Holy/Hell discussion.

Torinchibi - Lost City
Torinchibi - Lost City Posts: 499 Arc User
edited April 2009 in Archer
Yes, I am bored, so let's argue about stuff.

So, let's discuss the pro/con of both sides of Holy/Hell. Before we begin, here are some facts:
You can only get 3 of the 89 skills from FB 89, and will most likely wait a while before getting the rest.
The three skills are:
Frost arrow -> Holy makes it water dmg, Hell gives you 33% chance to cast without chi, while gaining 35 chi instead.
Take aim -> Holy increases dmg to 500% (instead of the default 400% at lvl 11), Hell makes it finish casting 0.5 faster (2.5 sec instead of 3.0 sec at lvl 11)
Blazing arrow -> Holy gives you 15% extra fire damage for the duration of the buff, Hell gives you 70% extra fire dmg for 20 seconds after buffing (normal atk only for both).

The spark benefits are:
Holy -> 700% extra weapon dmg, 25% more defense, 20% MP heal, 3 second invulnerability while casting.
Hell -> 500% extra weapon dmg, 25% more atk rate (normal atk speed), 20% HP heal, 3 second invulnerability while casting.

The extra skills are:

Holy -> regain 50 chi, cooldown is 60 seconds, cast time is 1 second.
Hell -> make opponent lose 50 chi, cooldown is 30 seconds, cast time is 1 second.

Now that that's out of the way, I would like to say that at 99+ I think the two sides are pretty well balanced and going one or the other is really personal choice.

Now discuss which side is better for Twilight Temple, Territory War, World PvP, 1v1, Duels, Cube, PvE, Zhen, before farming the other 89 skills, after farming 92 skills, after lvl 99, etc.
Post edited by Torinchibi - Lost City on
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Comments

  • Annor - Heavens Tear
    Annor - Heavens Tear Posts: 330 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    To me: The Demon spark eruption seems godly, and maybe worthy enough to choose demon by its merits alone, the other abilities seem more contested, where for sage you get the higher damage passives, and for demon the temporal "THINGS MUST DIE" buffs.
    Meek with words, abrupt with arrows.
  • Torinchibi - Lost City
    Torinchibi - Lost City Posts: 499 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    See, I like the heaven spark way better. You can 2 shot ppl if you do more dmg, but with hell spark you would have to normal atk to make use of its benefit....althought I did 1 shot some1 with normal atk the other day...after they already got 1 shot for stun. Yes, weird.
    Back to the spark discussion, while you do get faster atk rate, hell doesn't help against heavy armor since you have to use lightning for real dmg. On the other hand, heaven spark heals 20% hp on use, and increases defense by 25%, while still doing 200% more weapon dmg.
    The way I see it, the 200% weapon dmg would equal out to 10-15% atk rate in terms of dps, so it's like trading 20% hp heal and 25% defense for 10-15% slower atk rate with normal atks.

    Even then, hell spark atk speed could kill your enemy before you die in heaven vs hell archer battle, but at the same time, with heavy venos, plume shelled clerics and hell light/heavy wizards, spark won't necessarily help you enough to kill the opponent in 15 seconds... or before they kill you.

    My opinion, hell spark is better for killing mobs that get 2-3 shot, but not as good in pvp...even when people use the crappy **** gold slingshot.
  • sillyfoo
    sillyfoo Posts: 286 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    o.o tell Shinzoko and CrazyPolter to fight eachother in pk fight. See who wins most outta ten fights with npc gear of course since im pretty sure Shinzoko got better gear atm. I still think at later lvls 100+ demon will surpase sage on accuracy and dodge since crit and dodge are a archers life blood. Sage archer vs demon archer i mean. Sage i believe works better for tw though since its 20% reduce hp will help more on barbs but what do i know im not even near 90 O_O. PVE also sage i believe is better since it has a supposed 30% increase making it 90% passive attack damage. Jones blessing basically. I would prefer demon though still just my idea but ima guy i just dont like the idea of a lil fairy flying around me i'd rather have a red hamburger. ^^
  • Envy - Lost City
    Envy - Lost City Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Torinchibi - Lost City wrote: »
    See, I like the heaven spark way better. You can 2 shot ppl if you do more dmg, but with hell spark you would have to normal atk to make use of its benefit....althought I did 1 shot some1 with normal atk the other day...after they already got 1 shot for stun. Yes, weird.
    Back to the spark discussion, while you do get faster atk rate, hell doesn't help against heavy armor since you have to use lightning for real dmg. On the other hand, heaven spark heals 20% hp on use, and increases defense by 25%, while still doing 200% more weapon dmg.
    The way I see it, the 200% weapon dmg would equal out to 10-15% atk rate in terms of dps, so it's like trading 20% hp heal and 25% defense for 10-15% slower atk rate with normal atks.

