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[G17 Weapon] Zenith Skull

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  • sin20sin20 Posts: 237 Arc User
    gret2692 wrote: »
    Dragonic Essence should stay the way they are right now, let's not make those any easier to obtain.

    Honestly though, I'm kind of surprised how many people are actually working towards the last version of g17, feels like there's like 5 people (including my self) working towards it on Dawnglory. As for how the meta will change and how broken 80 def lvl g17 is, good too, let it be. Kind of tired being a cleric (I know it's bond to happen) constantly being chased by 5 people without being able to breathe and then die on the first zerk crit a sin does and make it look like a ''ggez'' gtfo lol. Not enough damage? Yet there's a **** amount of cc (paralyze) and purges (soon to see more purge g17 weapons) to keep 1 or multiple targets locked (hi vortex). I will be enjoying my 80 def lvl weapon later on with the proper effort, time and preparation for it, which imho g17 should be handled very very careful and not to be accessed randomly. Therefore, it should feel REWARDING the effort and time, as well the cost if anyone dares to cash shop it all because of how incredibly broken and expensive it is.

    I'm fine with a slight ease of access with at least Dull Zenith Fragments(?) but the full piece and/or Dragonic essence, should stay how it is. Aside of the time lost of delayed expansion to grind the mat, we should also not give it away for ''free'' simply because 90% the players refused to invest/contribute on their homestead and work towards it, that's their own decision, fault and ignorance to not look ahead down the road what's coming and how OP things will be and change.

    I know at least 6 ppl that make their own daily UP sq so there is a lot of ppl going for it.
    Lets say there is minimum 50 ppl going for g17r5 weps, each one needs minimum 60+ zenith skulls , thats over 3000 zenith skulls needed just for these 50 ppl for 1st reroll (who knows how many tries till a proper reroll).
    By now i guess we can say 15-20 (maybe up to 30) zenith skulls are on Dawnglory max in how many months of farming UP regularly?
    Yea we defo need more ways to get both zenith skulls and zenith skull shards, and while we are at it we can get a new way of getting Draconic essences which woudnt flood the market.

  • gret2692gret2692 Posts: 28 Arc User
    sin20 wrote: »
    gret2692 wrote: »
    Dragonic Essence should stay the way they are right now, let's not make those any easier to obtain.

    Honestly though, I'm kind of surprised how many people are actually working towards the last version of g17, feels like there's like 5 people (including my self) working towards it on Dawnglory. As for how the meta will change and how broken 80 def lvl g17 is, good too, let it be. Kind of tired being a cleric (I know it's bond to happen) constantly being chased by 5 people without being able to breathe and then die on the first zerk crit a sin does and make it look like a ''ggez'' gtfo lol. Not enough damage? Yet there's a **** amount of cc (paralyze) and purges (soon to see more purge g17 weapons) to keep 1 or multiple targets locked (hi vortex). I will be enjoying my 80 def lvl weapon later on with the proper effort, time and preparation for it, which imho g17 should be handled very very careful and not to be accessed randomly. Therefore, it should feel REWARDING the effort and time, as well the cost if anyone dares to cash shop it all because of how incredibly broken and expensive it is.

    I'm fine with a slight ease of access with at least Dull Zenith Fragments(?) but the full piece and/or Dragonic essence, should stay how it is. Aside of the time lost of delayed expansion to grind the mat, we should also not give it away for ''free'' simply because 90% the players refused to invest/contribute on their homestead and work towards it, that's their own decision, fault and ignorance to not look ahead down the road what's coming and how OP things will be and change.

    I know at least 6 ppl that make their own daily UP sq so there is a lot of ppl going for it.
    Lets say there is minimum 50 ppl going for g17r5 weps, each one needs minimum 60+ zenith skulls , thats over 3000 zenith skulls needed just for these 50 ppl for 1st reroll (who knows how many tries till a proper reroll).
    By now i guess we can say 15-20 (maybe up to 30) zenith skulls are on Dawnglory max in how many months of farming UP regularly?
    Yea we defo need more ways to get both zenith skulls and zenith skull shards, and while we are at it we can get a new way of getting Draconic essences which woudnt flood the market.


    I meant going for it full the whole version g17S5 w.e it's called/known; cause I do my DUP with the usual peeps at night east and there's like 4 out of 9 in the squad who will actually work for it, the 7.6k prosperity. Aka more like doing (D)UP daily =/= working towards g17s5, all about that homestead prosperity. Also collecting the whole basic mats it's painful cause it's not only from (D)UP y'know, it's a **** load of sigils to grind ;s

    However, I do not disagree on another way to obtain/access the Zenith skulls, but the Dragonic Essence **** no, let it be; it's hard to obtain for a reason.
  • dregenfoxdregenfox Posts: 713 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    blazerboy wrote: »
    @jsxshadow idk about the barb comment but from what I see people are willing to ignore how tanky people will get despite the fact we don't have the damage to Killl them. Some people think it's possible to perms disarm people good luck always having a Db and Bm working in tandem and always 100% in sync and never miss a opening. Because if a full serenity stone char has the untarget proc and gets ganked for even 1-2 sec window with the he/she can run to China unscathed. Nope people don't think about that they just wanna believe the game will never make g17 affordable and meta.A buddy of mine told me g17.4 is possible now in boutique in China even though it's expensive. Okay guys eventually g17.4 and g17.5 won't ever be affordable just like Rank 9 and NP or the fact 15.0 star chart isn't 100% farmable in a reasonable amount of time now OH WAIT IT IS. Wake up ppl you're clowning yourself...

