Poor Management
sasquatch87
Posts: 51 Arc User
Someone starts a discussion about account sharing then it's almost instantly removed. This is the only company that I know that doesn't take in it's customers suggestions or ideas seriously. Account sharing has been going on since the start of the game and it's becoming clearer that the one GM is targeting a certain group of people. If pwi wish to turn a blind eye on this then there small player base will get smaller, you can count of on that.
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It was removed because of several violations of forum rules. The OP is lucky that I chose not to give them infractions for the violations in it. If you want to keep a thread that does not violate forum rules such as naming and shaming, ect. That's just fine. (You should also note that I did not give you an infraction either.)
Violate said rules, and it will get removed.0 -
you are lucky sylen is the nicest guy in the world smh or else he might use his pull to get u ban like he has so many others. All hail Sylen0
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Could I ask what the "infraction" this OP made? He is just stating fact is what I read and he didn't name and shame anyone that I can see.
Just so I know and understand .......are "infractions" made up on the go or something depending on what kind of mood someone is in at the time?
Oh to stay on topic, about management, I think sometimes, i'd have to agree0 -
The infractions, either by the OP of this thread, or those that occurred in the other thread shall not be discussed. They are not arbitrary, and are granted based on violation of the forum rules. It's not something we make up as we go along.sarahbella6197 wrote: »Could I ask what the "infraction" this OP made? He is just stating fact is what I read and he didn't name and shame anyone that I can see.
Just so I know and understand .......are "infractions" made up on the go or something depending on what kind of mood someone is in at the time?
Oh to stay on topic, about management, I think sometimes, i'd have to agree
If you do have any questions about the forum rules, please take a moment to familiarize yourself with them.
PWI COMMUNITY FORUMS: RULES OF CONDUCT V1.0 - READ MEH!
Also, please don't forget the Terms of Service.
Peace0 -
phantomforce#4598 wrote: »
The infractions, either by the OP of this thread, or those that occurred in the other thread shall not be discussed. They are not arbitrary, and are granted based on violation of the forum rules. It's not something we make up as we go along.sarahbella6197 wrote: »Could I ask what the "infraction" this OP made? He is just stating fact is what I read and he didn't name and shame anyone that I can see.
Just so I know and understand .......are "infractions" made up on the go or something depending on what kind of mood someone is in at the time?
Oh to stay on topic, about management, I think sometimes, i'd have to agree
If you do have any questions about the forum rules, please take a moment to familiarize yourself with them.
PWI COMMUNITY FORUMS: RULES OF CONDUCT V1.0 - READ MEH!
Also, please don't forget the Terms of Service.
Peace
Wow the force from this phantom is real. Dont get on this guys bad side he'll whack you with the book!
eirghan sage seeker ♥ current gear ♥ youtube ♥ title quest guide
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Lol @eirghan u beat me to that...
Hey talking about books being thrown your lucky I'm not a mod. Love books tho so please don't throw them.0 -
What about GMs that violate their employment contract and the game's own TOS by selectively banning players based off malicious tickets?
I don't spend money/time playing this game only to see my friends get hate targeted and treated poorly by inconsistent GMs who treat the same case differently, based on who they know. This isn't a private server.0 -
I was really hoping for a nicer start, but looks like another harsh reminder is in order.
From the Terms of Service we all agreed to abide by when we decided to play...What about GMs that violate their employment contract and the game's own TOS by selectively banning players based off malicious tickets?
I don't spend money/time playing this game only to see my friends get hate targeted and treated poorly by inconsistent GMs who treat the same case differently, based on who they know. This isn't a private server.
4.12 Please note that regardless of any notice, we reserve the right to discontinue the Service or to terminate or suspend your Account at any time in our sole discretion, for any reason, or for no reason.
also
15.3 We may take any actions and impose any penalties we deem necessary to discourage and punish any violation of these terms or any other illegal or inappropriate conduct, all without prior notice or warning. The determination as to whether a violation has occurred and who is responsible for such act is solely within our discretion, and is based on what we deem best for the community and the Service. By using the Service, you agree you will be bound by our determination as to whether a violation has occurred and any penalty we choose to implement.
and...
