Hercules misconceptions

Renara - Heavens Tear
Renara - Heavens Tear Posts: 145 Arc User
edited February 2009 in Venomancer
I'd like to clear up a couple of common misconceptions about the Hercules. Venomancers need to have a solid understanding of his capabilities in order to make an informed decision about obtaining one.

First, a lot of posts about pets in general point out the Ecatomb chart here:

http://www.ecatomb.net/petstat.php

A most informative page, but a bit misleading about the Hercules. His stats as shown are good, but not incredible. Why, the golem's physical defense is almost as high, and the frog's magic defense is actually better!

The secret of the Hercules' strength is in his skills, specifically Strong, Protect, and Reflect. These self-buffs grant increased physical defense, increased magic defense, and melee damage reflection, respectively. (He also comes with Pounce, but folks commonly replace it with a better damage and aggro-holding skill such as Bash.)

But even among those who are aware of these skills, there seems to be another misconception--that Strong and Protect only increase their associated defenses by 50%, for a total of 150% of their base values. Here are examples of pages where this is implied, by Venomancers who are likely more generally knowledgeable than me:

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=132212
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=147631&page=2

Actually, as the in-game descriptions state, Strong and Protect increase their associated defenses by 150%, for a total of 250% of their base values. Here's further confirmation, albeit for the MY-EN version:

http://pw-wiki.onlinewelten.com/(S(fuf23a45fqjlgwveefejah55))/Pet%20Guide%20-%20Pet%20Skills.ashx

(The skills on that version are called Solidshell and Exorcism, near the bottom of the page.)

Thus, the level 90 Hercules described in the Ecatomb chart would have a whopping 22380 physical defense and 17905 magic defense with his buffs in place. Therein lies his true power, and his ability to tank bosses.

My only concern is this: Are there bosses who can remove those buffs? That would reduce a Hercules to little more than a normal pet. Yikes!
"Sorry, we don't need a barbarian. We have a frog."
Post edited by Renara - Heavens Tear on
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Comments

  • fuzzles
    fuzzles Posts: 628 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Renara - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    My only concern is this: Are there bosses who can remove those buffs? That would reduce a Hercules to little more than a normal pet. Yikes!

    I'm not sure if that was rhetorical or not. If I answer it I'll make myself look like a fool if it is..

    But if it isn't rhetorical then I'll miss out on the valuable chance to impart possibly-incorrect and unsubstantiated e-wisdom to some random..

    In order to counteract this, I'll change the subject. I will not start talking about the bosses who debuff pets such as hercs, who definitely exist and are in the game, even though there aren't very many of them:
    They suck. They turn hercs into little more than normal pets.
    Everyone here is ridiculously oversensitive.
  • Renara - Heavens Tear
    Renara - Heavens Tear Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    fuzzles wrote: »
    I'm not sure if that was rhetorical or not. If I answer it I'll make myself look like a fool if it is..

    But if it isn't rhetorical then I'll miss out on the valuable chance to impart possibly-incorrect and unsubstantiated e-wisdom to some random..

    In order to counteract this, I'll change the subject. I will not start talking about the bosses who debuff pets such as hercs, who definitely exist and are in the game, even though there aren't very many of them:
    They suck. They turn hercs into little more than normal pets.

    It isn't rhetorical! I have a herc myself and need to know which bosses to avoid. Any such information would be welcome. Thanks!
    "Sorry, we don't need a barbarian. We have a frog."
  • Krelig - Heavens Tear
    Krelig - Heavens Tear Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Renara - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    It isn't rhetorical! I have a herc myself and need to know which bosses to avoid. Any such information would be welcome. Thanks!

    Even if there were, can't the Herc re-buff itself?
  • Obsessed - Heavens Tear
    Obsessed - Heavens Tear Posts: 670 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Krelig - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Even if there were, can't the Herc re-buff itself?

    Yes, but if your spamming heal, you're prob not paying attention to your pets buffs. Also without the buff, he could end up getting 1-2shot, not giving you time to rebuff it.
  • Devarsi - Sanctuary
    Devarsi - Sanctuary Posts: 542 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    uh off the top of my head i know krimson does some mean defense debuffs .. so i'm assuming your pet would be just as much a victim of that as any barb tanking it
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Eyes of the Krimson Beyond. My herc was tanking just fine for about 10 seconds, until it promptly got 1 shotted.

    Yes what makes a herc the best is the buffs. Though he also has a high hp and good movement speed.

    As for my buff calculations. I took his base stats and multiplied them by 1.5
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • bobbeh
    bobbeh Posts: 52 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Renara - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Thus, the level 90 Hercules described in the Ecatomb chart would have a whopping 22380 physical defense and 17905 magic defense with his buffs in place. Therein lies his true power, and his ability to tank bosses.

