I need serious help.
Comments
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hey mod why does another player have more posts than you?"When life gives you arrows give them back ", Divine_Demon b:sin0
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IMO light > heavy, since you can just reset all your extra stats from gear into con, adding a lot of hp.
You need to waste like... 120? points over light to use heavy? That's a crapton of hp at 12 per con.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Zoe is so full of it, that he must be Karmelia.0 -
Ren - Lost City wrote: »IMO light > heavy, since you can just reset all your extra stats from gear into con, adding a lot of hp.
You need to waste like... 120? points over light to use heavy? That's a crapton of hp at 12 per con.
I was thinking somethign along the same lines, though the difference is, light venos wont go around trying to maximize +stat gear, and probably settle for channeling/+hp/+runspeed, so technically wont have as much stats to fiddle with, generally, and with upgrades on the heavy armor I think it would compensate enough.
Also personally I'd rather take less damage, then have more hp, think of your hp charm! b:shutup
Sidenote(referring to my post 3 posts above): I've come to the assumption I can probably get a hold of a +10 stat cape, but that will still leave me at best 7 points short. I think the best alternate method would be to use the TT80 heavy wrists(since wrists have the least def, so overall the least impact) and they will add 9 usable points, being fairly effective until I get a level or 2 to compensate and switch to TT90 wrists.0 -
Nevarya - Sanctuary wrote: »This is going to be my first veno and I don't know which is better, light or heavy armor. Please don't say; "It depends on what you're going to do...ect" Because for me, it's going to depend on the armor.
If you're depending on your armor, you will be depending on what acts your character will be acting out. : P
IT REALLY depends on stats, light armor doesn't have too much of an advantage as a Veno, sure you can put what ever points you have left at lvl 60 after raising 180 points in magic, for another stat like Strength, but then how much melee will you be doing? If you're going to use light armor I guess you should put points in Dexterity, Strength, and Magic only, but that leaves you with less Physical Defense. Your HP without any enhancements in gear will only be 1500-1650 at level 60-61 and your Physical defense will be around the same as an Arcane Armor Veno with Pure Mage. The Pure Mage build will have the upper hand still though, this is because Pure Mage uses Vit and Mag with just enough Str to wear the Arcane Armor. With the Vit adding Physical Def, Maximum HP and Str adding little Physical Defense that it does, you will have the plus of around 2.3k HP or more at 60-61 depending on how many points are in Vit. The Dex for a Light Armor build might correct your Physical Attack Accuracy by just a little to enough but it won't be enough to avoid Physical Attacks from PVE and PVP. Pure Mage won't avoid any at all either but it has more potential of survivability. It seems complicated at first but it gets easier. You can find the only answer that you seek for if you answer this question yourself, What do you prefer?0 -
Divine_Demon - Heavens Tear wrote: »hey mod why does another player have more posts than you?
Because they're not here to Spam or use the forums like the users of the game, sure they could but it's not what they're here for. They're here to help inform, guide, and solve problems that people go through and to moderate these forums to it's required standards of its policy. b:pleased They are the enforcers, the replacements with Jet Li skills.0 -
Heavy armor will inevitably be a fox form Veno, i.e. you won't use magic, but the fox form skills. Heavy armor casters don't work.
Light armor can go both ways, though it's not really recommended. Arcane for casters and heavy for foxes, in between makes you weaker really.
Sexy on point post MOD! b:cool0 -
@wikkid86
Stop spamming, add all the quotes to one post next time, and also you're wrong. Read my post at the top of page 4. Level 90 Heavy armor -magic CASTER- build, and posts on the previous page.
Also light armor can go caster too, unlike your first post suggested. Also the OP asked light or heavy.. NOT arcane. Pretty sure Vit doesnt add a lot of pdef either.0 -
Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »@wikkid86
Stop spamming, add all the quotes to one post next time, and also you're wrong. Read my post at the top of page 4. Level 90 Heavy armor -magic CASTER- build, and posts on the previous page.
