Official Complaint From Ascension Guild RE: TW Bid Abuse
Halcyon - Lost City
Posts: 18 Arc User
As the leader of Ascension on Lost City, I would like to express our disappointment at the way the dWarfS fake bid situation was resolved. Having been outbid at 21.59 by the fake guild, we immediately sought for a GM (Ironman) who told us he would investigate if we submitted a ticket. We requested that he stick around until bids were finalized, and then placed another bid to extend closing time to 22.40. At 22.39 the fake guild continuously outbid us and unfortunately was able to squeeze in an outbid right at the death. At this time, I was told that GM Ironman had left his shift and went home already and the new GM BearClaw was unable to handle the case as it was Ironman's. This entire situation could have been avoided if there was a GM available during the close of bidding. A swift investigation to check IPs could have been carried out, followed by a ban on the fake guild's GM to prevent further bidding. Instead, I was told to submit a ticket and wait until GM Ironman was back to read it.
The losses to our guild includes missing out on a strategic land (Tradewind) which would have given us access to central and top right lands, as well as a cumulative 10M per week loss in income. It also denies newer members a chance to experience the TW battlefield before PvP TWs begin. However this is nothing compared with future losses incurred. We now have no realistic chance of bidding Tradewind again as the weaker guilds around us now have 3 lands and are able to easily outbid us with their increased income.
GMs have already said that there is nothing that could be done to repair the damage done to our guild. They have also refused to offer any sort of compensation, let alone offer us a reply or explanation regarding the matter. Apparently it is not possible to delete fake bids or assign land to our guild, so there is only one possible option.
Takeover the leader's account of the major guild behind the fake bid and kick everyone from that guild before this weekend's TW to prevent them from getting another land. Then enforce a lockdown on one of their lands which will be used to provide us with 10M salary a week.
TW MAP: http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=twmapcx2.jpg
For example, if HolyHell (orange lands) is behind the fake bids, we will take windswept grasslands, then leave silk ridge for farming income. (Interestingly enough, the HolyHell leader Saska has been absent since the ban announcement and was not present for their TW either)
This would appear to be the simplest solution and the best compromise for all interests. I expect GMs to consider this option and take the further action necessary. We brought this matter to the GM's attention well in advance, and should not have to suffer the penalty for their inaction.
Regards,
Halcyon
The losses to our guild includes missing out on a strategic land (Tradewind) which would have given us access to central and top right lands, as well as a cumulative 10M per week loss in income. It also denies newer members a chance to experience the TW battlefield before PvP TWs begin. However this is nothing compared with future losses incurred. We now have no realistic chance of bidding Tradewind again as the weaker guilds around us now have 3 lands and are able to easily outbid us with their increased income.
GMs have already said that there is nothing that could be done to repair the damage done to our guild. They have also refused to offer any sort of compensation, let alone offer us a reply or explanation regarding the matter. Apparently it is not possible to delete fake bids or assign land to our guild, so there is only one possible option.
Takeover the leader's account of the major guild behind the fake bid and kick everyone from that guild before this weekend's TW to prevent them from getting another land. Then enforce a lockdown on one of their lands which will be used to provide us with 10M salary a week.
TW MAP: http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=twmapcx2.jpg
For example, if HolyHell (orange lands) is behind the fake bids, we will take windswept grasslands, then leave silk ridge for farming income. (Interestingly enough, the HolyHell leader Saska has been absent since the ban announcement and was not present for their TW either)
This would appear to be the simplest solution and the best compromise for all interests. I expect GMs to consider this option and take the further action necessary. We brought this matter to the GM's attention well in advance, and should not have to suffer the penalty for their inaction.
Regards,
Halcyon
Post edited by Halcyon - Lost City on
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Comments
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This is so unfair, action needs to be taken!! b:angry
"I don't have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It's a depression. Everybody's out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel's work, banks are going bust, shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter. Punks are running wild in the street and there's nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there's no end to it. We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat, and we sit watching our TV's while some local newscaster tells us that today we had fifteen homicides and sixty-three violent crimes, as if that's the way it's supposed to be. We know things are bad - worse than bad. They're crazy. It's like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don't go out anymore. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we are living in is getting smaller, and all we say is, 'Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials and I won't say anything. Just leave us alone.' Well, I'm not gonna leave you alone. I want you to get mad! I don't want you to protest. I don't want you to riot - I don't want you to write to your congressman because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street. All I know is that first you've got to get mad. "
b:angryb:angry0 -
GM's need fix this issue....holyhell and another big guild have a huge advantage on lands now and have more income for bid on new lands...holyhell leader isnt online from 1 day also missed tw so 99% he is fake bidder...why holyhell can take land also being fake bidder with leader banned?We want land back and 'm sure GM have power for change this thing in next maintanance...0
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As a loyal member in Ascension, I add my voice to my leader Halcyon, we only desire a chance to join the TW this week, missing this specific war will have a future negative unfavorable effect that will hold us back, and as one of the strongest guild in the game ..... well we cant afford it.
