Collapsing the Wave Pacer market
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary
Posts: 1,686 Arc User
OK, as a buyer/seller that focuses on high-demand items at premium prices, I get a bunch of angry, foul-mouthed, and vitriolic messages left in my catshop from time to time, but there's only been one case severe enough that I actually took screenshots and submitted a ticket for abusive behaviour.
Contrary to what you might expect, it wasn't because of high prices. In fact, it was because I was in Lost City one day and saw that Wave Pacer prices were averaging over 80k.
Now, to me, that's exploitive pricing. My personal standard ethical test for whether I'm being explotive is to ask myself the following question: are people buying because they are impatient, or are they buying because they don't know any better?
I estimate that if somebody is paying more than 40k for a Wave Pacer (and even that seems high to me) it can't be because they're impatient, but rather it must be because they don't know they can get one from an NPC quest for 10 Dull Claws (which sell for about 4k each). Hence I feel they're being exploited.
So anyway, getting back to my story, what did I do when I saw 80k Wave Pacers for sale? Well, I decided to collapse the market.
I went and bought a bunch of Wave Pacers from the NPC for 20k each and filled up my inventory. I then found a catshop with the title "FlyMnt Cheap!" selling Wave Pacers for 100k each (*spittake!*) and set up my own shop beside it: "FlyMount 26k".
Sure enough, the next morning I got up and found I had only 2 Wave Pacers left.
However, I also found out that apparently I have a large amount of **** where my head should be, that my character was soon going to be pk'd, that somebody in real-life was searching for me and I better watch out, and finally that I have inappropriate intimate relations with my mother who is in fact a prostitute and a (highly offensive racist comment ommitted).
This information came to me courtesy of Mr. 100k Wave Pacer, who I found had moved his shop to the other side of the city and lowered his prices to 80k. I took a screenshot and submitted a ticket, whereby I soon received two responses ensuring me that PWI would be investigating the user, along with a simultaneous message asking me to rate how well PWI had done in addressing the now-fully-resolved issue.
Now, I know some people are sitting there thinking, "26k is still a ripoff! You should be selling them at-cost out of the goodness of your heart!" My response is: go ahead, I won't stop you. But the other ripoff sellers will, because they'll just buy you out.
Anyway, I kept selling at 26k and after a couple of days prices were down to about 35k. Still high, but better.
My name isn't "Sisyphus", so after a week of this I gave up. Selling Wave Pacers at 26k in Lost City is an OK money-maker, but there are much better markets out there, so this whole exercise was actually costing me money in the long run.
The net result? Prices are back up, the newbies are getting exploited buying Wave Pacers they probably can't use yet, and Mr. 100k Wave Pacer is probably doing just fine.
So what would happen if you, dear reader, were to take up my cause and also sell Wave Pacers for cheap? Well, two things: First, people will send you hate messages for collapsing the Wave Pacer market; and Second, people will send you hate messages for ripping off the newbies by not selling them for 20k. Either way you win. b:victory
Contrary to what you might expect, it wasn't because of high prices. In fact, it was because I was in Lost City one day and saw that Wave Pacer prices were averaging over 80k.
Now, to me, that's exploitive pricing. My personal standard ethical test for whether I'm being explotive is to ask myself the following question: are people buying because they are impatient, or are they buying because they don't know any better?
I estimate that if somebody is paying more than 40k for a Wave Pacer (and even that seems high to me) it can't be because they're impatient, but rather it must be because they don't know they can get one from an NPC quest for 10 Dull Claws (which sell for about 4k each). Hence I feel they're being exploited.
So anyway, getting back to my story, what did I do when I saw 80k Wave Pacers for sale? Well, I decided to collapse the market.
I went and bought a bunch of Wave Pacers from the NPC for 20k each and filled up my inventory. I then found a catshop with the title "FlyMnt Cheap!" selling Wave Pacers for 100k each (*spittake!*) and set up my own shop beside it: "FlyMount 26k".
Sure enough, the next morning I got up and found I had only 2 Wave Pacers left.