26. Disciplinary Action / Account & Service Termination
26.1 FOR ANY REASON WE MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, BLOCK ACCESS TO OR DELETE THE SERVICE OR ANY ACCOUNT OR PART THEREOF, BY GIVING YOU NOTICE OF SUCH WITHIN THE TIME PERIOD SPECIFIED WHEN YOU CREATED AN ACCOUNT OR JOINED A SERVICE, OR IF NO SUCH TIME PERIOD WAS SPECIFIED, THEN WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS OF THE DATE SUCH NOTICE IS PROVIDED TO YOU BY EMAIL OR IS POSTED ON THE WEBSITE OR INTERACTIVE AREA BY US.
26.2 For user violations we may at our option issue warnings and temporary suspensions and permanent terminations of Accounts. We retain the sole discretion as to when and how to impose warnings, penalties and/or disciplinary actions. We consider the severity of the violation and the number of infractions in making our determination; however, any determination shall be under our absolute discretion.
26.3 For the avoidance of doubt, you hereby acknowledge that we have the sole discretion with respect to termination of your Account, even if there are credits remaining on your Account. The termination of your Account entails the termination of the license to use the Service or any part thereof (see section 8).
26.4 You have the right to terminate your Account at any time by delivering notice to us. You understand and agree that, unless applicable mandatory law dictates otherwise, the termination of your Account is your sole right and remedy with respect to any dispute, including, but not limited to, any related to, or arising out of: (i) any term of this Agreement or our enforcement or application of this Agreement; (ii) the User Contents; (iii) your ability to access and/or use the Service or the Website; or (iv) the amount or type of fees, surcharges, applicable taxes, billing methods, or any change to the fees, applicable taxes, surcharges or billing methods.
26.5 You may terminate your Account by delivering notice to us. We reserve the right to collect accrued fees and charges and costs incurred by us before your termination. In addition, you are responsible for any fees, charges and costs incurred to third-party vendors or content providers before your termination.
26.6 In the event your Account is terminated for any reason, or for no reason, no refund will be granted, no online time or other credits (e.g., points in an online game) will be credited to you or converted to cash or other form of reimbursement, and you will have no further access to your Account. Any delinquent or unpaid accounts or accounts with unresolved disputes must be settled before we may allow you to register again.
26.7 If you feel you have been unfairly warned or disciplined, please contact us with a full detailed explanation.
27. Indemnification
27.1 You agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless PWE, its independent contractors, service providers and consultants, and their respective directors, employees, agents, partners, affiliates, and subsidiaries, from and against any claims, damages, costs, liabilities and expenses (including, but not limited to, reasonable attorneys’ fees) arising out of or related to any User Content you post, store or otherwise transmit on or through the Website, your conduct, your violations of these Terms, any misuse of the Service, or your violation of the rights of any third party.0 -
Now please, don't make our jobs any harder. SylenThunder was nice to you guys earlier.0
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GM/CMs represent the service provider and do not constitiute the sole 'We' in the context of the TOS. As customers who pay to keep the game running, we have our rights by rule of law.
It is not about making your job harder nor about being nicer. It is about being right or wrong.0 -
And out comes the Gestapo....
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So, PWI permanently banned my main account for account sharing, without options to recover it. After asking for money chargeback i get again refused. Think any consumer protection agency would help me in this situation atleast to get my money back, so this company can keep those useless pixels?0
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@herbage No, you don't own your pixels, PWE does. The ToS makes this pretty clear. They could permanently shut down the servers tonight, and wouldn't owe you anything. Read 25.6 again.
So lets see what's really going on here....
1. Factions like Vindicate, Hoorah, Legendary, ect. have been sharing accounts and violating the ToS for years in order to keep themselves on top of the Territory War map.
2. The general player base has been reporting this for ages, with relevant proof, and no one has been banned. Worst case that I am aware of, is that a faction leader got a warning and a slap on the wrist. That put a stop to it from that faction, for about a month. Sadly the damage was already done, so it didn't make a lick of difference.
3. The large factions have used tactics like this to keep smaller factions from participating in TW, and to ensure that they didn't have more battles than they could handle. Thus ensuring their ownership of large quantities of land, and income.