    The fact remains g17 def wep with a decent proc on a full serenity heck maybe full Jsod is absolutely broken. What will you do? Give us a passive to give us back crit damage? That puts us right back to square one with months of farming a passive for nothing ._. GGWP. Not to mention you give sins anymore damage after rune update and we will all need to sport the def wep while they can sport a atk in untarget or puri spell with full serenity stone and buffs and be aces Now let's all commence the global faceroll of trying to combat that

    Yeah I'm still really not seeing much of an issue here. There will be more of a focus on weapon procs like stacking purges and def debuffs, but people are already using +25 def lvl weapons right now and still dying.

    The skill updates are going to add more CC, more debuffs, and more damage to every skill. Just for mystic I'm seeing at least 20% more damage capability from skills + chi gain alone, and it's probably more for DPS classes. The G17 weapon itself also adds at least 15 attack levels, if not more, and also ~7% more base attack.

    Stack those damage multipliers together and its 1.2(skill upgrades) * 1.07 (weapon attack) * 1.15 (attack levels) = 47.66% more damage. Sure the actual number will vary but this calculation should be close enough vs people using def lvl weapons + full jades + omalley's.

    Now take into account that +80 def lvl is only a net of +40 (remember we are upgrading from R8r def which already gives +25, and G17 negates 15 as well), and I'm just not seeing this "uber unkillable solo the server" panic everyone is talking about.

    Yes, people will be extremely tanky when full buffed and not debuffed w/ def wep, but that's exactly why purge was buffed so hard, and those 100% debuff procs were added to G17, AND they gave casters zerk for 4x damage.

    I mean the whole point of this update was to change the meta and keep the game fresh. The game is moving toward proc-based stacking and team based pvp, isn't that the whole point of an update? What's the point of getting more of the same?

    If people really want a game where an update is simply gear with higher stats than the last iteration repeated ad infinitum, then they could just go play the Exiled Realm of Arborea.
    Post edited by dregenfox on
  • blazerboyblazerboy Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    @dregenfox I understand your point but all the debuffs procs you're referring to maybe you know people going for that. So I can see where you get that argument but everyone I know going for it or who one day imagine going for it they would want as offensive proc is purge (mainly put classes) and zerk for arcane classes. I could totally see the occasional seeker getting a def wep with a 0 def proc to work as support in tandem with SS slash not many others but perhaps I'm not thinking he's enough.

    Moreover looking at some of the phy classes who got the CN wep because it's really worth it for their class(I.E sins,barb, seekers, to name a few) besides the atk level increase of at max 10 the increase in damage is very marginal hopefully skills give them more. But looking at next updates skills I only can see Sins getting a massive damage increase enough to put down the 80 def level weapons. Basically hopefully everyone has a decent geared sin Ik they are common but let's just assume for a second you won't always have one. Since even the 80 atk lvl weapon isn't a counterbalance to 80 def weapon and if by what you said you're ganna see roughly 20% from skill or a little more added to your damage. Total you said 47.6ish? I feel that might be much but we shall see.I don't foresee this as being enough with the def procs that's the part I hate most about these weapons tbh two procs xD.

    No offense but a 25~30 def level weapon does not nearly at all compare to 80 heck no! A endgame seeker with just RB CF set can tank a ton of people np and escape with just 30 def level weapon double that and add 20 seriously!? That doesn't seem like an it much to you? Hopefully this gear becomes meta and a lot of ppl got for debuff procs and what you say is true. But let's be honest our community isn't thousands upon thousand like china it's more hundreds on hundreds. We won't have nearly enough ppl to deal with those weapons. Which is why Im totally in favor of the atk weapons only remove def or at least bring the def one down to 50isnt or heck 60 double rank 8 recast but 80 feels too high when you can also have procs like untarget or puri spell. 3-5 ppl gank a target dead fine but 6-9 seems wayyy too much focus for one target. I'm all for more team play but this seems a tad much. I've nothing against with being tankier believe me sin damage still confuses me why it's so high but making certain ppl nearly immortal is crazy or at least make certain classes locked out of certain def procs. Like why should a barb have untarget in tw? Or a sin have purge when it's literally spam lifehunter till it works 0 time at all? It's not really possible to keep someone perma disarmed the skill doesn't stack or reset its time each time it's casted it's not like paralyze

    Also arcane 4x more damage? Pretty sure it won't be that much since I'm assuming you're referring to zerk crit which if we have max passive and ink dragons it drops 40% and 85% if you have a db buffbot in squad ._. Which I'm sure everyone will keep the moment arcanes have that even though with their crit rate it will make zerk Crits be pretty rare
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  • dregenfoxdregenfox Posts: 713 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    blazerboy wrote: »
    @dregenfox I understand your point but all the debuffs procs you're referring to maybe you know people going for that. So I can see where you get that argument but everyone I know going for it or who one day imagine going for it they would want as offensive proc is purge (mainly put classes) and zerk for arcane classes. I could totally see the occasional seeker getting a def wep with a 0 def proc to work as support in tandem with SS slash not many others but perhaps I'm not thinking he's enough.