Also light armor can go caster too, unlike your first post suggested. Also the OP asked light or heavy.. NOT arcane. Pretty sure Vit doesnt add pdef either lmao.
I believe you should research and read more. : ) I never said Light Armor couldn't go caster, if it did though it wouldn't survive as long with having less HP. Vit(A.K.A. Con, adds Maximum HP and Physical Defense) you can find that out by pressing ALT+L in game at the beginners menu when you get back into game. : P
The poster was actually unsure of which armor he was going to be choosing if you read back on his post, so please don't try to flame. I'm simply helping others out and I'm old enough to part my self from such ignorance, but ty for recommending me to merge my posts as one, I might consider it in the future.0 -
I believe you should research and read more. : ) I never said Light Armor couldn't go caster, if it did though it wouldn't survive as long with having less HP. Vit(A.K.A. Con, adds Maximum HP and Physical Defense) you can find that out by pressing ALT+L in game at the beginners menu when you get back into game. : P
The poster was actually unsure of which armor he was going to be choosing if you read back on his post, so please don't try to flame. I'm simply helping others out and I'm old enough to part my self from such ignorance, but ty for recommending me to merge my posts as one, I might consider it in the future.
You suggested it -would- go fox which is VERY untrue. (Infact probably 95+% LA go caster; Light armor caster myself, I survive fine and have about the same if not more HP then my arcane friends, and a LOT more pdef.)
Vit adds -very little- physical defense, not enough to overcompensate Light armor Pdef.(Str adds more pdef, and guess what, light armor gets more str then robe)Nevarya wrote:This is going to be my first veno and I don't know which is better, light or heavy armor. Please don't say; "It depends on what you're going to do...ect" Because for me, it's going to depend on the armor.
Sounded like he wasnt even considering robe.0 -
Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »You suggested it -would- go fox which is VERY untrue. (Light armor caster myself, I survive fine)
Vit adds -very little- physical defense, not enough to overcompensate Light armor Pdef.
If I suggested it would go Foxform as a Light Armor than it would probably be better to, correct? You would get the extra P.Def of Foxform plus the P.Def of the Light armor and that might keep you alive long enough.
Adding Vit into your build is not only about P.Def don't get me wrong, it adds Maximum HP and P.Def increase. Str, also adds P.Def but it's an even smaller amount than Vit.
Any Light or Heavy armored Veno can be a caster if they use a Magical Instrument, and if they did it would most likely be in PVE to heal their pet, but besides that from experience.. Heavy Venos use Melee weapons in PVP, commonly used weapon is an Axe.
What he specificaly said is that what he's going to do is going to depend on his armor.. That can't be decided unless he knows what he prefers..0 -
I made some edits while you were posting I guess, not going to restate them, Adressing HP+pdef.
Also considering pvp builds get -just enough- Mag for the best magic weapon(your talking about vit build arcane for instance) they would all have the same spell damage. Heavy Armor Venos use magic weapons(good ones that is). Using foxform is not better, sure you will -use- foxform more effectively then an arcane, but it wont be any better then caster.
He specifically asked, light or heavy. I dont see how you can deny that.
Cant wait till fuzzles reads this, I'm really not in the mood.0 -
Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »I made some edits while you were posting I guess, not going to restate them, Adressing HP+pdef.
Also considering pvp builds get -just enough- Mag for the best magic weapon(your talking about vit build arcane for instance) they would all have the same spell damage. Heavy Armor Venos use magic weapons(good ones that is). Using foxform is not better, sure you will -use- foxform more effectively then an arcane, but it wont be any better then caster.
He specifically asked, light or heavy. I dont see how you can deny that.
Cant wait till fuzzles reads this, I'm really not in the mood.
I don't care who reads this, just don't try to flame and cause problems on a positive subject when you're not 100% sure what you're talking about. I'm 23 and am too old to be taking part of your childish rants on a forum so please stop abusing before either of us get muted or all this info in opinions becomes removed for other users. Thank you.0 -
I am sure with everything I said, from my own experiences. Take your own advice.