However, I also found out that apparently I have a large amount of **** where my head should be, that my character was soon going to be pk'd, that somebody in real-life was searching for me and I better watch out, and finally that I have inappropriate intimate relations with my mother who is in fact a prostitute and a (highly offensive racist comment ommitted).
This information came to me courtesy of Mr. 100k Wave Pacer, who I found had moved his shop to the other side of the city and lowered his prices to 80k. I took a screenshot and submitted a ticket, whereby I soon received two responses ensuring me that PWI would be investigating the user, along with a simultaneous message asking me to rate how well PWI had done in addressing the now-fully-resolved issue.
Now, I know some people are sitting there thinking, "26k is still a ripoff! You should be selling them at-cost out of the goodness of your heart!" My response is: go ahead, I won't stop you. But the other ripoff sellers will, because they'll just buy you out.
Anyway, I kept selling at 26k and after a couple of days prices were down to about 35k. Still high, but better.
My name isn't "Sisyphus", so after a week of this I gave up. Selling Wave Pacers at 26k in Lost City is an OK money-maker, but there are much better markets out there, so this whole exercise was actually costing me money in the long run.
The net result? Prices are back up, the newbies are getting exploited buying Wave Pacers they probably can't use yet, and Mr. 100k Wave Pacer is probably doing just fine.
So what would happen if you, dear reader, were to take up my cause and also sell Wave Pacers for cheap? Well, two things: First, people will send you hate messages for collapsing the Wave Pacer market; and Second, people will send you hate messages for ripping off the newbies by not selling them for 20k. Either way you win. b:victory
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com
Post edited by WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary on
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Comments
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It's funny how people like that love to rip other players off but when another player does something like sell for a lower price, which is perfectly normal market competition, they go completely crazy because they can't get rich with their scam.Main characters
Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
Sage Barbarian Malego - 910 -
Excuse me, Mr. "I sell Dull Claws for 9250ish", I'm not sure I heard you right.
I might not know where you set your cat-shop up at, but, according to your posts it would cost someone 92k to do the first wave pacer quest if they bought from you, but that's ok since it's their choice to buy from you, right?
But it's not ok for someone to charge 100k for the wave pacer?
Even at 35k it's still not ok even though it would run 40k-50k to buy dull claws from most cat shops (4-6k, 5k avg)?
No, it wasn't right for them to leave those messages, but complaining about it when you do the same thing....yeah.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I'm actually shocked you really think you're making money. You do know in game coins have no real value. The way you talk about buying and selling in a virtual enviroment with coins that have no value whatsoever screams "I HAVE NO LIFE"...0
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I'm doing material reselling, and you know what I do when someone setup a shop with better prices beside me ? I BUY ALL OF HIS STUFF. He's happy, he sold everything, and I'm happy because I get more customers. haha (In the end it costs me nothing, I just gain a bit less in the long run).
And the people setting cat shops with outrageous (sp) prices (like purified oil at 5k each), they probably sell a lot less since I'm there.
- Amy0 -
Amy_Nailo - Lost City wrote: »I'm doing material reselling, and you know what I do when someone setup a shop with better prices beside me ? I BUY ALL OF HIS STUFF. He's happy, he sold everything, and I'm happy because I get more customers. haha (In the end it costs me nothing, I just gain a bit less in the long run).
And the people setting cat shops with outrageous (sp) prices (like purified oil at 5k each), they probably sell a lot less since I'm there.
- Amy
Depending on what the item is though, they can ensure you never sell anything. If they can supply an endless amount of it, you can try to buy it all you want but in the end you'll have used up all your money and they'll still be next to you selling cheaper which just made you broke.b:laughMain characters
Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
Sage Barbarian Malego - 910 -
Ok, I'ld like to see them do it, seriously. especially since I sell much lower than the cost of the Mats in Boutique, I wonder how they gonna get so many mats that I can't buy them all :-p
On top of that it would probably be waste of money on their part too
- Amy0 -
Amy_Nailo - Lost City wrote: »Ok, I'ld like to see them do it, seriously. especially since I sell much lower than the cost of the Mats in Boutique, I wonder how they gonna get so many mats that I can't buy them all :-p
On top of that it would probably be waste of money on their part too
- Amy
Is there really no room in the realm of possibility for there to be more than a single player selling lower than you using matts they farmed? If this is the case then they aren't losing out on anything, and, at some point, you'd have to stop buying them all out because your ability to turn a profit/buy them out would start to evaporate as you bought more and more with less and less to show for it.