    Moreover looking at some of the phy classes who got the CN wep because it's really worth it for their class(I.E sins,barb, seekers, to name a few) besides the atk level increase of at max 10 the increase in damage is very marginal hopefully skills give them more. But looking at next updates skills I only can see Sins getting a massive damage increase enough to put down the 80 def level weapons. Basically hopefully everyone has a decent geared sin Ik they are common but let's just assume for a second you won't always have one. Since even the 80 atk lvl weapon isn't a counterbalance to 80 def weapon and if by what you said you're ganna see roughly 20% from skill or a little more added to your damage. Total you said 47.6ish? I feel that might be much but we shall see.I don't foresee this as being enough with the def procs that's the part I hate most about these weapons tbh two procs xD.

    No offense but a 25~30 def level weapon does not nearly at all compare to 80 heck no! A endgame seeker with just RB CF set can tank a ton of people np and escape with just 30 def level weapon double that and add 20 seriously!? That doesn't seem like an it much to you? Hopefully this gear becomes meta and a lot of ppl got for debuff procs and what you say is true. But let's be honest our community isn't thousands upon thousand like china it's more hundreds on hundreds. We won't have nearly enough ppl to deal with those weapons. Which is why Im totally in favor of the atk weapons only remove def or at least bring the def one down to 50isnt or heck 60 double rank 8 recast but 80 feels too high when you can also have procs like untarget or puri spell. 3-5 ppl gank a target dead fine but 6-9 seems wayyy too much focus for one target. I'm all for more team play but this seems a tad much. I've nothing against with being tankier believe me sin damage still confuses me why it's so high but making certain ppl nearly immortal is crazy or at least make certain classes locked out of certain def procs. Like why should a barb have untarget in tw? Or a sin have purge when it's literally spam lifehunter till it works 0 time at all? It's not really possible to keep someone perma disarmed the skill doesn't stack or reset its time each time it's casted it's not like paralyze

    Also arcane 4x more damage? Pretty sure it won't be that much since I'm assuming you're referring to zerk crit which if we have max passive and ink dragons it drops 40% and 85% if you have a db buffbot in squad ._. Which I'm sure everyone will keep the moment arcanes have that even though with their crit rate it will make zerk Crits be pretty rare

    Well if you think about it, 80 sounds like a lot, but G17 subtracts 15 from that, and R8r subtracts another 25. So the net gain is 40 def levels. That's basically a seeker buff. If def levels really were that op we would see seekers living forever, but that isn't the case. Seekers in actual practice are squishier than a good barb/bm in pvp because they're just a punching bag.

    Same thing today, I tried camping w/ my +25 def lvl in a mass pvp today and quickly ate 3 deaths in a row. I literally just stood there pressing W for 30 seconds and never moved an inch, spammed pots and never went through.

    If you're ever caught in def lvl wep during pvp vs BM/Barb/sin train you just die, period. After I switched to R9rr I only died to a seeker 38k crit, which would have killed me in my R8rr as well. The def lvl wep will only really shine in 1v1 duels.

    IMO the loss of our broken US-version purify proc will be far more detrimental to clerics/mystics than that net gain of 40 def levels.

    I remember a lot of people saying everyone would be getting one-shot when R9rr first came out. I looked at all the gear and skills coming up, added up the totals, and told people that it isn't as bad as everyone is thinking, but all anyone could do was stare at those +65 attack level mods and cry op. All of the stats work together and it's easy to forget about how they all add up, someone with 300 def levels is still a one-shot to anything if they only have 10k p. def.
  • jsxshadowjsxshadow Posts: 1,414 Arc User
    @dregenfox caster get a whole lotta more def lvl from g17 since they didnt use def weapons before due to the lack of purify spell. This kinda gives them a + of 80 def lvl compared to now. There is no balancing this as well.

    80 def lvl is more than a full serenity sharded char. Full josd to no shards is already a massive difference in survivability but nearly double that is simply countered by Caster zerk or debuffs? Are we playing the same game? Pre-zerk classes (cept sins) dont get a massive damage increase with the next update, if any noticable at all. Caster and Archer get a very short debuff that is pretty much useless or GoF which is approx 15% more damage. The overall damage increase from the basic g17.5 weapon compared to r9.4 is at max 10% incl. attack lvl and base damage increase.

    Adding 80 def lvl to classes which didnt use a def lvl weapon before and adding ~55 def level ONTOP of a new defensive proc to all the other class is SIGNIFICANTLY more than thos puny damage increase.