4. PWE has finally decided that it's time to listen to the players who have been submitting tickets regarding these actions since forever. PWE is shutting down fake bidding, and those who are violating the Terms of Service in order to give themselves an advantage.
5. In the mass exodus, one or two "innocent" accounts ended up being banned as well. (It's not surprising, but I'd be willing to bet they participated at least a little bit.)
6. Here's hoping the new TW season ends up being more fun for the rest of the server. (Because it's not like the big factions don't intentionally try to **** the rest of us out of other content anyway.)0 -
@joecisco ToS are self made rules by company, which doesnt save them from consumer protection laws. So, if i pay, i have to get something which is a goods or service. Also there is warranty for electronic good, which is not mentioned by PWE company, but which should be. Taking money from people and banning their account basically is a money scam, which may be punished, but so far people tend to skip this part, but one day it might end with huge compensation money if they do this for wrong person.0
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I highly doubt there has been any conscious plotting of larger factions to account share to directly block smaller factions from participating in events like TW. Obviously account sharing does happen by people in larger guilds but it would be wrong to say that that is the only demographic. I have been in smaller guilds as well and account sharing was just as, if not more prominent in the smaller factions due to the tight knit nature of them.
i wouldnt speak for pwi unless i was employed by them. We can take a stab at their intentions but unless they directly tell us we will never know.
eirghan sage seeker ♥ current gear ♥ youtube ♥ title quest guide
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@joecisco ToS are self made rules by company, which doesnt save them from consumer protection laws. So, if i pay, i have to get something which is a goods or service. Also there is warranty for electronic good, which is not mentioned by PWE company, but which should be. Taking money from people and banning their account basically is a money scam, which may be punished, but so far people tend to skip this part, but one day it might end with huge compensation money if they do this for wrong person.
No, it is a private organization that has rules, and it can enforce those rules as long as it is not done in a discriminatory way against someone in a protected class. They don't have to explain themselves. You could spend more in time and money in small claims suing them, than you have likely spent on the game.
When you clicked "I agree", you are held to the terms stated in the agreement. Regardless of what your local or national laws may be. You can attempt using "Choice of Law" in your argument, but it's going to be pretty thin. You accepted the terms presented by the company, which will adhere to the laws in that location. The forum rules have a similar statement in them.
Just to re-iterate this further, here is the opening paragraph to the Terms of Service.
PLEASE READ THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF USE CAREFULLY. BY ACCESSING OR USING THIS WEBSITE OR DOWNLOADING ANY GAMES, YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS DESCRIBED HEREIN AND ALL TERMS INCORPORATED BY REFERENCE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO ALL OF THESE TERMS, DO NOT USE THIS WEBSITE OR THE GAMES. IF YOU ARE UNDER 18, DO NOT REGISTER AND DO NOT PROVIDE ANY INFORMATION UNLESS YOU HAVE FIRST OBTAINED YOUR PARENT’S OR GUARDIAN’S PERMISSION.0 -
[/quote]sylenthunder wrote: »
No, it is a private organization that has rules, and it can enforce those rules as long as it is not done in a discriminatory way against someone in a protected class. They don't have to explain themselves. You could spend more in time and money in small claims suing them, than you have likely spent on the game.
Still those rules are made within the company which doesn`t apply if we talk about consumer protection. Click button isn`t the same thing as sign a paper with the pen.
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That doesn't make it any less binding legally, and it is actually the same.
Here's a neat article to read...
What’s in the small print? Why clicking ‘I Accept’ is the same as signing your name on a paper contract0 -
Also ToS has changed during these years. I began playing on 2009, and new rules have came out, even if i signed up the old ones.0
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That is covered in Section 2 of the ToS. It's basically your responsibility to check it regularly for updates/changes. If you do not agree to the changes, and/or cannot abide by them, it is your responsibility to discontinue use of the product.Also ToS has changed during these years. I began playing on 2009, and new rules have came out, even if i signed up the old ones.0 -
I was out sick yesterday, but as far as my position goes, I can not action on anything regarding specific cases related to accounts. Where the overlap happens is if it runs counter to events I'm running (for example TW seasons) in which I'm able to request an investigation from CS. Outside of issues like this, or conversely, when they bring up issues to me, I don't action on anything or look into what they action on.