Especially if your intention is to monopolize the market.
Other than that, wouldn't it be better to let the players who need to craft something have the lower prices instead of you buying them out constantly and having them pay more? Not everything has to be pushed to the highest prices possible.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Lies! I sold them for 9750, not 9250!OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »Excuse me, Mr. "I sell Dull Claws for 9250ish", I'm not sure I heard you right.
What kind of capitalist do you take me for?! Throwing away perfectly good profit by undercharging!
I admit it, you got me. My whole "charge for impatience, not for ignorance" ethical code is much harder to understand (and thus less popular) than, "****, ****, ****! All people who have high prices are the same! Death to the bourgeoisie! Give me what I want, at the price I want, when and where I want it!"OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »I might not know where you set your cat-shop up at, but, according to your posts it would cost someone 92k to do the first wave pacer quest if they bought from you, but that's ok since it's their choice to buy from you, right?
But it's not ok for someone to charge 100k for the wave pacer?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
Dude, I'm level 51. LEVEL 51. That tells you right there exactly how much of a "no life" I have.I'm actually shocked you really think you're making money. You do know in game coins have no real value. The way you talk about buying and selling in a virtual enviroment with coins that have no value whatsoever screams "I HAVE NO LIFE"...
Heck, my "no life" skillz are so 1337 that my girlfriend wanted a -*ahem*- different kind of roleplaying last night, and you know what it was? Yup: big bad Barbarian and naughty naughty Venomancer.
So BOOYAH I have no life! (No-life)^2, baby![SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
I have to agree with you here. When I see lower prices, I lower my prices. I'm not trying to drive prices up, just profits.OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »Other than that, wouldn't it be better to let the players who need to craft something have the lower prices instead of you buying them out constantly and having them pay more? Not everything has to be pushed to the highest prices possible.
But here's something odd I've noticed: If a seller lowers his/her prices, all other sellers tend to react very quickly to the price change. However, my actual sales even when I've unknowingly been significantly undercut remained pretty much the same!
So in other words, almost all sellers check prices, but lots of buyers don't.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »Lies! I sold them for 9750, not 9250!
What kind of capitalist do you take me for?! Throwing away perfectly good profit by undercharging!
Oh shoot, I was off by 5...hundred. b:angry
YOU WIN b:sad
Happy now? b:chuckleI admit it, you got me. My whole "charge for impatience, not for ignorance" ethical code is much harder to understand (and thus less popular) than, "****, ****, ****! All people who have high prices are the same! Death to the bourgeoisie! Give me what I want, at the price I want, when and where I want it!"
You fill the impatient "I want it now" niche (it's the only explanation I can think of, too), and that's acceptable since there are people who really just want it now, damn the cost.
I just found it ironic (maybe) that you complained about the price he was selling them for when it would cost nearly as much to buy the quest items from you to complete the quest. Yes, initially you said it wasn't the price, but later you said "it's still too much", and the average price I've seen on Dull Claws is 5k meaning it would run ~50k to complete the quest chain.
The only way, really, to keep people from buying from him, and others that sell them in the manner he does is to inform the newbies that there is a quest to get it with DQ items (Dull Claws) that drop from mobs they are killing. Undercutting him only stops him for a while, and, apparently, makes him stark raving mad, like a bull in a china shop.