    You guys should watch more mass pvp and how many people are already needed to kill an endgame player. minimum 3 endgame player are needed to kill another starting at max buffs. Add 40% more survivability on average to that and you need 4-5 people to kill someone CONSIDERING you got the right people at habd with gears to match. Overwise that number explodes upwards.

    I highly uege you guys to actually play the game instead of theory crafting on the forums. Every bit of increased survivabilit hurts mass pvp. the longer people live..the higher the chances are to reuse apo/genie/skills/etc. and their chances of survival could skyrocket even when the actual NUMBERS dont look too terrifying.

    It's the same as with another topic we had a few months back. You guys solely look at frigging numbers just as the PWCN Devs must do. You lack the experience to realize what aspects of the game get influenced by those numbers in total and thus completely underestimate the issue thus talking it down thus preventing our Community managers to take action when its due.

    Is anyonw actually playing this game or did the majority of forum user degrade down to number-throwers. Good god people, get a hold of yourselfes and actually experience this game to the maximum extend before commenting on the forums, encouraging GMs to do nothing at all because EVERYTHING IS FINE.

    IJS..."Trump will never be president.", "Ah what bad could really come from Trump being president?" ...well, people always wanna learn the hard way. You'll see :)
  • dregenfoxdregenfox Posts: 713 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    jsxshadow wrote: »
    @dregenfox caster get a whole lotta more def lvl from g17 since they didnt use def weapons before due to the lack of purify spell. This kinda gives them a + of 80 def lvl compared to now. There is no balancing this as well.

    80 def lvl is more than a full serenity sharded char. Full josd to no shards is already a massive difference in survivability but nearly double that is simply countered by Caster zerk or debuffs? Are we playing the same game? Pre-zerk classes (cept sins) dont get a massive damage increase with the next update, if any noticable at all. Caster and Archer get a very short debuff that is pretty much useless or GoF which is approx 15% more damage. The overall damage increase from the basic g17.5 weapon compared to r9.4 is at max 10% incl. attack lvl and base damage increase.

    Adding 80 def lvl to classes which didnt use a def lvl weapon before and adding ~55 def level ONTOP of a new defensive proc to all the other class is SIGNIFICANTLY more than thos puny damage increase.

    You guys should watch more mass pvp and how many people are already needed to kill an endgame player. minimum 3 endgame player are needed to kill another starting at max buffs. Add 40% more survivability on average to that and you need 4-5 people to kill someone CONSIDERING you got the right people at habd with gears to match. Overwise that number explodes upwards.

    I highly uege you guys to actually play the game instead of theory crafting on the forums. Every bit of increased survivabilit hurts mass pvp. the longer people live..the higher the chances are to reuse apo/genie/skills/etc. and their chances of survival could skyrocket even when the actual NUMBERS dont look too terrifying.

    It's the same as with another topic we had a few months back. You guys solely look at frigging numbers just as the PWCN Devs must do. You lack the experience to realize what aspects of the game get influenced by those numbers in total and thus completely underestimate the issue thus talking it down thus preventing our Community managers to take action when its due.

    Is anyonw actually playing this game or did the majority of forum user degrade down to number-throwers. Good god people, get a hold of yourselfes and actually experience this game to the maximum extend before commenting on the forums, encouraging GMs to do nothing at all because EVERYTHING IS FINE.

    IJS..."Trump will never be president.", "Ah what bad could really come from Trump being president?" ...well, people always wanna learn the hard way. You'll see :)

    Random pvp isn't exactly the best indication of balance, half the time there's no veno or one side just has an archer for purge. I've seen a max-geared, full JoSD cleric get combo'ed by a single barb after she got purged. I've also seen DB's 100-0 casters as well. Casters atm are under extremely heavy pressure by a single well-geared sin/barb/DB unless they camp with full cleric/barb buffs.

    Go watch Krissi or Nemki pvp, and count how many times they should have died but lived because purify procced 5 times in a row, making them immune to pretty much every stun/amplify/root and letting them kite 7 people around.

    The point is, in organized G17 pvp there will be more than enough purges/debuffs available to take people down. In random PvP one OP char can get away with a LOT. The next patch will change the meta to require far more coordination, but it also makes this coordination much easier with the variety of weapon procs and more effective CC.

    You're also comparing full endgames to people who aren't maxed, or against non-deity players. How do you expect garnet or vit sharded DPS to compete with full jades? s.

    I'm not sure what you expected to happen if you think every class should go full JoSD defensive builds.
    Post edited by dregenfox on
  • blazerboyblazerboy Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    @dregenfox how does g17 subtract 15? Am I missing a state here? The 25 from r8r is justified but 15 where? Also in mass pk in what way is seeker easier to kill than a bm? All you gotta do is pay attention to marrow and likely he/she will mag marrow get a sin and db on it and it's easy as pie esp with skillls like condense thorn or constellation arc.... You died in def wep because you lacked puri spell despite the defense levels of course. So with 80 def level puri spell even CN and hella tankier the wep will proc. Most arcanes will not give a hoot about losing our version puri spell proc for zerk let alone puri spell CN which next update either way puri spell will be absolutely worthless when sins have it and they can easily out damage DBs therefore puri spell won't be missed imo idk any arcane who even wants puri spell over untarget anyways tbh.