We are just asking for justice, demanding for these spiteful people to be punished if they have something to do with the fake bidding.0 -
Do something for Ascension!0
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Banning someone (even if its only 2 weeks) who is responsible for fake guild bid is good warning to all guilds who want to participate in Teritory Wars, but our guild Ascension is in loss and i think that GM's need to do to someting about the land that we lost in unfair way.0
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brilliant thread.
although i doubt HolyHell would do such a thing it can only be a guild with territories already, if you look at the map posted up there u can tell a guild clearly didnt want you guys to reach adc, but who else is going for adc? panic,bloodlust and possibly rangequit im not sure if they can attack adc frommisfortune.....
annother thing that puzzels me is that the they cannot give lands, there should most deffinitly be a way that they could change this at mondays weekly maintence. and theres nothing stopping them from handing u the extra 10m aswell.0 -
Official complaints should be emailed to them and not to be posted here. No offense tho.0
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How can a guild be fake?0
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erethizon1 wrote: »How can a guild be fake?
A fake guild is when an existing guild creates a sub guild for the sole purpose of blocking/restricting access to certain territories by using the fake guild to out bid legit guilds.
Guilds practicing this deceptive technique use it to prevent a rival guild from advancing towards certain areas (once a guild owns land, apparently they can only attack neighboring lands, so putting up a fake guild bid block holds off their advancement by at least a week). Also, once a guild owns many lands, and they fear being attacked on multiple fronts by other strong guilds, they would create sub guilds to "attack" the main guild lands before real enemies got a chance to attack. This prevents the defending guild from getting "spread to thin" defending against multiple attackers, while still allowing them to attack.
For example, lets say a guild has 3 lands that can be attacked by neighbors. It creates 2 fake guilds to bid-block on two of those three vunerable lands. Now, they only have to defend one land from a strong, land owning guild, and can divide their forces fairly equal between defending that one and attacking on one of their neighbors.
At least that's what I have been able to piece together from what I saw on PW-MY and reading these forums since this happened. It's a cowardly technique, to say the least, and I for one am thrilled that the GMs pounced on this as fast as they did.
As for "potential future losses", its very hard to guage. Reality of the situation is, eventually all the land will be taken (btw, unless something has changed, Archosaur probably can't be attacked yet...none of the other versions allowed it, although bidding on it worked, the attack wasn't...just thought I would say that to some of you newer players that might be thinking of going for it).
My point is, saying "this guild or that guild" will have a distinct advantage in bidding will be only extremely temporary. A guild can only attack one land at a time, and once all the lands are taken, if you want what they have, bid on the chance to attack them and take it from them. Just because they conquered an extra land doesn't make them stronger than you. Just attack them. You'll have to do it eventually anyway. If you don't plan on fighting other guilds at some point, you might as well bail out now.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Its quite simple to gauge future losses actually. Our guild has the levels and experience to finish TW in well under 30 minutes this week and will most likely roll over any of the neighboring guilds in PvP TW. However this delay provides them with extra money and time to potentially gain strength, thus possibly keeping their land for longer than expected.0
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If the GMs were not warned beforehand of this happening, then nothing should be done to compensate Ascension.
But all this mess happened because one GM (Ironman) did not took appropriate actions quickly enough while he could have done it. He was warned before the bidding time ended that something was happening. yet he did nothing, and even left his post when his shift was done. It's like a policeman leaving a crisis situation in progress because his shift is done.
The GM is to blame for that, and something must be done to compensate the guild that was screwed in this mess.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thanks Brit for the sig b:laugh0 -
Making a guild for the sole purpose to bid on the land we were bidding on, so we can't take it, is against the rules. But what I don't get is what banning them will actually do. It's like a slap on the hand, going "No! Bad!" and then what? There's nothing.
We still won't get the land. And they still achieved what they were trying to achieve, which means they won in the end. Which I find unfair and it feels like the ban was completly pointless.
