Twilight Temple Mod/GM Abuse Update?

daymond · June 2016

After a lot of careful thought about everything that has happened to my guild, me, others, GMs, our community, etc. through this incident/drama. I have decided a few things.

I really want the end result of everything to be a positive one.
It's really important to me that we come together after this and shift our community in the right direction.
Attitudes have been so negative for so long around here, including my own.
Over all... a lot of positive things have actually come about due to this.

Oranj made a team to solve the PWI Plushie problem that has been ongoing for a year, that will finally be handled.
Speaking w/ Danavid & BearClaw, I learned a lot that I didn't know before. I legitimately enjoyed speaking to them when I didn't think that I would.They won me over even when I was really irate.

People who won community contests last year, they too are finally being awarded (myself included).
Despite me being difficult and stubborn, despite me being accusing, the GMs were polite to me as I too would like to be polite to others. I like to tell the officers in my guild, that they must fight negativity with positivity, and that their positive attitudes must overpower the negative ones. Their positive attitudes overpowered my anger with a situation, and when I was done talking to them my faction was surprised (and probably annoyed too) at how my interactions with them had really calmed me down.

I actually felt bad for causing Navadin such grief. Even though I do not agree with how the situation was handled, I understand that there is a person behind that character. People make mistakes, and to be honest, would any of us want to deal with us on a daily basis? Look at our attitudes on these forums. Yeah, I agree, TONS of things have been screwed up and I'm just as pissed off as anyone with all of the broken promises and lack of accountability.

We proved that banding together as a community and demanding a results/response can get one.
I think though, that banding together in mass with a vision of what we want and positive energy could actually be much more powerful.

The banned characters are unbanned,
They'll be compensated the items they spent.
The big boss is actually paying attention to us, their flagship title.
The community got an apology and someone actually took responsibility for once. They said yeah, I messed up, I am sorry, and I am going to hold myself personally accountable. I don't know about you guys, but oh my god... as someone who has been here for 8 years and been pissed for the last several, that meant so much to me... after that, I wasn't even mad anymore. I couldn't be. That legitimately meant so much to me and I can't even put it into words properly. I think I'd been waiting for that from staff for years and didn't even realize it.

So, in an effort to promote good will, here are the things I am going to do:
- I've taken down all of my social media posts on this topic
- I've edited + proof read the large summary of the event on my forum for accuracty
- I am not going to ever post my full video of the conversations with the GM's. They meant it to be private.
- (I'll post something else on the topic later instead on my youtube)
- I'm going to make an effort to make amends between myself, Sylen, & Artaeria
- I'm going to make an effort to make amends between our guilds
- I'm going to take some initiative to get some more players here, and go write a positive review on steam
- I recommend you guys write some too
- I'm going to try to form a group w/ some of the game's largest guilds' leaders or influential persons and maybe we can figure out how to use our influence to organize and get some things actually done around here

I'm naming, but I'm not shaming anyone.
If I am in violation feel free to edit post.
- Kniraven

stells · June 2016

This is a highly public situation and one that requires a public response as to what has happened to not only the banned players but also the GM and Moderator in question. It would be wonderful to have some sort of update on this issue.

abuanen · June 2016

ya this has to be fixed GM banned whoever he want claiming that the guy break a rule then he get banned.
and when we try solve we cannot reach or fixing GM issue even with evidence.
im customer 500$ dollar per month not going to spent a dollar unless the fixed.
We were promised you would respond to the issue publicly. Where is the response?

misticcat1 · June 2016

This issue needs to be addressed publicly as far as what has happened to the banned players; and to the GM and Moderator for their role in this. This issue should not be and can not be just swept under the carpet and forgotten about or it could happen again. If players are held to the rules then so should the GM's and Moderators.

raistlin7719 · June 2016

Un-banning the people who were banned is only half of the solution here, there needs to be visible accountability for such a privileged position as GM and/or Moderator is abused in such a manner. How can we honestly be assured a situation like this wont arise in the future?

dragonkiller4ever · June 2016

post is mostly an annoying request, doesnt contribute to the improvement of the community or the game itself.

dblazen1 · June 2016

>It's been nearly 12 hours
Oh boy oh boy not even a day has passed, get the pitchforks!

One would think almost everyone would know by now how slow PWE is with everything.
I really wish people would stop acting like they're stupid while they very well know a lot better than this.