IMHO, informing people is really the only way to combat it, but I'd set up a shop next to his to see if he'd go off like that every day until he got banned. b:pleased[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
You're right, actually. The main reason I posted that "Rip-off catshop prices" thread way back was because I didn't really feel comfortable with the exhorbanent prices I was charging. I know that sounds absurd and insincere, but my concern back then was why were the most profitable prices so outrageous? I'd gladly sell for less if it was more, or even roughly equally profitable, but it many cases it simply isn't.OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »I just found it ironic (maybe) that you complained about the price he was selling them for when it would cost nearly as much to buy the quest items from you to complete the quest.
So after much thought I came up with the "charge for impatience, but not for ignorance" rule of thumb. It's probably not the best ethical solution, but it's better than nothing I hope.
My girlfriend has tried to help out all the newbies in Lost City as best she can, but it's unfortunately an even more futile effort. Many people simply do not pay any attention to what the game tells them. They skip reading all the text and when they get stuck they shout out for help.The only way, really, to keep people from buying from him, and others that sell them in the manner he does is to inform the newbies that there is a quest to get it with DQ items (Dull Claws) that drop from mobs they are killing. Undercutting him only stops him for a while, and, apparently, makes him stark raving mad, like a bull in a china shop.
I've seen people who are level 11 buy Wave Pacers and then shout, "How do I fly?" even though the game clearly indicates in bold red the Wave Pacer isn't usable till level 30.
So, do these ADHNewbies deserve to get price gouged? I don't know, but I do know I wouldn't feel right about doing it.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
Hi there.
Sorry if i cause anyone offence here just givin g my opinion.
From what I see what your doing and the other person selling for 100k is perfectly ok.
WHAT IS NOT FINE. Is the abuse getting due to undeucttign him/her and he should stfu and deal with it.
You can say i am an impatient player when it comes to buying DQ's. I buy for 3k each(depending on dq lvl etc) from faction if they have and if anyone is avaiable. Its reasonable, if not i basically scower the streets and go for the best price,
However thats not blck and white,i mind when i went to get element fragments and was searching through HT West Arch. Now anyone knows how busy that place is and how much time you can spend untill you find the item your want to buy specailly when al the shopws say dq(in some sort),
So as soo i found pone i bought at 5k each.
Now if there is a demand and as a seller, people want them from someone. It is upto you how much eash item should go for. No one says people have to spend 3 - 5k each a DQ or 100k a wavepacer.They clcik on the button!
Now i consider myself a N00by(im only 6- 8 weeks old playing PW)
If n00bys are arrogant enough to pay much thats tough. It is the individual responsibility to ask for help if hes not sure. If the quick buy a over priced item, well thats mistake adn i'm afriad thats how they will stop being n00bs. If somone doesnt see and point it out to them.
BTW before people say im a scammer who sales things for higher prices,becuase i am backing up high selling, just like to tell you i dont sell much at unless its in AH. Plus the only thing i sell are Mirage stones at 20 -25k a piece.
I keep mats(because someone always needs something in faction) and i sell DQ to NPC's or in AH(relitivly 1k DQ 21) 2K for the ones valued at 1200-1500. 2.5k for 1.700 and so on. Just to get rid of them quick, and mak e little profit. If i can be bothered going to AH i just sell them to NPC then.0 -
Thanks man. Just what a working class needs on blue Monday. Another entertaining story to pass this day quicker ...of economy venture kind this time.
Keep it up
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OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »Excuse me, Mr. "I sell Dull Claws for 9250ish", I'm not sure I heard you right.
I might not know where you set your cat-shop up at, but, according to your posts it would cost someone 92k to do the first wave pacer quest if they bought from you, but that's ok since it's their choice to buy from you, right?
But it's not ok for someone to charge 100k for the wave pacer?
Even at 35k it's still not ok even though it would run 40k-50k to buy dull claws from most cat shops (4-6k, 5k avg)?
No, it wasn't right for them to leave those messages, but complaining about it when you do the same thing....yeah.
quoted for truth. and PWN'D0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »Dude, I'm level 51. LEVEL 51. That tells you right there exactly how much of a "no life" I have.
Heck, my "no life" skillz are so 1337 that my girlfriend wanted a -*ahem*- different kind of roleplaying last night, and you know what it was? Yup: big bad Barbarian and naughty naughty Venomancer.