I don't think we can demand compensation for it, but I think it'd be fair if we got some kind of compensation.0 -
hmm, isn't this thing normal? i mean all guilds used to use this in MY-EN
why not to use it? it's not a bug, it's your money
and lets say a guild will own half the map in the future. how could it defend it's territories other by having 18 wars/week, (u can have 6 per day i think, or at least 4, 3 at the time, and after some h another 3 or just 1 , don't know)
if u'll say that this will make it impossible to bid on a land, think again, the land owner guild will have to pay it's members and than outbid others by fake guilds, so if u gather enough money u'll be able to bid on it, even easier when around 5 guilds are bidding, a guild will never waste all it's money on bidding if u're afraid of that, if there's no salary, most probably members will leave....IGN: JusT_CooL
Server: Lost City
Guild: ex-Conqueror
__________________________
Follow the example of good GMing
[SIGPIC]http://photos1.hi5.com/0044/475/618/k97TDv475618-02.jpg[/SIGPIC]0 -
While it is true that the fake guilds are violating the rules and they should be punished. They are already punished by the GMs (although that punishment is like a slap in the wrist).
However, the loss in this week's territorial war entirely lies in your fault as an incompetent leader to outbid the fake guild. It is your fault for losing the bid, not the GM's fault. You cannot ask for compensation for your incompetence.
Please distinguish between violating the rules and being competent in winning the bids. Both the fake guild and your guild have equal chances in winning the bid war; you lost plain and simple.
If the fake guild had **** the server, then yes, your guild fully deserve compensation. But it is clearly not in this case. Therefore, please do not ask the GM to compensation for your incompetence.0 -
Do you really think a real guild would have bid there to block us in? Under our KOS they would probably have disappeared overnight, which is exactly why they used a fake guild instead.
And ultima, there were seven bids made on that land in the last 5 seconds - it was pure luck that they managed an outbid with less than a second to go until end of bidding. Please use your ingame ID in future so we know which idiot to kill b:chuckle0 -
Halcyon - Lost City wrote: »
Huh? A fake guild should only have a max refund of 10,000, as it's determined by activity of people in the guild. 180m max refund means... that guild should be pretty active <_<.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
While it is true that the fake guilds are violating the rules and they should be punished. They are already punished by the GMs (although that punishment is like a slap in the wrist).
However, the loss in this week's territorial war entirely lies in your fault as an incompetent leader to outbid the fake guild. It is your fault for losing the bid, not the GM's fault. You cannot ask for compensation for your incompetence.
Please distinguish between violating the rules and being competent in winning the bids. Both the fake guild and your guild have equal chances in winning the bid war; you lost plain and simple.
If the fake guild had **** the server, then yes, your guild fully deserve compensation. But it is clearly not in this case. Therefore, please do not ask the GM to compensation for your incompetence.
In real life people go to jail for stuff like this. Fake bids can in no way be the fault of the bona fide bidder. Nor can the bona fide bidder be expected to outbid the fake bidder. Your logic fails. Artificially inflating a bidding price is illegal, immoral, and a crime. Not the fault of the victim."there is still much to be done"0 -
Huh? A fake guild should only have a max refund of 10,000, as it's determined by activity of people in the guild. 180m max refund means... that guild should be pretty active <_<.
You only receive return for bidding on another guild's territory. Therefore every bid on empty land will show 180M return but actually give nothing. Please try to understand game mechanics before posting inaccurate information.0 -
Halcyon - Lost City wrote: »Do you really think a real guild would have bid there to block us in? Under our KOS they would probably have disappeared overnight, which is exactly why they used a fake guild instead.
And ultima, there were seven bids made on that land in the last 5 seconds - it was pure luck that they managed an outbid with less than a second to go until end of bidding. Please use your ingame ID in future so we know which idiot to kill b:chuckle
Uhmm... I never challenge the notion that was a fake guild bidding. It was; and the guild behind the stunt, was punished. If you actually read my post, it clearly said that I do not support fake guild bidding and that it should be punished.
What I do not agree with is your pathetic request for compensation for your bidding loss. Get this clear in your head. Your loss of TW for this week is NOT due to the fault of the GM. It is due to your incompetency that could not win the bid over the fake guilds.
So what if there are 7 bids in the last 5 seconds. So what if there are 1000 fake guilds trying to **** you over. The 1000 fake guilds will get punished by the rules laid by the GM. But DO NOT REQUEST FOR COMPENSATION just because you lost the bid fair and square.
To make up for your incompetency, you want to KoS me for telling everyone the obvious?
Way to gain respect there... I supposed that I can make a toon in Lost City and get it to 30 and let you PK it a few times to feel better.0 -
Kingofhearts - Heavens Tear wrote: »In real life people go to jail for stuff like this. Fake bids can in no way be the fault of the bona fide bidder. Nor can the bona fide bidder be expected to outbid the fake bidder. Your logic fails. Artificially inflating a bidding price is illegal, immoral, and a crime. Not the fault of the victim.