Let them figure out from logs what happened, or whatever it is they are doing, and then see later what happens.

iamluckingfoco · June 2016

You know, I watched the video that was posted about the GM "abuse" and what I saw was two annoying people. One chump, his chumpette wife and two giant bunnies, egging on the GM, especially by the chump who kept summoning his giant bunny on top of the GM over and over again. Seemed like he and his wife were both being annoying little twits acting like prepubescent juveniles, and said chump deserved the ban.

I've been playing MMOs for almost two decades and I've seen GMs ban people for far less. In my opinion, the guy being an annoyance deserved what he got.

Sure, you can stand wherever you want in the game, but the chump and his chumpette wife were far FAR from 'innocent' little angels they seem to claim to be.

demansfairy · June 2016

@iamluckingfoco
Agree with this, I honestly thought it was the other faction who posted the video bc it seemed agianst those 2 knight members, not for them.

Also can a GM please mute these people on wc? Everytime I L9ok on game I just see them spam the same message over and over.

beast21g · June 2016

you know when there is a problem GM contacts you in game and trying to find a solution 1st before any further actions right?
i didnt saw any pms by GM side.

Although still waitting an official statement

paralleogram · June 2016

and what about before the gm even arrived to that spot and they were moved?

I'd also like to hear from PWI. Enough is enough already. There have been several instances brought to their attention on forums (which subsequently were deleted and given a blanket statement) about excessive GM abuse. Then there are the rumors that could be true but no solid proof has yet to be provided.

My posts about the MOD have been deleted so I'll make a formal complain via the ticketing system.

dblazen1 · June 2016

paralleogram wrote: »

and what about before the gm even arrived to that spot and they were moved?

I'd also like to hear from PWI. Enough is enough already. There have been several instances brought to their attention on forums (which subsequently were deleted and given a blanket statement) about excessive GM abuse. Then there are the rumors that could be true but no solid proof has yet to be provided.

My posts about the MOD have been deleted so I'll make a formal complain via the ticketing system.

They are already stated that they are looking into it and we should get an update sometime soon(tm)
Complaining about deleted posts is literally one of the most useless things you can do at this point

iamluckingfoco · June 2016

superfedee wrote: »

@iamluckingfoco or the GM could've simply repositioned himself mid air so he couldn't get a bunny onto himself? but what are we even talking about? banning a faction's accounts because one is standing on your place? are you a kid? kids shouldnt exercise authority, kids shouldn't manage a clientbase that pours tens of thousands dollars in your pocket.

Customer is always right, did we forget that?
What is PWI w\o customers? A bankrupt company!

If you work for a company and clients shat on you, you eat the **** and move on, thats your dvcking job you are being paid for.

You don't like that? Resign and leave your spot for someone else that would actually act professionally and wouldn't stir up a hornet's nest for the silliest of the reasons, and still reasons that you anyways don't have because, as i said, you are paid from the company, that is paid by us, to act and behave in a professional way.

You may think the customer is always right, but, ever been in a restaurant and seen an unruly patron or party when the manager has to get involved because they are harassing the server and other customers around them? The manager tells them to leave, even without them paying their bill, or calls the police because that person/party is harassing others around them. I've seen customers in stores asked to leave. I've seen customers in stores banned permanently from stores. I've seen people banned from malls or arrested for harassing people, so NO the custome is NOT always right. A customer that harasses others is NOT a customer. So, some chump harassing a GM over and over again in this case, should be like a customer being unruly in a restaurant or store. Banned from coming back.

daymond · June 2016

@demansfairy

1.) There are several screenshots which precede the video, in these screenshots a player-mod who shall not be named threatens members of a guild for standing in their special spot. These SS obviously can not be shown here but I am sure you can find them.

2.) In the video you speak of, the GM is invisible for most of it. Surely you are not suggesting that summoning your pet in the vicinity of a stealthed person consitutes harassment, and justifies repeatedly being teleported outside the boundaries of the map multiple times, booted from your character, and an eventual permanent ban with no verbal warning or instruction.

In any case,
the community has brought attention to the incident and gotten this inustice partially fixed. The person has their toon back. I still want to see a public address though and know how they will prevent this kind of arbitrary abuse in the future. No person or guild should receive special treatment

iamluckingfoco · June 2016

daymond wrote: »

@demansfairy

2.) In the video you speak of, the GM is invisible for most of it. Surely you are not suggesting that summoning your pet in the vicinity of a stealthed person consitutes harassment, and justifies repeatedly being teleported outside the boundaries of the map multiple times, booted from your character, and an eventual permanent ban with no verbal warning or instruction.