So BOOYAH I have no life! (No-life)^2, baby!
Dude firstly thats just gross. Its probably like 2 elephants fighting over a dead rabbit. b:shocked
The fact you spend so much time worrying about a virtual enviroment and the "economy" of said enviroment and the fact you strive to be "wealthy" with "coins" that have no value is actually quite disturbing. But when you probably work at Taco Bell, who can blame you.0 -
Dude firstly thats just gross. Its probably like 2 elephants fighting over a dead rabbit. b:shocked
The fact you spend so much time worrying about a virtual enviroment and the "economy" of said enviroment and the fact you strive to be "wealthy" with "coins" that have no value is actually quite disturbing. But when you probably work at Taco Bell, who can blame you.
who the **** are you to tell people how to play the game, and what they can enjoy and can't enjoy ? Seriously, I could say the same to every people that levels up over 70. "ZOMG, THEY LIKE TO BE HIGH LEVEL IN A GAME.... A GAMMEMEMEMEEEEEEEE !!!! GET A LIFE."
Show your avatar so I can laugh at how you enjoy a GAME. [/sarcasm]
- Amy0 -
I'm actually shocked you really think you're making money. You do know in game coins have no real value. The way you talk about buying and selling in a virtual enviroment with coins that have no value whatsoever screams "I HAVE NO LIFE"...
gah you could look at it from another point of view. if you make in game money and a good amount, you wouldn't be tempted to spend rl money to buy gold and get in game money. so you are actually making money by saving money :P
btw having lots of money makes life easy and less stressful and the game funner. which means you aren't depress and you spend less on drugs that make you happy :P[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
i hope people don't go out and buy drugs to make them happy cause they are a poor in a video game.. haha
more on topic.. oznig .. why do you even play the game.. its virtual.. nothing in the game has real value.. whats the point..
i mean you completely ignore the fact that the game has value as a source of entertainment.. if you see it as so pointless why are you on here0 -
to the OP, I think it's noble of you to try and make things easier for new players, but the fact is that there will always be suckers in the game, and it's really their responsibility to do their homework before spending their coins. One of the great things about this game is the fact that a player who makes an effort to learn while playing has a huge advantage over someone who doesn't research or ask questions. To survive in this game you have to have some wits, and the suckers are gonna have to learn some time. You may have saved them from one pit, but they'll most likely end up falling into the next one anyway.
That jerk shouldn't have left those mean messages tho, hopefully he gets reprimanded for it.0 -
I did not realize there was a wave pacer market.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Yourmom - Lost City wrote: »I did not realize there was a wave pacer market.
I second that XD I see wave pacers for 30+k in Sanctuary but I just laugh to myself and move onto the next shop. I do feel sorry for the little noobies who have to save up for that ****, get to 30 and realize its a quest item.
Before I knew of the quest myself way back when on my barb I got the 10g spotted manta (hey, its faster so I guess that helps? XD) and when I got that manta, I turned around and gave it off to a factionmate for free (only costing them nothing more than a thank you
) And when I had this veno, I didn't get the quest as quickly as I had hoped, so that same factionmate turned around, returned the favor, and gave me their mount they got from their quest ^^ So when I got mine again I gave it off to another lower lvl person ^^
Spreading the kindness of gifts gets to everyone eventually That or its hand me down goods XD [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Ratinax - Sanctuary wrote: »I do feel sorry for the little noobies who have to save up for that ****, get to 30 and realize its a quest item.
So do I... and I despise anyone that tries to take advantage of them in that manner. GMs, I strongly suggest adding an automatic quest popup window when an untamed character hits level 30, reminding him/her of the free wave pacer quest so they won't get ripped off.0 -
Rainbowvidel - Sanctuary wrote: »So do I... and I despise anyone that tries to take advantage of them in that manner. GMs, I strongly suggest adding an automatic quest popup window when an untamed character hits level 30, reminding him/her of the free wave pacer quest so they won't get ripped off.
i thought there was a pop-up window thing at 30.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Why not just make it so it's not tradeable/kitty shop-able? Then the only way to get the basic one is through the quest itself and no more rip-offs."We don't know what we're going to do when we get there, but we're not going to die without good reason."