    R9rr didn't have 2 procs also r9rr didn't have a mountain of def wep no offense but the impact r9rr did can't even compare to g17.5 not even halfway. Yes all the stats work together but let's do as you said look at everything added everyone is far tankier now adding more def levels without a proper counter balance and banking everyone will go for the procs needed for the good of the team I.E 0 def procs purge etc etc is wishful thinking imo. Especially when our community just declines declines declines :/. Also any caster getting 100-0 by any duskblades alone at this point needs to gear up because that shouldn't be possible given how far duskblade damage has dropped last two updates. Sins okay but not DB.

    Nemki will survive a gank mainly because his squad has 2 clerics healing him ofc he's ganna survive krissi will survive a gank because clerics have quite a few skills to bolster their defense more than most arcanes also she's very well geared wouldn't you agree? Giving either of them zerk/untarget will be worse xD. Also define organized g17 pvp? Organized as in both sides agree in who's on who's side this only happens inner faction pk -_- not exactly having a place in this discussion. Next patch yes you are correct requires more coordination especially since most ppl won't have the same skill set ups so we all must adjust accordingly which imo is exciting. Most ppl as I said earlier won't have variety as we would all like to hope it's mainly zerk and purge. The only varying one is def procs because one will experiment and deem what they feel is most useful based on their class. At this point DPS idk if that will help much because more hits done more chance wep procs we need more DPH imo
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  • dregenfoxdregenfox Posts: 713 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    @blazerboy Here's an example -

    Class with full Jades + def lvl wep = 145 def lvls.
    Sage deity sin = 240 attk levels.

    240-145 = 95% damage bonus from sin

    Class with full jades + G17 def = 200 def lvls.
    Sin with G17 = 255 attk levels.

    255-200 = 55% damage bonus from sin.

    95-55 = 40. So a net gain of 40 def lvls.

    Overall, after G17 the sin will be doing 155/195 = 79.48% of original damage. Or put in another way, the sin's damage is reduced by 20.5% against G17 def lvl wep.

    If we assume casters don't use def lvl weps, then its 155/220 = damage reduced by 29.5%.

    I'm using sin as an example because pretty much every caster gears specifically to counter sin threats.



    Now lets look at proc rates. If we assume that if the weapon procs, the target will live, then:

    R9rr purify is 14% proc rate. This means ~50% of the time the target will get a proc every 4-5 hits (This feels about right when I try to thicket casters on my mystic as well).

    The untargetable is 5% proc chance. This means ~50% of the time the target will get a proc every 13-14 hits.

    So yes, it's true G17 will be a significantly large boost in defense, but players will also get almost 3x longer to hit a target before their weapon procs. So G17 will come with both benefits and drawbacks.

    The tradeoff is basically choosing between 29.5% less damage taken, or ~3x less weapon procs.



  • blazerboyblazerboy Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    @dregenfox still the fact we have crit nerfs up to 85% is a major big deal. Sin make more of their money from unruly zerk crits so that still remains to be seen there. But the bottom part you explained actually was a compelling arguement tbh makes me feel a little better about that aspect
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  • jsxshadowjsxshadow Posts: 1,414 Arc User
    @dregenfox PvP in PWI isnt solely Assassins vs Caster. There are other classes too, you know?

    The main point I was making is that people are delusional with their numbers. You can throw around numbers as much as you can but that still doesnt change the fact that you all are missing a very heavy point here. Even a 5% increase in survivability can lead to someone being unkillable. Why? Well that is simple. Alot of people just barely die these days when all they have to protect themselves is in Cooldown and enough people are attacking them...if they survive only 10 seconds longer and some of their stuff gets out of CD like AD/Faith/IG and they can life to the next CD due to that as well..than those tiny 5% lead to them being unkillable cause it gets them to the next Apo/genie rotation every time. That is especiall true in case of some Barbs. More often than not they barely die before the charm is ticking/cooldowns are off.

    Besides..where do you wanna get all the venos from now all of a sudden? I see krissi nearly never die as long as she isnt purged or being attacked by 6+ people..if you dont have a veno ready then you dont have a veno ready no matter how much you need it. Besides..if you need a full combo and literally have to purge before killing is even possible without a chance to just DD down some people the way its usually happening these days than no one will die anymore.

    In Mass-PvP/TW it is not 1 person vs an entire squad all the time. its a squad vs a squad. If you cant insta delete someone they habe the chance to use geni/apo/skills or get supported by other people you also need 3+ people to kill.
    What you guys are talking about are perfect situation in which someone has no support whatsoever. Even a little increase in defensive power can make a drastic difference of how many times you die and how the fight will turn out in the end. The more skills someone has and/or the more support someone gets the higher the final quota on survival will be..a 5% in numbers can lead to a 300% increase in survivability more often than not.

    Besides that...krissi is not that skilled and still survives easy due to her average endgame gears (full josd, full +12, eu set)...the majority of people atm is lower josd/josd and only very few people/classes chose to get deity shards to balance out josd and to deal heavy damage (mostly sins/dbs/archer and only very rarely the other classes). I highly doubt anyone will start sharding devil stones all of a sudden no matter which class they are.