Running back and doing it over and over and over and over and over and over again however is harassment because you KNOW that person was doing it on purpose.

dblazen1 · June 2016

daymond wrote: »

@demansfairy

1.) There are several screenshots which precede the video, in these screenshots a player-mod who shall not be named threatens members of a guild for standing in their special spot. These SS obviously can not be shown here but I am sure you can find them.

2.) In the video you speak of, the GM is invisible for most of it. Surely you are not suggesting that summoning your pet in the vicinity of a stealthed person consitutes harassment, and justifies repeatedly being teleported outside the boundaries of the map multiple times, booted from your character, and an eventual permanent ban with no verbal warning or instruction.

In any case,
the community has brought attention to the incident and gotten this inustice partially fixed. The person has their toon back. I still want to see a public address though and know how they will prevent this kind of arbitrary abuse in the future. No person or guild should receive special treatment

Just because I can:
Read the ToS, 4.12

Kinda funny how you say no one should receive special treatment, right after demanding special treatment in the form of *you* wanting a public address and knowledge of how they will prevent this in the future, hmkay, business practices are not our concern.

But whatever, we should be getting that anyway as arspaulina, or whatever her name is, said they'd give us an update.

To be fair, i'm more curious what was meant with the harassment for a year now, if it was simply standing in the same spot, or members of one guild pm'ing **** to members of the other.
Doubt we'll ever get to know that, though.

bloodedone87 · June 2016

superfedee wrote: »

@iamluckingfoco or the GM could've simply repositioned himself mid air so he couldn't get a bunny onto himself? but what are we even talking about? banning a faction's accounts because one is standing on your place? are you a kid? kids shouldnt exercise authority, kids shouldn't manage a clientbase that pours tens of thousands dollars in your pocket.

Customer is always right, did we forget that?
What is PWI w\o customers? A bankrupt company!

If you work for a company and clients shat on you, you eat the **** and move on, thats your dvcking job you are being paid for.

You don't like that? Resign and leave your spot for someone else that would actually act professionally and wouldn't stir up a hornet's nest for the silliest of the reasons, and still reasons that you anyways don't have because, as i said, you are paid from the company, that is paid by us, to act and behave in a professional way.

I am sorry but if you work for a company or you work in restaurant or in a shop or anywere were you have clients does not mean that the client can do whatever he wants.
For exemple a client in a restaurant calls the chef to complain about the food and takes the food and put on the chef head than the chef has all the rights to call the security to escort the client outside of the restaurant.
Its not: ,, I am your client, you are my bi...,,

Customer is not always right, he has to prove he is right first.

The problem in this situation is the way PW is handling this things and that is by not letting people discussing about it.
I understand that the the first thread was closed cause naming and shaming but they should have let one thread open were people can discuss it and eventually the truth would come out.
When GM closing threads made people see it like this: ,, Aha so they close threads, that means they do not want people to talk about it so the GM is to blame here,,

And do not bring the ,, they closed the threads for investigation,, cause this is like saying that the police should forbidd media to talk and debate upon accidents and crimes cause they are investigating.

daymond · June 2016

I believe he was standing in that location on purpose, because "Moderator-X" had made a threat about getting people in trouble for standing there.

halnor · June 2016

How's this for GM abuse. You sit there get a report that you did not receive any gold because you owed money. You present the GM with actual proof that the transaction went through and no money was returned like they claimed. This is after contacting your bank, and verifying no money was returned to your account. Then you get threatened with a ban for presenting said proof, and asking to speak with a different GM. Preferably their supervisor, or another GM that isn't escalating the situation unnecessarily.

dagoddominator · June 2016

please dont derail the thread.

its so funny how ppl keep saying the banned persons were antagonizing the GM, when the entire series of events were not even actionable things. the "GM" never pm'd or made any text demands or requests, returning to a spot to do what you were doing is not bannable, there was nothing wrong with summoning your pet and positioning your character in a specific spot.

i would find it most enjoyable for many of you naysayers to become victims of a rampaging GM yourselves so we can ignore your pleas for support.

this episode of bullying is ridiculous and should never have happened, the conversations i saw indicate special treatment that one would expect in a small private server.... not a commercially managed game. ToS does not make unfair applications of the rules the company posts legal (but we are not talking about lawsuits here) or RIGHT.

keyword here, RIGHT. they can do what they want but we have a right to protest in whichever ways we can to make our displeasure known. the company can work to smooth things over, or ignore the dissenters. it all depends on whether they believe their bottom line will be affected. this community of players has proven that we wont stop charging for the most part but enough bad press DOES affect their image and as a company they have to respond to that.

still, ill wait for a response from @thenamesdomino ...... whenever "soon" happens to be. whatever it is will probably not be very specific or honest and we will get 3x for a weekend most likely as a hollow mea culpa.

darky26 · June 2016

daymond wrote: »

This morning all threads were closed/moved including one created by a mod specifically for community discussion, and the promise was made that there would be a n update on the situation. Where is the update? It has been nearly 12 hours and I am pretty sure nobody is still in the office.