    I don't think the 50% part is correct. 150% seems more realistic.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    bobbeh wrote: »
    I don't think the 50% part is correct. 150% seems more realistic.

    I think the confusion comes about because adding 50% would result in a total of 150% the original defense value. People reading 150% probably figured there's no way it could be so good as to add 150%, so they assumed it must've resulted in 150%.
  • demise
    demise Posts: 219 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    The last two fb69 bosses and Phlebo (amplify dmg buff) in fb89 Eden are the few I can recall.
  • Renara - Heavens Tear
    Renara - Heavens Tear Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Eyes of the Krimson Beyond. My herc was tanking just fine for about 10 seconds, until it promptly got 1 shotted.

    Thank you; that's exactly the kind of info for which I was hoping!
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    As for my buff calculations. I took his base stats and multiplied them by 1.5

    Precisely, whereas the correct multiplier is 2.5. My point is that if a pillar of the venomancer community misunderstood the buff's effect, then a lot of other people probably did as well. That's my only reason for citing your post; absolutely, positively no criticism intended.

    b:thanks
    "Sorry, we don't need a barbarian. We have a frog."
  • Vidalaire - Heavens Tear
    Vidalaire - Heavens Tear Posts: 389 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    The last two bosses in FB69 and Kong use nasty curses that will result in a 70+ Barb being killed in 1-2 hits if there's no cleric purifying. Needless to say, pets don't stand a chance.

    Oddly enough, Feng's HP curse doesn't affect pets.
  • Renara - Heavens Tear
    Renara - Heavens Tear Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I think the confusion comes about because adding 50% would result in a total of 150% the original defense value. People reading 150% probably figured there's no way it could be so good as to add 150%, so they assumed it must've resulted in 150%.

    Agreed. Adding 150% is obviously too good to be true...but it is true. I think some of the folks who complained that the Hercules' price is outlandish didn't understand that his buffs are commensurately outlandish.
    "Sorry, we don't need a barbarian. We have a frog."
  • Semyezza - Heavens Tear
    Semyezza - Heavens Tear Posts: 220 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Renara - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Agreed. Adding 150% is obviously too good to be true...but it is true. I think some of the folks who complained that the Hercules' price is outlandish didn't understand that his buffs are commensurately outlandish.

    I love you. No, seriously. I was planning on spending a rib for a Hercules (140 euros! D=) but I wasn't sure, so I wanted to research it a bit. You know, lots of money, need to spend it wisely.

    Your posts pretty much solidified my determination to get one, and it reasoned to me that it's certainly worth working a month for.

    So, THANK YOU for making my life easier. <3
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "I. LIKE. TO. KILL. THINGS."
    - Richard the Warlock, LFG.

    visit my gallery on !! quelfish.deviantart.com !!
  • fuzzles
    fuzzles Posts: 628 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Devarsi - Sanctuary wrote: »
    uh off the top of my head i know krimson does some mean defense debuffs .. so i'm assuming your pet would be just as much a victim of that as any barb tanking it

    Mmmm.. are we thinking of the same debuffs?

    I thought this topic was referring to removing buffs. Not curses.

    As far as I know, pets are immune to most curses. Not all, but most of them. So -pdef curses and whatnot are likely to not affect it. Not 100% sure on that, but it's what I've heard.
    Everyone here is ridiculously oversensitive.
  • Obsessed - Heavens Tear
    Obsessed - Heavens Tear Posts: 670 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Vidalaire - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The last two bosses in FB69 and Kong use nasty curses that will result in a 70+ Barb being killed in 1-2 hits if there's no cleric purifying. Needless to say, pets don't stand a chance.

    Oddly enough, Feng's HP curse doesn't affect pets.

    I have no problem with Kong hes pretty easy, and I can do one of the last bosses of fb69, but the polearm one devours my herc in 1shot.

    General Feng in TT's hp debuff -does- effect pets, but it doesnt hurt it enough to make it impossible.
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Renara - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Precisely, whereas the correct multiplier is 2.5. My point is that if a pillar of the venomancer community misunderstood the buff's effect, then a lot of other people probably did as well. That's my only reason for citing your post; absolutely, positively no criticism intended.

    b:thanks

    Yes I saw the context of the post. Math wasn't ever a strong point for me anyway.b:surrender

    Give me a network however, and I'll have it up and running in no time.b:victory
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • ShadeKitty - Sanctuary
    ShadeKitty - Sanctuary Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Well I knew my herc was awesome, just didn't know it was quite that good. As for bosses that debuff and then constantly kick your butt there is, as mentioned, Krimson and Gargantakong, I will take your word on the last two bosses of fb 70, and the last boss of fb 51 also debuffs as well, making it hard to even spam heal through him until 63 with a good TT weapon (trust me I tried at 53, then again at 60, and couldn't do it til 63). Jewelscalen also does, or so I've heard, but thats a job for the Phoenix anyway.
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    I never had a problem with Gargantakong. Krimson however is impossible to tank, ever. The fb 69 bosses are the same way with their debuffs. Venos have no skill to remove such attacks.