    Besides that...my storm is since long outdated (not even as geared as krissi) but as long as I am fully buffed I don't get alot of damage by anyone or anything and especially not by equally geared people..that is without any kind of def lvl weapon nor NP nor serenity stones nor CoM set nor max defensive star chart. CC is always key and will always be key in any sort of PVP and I only ever die when I get heavily CCed + purged + debuffed. The new expansion doesnt give alot more CC to the Classes, just debuffs for the most part...not to mention the massive increase in support power alot of classes get which also barely have any counter to begin with.

    So in conclusion..we dont have 2638626 venos. We also dont have 274826 duskblades and sins to kill every caster at the same time directly after they got purged after an apo/genie and so on.

    Even up to this day whenever I do mass pvp..I can kinda ignore everyone damage wise besides the 2 full deity, Nuema portal psys in black voodoo because they are literally the only ones dealing damage on my Storm even through buffs. Oh now thats OP? No. that is just massive outgearing. Both of them die very fast tho due to having only 50 def lvl :D When we now give them the option to go from 50 def lvl to over 250 due to a 80 def lvl weapon and let them happily switch between 250 attack and def lvl...well...

    You all seem to forget how tanky seeker are...full josd def lvl weap rocking approx 170 def lvl atm and are nearly unkillable buffed..now everyone could reach 200+ def lvl easily with g17...ah will be fine :) we just use more people that we dont even have today to balance that out...cause suddenly the numbers of players will drastically shift..cause of reasons.

    If anyonw still thinks g17 def lvl weapons are great then I dont know what to say anymore. Don't act as if you could use some more survi when you are barely geared vs max gear deity/devil people. Get the same gear and tell me that you still get that much damage. Nope.
  • blazerboyblazerboy Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    @jsxshadow you said you doubt anyone will get devil stone that quick when kanjiro been that way for months now... You're late as heck man SoSinful plans to do full +3 atk stones very soon with max chart as well ggwp xD you gotta know what ya ppl got going on man wolo. Also Ik you were saying it as an example but 5% I don't think would become 300% more survivability that seems a tad too exaggerated lol
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  • dregenfoxdregenfox Posts: 713 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    @jsxshadow - If you'd read the post I'd tell you that while it's true you get an increase in survivability, you trade off by spending a longer time in cc. Currently if you don't kill someone like Krissi in under 10 hits she's almost guaranteed to get a purify proc and then plume, AD, or w/e else.

    Using g17 proc rates the equivalent is 29 hits for the same % chance of purify.

    I know you prefer to "feel" stuff rather than use numbers and proof but that doesn't change the fact that casters will be forced to make a very significant tradeoff once G17 becomes viable.

    The fact of the matter is that no matter how good you are, once you pop your genie you can't do jack **** as long as you remain cc'ed.

    Also, someone like Krissi? EVERYONE will be spamming her with purge weapons and then switching out to a DPS wep. How long do you think her buffs will last at 20% proc rate? Good luck trying to survive with no purify proc, no plume shell, and no ironheart stacks.

    Honestly, if archer g17 purge bow really ends up being a 20% proc, they'd be stupid to go for GoF even on their main DPS wep.
  • jsxshadowjsxshadow Posts: 1,414 Arc User
    @blazerboy no its not xD look at them barbs and bms..even when stacked with 6+ people they barely die before charm tick. those classes didnt have purify before..so the net gain of survivability for those classes is way beyond 60% compared to now...that can make them immortal with support on them as well..there is no discussion needed to tell you that there is no compensation for that increase in survi yet and I doubt there ever will be one.

    For some chars 5% alone will make them able to use another apo/genie/skill shortly before they die which they havnt been able to before. You know that yourself..it happens quite often that you die shortly before you could use another immunity. Even slight increases in def can enable you to do that..and there is no telling if you can then reach even another immunity..you know? Depending on which class you play there really are alot of skills that can keep you alive..especially sins, dbs, barbs, mystics, clerics, venos, psys..heck nearly every single class.

    When people act as if 5% dont matter than they either dont PvP for real, try to solo a whole squad alone and complain about it or they are simply undergeared. At max gear every increase in def weights a ton. That is a fact.

    Full def lvl psys with 300+ def lvl and soul of silence? Well good luck killing that even with 10 people through all that def/buffs/apo/genie/skills/Soul of silence/purify proc or even better with the tidal proc...cause if that stuff keeps ticking and you cant CC/purge/debuff that psy..then that psy wont even die to 30 people no matter their gears. Not only a psy tho :p Barbs/bms that cant be purged/debuffed..oh lord...with over 200 def lvl. Yeah. sure sure. will be all good :) No problem killing that...just that even today those chars hardly die without proc/that amount of def lvl. The new skills balance that out just fine. Of course. New skills will OS anyone not matter the gears...yup. GG WP.