12 hours is not much time. I wouldn't even consider it enough time to clearly investigate the situation. They said that they are looking into this and they'll update when they know more. We have to wait, there is nothing wrong with that. I appreciate it that they take it seriously, and I'd like them to hear all sides, both factions, all the people involved, e.t.c., this will take time. Rushing it, would make me a bit disappointed, in the sense that they didn't hear out all people and didn't try to find all evidence.

I saw the video and the screenshots. I have many many questions, the situation is far from clear. I'm sure that it's the same for the people investigating it. Let's give them time to do what has to be done.

As for the video and the problem:
To me afk spots are first come, first served/stays, so if I go to a place that I like and it's taken, I go to another place that I like. As long as a spot is empty, everyone has the right to stand where they want imo. If there is another person, the polite thing would be to stand, but not cover the other players. Everyone can stand together, why argue about a spot??

The screenshots were before the video or after? Cause it can change a lot of things on what happened.

Who was there on the notorious spot first?

A ban for an afk spot sounds a bit silly to me.
There are many things that still aren't clear. The timeline of the events, who started it, when, why, e.t.c. I need more info and I would assume the people investigating it too.

*edited* as I got replies on several of my questions on the youtube channel. Ty!

Thank you arspaulina too, for looking into this and for keeping us updated!

arspaulina#4310 · June 2016

Hello guys!

So unfortunately there are no updates as of yet going through the pipeline, but they're still looking into it. PWE's office hours are from 10AM-6PM PST if I remember correctly, and if you got answers to tickets past that point it might have been handled by someone else. I'll be keeping a silent eye on this thread but if no real in fighting is occurring and it gets randomly pulled again, I will throw my tea in someones face. (But yes, please try not to derail the thread)

I doubt people want a speedy resolution that didn't take all points of evidence at least into some consideration. For all parties involved I know it must be absolutely frustrating but I'd rather there be some period of time for a full investigation than a fast turnover on a decision. Feel free to keep discussing it and making your voice heard and I'll keep poking around for you guys.

nbreaking · June 2016

Throwing in my 2 cents.

Click here.

He has very selective screenshots and his video only shows a very selective moment. It doesn't show anything prior to that.

What I think is that, this guy is clearly being annoying as hell. He was being moved, however he insisted on going there again.
Someone was saying "but the GM didn't even PM him", how do you even know? He didn't PM him in the video, but maybe he did before. The GM was in stealth and then appeared, and what did this guy and his guidette wife did? Stand on him multiple times with a giant bunny.

He got banned for a minute, that was a warning, then banned again, 2nd warning, then banned permanently. He knew damn well what he was doing.

Yes, I do believe the GM acted on said Mod's behalf and gave him special treatment by doing so, BUT, the guy was being annoying as hell. Ofc it's easier for a Mod to get support from the GMs, should it be this way? No, but it is, like it is on so many other places in real life.

Lastly, for all of you demanding that this ban be removed or even that they come public with this, they don't have to do any of that. You abide by the rules they established, and here's a very pleasant one that you agreed to:

ToS 4.12: "Please note that regardless of any notice, we reserve the right to discontinue the Service or to terminate or suspend your Account at any time in our sole discretion, for any reason, or for no reason."

Is it right? Is it wrong? Doesn't matter, you agreed to it.