Also nice job, about bringing up age, that should have nothing to do with anything, specially when you go on to squabble childish as if to pretend to act mature. (If you must know I'm 22)
All I did was state some of your post was incorrect, wasnt intentionally meant to flame(to begin with), but you dont take constructive arguments too well.
Going to sleep, dont wait up for a reply, feel free to get you backstab flame in while I cant defend.0 -
Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »Cant wait till fuzzles reads this, I'm really not in the mood.
I've been lurking. b:thanks
Not really sure where wikkid86 is going with this.. but here are a few facts that seem to devalue whatever his argument is.. most of them have been made by Obsessed already:
1. The physical defence added by strength and vit is next to nothing. It is essentially worthless. It's not even worth taking into consideration.
2. It is quite easily possible for a veno to be a caster, regardless of what armour they're wearing.
3. Heavy armour veno most definitely does not mean fox form only.
4. It's possible to be a light armour pure fox form veno.. but there is no reason whatsoever to do so.
5. The heavy armour veno build is also capable of using robes as well as heavy armour to get both a better pdef and mdef than light armour.
6. A light armour veno simply does not have a lot more stat points to spare than a heavy armour veno unless they specifically arrange thei build around specific gear gear. Heavy armour venos are clearly better in most ways. That is their advantage. Their disadvantage is that they are forced to build around a specific gear set.
So no, a light armour veno won't have more damage or HP than a heavy armour veno unless they specifically build with the intention of doing so. (they'll have less HP actually, when you start refining armour).
So the disadvantage of a heavy armour veno is that they don't have room for as much -chan or +crit gear, essentially. That's what it's gonna amount to. The thing is, -chan and +crit gear is so expensive that most people are never gonna amass a good amount of it anyway.
And I really don't know what age has to do with anything. Although I will say that it's really depressing to see people in their early 20s acting as though they're too old to be immature. (Not to be confused with annoying). It's just fueling my eternal fear of aging.Everyone here is ridiculously oversensitive.0 -
I'm going to give this thread a bump because it's been the best debate on arcane/light/heavy veno builds I've seen to date. And seeing some other recent threads, I think they would benefit from reading this. I just wish the thread title was renamed to better show what this thread has evolved into, lol.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You will never do anything in this world without courage.
It is the greatest quality of the mind next to honor.
~Aristotle0 -
Not really sure where wikkid86 is going with this.. but here are a few facts that seem to devalue whatever his argument is.. most of them have been made by Obsessed already:
1. The physical defence added by strength and vit is next to nothing. It is essentially worthless. It's not even worth taking into consideration.
2. It is quite easily possible for a veno to be a caster, regardless of what armour they're wearing.
3. Heavy armour veno most definitely does not mean fox form only.
4. It's possible to be a light armour pure fox form veno.. but there is no reason whatsoever to do so.
5. The heavy armour veno build is also capable of using robes as well as heavy armour to get both a better pdef and mdef than light armour.
6. A light armour veno simply does not have a lot more stat points to spare than a heavy armour veno unless they specifically arrange thei build around specific gear gear. Heavy armour venos are clearly better in most ways. That is their advantage. Their disadvantage is that they are forced to build around a specific gear set.
As we ascertained earlier in this thread:
7. For whatever reason, most people who go with heavy armor seem to use an arcane build to level up, then restat once they're high level. It could be because juggling two sets of armor as you're leveling can be expensive and a headache. Or it's difficult to find decent armor of both types which you'll eventually get rid of in a few levels. Or maybe the build is less effective at PvE so it makes for slower leveling. Or maybe the people who do this are just lazy. Or some combination of the above.
I think input from someone who uses heavy armor as a leveling build might be valuable, rather than just arguments about what build is better at the end-game. The OP stated that s/he hasn't even made the veno yet so the end-game is going to be months if not years away.
A good recommendation does not highlight just the advantages of something. It highlights both the positives and the negatives, so the person reading it knows exactly what they're getting into - good and bad.0 -
I agree with what you say Solandri, but the debate and info that flowed thro this thread I think was most interesting, and made some excellent points.