    General Wurlord in TT 2-x just hits too freaking hard. He can 1 shot barbs, he'll have no problem 1 shotting a herc.

    Thats all the bosses I can think of at the moment that are untankable.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • Obsessed - Heavens Tear
    Obsessed - Heavens Tear Posts: 670 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I never had a problem with Gargantakong. Krimson however is impossible to tank, ever. The fb 69 bosses are the same way with their debuffs. Venos have no skill to remove such attacks.

    General Wurlord in TT 2-x just hits too freaking hard. He can 1 shot barbs, he'll have no problem 1 shotting a herc.

    Thats all the bosses I can think of at the moment that are untankable.

    Quoted for truth. Kong isnt too bad. Basically the only things Herc -cant- tank are things that 1shot it.

    Wurlord made me cry b:cry
  • Vinat - Sanctuary
    Vinat - Sanctuary Posts: 1,200 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    actually zoe, basic math.. 150% increase does mean base X 1.5.

    for the stats listed on ecatomb, the base 8,952 X 1.5 = 13,428. the only question is if the 8,952 is added yet again (2.5), which would bring it up to the 22,380 that op claims, but... in real life and general math there's a common misconception about what "percent increase" means. the phrasing of the equation makes a big difference, 150% of 8k is different than 150% more than 8k.

    150% of 8,952 is 13,428. 150% more than 8,952 would be 22,380.

    the way the skill description is phrased is ambiguous, so we dont really know what it means. but it is one of those two, either 1.5 or 2.5. im going to play around with my own herc and really pay attention to whether or not the damage reduction is more than half.. bcuz as it is now.. it doesnt seem to be, which leads me to believe its actually a 1.5 increase, and not a 2.5.


    EDIT: and i just tested with my herc.. un-buffed he took 62 hp phys damage from a lower lvl mob. then i buffed him, took 27 hp damage. thats a 56 percent decrease. which would make the herc buff actually be the X1.5 = at lvl 90, buffed would be 13k pdef, not 22k.

    i think.... lol. now im just totally confused b:cry
  • Renara - Heavens Tear
    Renara - Heavens Tear Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Vinat - Sanctuary wrote: »
    actually zoe, basic math.. 150% increase does mean base X 1.5.

    No, base X 1.5 is a 50% increase. Look again at the page I linked with the table showing the skill effects:

    http://pw-wiki.onlinewelten.com/(S(fuf23a45fqjlgwveefejah55))/Pet%20Guide%20-%20Pet%20Skills.ashx

    If your interpretation were correct, then levels 1, 2, and 3 of Solidshell (the MY-EN version of Strong) would decrease the pet's physical defense. That seems unlikely.
    Vinat - Sanctuary wrote: »
    EDIT: and i just tested with my herc.. un-buffed he took 62 hp phys damage from a lower lvl mob. then i buffed him, took 27 hp damage. thats a 56 percent decrease. which would make the herc buff actually be the X1.5 = at lvl 90, buffed would be 13k pdef, not 22k.

    i think.... lol. now im just totally confused b:cry

    Your test actually supports my statements. With the buff in place, the hercules took less than half the damage that he took without it, implying that his physical defense is more than doubled by the buff. Or think of it this way: 62 divided by 27 is 2.3, which is pretty close to 2.5.
    "Sorry, we don't need a barbarian. We have a frog."
  • Vinat - Sanctuary
    Vinat - Sanctuary Posts: 1,200 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    how does "less than half" turn into "more than double"

    i'm really just totally confused. its not just.. numbers we're dealing with but also the relationship between numbers (the def's relationship to the enemy's attack, and then the percentage increase itself).

    my brain is on overload. i'll think more about this tomorrow or something lol.
  • Maiya - Lost City
    Maiya - Lost City Posts: 2,686 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    A list of the ones so far...

    World Map: Eyes of the Krimson Beyond
    World Map: Gargantuan Kong
    Twilight Temple: General Wurlord
    fb69: Cenequus Polearm
    fb69: Damned Gaurnob
    fb89: Phlebo

    I think maybe Lord of Percussion on certain difficulties as well?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Blancheneige - Heavens Tear
    Blancheneige - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,494 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Maiya - Lost City wrote: »
    Twilight Temple: General Wurlord

    Quite easy on solo mode TT.
    fb69: Damned Gaurnob

    Quite easy past a certain level.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Thanks Brit for the sig b:laugh
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Vinat - Sanctuary wrote: »
    EDIT: and i just tested with my herc.. un-buffed he took 62 hp phys damage from a lower lvl mob. then i buffed him, took 27 hp damage. thats a 56 percent decrease. which would make the herc buff actually be the X1.5 = at lvl 90, buffed would be 13k pdef, not 22k.