    Guys listen to me for once and think about it harder. G17 def weapons cannot happen. they just dont belong in this game. If you saw me complaining about sins..I rather deal with sins that outgear me 24/7 than to deal with g17 def lvl weapons at all.
  • dregenfoxdregenfox Posts: 713 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    jsxshadow wrote: »
    @blazerboy no its not xD look at them barbs and bms..even when stacked with 6+ people they barely die before charm tick. those classes didnt have purify before..so the net gain of survivability for those classes is way beyond 60% compared to now...that can make them immortal with support on them as well..there is no discussion needed to tell you that there is no compensation for that increase in survi yet and I doubt there ever will be one.

    For some chars 5% alone will make them able to use another apo/genie/skill shortly before they die which they havnt been able to before. You know that yourself..it happens quite often that you die shortly before you could use another immunity. Even slight increases in def can enable you to do that..and there is no telling if you can then reach even another immunity..you know? Depending on which class you play there really are alot of skills that can keep you alive..especially sins, dbs, barbs, mystics, clerics, venos, psys..heck nearly every single class.

    When people act as if 5% dont matter than they either dont PvP for real, try to solo a whole squad alone and complain about it or they are simply undergeared. At max gear every increase in def weights a ton. That is a fact.

    Full def lvl psys with 300+ def lvl and soul of silence? Well good luck killing that even with 10 people through all that def/buffs/apo/genie/skills/Soul of silence/purify proc or even better with the tidal proc...cause if that stuff keeps ticking and you cant CC/purge/debuff that psy..then that psy wont even die to 30 people no matter their gears. Not only a psy tho :p Barbs/bms that cant be purged/debuffed..oh lord...with over 200 def lvl. Yeah. sure sure. will be all good :) No problem killing that...just that even today those chars hardly die without proc/that amount of def lvl. The new skills balance that out just fine. Of course. New skills will OS anyone not matter the gears...yup. GG WP.

    Guys listen to me for once and think about it harder. G17 def weapons cannot happen. they just dont belong in this game. If you saw me complaining about sins..I rather deal with sins that outgear me 24/7 than to deal with g17 def lvl weapons at all.

    If you're really going to talk about a 300 def lvl psy, at least be willing to include a devil-stoned, RB2 NP sin popping eliminates at 600%+ base attack. I'm not exactly sure why that sin would be wasting time with a full jaded, white voodoo psy, but we need to at least make things fair :p.
  • saxrollsaxroll Posts: 1,190 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    I don't quite understand this end of world talk. Yes, defensive version will be strong but it's not gonna break the game. For 1 simple reason, everybody always maxes damage over defenses and for vast majority of people who aren't complete endgame just getting 80 defense level wep is nice but not that massive.

    The tiny minority at complete endgame will be pain to drop and it's no different in the current patch. Basically much won't change as long as G17 is cheap enough. If it's too expensive for your average player then we have a problem but not before that.

    Edit I officially hate autocorrect.
    BlackList vs Frenzied 3/17

  • jsxshadowjsxshadow Posts: 1,414 Arc User
    @dregenfox and you expect this sin to deal any damage? The strength of sins is that they normally pierce through the enemies def lvl since they nearly always have more attack level than the enemies def lvl...280 is what such a sin would have in terms of attack level..even with the new skills...if he'd deal a 10k zerkcrit with the strongest hit on such a psy, max buffed then I would be very surprised. I doubt it.
  • dregenfoxdregenfox Posts: 713 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    jsxshadow wrote: »
    @dregenfox and you expect this sin to deal any damage? The strength of sins is that they normally pierce through the enemies def lvl since they nearly always have more attack level than the enemies def lvl...280 is what such a sin would have in terms of attack level..even with the new skills...if he'd deal a 10k zerkcrit with the strongest hit on such a psy, max buffed then I would be very surprised. I doubt it.

    I think the error here is that you're assuming everyone in pvp is always max-buffed 24/7, can AD/immune at will whenever they want, and are under permanent purify proc status. I have 1400 spirit and no set atm but even I could probably live forever if that was the case.

    Regardless, even with those 300 def levels the psy can still get crit for 15k+ by that sin. There are simply way too many damage mods in PvP.

  • prancingprancing Posts: 133 Arc User
    This game is not balanced around 1 v 1, but group PvP. Traditionally when ppl got high refines us have to work with your team to kill people.

    Right now its possible to get 50defense levels on a qsm weapon. Also consider seekers sac slash, that can lower ppls defense lvl by over 100 for 14 seconds.

    I for one really welcome these weapons and skill updates, so we can finally get some variation and everyone won't be a mirror of each other.
    m5arXCN.png
  • dingo488dingo488 Posts: 924 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    I'm kinda of the exact opposite opinion regarding the G17r5 as Joe... I think its gonna be rather useless to be honest.