I myself am in the process now of switching to a Heavy build myself. Not going to wait to hit my endgame. I find myself frequently switching to Foxform for various reasons, and liked the results I got.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You will never do anything in this world without courage.
It is the greatest quality of the mind next to honor.
~Aristotle0 -
hey fuzzies? i have a question
or two
how do heavy builds have more mag def? 0.0
and are there any space point for vit in heavy build?0 -
LhRag - Sanctuary wrote: »hey fuzzies? i have a question or two
how do heavy builds have more mag def? 0.0
and are there any space point for vit in heavy build?
They -can- have more mdef then light armor -if- they mix with robes. Heavy armor build is also able to use the best level robes, so mixing and matching achieves more pdef and mdef than light armor.
Heavy is extremly gear dependant, you need to find High +stat accessories to even make it work. Theres pretty much no left over points, until after you have all your gear on. That said, though there isn't much room(if any) to add to vit thier HP is still really high, most Heavy Armor comes with +vit or +hp, also when you start refining armors, Heavy armor has the highest hp refinement, so generally you will have very high hp with heavy armor.0 -
Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »They -can- have more mdef then light armor -if- they mix with robes. Heavy armor build is also able to use the best level robes, so mixing and matching achieves more pdef and mdef than light armor.
Incorrect. Heavy and light builds can both have the same m.def. A light armor build can mix in arcane armor pieces just as easily. The only build with potentially less m.def is the pure heavy armor build which gimps mag in order to raise str so they can use the best heavy armor for their level.
I ran the numbers for the different armor sets. A heavy/arcane mix which tries to be balanced (i.e. duplicates the m.def and p.def of pure light armor) ends up slightly better or worse than light armor depending on level. The advantage of the heavy/arcane mix is that its range of p.def is greater than that of light (and light/arcane). That is, if you were facing a purely physical boss, a light build could only maximize p.def by swapping out all arcane armor pieces for light. A heavy/arcane build could maximize p.def by swapping out all arcane armor pieces for heavy (some less than best for your level, but still with more p.def than the best light).
The heavy/arcane build is also more likely to have the arcane pieces on hand than the light build. But the h/a also has to spend extra time/money acquiring those extra armor pieces. So I don't consider this to be an advantage. If the light armor build spent the same amount of time/money acquiring arcane armor, the two would be equal in m.def.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »I think input from someone who uses heavy armor as a leveling build might be valuable, rather than just arguments about what build is better at the end-game.
Back on PW-MY I used heavy armour build for lvling. I didn't feel particularly gimped doing so. Still managed to solo the appropriate TTs, and grind the appropriate mobs. Don't really have a whole lot to compare it to though. My current veno here, I'm lvling it as pure int, but it's still rather low level. A bit too early to tell.
But basically, I can say that I really didn't have any problems with lvling it. I wasn't PvPing with it much, so I had a pretty halfassed gear arrangement. I used the best magic weap for the level, and a combination of lower level heavy armour and robes.
I agree that pure int is better at lvling than heavy armour.. but I completely disagree that light armour is better than heavy armour for lvling.
The only thing that matters in terms of lvling a veno is how much magic it has, basically. And since light and heavy have pretty much the same magic.. well... I'd be very amazed if you noticed a difference.
A veno shouldn't really ever get close to dying while grinding away. Just my two cents though.. but in my eyes, a vit build, light build and heavy build are all identical to level.. they all take 3 magic/level.Everyone here is ridiculously oversensitive.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Incorrect. Heavy and light builds can both have the same m.def. A light armor build can mix in arcane armor pieces just as easily. The only build with potentially less m.def is the pure heavy armor build which gimps mag in order to raise str so they can use the best heavy armor for their level.
I ran the numbers for the different armor sets. A heavy/arcane mix which tries to be balanced (i.e. duplicates the m.def and p.def of pure light armor) ends up slightly better or worse than light armor depending on level. The advantage of the heavy/arcane mix is that its range of p.def is greater than that of light (and light/arcane). That is, if you were facing a purely physical boss, a light build could only maximize p.def by swapping out all arcane armor pieces for light. A heavy/arcane build could maximize p.def by swapping out all arcane armor pieces for heavy (some less than best for your level, but still with more p.def than the best light).