    Even then, hell spark atk speed could kill your enemy before you die in heaven vs hell archer battle, but at the same time, with heavy venos, plume shelled clerics and hell light/heavy wizards, spark won't necessarily help you enough to kill the opponent in 15 seconds... or before they kill you.

    My opinion, hell spark is better for killing mobs that get 2-3 shot, but not as good in pvp...even when people use the crappy **** gold slingshot.

    Heavens eruption does no extra damage.

    Its a typo on ectacomb.

    With hell fury Ive taken on people 4 v 1, turn, shoot, dead, turn, shoot, dead, turn, shoot, dead ect ect
  • Link - Lost City
    Link - Lost City Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    I've chosen Heaven and im quite satisfied with Heaven in terms of the 3 89 skills and the burst. Hell burst might be good for killing multiple squishies with fast atk speed, but not very good for fighting heavy classes since you use metal skills(or if heaven the nice heaven frost arrow to kiteb:chuckle, although hell frost is a pretty fast physical damage skill with a lot add dmg and low cooldown but i prefer the water damage transmute, since archer only has 2 quite fast magic attacks.

    Also i like to Heaven burst+anti stun pot when wf with phoenix is coming close to me. pretty nice way to 1-2shot the wf just with stun then aim low and normals. phoenix never killed me doing that yet, but if wf is using 50% dmg reduce pot in time your kinda screwed without crits b:surrender.

    For me, Heaven definately>Hell in 89skills and burst, not sure about 92,99 skills some of hell seem to be pretty nasty, like 10% more crit rate after stun. with my bad luck in pk i sure wouldn't crit then with like 37% rate b:laugh so 4secs heaven stun to completely cast heaven take aim seems to be nice too.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Serjah - Heavens Tear
    Serjah - Heavens Tear Posts: 265 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    main reason i chose demon is the spark
    u cant replace anything with the godly speed that it gives u
    i drop a 90+ cleric with plume shield on v fast, not to mention the rest arcane/LA classes

    another thing is the quickshot / dodge buff / lightning skill, which suck for sage

    im only sad i missed the frost arrow skill, but having a NEVER MISSING lightning rox
    A patch full of glitch,
    Makes my eyes twitch.
    Should i continue playing this game or switch,
    because this is a serious problem and not a simple itch.
    Some bug abusing noob gets rich,
    While a honest players get the ditch.
    Please rollback if you wanna enrich,
    or this game would just be a ****

    by xtrm9
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    only thing i liked about heaven was the frost arrow, but at 25 vigor each id rather have attack speed, take aim is very fast at only 100% less damage, more crit, more evasion and accuracy
  • BloodCountes - Heavens Tear
    BloodCountes - Heavens Tear Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    What about the range bonus? Sage archer is definetly better pker. b:laugh
    My people, some of them have run away to the hills
    and have no shelter. No food, no one knows where they are,
    hear me my chiefs, I am tired. My heart is sick and sad,
    I will fight no more....
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    2 meters is nothing compared to 1% crit and 10% acc
  • BloodCountes - Heavens Tear
    BloodCountes - Heavens Tear Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »
    2 meters is nothing compared to 1% crit and 10% acc

    Yes but higher dmg means more painful crits. b:victory
    My people, some of them have run away to the hills
    and have no shelter. No food, no one knows where they are,
    hear me my chiefs, I am tired. My heart is sick and sad,
    I will fight no more....
  • aphetoros
    aphetoros Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    How much accuracy does it take to make another crit %? People are also forgetting the demon quickshot (increased attack rate anyone?).
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    BloodCountes - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Yes but higher dmg means more painful crits. b:victory

    15% more damage isn't much.
  • Chaotiic - Lost City
    Chaotiic - Lost City Posts: 498 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Heaven fury has a typo as its the same damage as hell both are 500% and i believe it also recovers hp so the only difference between the 2 is 25% attack speed or 25% defense. Personally i like to kill stuff, thats why i rolled an archer more attack speed pl0x. And dont be disappointed iv hit barbs 9k+ with crits after hell fury and normal shot as much on LA/robes hell fury is always GG. In fact if u hell fury and u DONT kill something you're BAD (unless u die straight away or a barb runs like mad)

    The later skills be they at lv 89, 92 or 99 are all extremely hard to get but if we consider them hell for me improves on our main attributes dodge, accuracy and most importantly CRIT. An archer is virtually nothing without crit yes that 15% extra attack will make ur crits harder but 15% weapon attack doesnt translate to much damage. IT IS NOT JONES BLESSING it is not 15% damage it is 15% extra weapon damage which is only a portion of our damage formula.

    Take aim heaven has some nice damage but **** is sooo quick i can mostly stun>>>take aim it hits jus as stun wears off and GG to most robe/LA opponents if i take slightly longer for example opponent is just out of range as stun hits and i have to fly forward a bit b4 take aim a cleric/archer can put up shield mages drop etc.

