting. Several of the mobs around our level cast, and melee. Equipping LA allows me to deal with both, and the extra Dex I have increases my accuracy and evasion. Now, I know about equipping a combination of HA, and AA, to achieve an even greater Resistance. And, yes, I could probably work wonders with that. But as I enjoy being an evasive tank, it is much more worth it, to me, at least, not to have to take every bit of damage, but to avoid it, and have every one of my attacks connect. Going HA would require me to completely drop my Vit, to accomodate the Str and Mag I'd have to put into it.

    So, let's ignore builds, and look at it from a complete Heal to Tank ratio. As long as the Cleric can cast the exact same spell on different tank, and have it do the exact same amount of healing, and keep the tank from running out of HP, does it really matter whether the reason is HP or defense? When a cleric can heal you for say, 1500, and the mob hits you for 1400, and you have 3600 hp, is it different in the end to the cleric healing you for 1500, the mob hitting you for 600, and you having 2000 hp?

    Which relates to the Arcane Veno I was referring to. She actually had more HP than I did. As far as I could tell, both her, and the cleric beside her went from Full, to Dead, in a matter of seconds. It wasn't a matter of having time to pot. It was full, dead. Just like that. I believe the general consensus at that point from all of us, was "WTF was that?!"

    And I am inviting people to tear apart my build. Poke as many holes into it as you want. Everything you point out to me is one more thing I can attempt to fix. In the long run, everything you point out to me that is wrong is something that I don't have to find out later when I fail. So, please, tear away. Don't hold back. Point out every single thing you can.

    Now, aside from yours and my discussion, I have a question for all the clerics out there. What is the optimal build for surviving AoE's while keeping the tank alive? Because I've been wondering about this for a while, with all the bosses and such with horrible AoE's.
  • Rillien - Heavens Tear
    Rillien - Heavens Tear Posts: 569 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Clerics have their own build debates concerning this, but the general consensus is that a vit build (either 6 mag, 3 vit, 1 str or 7 mag, 2 vit, 1 str every 2 levels) is the best way to go for survivability. Each point of vit adds on 10 hp points, which is a low modifier compared to other classes, but it seems to do the job well enough.

    I'm a LA cleric, which some people seem to hate and some people seem to love. But I can say that for physical AOEs like drum in TT having the extra phys defense certainly helps reduce damage. I shard my armour with hp gems to make up for the lack of vit, and I haven't had too much of a problem. I love being able to take a few hits from phys mobs without worry.

    Basically the issue for clerics is having enough hp to avoid being one-shotted due to boss AOEs, but there's definitely more than one way to accomplish this.
  • cathbar
    cathbar Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Rillien, if you wouldn't mind, could you list a few successful ways of doing so? I'm sort of (and by sort of I mean "I am") a new player, and my favorite class so far is the Cleric. So I'd really appreciate seeing how other people play to get some ideas for myself.
  • Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary
    Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    evasive tank?! Rofl! I don't know that the amount of dex required to wear LA would justify your saying that, but the general consensus seems to be that evasion becomes significant only when stating massive amounts of Dex (archers, some bm builds) as it stands i don't think the diference when compared to HA is large enough that it couldn't be made up by wearing a +evasion ornament tho it probably wouldn't be worth it to do so... As for phys def vs hp chances are a good heavy has just as much hp as you. It's basically more efficient to up your hp by refining/sharding your armor than it is to raise your phys def by similar means. Higher def means a larger damage reduction which is better at dealing with spiked damage or the cleric having to skip a few heals for whatever reason. Robes are prefered for tanking bosses like mantavip despite a barbarian's overwhelmingly larger hp pool which goes to prove that hp only goes so far. Lol i shudder to think you might one day become a politician, you have such a knack for spin. Anyway, kudos to you, i really think it's useless to continue on this subject as i see there really is no way you could possibly admit that your build is not all you crank it up to be. Peace and best of lucks (i do mean it).

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