The heavy/arcane build is also more likely to have the arcane pieces on hand than the light build. But the h/a also has to spend extra time/money acquiring those extra armor pieces. So I don't consider this to be an advantage. If the light armor build spent the same amount of time/money acquiring arcane armor, the two would be equal in m.def.
I was comparing it to straight Light armor, saying pdef AND mdef, obviously if light switched out light pieces for robes it would have higher mdef, but it would sacrifice pdef. (I think you interperted my original statment as they could switch to pure arcane to have more, which is not what I meant, in that case you'd be correct, obviously they'd be equal if you compared HA robes to LA robes.)
ie) with TT90 gear, 2 pieces robe(pants+wrist), 2 pieces heavy, VS 4 pieces light.
Mix: Pdef 2726, Mdef 3000
Light: Pdef 1877 Mdef 2920
iie) TT90 2pieces robe(Top+boots), 2 piece heavy, VS 4 pieces light
Mix: Pdef 2239 Mdef 3250
Light: Pdef 1877 Mdef2920
That is signifigantly better imo. Regardless of how you mix, you seemingly always land on top, so long as you're smart about it(obviously boot+wrists, would be worse though lol)
This is a common misconception, it IS possible to use the best Heavy armor set, and the best magic weapon, I've already got my TT90gear planned out, and Legendary 89 weapon.(some less than best for your level, but still with more p.def than the best light).0 -
Thing is you're not making an apples-to-apples comparison. You were comparing as if the H/A build is allowed to switch out heavy armor pieces for arcane, but the light build is not. It'd be like comparing a light build with stones to a H/A build without stones.Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »I was comparing it to straight Light armor, saying pdef AND mdef, obviously if light switched out light pieces for robes it would have higher mdef, but it would sacrifice pdef. (I think you interperted my original statment as they could switch to pure arcane to have more, which is not what I meant, in that case you'd be correct, obviously they'd be equal if you compared HA robes to LA robes.)This is a common misconception, it IS possible to use the best Heavy armor set, and the best magic weapon, I've already got my TT90gear planned out, and Legendary 89 weapon.
Not at every level. At least not unless you're extremely fortunate to find large quantities of reduced-requirement armor and weapons. Likewise there are levels where H/A is worse in m.def than light, levels where it is better, depending on which armor pieces are arcane (assuming you want the H/A build to always have better p.def than light). That's why I keep harping on its utility when leveling up vs. at the end game.
And if you're going to include reduced-requirement armor in the comparison to allow the H/A build to wear the best heavy armor, well then with reduced-requirement light armor the light build will always have more points to put into magic than the H/A. Apples to apples.
In a straight comparison, no reduced requirements, assuming you can wield the best magic weapon for your level, looking at levels where new armor pieces become available:
Light can always wear the best light armor for the level.
At level 30, H/A can only wear level 24 heavy armor (-6 levels).
At level 33, H/A can only wear level 26 heavy armor.
At level 34, H/A can only wear level 26 heavy armor.
At level 36, H/A can only wear level 26 heavy armor.
At level 40, H/A can only wear level 30 heavy armor (-10 levels).
At level 43, H/A can only wear level 34 heavy armor.
At level 44, H/A can only wear level 34 heavy armor.
At level 46, H/A can only wear level 34 heavy armor.
At level 50, H/A can only wear level 36 heavy armor (-14 levels).
You notice a trend where the spread between your level and the level of best heavy armor you can wear becomes bigger as you go up in level? In other words, the higher level you are, the harder it becomes to maintain a competitive H/A build without resorting to reduced-requirement armor.