    And lol @ 2 meters i didnt even notice it when i had the 88gold bow
    Official Guild History

    Conqueror->kamisama
  • BloodCountes - Heavens Tear
    BloodCountes - Heavens Tear Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    I prefer longer range, more dmg (normal and the blazing arrow buff) than 2 % more crit. rate. And of corse - the bane arrow gets useful in 'sage mode". b:laugh
    And u get 20 %decrease max hp - everyone will want u in squads.
    And what about the stormrage skill when u r sage?
    My people, some of them have run away to the hills
    and have no shelter. No food, no one knows where they are,
    hear me my chiefs, I am tired. My heart is sick and sad,
    I will fight no more....
  • Chaotiic - Lost City
    Chaotiic - Lost City Posts: 498 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Lol bane arrow in sage is jus summin to play with and laugh. To be honest those damage and blazing arrow buffs are only really useful in PVE and no mattter what server ur on after 90 u kill mobs soo fast PVE is not a problem and generally u gear urself towards PVP in which case those buffs make 0 difference. Also at 99+ when u get the 20% sharptooth i dont think u will worry about getting in pts.
    Stormrage is decent but its not something u base hell/heaven on i mean....its Stormrage when do u ever use it? b:chuckle Except maybe for lolz cos it looks cool. In TW give me a shaprtooth that gives me 10% extra crit so i can open zhen and 1 shot everyone pl0xb:victory and lol lik ei would ever use stormrage or vicious arrow whether heaven or hellb:chuckle

    Edit: when u get to lv 88 get the gold xbow and see if u notice the 2m extra range

    Edit Edit: then again ur on pve server u might fall in love with it...
    Official Guild History

    Conqueror->kamisama
  • BloodCountes - Heavens Tear
    BloodCountes - Heavens Tear Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Maybe u r right, my lvl is still too low... But nevertheless I will go sage. b:laugh
    Sage or demon archer lvl up faster?

    However, don't u think that bane arrow and all water dmg frost arrow is useful against barbs and bms.

    At my lvl 15 % more dmg means about 300 - 600 dmg above. At lvl 90 maybe it is 2k - 3k dmg above. I think that's really cool. :)
    My people, some of them have run away to the hills
    and have no shelter. No food, no one knows where they are,
    hear me my chiefs, I am tired. My heart is sick and sad,
    I will fight no more....
  • Chaotiic - Lost City
    Chaotiic - Lost City Posts: 498 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Lol heaven and hell are both good and you are right frost arrow is an excellent heaven skill and bane even has its uses.

    Normal shot damage at 90+ ranges from 4k-6k on mobs ur level.

    And both heaven and hell level about the same pace after 90 i mean it cant get much harder llol b:sad
    Official Guild History

    Conqueror->kamisama
  • Torinchibi - Lost City
    Torinchibi - Lost City Posts: 499 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Holy ****, I ddin't even notice it was really a typo. Hell spark definitely takes the cake in faster killing now, I do like the defense on heaven spark though since it works against barbs and warriors.....Tsk tsk, that 200% dmg was making my argument way better. Nevertheless, I do like the skills for heaven better. The 2m range vs 1% crit and 10% accuracy goes to hell though. Definitely. Hell quickshot is pretty good, but so is heaven, although hell quick shot will probably help way more in pvp.

    Later on, seal for 5 seconds on a skill that immobilizes for 8 seconds is better than stun for 3 seconds. Deadly shot is better for hell though, heaven just makes you able to deadly on nearby targets...which means nothing.

    I will have to revise my opinion of hell spark...hell spark > heaven spark when it comes to killing anything that's not in heavy....and even then, I saw my freind tick a barb's heiro and do 50% dmg before his spark ran out from just normal atks.
  • Envy - Lost City
    Envy - Lost City Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    level 11 take aim > level 11 deadlyshot
  • Chaotiic - Lost City
    Chaotiic - Lost City Posts: 498 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Envy - Lost City wrote: »
    level 11 take aim > level 11 deadlyshot

    SOOOOO TRUE deadlyshot=long and less damage give me take aim pl0x

    Oh wait i have it 89 skills FTW b:victory
    Official Guild History

    Conqueror->kamisama
  • Torinchibi - Lost City
    Torinchibi - Lost City Posts: 499 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    I would like to see you do as much dmg with sparked take aim as you do with deadly shot though.
  • Envy - Lost City
    Envy - Lost City Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Torinchibi - Lost City wrote: »
    I would like to see you do as much dmg with sparked take aim as you do with deadly shot though.

    And I would like to see you ever pull that off in PvP.