- Heero Yuy, Gundam Wing
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
~ Mirathyl0 -
There is a pop-up window thing. I distinctly remember seeing it and going 'Hooray!' inside my head and groaning later when I had to scrounge up 10 dull claws from somewhere.
Actually, now that I've just noticed the level requirement for the pacer is 30, I can't think of why anyone would want to be ripped off by buying 100k wave pacers. Even if you buy it early, you still can't use it.0 -
Some of us do plan ahead in this game. I started collecting materials to make my TT60 weapon even though my veno is only 56. Having more time to work on it means I can shop around for the best prices, instead of feeling pressured to buy what's available Right Now because I just hit 60 and want the new weapon ASAP.mentallaxative wrote: »Actually, now that I've just noticed the level requirement for the pacer is 30, I can't think of why anyone would want to be ripped off by buying 100k wave pacers. Even if you buy it early, you still can't use it.
All the other quest rewards already say "Quest Reward" in the description in colored letters. They just need to add it to the wave pacers (and equivalent for the other races).
The scam market I'd like to see collapsed is the crafting materials market. You can buy purified oil, rough fur, concentrated glue, and silk thread from the cash shop for 2500 coin each (assuming 100k to 1g exchange rate). But Archosaur is filled with cat shops selling them for 2800-2900 because people don't realize you can get them from the cash shop.
I tried selling them for 2500, but soon realized that the people running the scam were just buying out my shop (instead of buying from the cash shop) and reselling it for 2800-2900. So like the OP I'm pretty much forced to take one step down the slippery slope and price it at 2600. At least that way others aren't being ripped off as much.0 -
The day you see gold at 100k, PM me !!Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »The scam market I'd like to see collapsed is the crafting materials market. You can buy purified oil, rough fur, concentrated glue, and silk thread from the cash shop for 2500 coin each (assuming 100k to 1g exchange rate). But Archosaur is filled with cat shops selling them for 2800-2900 because people don't realize you can get them from the cash shop.
I tried selling them for 2500, but soon realized that the people running the scam were just buying out my shop (instead of buying from the cash shop) and reselling it for 2800-2900. So like the OP I'm pretty much forced to take one step down the slippery slope and price it at 2600. At least that way others aren't being ripped off as much.
Your argument is invalid since that price isn't right at all. I do check gold trading everyday and I rarely see any below 115k. At 115k / gold, a single mat = 2875 (for the ones 1g = 40 mat). Therefore, you complain about something that is totally right.
If you don't like the price, suck it up because it's not about to change, unless there is a sale on the mats in the Boutique.
- Amy0 -
Well Amy he plays on HT where gold is about 100K a piece. So what he is saying is absolutly correct.
I agree with charging more because it is also a convienence to buy it from a catshop over buying gold then buying from the item mall. It is also a convienence to have to go try and farm it when it drops only sporadicly from the mobs.
Oops hope my comments werent mean and I get in trouble for them.
I enjoy the game immensly, though I dont have sleepless nights, or get worked up over how others play the game. Or get worked up because player A may have more money then me.0 -
No problems, I understand what you mean. Also even at 100k / per, there's the fee of the Gold Trading (don't remember the exact %) that he didn't take into account, plus the convienence you talked about. I agree 100%. It's like going to the mall, and asking vendors to sell you their stuff at cost price. HA HA HA.Well Amy he plays on HT where gold is about 100K a piece. So what he is saying is absolutly correct.
I agree with charging more because it is also a convienence to buy it from a catshop over buying gold then buying from the item mall. It is also a convienence to have to go try and farm it when it drops only sporadicly from the mobs.
Oops hope my comments werent mean and I get in trouble for them.
I enjoy the game immensly, though I dont have sleepless nights, or get worked up over how others play the game. Or get worked up because player A may have more money then me.
- Amy0
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