Looking at p.def / m.def at those levels, light in red, H/A using "best" level armor in green (2 best arcane pieces for level, highest level heavy pieces selected to fill other 2 slots), H/A tweaked to more closely resemble light in yellow, assuming you can wield the best magic weapon, no reduced requirements:
Level 30: p.def: 441 479 and m.def: 685 795
Level 33: p.def: 492 434 480 and m.def: 765 950 770
Level 34: p.def: 517 542 and m.def: 805 790
Level 36: p.def: 552 596 and m.def: 860 715
Level 40: p.def: 612 504 689 and m.def: 955 1010 935
Level 43: p.def: 663 463 702 and m.def: 1035 1205 1055
Level 44: p.def: 689 701 and m.def: 1075 1030
Level 46: p.def: 723 505 693 and m.def: 1125 1205 1165
Level 50: p.def: 783 708 778 and m.def: 1215 1305 1235
You'll notice that the H/A has gone from clearly better than light at 30, to marginally better at 40, to about the same at 50. I dropped H/A from consideration as a working build at this point because given the increasing level spread I mentioned above, from 50-70 it would go to clearly worse. Also, mixing and matching armor pieces to get a good mix of p.def and m.def is not a trivial thing. I'd practically have to write an optimization algorithm to do it because there are so many possible combinations (in fact this was the initial reason I set about backing out the formula to translate p.def into % damage reduction - so I could properly assess the trade-off between p.def and m.def in an H/A build).
I don't question H/A's utility as an end-game build. But so far I'm extremely skeptical about it as a working, leveling build. And I think all you end-game H/A fans are doing the community an extreme disservice by raving about it in every thread where a newbie asks for build recommendations. If you don't make clear that you're talking about an end-game build, you're setting the person up a world of hurt and frustration as they try to level an H/A build.0 -
Thing is you're not making an apples-to-apples comparison. You were comparing as if the H/A build is allowed to switch out heavy armor pieces for arcane, but the light build is not. It'd be like comparing a light build with stones to a H/A build without stones.
-if Light switched out for arcane, it would lose substantial amounts of pdef, giving it an overall worse balance of defenses-
My comparison was to straight Light saying Heavy+Arcane(mixed) achieves higher Pdef AND Mdef than Light(pretty much stating there is no reason to go Light, I was NOT talking about maximizing mdef as you seemed to interpert[because obviously they would use the same armors and be the same] but the best balance of defenses ) The point of that comparison was infact "apples to apples" as it was demonstrating the best --balance of pdef+mdef-- that each set could use, and comparing that "best" to the other builds "best". (best v best || apples v apples)
Your comparison is also largly biased as you are comparing to -worse- levels of armor(wheres your apples to apples now?), where a HA would strive to use the best, be it through +stat or -requirements. You argue that if HA gets those armors, then you should compare to a LA who also gets those is in a way moot, since LA WONT go searching for those armors because they dont NEED to, whereas HA does.(Though arguable not in the lower levels, because you really shouldnt be getting hit much with your pet tanking everything, so shouldnt be too worried about your armor)
I wasnt talking about it being good for leveling or anything(clearly refering to endgame, note my TT90 reference), and if you read my earlier posts I didnt suggest to start out as it either.(I recommended leveling arcane and restating at 90)
Also as fuzzles stated in the post prior, Heavy will strive to have the best magic weapon regardless, so it's damage would still be in the same ballpark as light armor, presuming you are a heavy caster and not fox... I can't vouche for fox damage. (Therefor it should level at the same speed as light armor, and save you large amount of coins from restating later)
Yes my claims are biased as well, but they are from experience, being a Light veno myself and seeing the mix armor being better all around. I got to 70 in a little over 3 weeks(albeit hardcore grinding), but regardless nobody should be messing with armors that much nor does armor really matter until the later levels, so comparing lower level armors is kinda blasphemous imo.0 -
We are arguing past each other. I incorrectly attributed your statements to refer across levels and not just at the endgame. You incorrectly think I'm talking about maximizing m.def.Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »My comparison was to straight Light saying Heavy+Arcane(mixed) achieves higher Pdef AND Mdef than Light(pretty much stating there is no reason to go Light, I was NOT talking about maximizing mdef as you seemed to interpert[because obviously they would use the same armors and be the same] but the best balance of defenses ) The point of that comparison was infact "apples to apples" as it was demonstrating the best --balance of pdef+mdef-- that each set could use, and comparing that "best" to the other builds "best". (best v best || apples v apples)
All the numbers I've run say that at mid-to-high levels (the bulk of the time in the game), an H/A mix with similar p.def as light results in about the same or less m.def than light. I completely agree with you at the end game with TT armor and legendary weapons, H/A does better. But I am not talking about maximizing m.def as you seem to think I am. I am talking about an equal baseline comparison of the two builds across multiple levels. By level 50, using base armor, the only way I could get H/A's m.def to be higher than light's was to drop its p.def so it was lower than light's. But if you're going to do that, you might as well sacrifice some of the light build's p.def by swapping in an arcane piece. That's what I was getting at. So it's fallacious to say that H/A's m.def is always better, since the only time that's true (with base armor) is if you drop its p.def lower than light's.