    Nobody will ever let you hit them after you pop fury, especially not use a charge up skill after doing it.
  • Chaotiic - Lost City
    Chaotiic - Lost City Posts: 498 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Spark take aim would do more damage anyway as it gains more from an increase in weapon damage i.e. more of its damage comes from weapon % (400/500) where as deadly gains less from an increase in weapon damage as weapon % contributing to the damage of the attack is lower (100).

    Also Envy u can perform a charge skill after spark if ur opponent stun is on cooldown or u resist their stun with ur spark (did it to MeLoveYou b4 b:chuckle)
    Official Guild History

    Conqueror->kamisama
  • Torinchibi - Lost City
    Torinchibi - Lost City Posts: 499 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    You can always have a friendly cleric sleep some1 so you can spark deadly them. In TW, you can do a spark deadly on people not paying attention or people rushing through the gate. There are always ways to pull off stuff like that.
  • Deumos - Lost City
    Deumos - Lost City Posts: 161 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Chaotiic - Lost City wrote: »

    Also Envy u can perform a charge skill after spark if ur opponent stun is on cooldown or u resist their stun with ur spark (did it to MeLoveYou b4 b:chuckle)

    Only a moron would stand still, and not run away when he sees you do that.
  • Chaotiic - Lost City
    Chaotiic - Lost City Posts: 498 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Deumos - Lost City wrote: »
    Only a moron would stand still, and not run away when he sees you do that.

    You have 3 seconds during my spark and 2.5 secs during my take aim to run thats 5.5 secs which is a long time to get out of range i know but for a wf/ep/mage they have to cancel wateva skills they are performing then run and with the delay people usually fire off another skill b4 they move (im sure uv noticed when shooting a boss etc u fire an extra 1-2 shots b4 u can perform a skill or run). This means they can almost get away but will most likely be hit by my take aim which is all u need to kill any non heavy.
    I rarely use a charge skill after hell fury on non-heavy users however as u can jus use normal shots to **** mostly and so u know my normal attack speed with hell fury last time i checked is 0.91. Try running from that.

    If u are talking about air fights u shouldnt spark here anyway its a waste as people just drop unless its many vs u in which case they generally stick around.....and dieb:chuckle. Mass pvp u generallly jus wont have the chi.
    Official Guild History

    Conqueror->kamisama
  • Torinchibi - Lost City
    Torinchibi - Lost City Posts: 499 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Chaotiic - Lost City wrote: »
    Spark take aim would do more damage anyway as it gains more from an increase in weapon damage i.e. more of its damage comes from weapon % (400/500) where as deadly gains less from an increase in weapon damage as weapon % contributing to the damage of the attack is lower (100).

    Also Envy u can perform a charge skill after spark if ur opponent stun is on cooldown or u resist their stun with ur spark (did it to MeLoveYou b4 b:chuckle)

    When i tried spark take aim last 15 times I did as much damage as non-spark. In fact, my highest crit with that was out of spark, and I did the same damage with normal atk. That made me believe that the % bonus on skills doesn't stack with spark, aka you do just base dmg during spark take aim, and you do base dmg + 5k during spark deadly. Logically, it doesn't make sense to me either, but that's what I saw happen. I normal crit for as much Take aim crit during spark (both high end dmg crits).
  • Chaotiic - Lost City
    Chaotiic - Lost City Posts: 498 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Torinchibi - Lost City wrote: »
    When i tried spark take aim last 15 times I did as much damage as non-spark. In fact, my highest crit with that was out of spark, and I did the same damage with normal atk. That made me believe that the % bonus on skills doesn't stack with spark, aka you do just base dmg during spark take aim, and you do base dmg + 5k during spark deadly. Logically, it doesn't make sense to me either, but that's what I saw happen. I normal crit for as much Take aim crit during spark (both high end dmg crits).

    It does stack. Iv hit 9x 8k+ crits with take aim after hell fury thats light and robe users. I cant hit close to that amount of damage with take aim (on 9x anyway) without hell fury. And if i can iv been getting seriously unlucky/lucky to do it only after hell fury.
    Official Guild History

    Conqueror->kamisama
  • Envy - Lost City
    Envy - Lost City Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Torinchibi - Lost City wrote: »
    You can always have a friendly cleric sleep some1 so you can spark deadly them. In TW, you can do a spark deadly on people not paying attention or people rushing through the gate. There are always ways to pull off stuff like that.

    If you ever get heaven take aim and a decently +d weapon you'll relize that is a waste of time

    crits with lvl 11 take aim is over kill enough.
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    I think I understand spark now: In PvE, my spark seems to stack its percent of my base weapon damage onto my attack.

    If my base damage were 1000-1001 and my physical attack were 5000-5005, with +500% I would be doing 10000-10010, and if I were using a skill that added 4321 damage I would be doing 9321-9331 without spark and 14321-14331 with spark.

    But I used to think spark worked differently.

    And maybe spark works differently in PvP?

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