Huh? artificially inflating a bid?
Do you even know what fake guild bidding is?
A lot of you are confused with the concept of fake guild bidding. There is nothing "artificial" about it.
The best comparison to fake guild bidding is multi-clienting. Because each guild can only bid on ONE territory at a time, having a fake guild is like making a second char playing on a second client for advantage.
The player behind the fake guild HAS EXACT SAME LEVERAGE as the real guild bidder. The fake guild does not have EXTRA gold just because he had make a new guild. The fake guild does not have any bonus just because it made a new guild.
Did you know that it is actually a real strategy in using fake guilds for TW purpose? The only reason why a lot of players are unhappy with this mechanic is because the "penalty" for fake guild bidding is MINIMAL, and thus giving the fake guild's owner more advantage.
If the "penalty" for the fake bidding is more severed... ie: making it more balance, then fake guild bidding will actually be a good strategy in the whole TW concept.0 -
First of all, you need to learn to differentiate between luck and competence. If you lost a coin toss, does that make you incompetent too? Secondly our complaint is regarding the inaction of the GM during the 40 minute window of extended bidding. Having known that the bid was fake, the GM decided to go home and leave the game unstaffed until the new GM arrived. This is greatly irresponsible on their part and also why we deserve compensation for the loss.0
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Huh? artificially inflating a bid?
Do you even know what fake guild bidding is?
A lot of you are confused with the concept of fake guild bidding. There is nothing "artificial" about it.
The best comparison to fake guild bidding is multi-clienting. Because each guild can only bid on ONE territory at a time, having a fake guild is like making a second char playing on a second client for advantage.
The player behind the fake guild HAS EXACT SAME LEVERAGE as the real guild bidder. The fake guild does not have EXTRA gold just because he had make a new guild. The fake guild does not have any bonus just because it made a new guild.
Did you know that it is actually a real strategy in using fake guilds for TW purpose? The only reason why a lot of players are unhappy with this mechanic is because the "penalty" for fake guild bidding is MINIMAL, and thus giving the fake guild's owner more advantage.
If the "penalty" for the fake bidding is more severed... ie: making it more balance, then fake guild bidding will actually be a good strategy in the whole TW concept.
I really think you are the one who is confused. As explained in my previous post."there is still much to be done"0 -
Uhmm... I never challenge the notion that was a fake guild bidding... I do not support fake guild bidding and (that) it should be punished.
What I do not agree with is your pathetic request for compensation for your bidding loss. Get this clear in your head. Your loss of TW for this week is NOT due to the fault of the GM. It is due to your incompetency that could not win the bid over the fake guilds.
So what if there are 7 bids in the last 5 seconds. So what if there are 1000 fake guilds trying to **** you over. The 1000 fake guilds will get punished by the rules laid by the GM. But DO NOT REQUEST FOR COMPENSATION just because you lost the bid fair and square.
Wow I love the Logic here. You have stated that fake bidding should be punished right? The current method of punishment allows the creator of the fake guild to get just what he wanted.
A. Ascension was blocked from TW this week
B. The offending guild was able to get land this week
So they were not really punished right? Punishment should be something that discourages negative behavior. I do not feel that the punishment extended by the GMs will discourage future fake bids, but rather make them a point of strategy. You are advocating outright buying of territories. The only way to reverse that is to give the defrauded guild a chance at TW. That would be punishment for the offender.
Ascension's only mistake in this bidding war was to have confidence in the GMs. Otherwise they could have outbid the fake guild before bidding closed.
Sad lesson learned: DON'T TRUST THE GMs TO DO THEIR JOBS
I hope that the GMs read this post and consider their role in this debacle.0 -
Halcyon - Lost City wrote: »First of all, you need to learn to differentiate between luck and competence. If you lost a coin toss, does that make you incompetent too? Secondly our complaint is regarding the inaction of the GM during the 40 minute window of extended bidding. Having known that the bid was fake, the GM decided to go home and leave the game unstaffed until the new GM arrived. This is greatly irresponsible on their part and also why we deserve compensation for the loss.
Wrong. If you bid a larger amount, then the fake guild won't be able to win. If you know that it's a fake guild, then you should not let it plays out as luck till the last minute. If you know for sure that it's a fake guild, and that the GM has left the building, then you better bid ALL YOUR MONEY, so that the fake guild can't outbid it.