Granted I may not have considered all the possible combinations of H/A armor at 50 since there are so many, but as I mentioned, that's also a problem with the H/A build.
Also, I don't think there's a single "best" balance build. I am only using light as a fixed reference since you can say it in one word and everyone understands what it refers to. In reality, the light build spans everything from full-light to full-arcane, and the H/A build spans everything from full-heavy to full-arcane. The "best" balance for a given situation may fall at full-light, or a mix of light and arcane, or it may even fall at a point with lots of heavy armor and thus unattainable by light.
It is an apples to apples comparison. You can either compare armors without magic bonses/stats, or you can compare armors with them. You cannot compare H/A with bonuses and stats to light without. Like I said, if you want to compare "best" H/A using stats, then you also need to factor in that light with stats would be superior in other areas, such as having higher mag than the H/A due to reduced str/dex requirements. In other words, I'm trying to minimize the degrees of freedom in this comparison by trying to make as take as many extraneous factors (such as magic armor stats) off the table so we can get a baseline comparison.Your comparison is also largly biased as you are comparing to -worse- levels of armor(wheres your apples to apples now?), where a HA would strive to use the best, be it through +stat or -requirements. You argue that if HA gets those armors, then you should compare to a LA who also gets those is in a way moot, since LA WONT go searching for those armors because they dont NEED to, whereas HA does
One you have the baseline, then you can ask, "if we give H/A better armor through reduced-requirement armor, and the light better magic through reduced-requirement armor, then which is better." Heck, if you wanted to, we could compare H/A with reduced-requirement armor to light with +p.def and/or +m.def armor, since they both take up one or two magic slots. There are just so many different possible combinations we could compare that the only comparison that it makes sense to start with is the baseline - nonmagical armor.
And no a light build won't go looking for armor with the same stat bonuses as heavy, but they're still going to look for armor with some type of bonus, whether it be stats, def, or other bonuses. It's preposterous to compare H/A armor with bonuses to light armor without.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »We are arguing past each other. I incorrectly attributed your statements to refer across levels and not just at the endgame. You incorrectly think I'm talking about maximizing m.def.
I know that wasnt your full point but this original statment below made it sound like you thought -I- was attributing switching out pieces to JUST mdef.
"Thing is you're not making an apples-to-apples comparison. You were comparing as if the H/A build is allowed to switch out heavy armor pieces for arcane, but the light build is not. It'd be like comparing a light build with stones to a H/A build without stones."
I didnt mean H/A build can switch out arcane pieces, I meant a Heavy build can switch to H/A build to be comparable to light armor. I suppose it was just a big misinterpertation.All the numbers I've run say that at mid-to-high levels (the bulk of the time in the game), an H/A mix with similar p.def as light results in about the same or less m.def than light. I completely agree with you at the end game with TT armor and legendary weapons, H/A does better. But I am not talking about maximizing m.def as you seem to think I am. I am talking about an equal baseline comparison of the two builds across multiple levels. By level 50, using base armor, the only way I could get H/A's m.def to be higher than light's was to drop its p.def so it was lower than light's. But if you're going to do that, you might as well sacrifice some of the light build's p.def by swapping in an arcane piece. That's what I was getting at. So it's fallacious to say that H/A's m.def is always better, since the only time that's true (with base armor) is if you drop its p.def lower than light's.