    The obvious choice would be to get the defense level weapon, which means it's only useful if you are taking damage, thats how defense level works. But in the current state of the game, if you are taking damage from multiple sources in large scale PvP (not talking about garbo 1v1s here) then you'll end up getting disarmed pretty much 90% of the time, cuz a single BM has a 8m radius disarm with 50% uptime. And obviously if you get disarmed you might as well not have a weapon... Counter-argument would be that with good positioning and such you can avoid all these disarms, but if you have good positioning and are planning to avoid damage and CC then your defense levels serve you no purpose anyway. So 80 defense level weapon sounds beautiful in a completely unrealistic world where you are not fighting any classes that can disarm you ever, but that world is dead, PWI killed it along with all other forms of counterplay. Not to mention your defense only matters when it comes down to survival or death, having 80 defense level isnt always useful even when you do get hit by a bunch of people. The only time defense level comes in useful is when you are getting pressured to the point where you'd normally die which pretty much always involves disarm in some shape or form any way, cuz 10 people using Gush on you isnt exactly how ppl play PWI in 2016 (2017 soon :O )

    Other option would be an offensive weapon that abuses the new procs, which tbh, is prolly a better option... but despite it being better its still not very good cuz those offensive procs arent that amazing. But at least you can properly position to avoid damage and CC and thus avoid disarm and you can at least use your weapon, which is only possible as a ranged class, melee classes are doomed to live a life of being disarmed 24/7.

    Opinion me of course, but worth noting that Im one of the few people that has been relying on a defense level weapon for well over a year (maybe even 2) now, so I kinda know how those things go and just how useful it is.

    - shrugs - Maybe im just salty the BM blade looks like a watering can instead of a blade... but I couldnt be less excited to farm a weapon thats worth billions when I already have a defense blade with almost 40 defense level.

    Turquoise%20waterin.jpg




    IGN: Madskillz
  • eirghaneirghan Posts: 1,912 Arc User
    blazerboy wrote: »
    Btw @eirghan just wants a g17 purge def wep so she can purge us all with vortex and SS ion spike Gemini us dead GGWP that's why she is in favor of the wep >.>

    xD woooow i barely done like 30 UPs and my homestead is at like 2k prosperity and rotting lmfao​​
  • blazerboyblazerboy Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    @eirghan 30 UPS? Over achiever I barely did 10 with 2k and constantly closing down homestead I'll wait for it to be in cash shop
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  • aphroditaaphrodita Posts: 222 Arc User
    0 UP, 515 prosperity :)
  • eirghaneirghan Posts: 1,912 Arc User
    aphrodita wrote: »
    0 UP, 515 prosperity :)

    tiger-24.gif she is trying to outdo us
    ​​
  • zondenzonden Posts: 16 Arc User
    icykisses2 wrote: »
    Adding rewards for heavensfall competition on a weekly basis would be great and would get more players to participate in it as well. Right now having a good time on the heavensfall temple is pointless since there is no incentive for anyone to try and beat anyone else's time. Having rewards for record times will entice people to strive to beat it faster ignoring the glitch.

    Speak for yourself, I'm trying to beat Aster. Not there yet, though.​​
  • blazerboyblazerboy Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    @eirghan okay if she wanna play it like that let's reroll new server without homesteads at all GG WP
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  • jsxshadowjsxshadow Posts: 1,414 Arc User
    That's why I said G17 def weapons are totally broken. When people already struggle to kill a max defensive barb today...how will they do with g17.5 80 def lvl weapons with defensive procs. People always act as if you can just disarm a Player 24/7...GG and good luck doing that while dealing with the rest of the enemy faction and Support and CC and everything else.

    People are being delusional big time. Some players have the ability to abuse every bit out of something...when those players get such a weapon combined with massive support in pvp...they wont die. All this extra time people would need to kill a Barb/BM/Seeker by then give the enemies plenty of opportunities to kill you instead.

    I mean seriously..everyone had that situation in which you still had to attack a barb with 6+ people to kill him and he still survived for nearly a minute even without support. How the friggin hell do you expect that to be when you cant even debuff him anymore due to tidal proc? Or if you constantly only deal 1 damage? Or even as simple as purify spell? On top of 80 more def lvl ofc :D

    @kalystconquerer#0876 Please, if you can, talk sense into PWCN...the g17.5 def lvl weapons cannot happen. They just can't :(
  • blazerboyblazerboy Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    @jsxshadow I guess nobody saw how yuyi demonstrated the focus mind proc and how rediculous it is.... Or hear about the barb or basically turtle dragon in xtw and got that guilds the win gg wp without 80 def lvl can't wait for 80def wep. Like arcanes only think db are problems and sins ok but when it starts affecting them when sin get paralyze then suddenly it becomes a problem. Why waste your breathe at this point I'm just waiting to say I told you so.
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  • jsxshadowjsxshadow Posts: 1,414 Arc User
    blazerboy wrote: »
    @jsxshadow I guess nobody saw how yuyi demonstrated the focus mind proc and how rediculous it is.... Or hear about the barb or basically turtle dragon in xtw and got that guilds the win gg wp without 80 def lvl can't wait for 80def wep. Like arcanes only think db are problems and sins ok but when it starts affecting them when sin get paralyze then suddenly it becomes a problem. Why waste your breathe at this point I'm just waiting to say I told you so.

    It's in human nature. People only learn when it hurts. Never do they learn beforehand. NEVER. It's impossible. Either a change is forced or it doesnt happen at all. That's humans for you :D
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