    The relationship between damage reduction and p.def is nonlinear. The formula I backed out for it was:

    % damage reduction = 100*p.def / (p.def + 40*level)

    You can try plugging in numbers from your character (hit 'c') to verify. If you hover the mouse over your character's p.def score, it'll tell you the % damage reduction against equal level enemies. So far the formula has checked out for all except very low-level characters.

    What level is your herc? What's its unbuffed p.def? And can you tell us the unbuffed and buffed damage it takes from a same-level mob?
  • Vinat - Sanctuary
    Vinat - Sanctuary Posts: 1,200 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    im about to go to bed. ill post the info sometime tomorrow after i find something lvl 69 to test with.


    EDIT
    ugh it's gonna have to wait 30 percent.. all i can find are 68's and 70's. so i'll test with a 70 soon as i level up.

    and the % reduction for my character is 29%. does that apply to the herc as well?
  • Renara - Heavens Tear
    Renara - Heavens Tear Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Vinat - Sanctuary wrote: »
    the % reduction for my character is 29%. does that apply to the herc as well?

    No, your herc's % reduction will be calculated according to his physical defense...which is a lot higher.

    Solandri, for my character, the difference between your formula's prediction and the game's displayed numbers for physical and magical damage reductions is less than one percent. Well done!!!
    "Sorry, we don't need a barbarian. We have a frog."
  • KirathCra - Heavens Tear
    KirathCra - Heavens Tear Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Relatively new to the game, but from what I understood there's little benefit from stacking on defense at some point; like my Barb sees only a mere 6% or so difference when adding 300 points of def to his 1.2k with basic armor on. I'm doing this from memory as he's retired, but it didn't strike me as something to worry to *much* about.

    My thought here is, after like a 60% reduction rate would it take an astounding amount of def to get to 65%? Judging from what I remember on my barb it would take ~25% of your defense at 60%, then something like ~30% to get it to 70% etc. Wouldn't Herc hit a point where, even though it may be getting 12k more def, it's only getting another 20% reduction out of it? So even though it's numbers are so much greater than, say a magmite, it's really not that much greater in the actual % damage reduction?
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    KirathCra - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Relatively new to the game, but from what I understood there's little benefit from stacking on defense at some point; like my Barb sees only a mere 6% or so difference when adding 300 points of def to his 1.2k with basic armor on. I'm doing this from memory as he's retired, but it didn't strike me as something to worry to *much* about.

    My thought here is, after like a 60% reduction rate would it take an astounding amount of def to get to 65%?

    Well, yes and no.

    In terms of damage reduction, there's diminishing returns for stacking on defense. At level 50, the DR for a given p.def is:

    p.def - DR% - % increase from previous
    1000 - 33.3% - x
    2000 - 50.0% - 16.7%
    3000 - 60.0% - 10.0%
    4000 - 66.7% - 6.7%
    5000 - 71.4% - 4.7%
    6000 - 75.0% - 3.6%
    7000 - 77.8% - 2.8%
    8000 - 80.0% - 2.2%

    However, the damage taken is inverted. If you have 2000 hp and the mob is doing 1000 damage a hit, the number of hits you can take until dead goes as:

    p.def - damage/hit - survival time - % increase from previous
    0 - 1000 - 2 hits - x
    1000 - 667 - 3 hits - 50%
    2000 - 500 - 4 hits - 33%
    3000 - 400 - 5 hits - 25%
    4000 - 333 - 6 hits - 20%
    5000 - 286 - 7 hits - 16.7%
    6000 - 250 - 8 hits - 14.3%
    7000 - 222 - 9 hits - 12.5%
    8000 - 200 - 10 hits - 11.1%

    Tada - the effects cancel out and it's linear. Every 1000 extra p.def lets you survive for 1 more hit. So in terms of damage reduction there's diminishing returns. But in terms of how long it'll help you survive a fight, there is no diminishing returns. Adding a 25 p.def shard to a 7000 p.def build increases your survival time just as much as adding it to a 1000 p.def build.

    Of course the proportional effect is smaller the higher you go (increasing survival time from 2 hits to 3 hits is a 50% increase, increasing survival time from 9 to 10 hits is only an 11% increase). But the same thing applies to everything that's linear, like levels. Going from level 1 to 2 is a much bigger difference than going from 51 to 52; but the incremental change is the same.

    So it all really depends on how you want to think about it.
  • Maiya - Lost City
    Maiya - Lost City Posts: 2,686 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    ... Math. It hurts my brain.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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