My deepest apologies for anyone that I can't help in regards to personal account related issues, but I hope you understand the reason why I'm generally not involved in these processes.0 -
did anyone notice how cool these moderators is ?
lets not talk about your history here slyn with that GM whos back again to violate the rules of pwi.
when a mod speak of the TOS then yea explain what you did with that GM to poor knights players..
@orinj or @kalystconquerer#0876 should take action on what you both doing.
you deleted the thread i created because that thread show how you both abusing your power here0 -
Well, aside from the obvious "Can't encroach on another department I'm not heading", I'm also well aware of the issues that happened last time with GMs, and because of my unique position (long time player who's now become and employee) it is also imperative that I'm as removed as humanly possible from anything regarding personal accounts so that I have the least amount of bias.
I didn't see the thread myself, but is there continued issues again with the same groups of people who were involved last time?
Also, I forgot to mention this but to OP - I definitely look at suggestions by players daily, but don't always comment on them. I have a running list of items to be fixed or addressed as well as any and all solutions I've suggested or will suggest. That being said, even if something is "solved", I'll always look at what can be improved constantly. This isn't quite the topic for having that sort of back and forth about suggestions and fixes, but I am always looking into things!0 -
The thing that really makes me sick is, I'm hearing about one person in particular who is known to sell accounts and another person who account shares with multiple people yet both are back. Yet a friend of mine who account shared got a perma ban but not a slap on the wrist like others did. This is why I'm bringing up [Redacted] as being biased, you stated your TOS clearly and the disciplinary actions that goes with it yet you guys have let this slide for almost 10 yrs not only that your not being fair by the discipline action being taken.
Edited : only to pull the name, since it's definitely clear to me who you're talking about. I'll probably ask about this sometime this week or next week.0 -
kalystconquerer#0876 wrote: »Well, aside from the obvious "Can't encroach on another department I'm not heading", I'm also well aware of the issues that happened last time with GMs, and because of my unique position (long time player who's now become and employee) it is also imperative that I'm as removed as humanly possible from anything regarding personal accounts so that I have the least amount of bias.
I didn't see the thread myself, but is there continued issues again with the same groups of people who were involved last time?
Also, I forgot to mention this but to OP - I definitely look at suggestions by players daily, but don't always comment on them. I have a running list of items to be fixed or addressed as well as any and all solutions I've suggested or will suggest. That being said, even if something is "solved", I'll always look at what can be improved constantly. This isn't quite the topic for having that sort of back and forth about suggestions and fixes, but I am always looking into things!
If the GM who was involved in that issue few months ago is a Specialist Game Master then yea i dont know what we're expecting from a Game master.
its the same person who is doing the banned again for all these guys.
he banned lots of these guys who share accounts yet when you give him proofs that others share accounts with Screen shots he reply with we will investigate about it.... few days later you see the same player playing the game like a boss...double standard ftw
and the funny thing these moderators talking about TOS yet they are breaking the TOS themselves.
you know whats more funny ? where is the Ex leader of Removed (the friend of Removed and the GM)? isn't he in Removed and whos getting banned isnt it 21 players from Removed?
Post edited by phantomforce#4598 on0 -
I think there are few things, few cases which GM takes too serious and they should take more human based approach rather than auto-bot-ToS approach. Hacking, human violation and so on should be taken serious, but account sharing? People share their bank cards, bank accounts and they don`t get banned from bank, but yet in here people can lose their account, and anyways, isn`t it all about profit? More players=more potential profit? I`m not sure why they rate loyal long term players less than new players who might leave after few weeks of playing because not reaching anything in this game, which takes so much time now.0
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No matter how much the players are spending though, if they are negatively impacting the play of others, would that not also reduce the potential profit of the game? New or old makes no real difference, though older players are probably more likely to spend.
Old players though have been leaving in droves due to changes over the past few years. Either because of the lack of support, or just because of changes in development that make the game less and less free-to-play. For the most part, the lack of support has been not punishing those who truly deserve it.
Or, are you saying that you can be as much of an **** as you want, as long as you spend decent money on the game?