Because of your incompetence that you lost the bid. If you didn't have enough gold, again... it's your incompetence to not have enough gold.
Sure, the GM left the building because his shift is over. Have you ever go to a store at closing hours and demand them to remain opened so you can buy your stuff? The staff is not under any obligation to serve you after their shift.
If you really want to blame someone, blame the whole company for not having GM 24/7. Do not blame a GM for leaving his shift.
I hope that you are clear about your incompetence.0 -
Wow I love the Logic here. You have stated that fake bidding should be punished right? The current method of punishment allows the creator of the fake guild to get just what he wanted.
A. Ascension was blocked from TW this week
B. The offending guild was able to get land this week
So they were not really punished right? Punishment should be something that discourages negative behavior. I do not feel that the punishment extended by the GMs will discourage future fake bids, but rather make them a point of strategy. You are advocating outright buying of territories. The only way to reverse that is to give the defrauded guild a chance at TW. That would be punishment for the offender.
Ascension's only mistake in this bidding war was to have confidence in the GMs. Otherwise they could have outbid the fake guild before bidding closed.
Sad lesson learned: DON'T TRUST THE GMs TO DO THEIR JOBS
I hope that the GMs read this post and consider their role in this debacle.
Yes, I totally agree with you. In my post, I said that the punishment was so light like a slap in the wrist.
The offending guild's members (eg. Director or any ranking officer) can easily create a new "real" guild, and move all their high level members over and bid on land next week.
A real punishment would involve TW suspension for all ranking officers in the guild for 2 weeks.
Unfortunately, I don't think the current game mechanics allow this option.0 -
Ultima have you ever been in a store at closing, finalizing a purchase to see the cashier run out the door because his shift is up? They lock the doors at closing time and then wait for all existing customers to check out before they leave. Should have been the same in this case. If you leave customers hanging because your shift is up I pity your employer, may he fire you quickly.0
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Seems like you are advocating fake bidding as a legitimate strategy. TWs stagnated on MY-EN because the big guilds were able to hog all the lands/income and block attacks with fake bids. TW is the main reason most people moved to this server, as GMs here had promised to clamp down on fake bidding. Its quite ridiculous to suggest that we NEED to bid 20M+ on a mob land when we know no real guild is brave enough to outbid us there anyway.0
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Ultima have you ever been in a store at closing, finalizing a purchase to see the cashier run out the door because his shift is up? They lock the doors at closing time and then wait for all existing customers to check out before they leave. Should have been the same in this case. If you leave customers hanging because your shift is up I pity your employer, may he fire you quickly.
Your example is different. You are already in the store and it hasn't closed yet. So the staffs have to serve because they have accepted you in their store.
The example that I was using is a small store (eg. a pharmacy), the staff was about to lock the door for closing and you barge in and demanding to open to buy your medicine.
If I were the GM at the time, I would weigh the situation carefully... sure this is a possible case of fake guild bidding... but is the server stable? is anyone hacking? If tomorrow's log prove that winning bid is actually a fake guild, then punishment will followed.
As to Ascension suffering from the fake guild challenge, if the leader is smart enough then he can win the bid... if later it proves that he had to spend 30 million to bid and lose 3 mil in the process (because of the 10% fee), then that gold can be reimbursed as compensation.
But losing a bid is not the GM's fault. It is entirely the fault of Ascension's leader.0 -
Halcyon - Lost City wrote: »Seems like you are advocating fake bidding as a legitimate strategy. TWs stagnated on MY-EN because the big guilds were able to hog all the lands/income and block attacks with fake bids. TW is the main reason most people moved to this server, as GMs here had promised to clamp down on fake bidding. Its quite ridiculous to suggest that we NEED to bid 20M+ on a mob land when we know no real guild is brave enough to outbid us there anyway.
No, I do not support the fake guild bidding as of current game mechanic because the "penalty" is too minimal. If the developers were to change the "penalty" and make it fair then it might be a good strategy for the whole TW concept.0 -
So ultima999 has created a forum username just for this subject. All posts by you are on this topic. Come out of the closet. Who are you? Show yourself. Because your logic and reasoning are way off the bubble. You are determined to twist your brain (and everyone else's) into believing that fake bidding is somehow a strategy to be employed. If that's the case you might fit in better back at PW-MY. Strange that your only forum interest would be about fake bidding."there is still much to be done"0
![http://photos1.hi5.com/0044/475/618/k97TDv475618-02.jpg[/SIGPIC]](http://photos1.hi5.com/0044/475/618/k97TDv475618-02.jpg[/SIGPIC]){kind=link}
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