Granted I may not have considered all the possible combinations of H/A armor at 50 since there are so many, but as I mentioned, that's also a problem with the H/A build.
The fact is you shouldnt be prelevel 70 long enough to take advantage of H/A build, also comparing one starts might yeild worse results, as the defenses get spread massively with the higher grades, perhaps try with 3star armor, and you might get a more H/A favorable result. I'm really not in the mood to go test it lol. I dont think anyone should even really worry about there armor until endgame though, seeing as your pet will be tanking.Also, I don't think there's a single "best" balance build. I am only using light as a fixed reference since you can say it in one word and everyone understands what it refers to. In reality, the light build spans everything from full-light to full-arcane, and the H/A build spans everything from full-heavy to full-arcane. The "best" balance for a given situation may fall at full-light, or a mix of light and arcane, or it may even fall at a point with lots of heavy armor and thus unattainable by light.
Well the best balanced pdef and mdef light armor can achieve is with straight Light armor. I guess thats more opinion and circumstantially based.It is an apples to apples comparison. You can either compare armors without magic bonses/stats, or you can compare armors with them. You cannot compare H/A with bonuses and stats to light without. Like I said, if you want to compare "best" H/A using stats, then you also need to factor in that light with stats would be superior in other areas, such as having higher mag than the H/A due to reduced str/dex requirements. In other words, I'm trying to minimize the degrees of freedom in this comparison by trying to make as take as many extraneous factors (such as magic armor stats) off the table so we can get a baseline comparison.
One you have the baseline, then you can ask, "if we give H/A better armor through reduced-requirement armor, and the light better magic through reduced-requirement armor, then which is better." Heck, if you wanted to, we could compare H/A with reduced-requirement armor to light with +p.def and/or +m.def armor, since they both take up one or two magic slots. There are just so many different possible combinations we could compare that the only comparison that it makes sense to start with is the baseline - nonmagical armor.
And no a light build won't go looking for armor with the same stat bonuses as heavy, but they're still going to look for armor with some type of bonus, whether it be stats, def, or other bonuses. It's preposterous to compare H/A armor with bonuses to light armor without.
This is where it get iffy imo, The fact is those factors -are- there, and they will generally favor heavy build,(ie. being able to wear the same level armors) and I think that wearing a higher level armor would help more substantially then the bonuses themselves, and comparing to adding the same bonuses onto light armor.
Yes its substantially more to think about, and more expensive, and more gear specific, but it does help it shine. That said, like I've said earlier, I've never recomended it for newcomers, though I dont think it would substantially slow down your leveling(unless your pondering all day what armor to wear, like this discussion lol) as your pet will be taking majority of the damage, and you will still do the same damage with your spells.0 -
if we go to "best light armor" requirement, and fulfill the best Magic wep requirement, what about CON/Vit ? we dont have point to fill that
less HP = be killed fast especially with Magic things
how about we put max requirement of best wep mag, and use lower level Light armor , so we can put Con/vit point per level
let say 3 point Mag and 1 point Con/vit per level.. the rest we can put either str or dex0 -
if we go to "best light armor" requirement, and fulfill the best Magic wep requirement, what about CON/Vit ? we dont have point to fill that
less HP = be killed fast especially with Magic things
how about we put max requirement of best wep mag, and use lower level Light armor , so we can put Con/vit point per level
let say 3 point Mag and 1 point Con/vit per level.. the rest we can put either str or dex
That would be horrible and defy the point of light armor.0 -
hmm,, so we must have no point to Con/vit if we want to use light armor..
i wonder how is survivability of that..pvp n pve0 -
hmm,, so we must have no point to Con/vit if we want to use light armor..
i wonder how is survivability of that..pvp n pve
There shouldnt be any problem with it in either department. Your hp will be fine if you refine your armor. Also you shouldnt be getting hit substantially in pve, and in pvp the pdef will help balance out you -lowish- hp.0
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