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While there may be a basis to believe that there is a bias or unfair treatment, we also have to remember that what our friends tell us is only one perspective... We can't possibly know for sure that we are presented with (as friends of those who were banned) 100% whole story 100% of the time. We don't have the data GMs are looking at. That said, if we do want possibility of bias to be addressed, talking down to forums moderators is 100% for sure going to get us nowhere.
On one hand we have some people in the community complaining about bought accounts going unbanned, then we have the other half of the player base asking why people are getting banned. Point being, I think the mass bans were started as a vindictive action, but PW employees are carrying it forward with those comments in mind while doing their best to please both people who feel it's unfair that rules aren't enforced AND protecting those who were falsely accused. We can all compare notes and say So and So got asked x question and he got banned and So and So got let off with nothing and thats wrong, and it might be, i dont know. But I do know we are lacking the IP address history on that account and other data, so without that we should be a little more cautious before throwing blame around.
We need to be more sensitive to PW employees... And hopefully in turn the GMs are somewhat sensitive to the fact that the reporting recently really was mainly vindictive behavior and not true reports with full evidence of anything wrong.
PS: @joecisco Not that I think it's right to let people break TOS, but keep in mind not everyone is automatically guilty too. There is a lot of grey area. I remember reading your post about your friend that got wrongly perma-banned and how sad he was and you wereOh, I don't like so-and-so, I'll just report them. Then they get banned.
That's what it's looking like is happening here more and more.
Just because we are in different factions doesn't mean there can't be something similar or some sympathy there.
eirghan sage seeker ♥ current gear ♥ youtube ♥ title quest guide
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I understand PWI not wanting to let people account share because it could potentially be a nightmare. If someone were to account share a highly CS'd account with a friend... and they have a falling out and that friend steals all of the unbound items on said account.....PWI would potentially have to figure out what belongs to who etc... It would be alot of work. (this is just an example)
On the other hand... sorry.. it isn't only the larger factions that account share.... it really is everywhere. People account share for a number of reasons many are for: sharing buffs, help with the insurmountable # of dailies each day, login checkin while on vacation/dealing with real life issues etc... While I don't think it will ever happen... if PWI Were to somehow let people ticket and specifically name who they would let share their account I'd be ok with it. But it isn't ok when some accounts that ARE highly CS'd seem to never get punished for account sharing while others who do occasionally or never do... it seems a little lopsided.
There does sometimes too often seem like CS is biased towards one group or another. If this is true.. I do not know because I don't know all the details.
What is perplexing is the population of people who are reporting and getting reported are the ones who are very active on the server. What people are doing is only diminishing the population of players on the server even faster than normal by getting their "enemies" banned. Who are they going to pk? TW? it's gonna get boring fast if you report your competition to the point they all get banned or quit out of disgust.
PS: I also think it's complete and utter BS that you are required to know the date you opened your account or the secret answer to something you created which could be up to 8-9 years ago (even if proven you know everything else and IPS match) On my alt account I'd be totally screwed because I put fake answers to everything in there.. if ever asked I'd lose the account even tho it is legitimately mine.
<~ these need to come back into the CS.0 -
I won't argue that account sharing isn't common, but on the same note, it is not an allowed task. So no matter how common it is, if you are caught in the act, should you not be punished accordingly?
As for the support team being biased, keep in mind that we are only really hearing one side of the story. In fact, most often, the only side we ever hear from, is the party who was punished for the violation or from their friends arguing on their behalf. There is quite a bias there to be sure.
Another assumption is who is doing the reporting. You can guess. You may even know for a fact in some cases because you know the person that did it, and their intent. You cannot know all however, or know what the support team is looking at. Maybe they are also looking at older reports and comparing data from that. We don't know, and will likely never know. It's something for the support team to handle in a discretionary manner.
If you are putting fake answers in secret question responses, and are unable to recall the wrong answers you entered, who is at fault? The account may be legitimately yours, but can you prove it? You might want to so see if you can fix those. There isnt not an option to do so in the account settings that I can see, but maybe if you open a ticket. You would also need to be able to provide other relevant account information to prove you are the owner though.
I really wanted to throw an "Only the Shadow knows" line in here, but can't find an appropriate spot.0
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