TL, DR: I don't think you should believe in everything that person says. I think you should hear both sides of the story and then judge. Also, they don't owe anyone any explanations and the guy was being super annoying.

beast21g · June 2016

lets say that you have an account with a value on 10-15k US dollars

Lets say that you didnt do anything bad and a GM wake up with bad mood and didnt drunk coffee yet and you got banned.
Then on forum we say to you ToS 4.12 you will feel ok with that?
@nbreaking

nbreaking · June 2016

beast21g wrote: »

lets say that you have an account with a value on 10-15k US dollars

Lets say that you didnt do anything bad and a GM wake up with bad mood and didnt drunk coffee yet and you got banned.
Then on forum we say to you ToS 4.12 you will feel ok with that?
@nbreaking

First of all I wouldn't come to the forums with this issue, believe it or not PWE is quite flexible with bans if you talk to them via ticket nicely and you're not some dumbass.
Second, if I did come here, no, I wouldn't feel better, however I'd understand that rule exists. I'd still want my account back but I'd understand they don't owe me an explanation.
Third, that was not what happened here though. The GM didn't just think "oh, i feel like banning someone today" and did it, ijs.

dagoddominator · June 2016

@nbreaking

tl;dr: you assume we all believe that person's side 100%. we are not disputing whether or not his actions were annoying, 90% of the world chats are annoying and almost quite bannable yet i dont see the million-tele-using people being banned or hounded down.

simple as this, GM intervention and choosing sides over a dispute over afk spot was crazy. the idea that a GM can just relocate you to placate somebody else is the problem here. petty.... yes very. abusive.... yes very. the ppl who were banned were not doing anything punishable. you cant just tell a person they cant stand there, that opens the door to so many frivolous tickets and GM actions, and i KNOW management doesnt want to be dealing with a flood of tickets regarding something ppl should just get over.

people are more concerned that this frivolous set of **** was given credence by the GM, and moreso that a known forum mod used his influence to get it done when any other instance would be ignored because its frivolous.

i really dislike having to refer to the amount of money spent on a given account in terms of the response given to complaints, but i would lay that at PWE's feet for making so easy to arrive at that point. i would consider myself a low to median spender, but lately i have been very unmotivated to spend my money for various reasons that are not subject to conversation here.... but seeing certain players receive special treatment due to their status as a mod or ones' status as a big spender..... i think i'll keep my wallet shut so quitting is inevitably easier.

a healthy game requires a helathy environment and if the GMs can be manipulated to further one parties agenda in a pretty childish argument then this is going to just let everyone know that this game wont be managed fairly and those with the inside track can do what they want.... so why spend your money there if you will be randomly banned for offended a privileged party?

hammerdindin · June 2016

@nbreaking I will say I have waited all day yesterday and today for some bit of evidence on meteora's behalf, yet Noone has produced any. All these people are like "we have proof, we have proof", yet I have seen none. With all that has happened, don't you think they would want to come out and clear their name if they had this "proof" they so speak of?

Until they provide proof one way or another the most credible accounts are from those that have provided proof and that is from the knights members

bastille30 · June 2016

I hear and see all the comments for Terms and conditions Quote, etc. And I can understand how all third parties have a want to justify one side or another.
However let's stick to the facts.

The hearsay about what faction did to another faction currently is just that, hearsay. You may have an opinion about it, I may have one too but it truly is irrelevant and should also be irrelevant to PWE management. Normally restaurant managers (just to quote some of the roles exemplified above) are not really caring of who is dating who in their restaurant or who doesn't like who, as long as it does not disrupt the other customers. I think the debate you are having in this thread is did the 1st and original act truly disrupt anyone or was this over-reacting due to the personal relationship that employees/contractors/representatives of the same company have? Did the manager come in and clear up a fight in the middle of his dining room? Or.. Did the manager's best friend text him saying.. "hey, the dude that took my gf is at your restaurant and he is looking at me funny being an ***, can you kick him out?"
That's why I just like to stick to facts.

In the evidence in place (and I am not just speaking figuratively, this is actual evidence and facts), here with PWI and in other regulatory agencies that oversee corporate conduct what we see is this.

1. We have screen shots of the Leader of a faction claiming to have rights over a specific spot of PWI and being upset that others are not taking heed to her warnings that no one else should stand close.

2. Screen shot of A Forum Moderator who is member of a faction who's leader doesn't like others standing to close to them and a conversation with another player in PWI about how upset he is that people are porting next to him and his friends. We also see the polite response of the other player who apologizes and acts in every way respectful in spite of the aggressors approach.

3. We do have a video showing a player standing in a spot with a pet next to the same person who we see in the prior evidence presented. We see in this video a GM pop in and without any contact remove the player from the place . Just to use the analogy others have here. This is the part where the restaurant manager walks up to the guy who was looking at his friend funny, takes his food without a word and pushes him out the door. Right? Not right? Hmm.. In the corporate environment I can tell you, Not right.

4. We do have in the same video the guy who, came back a couple of times to stand on what spot he considered his spot and the same scene repeated.

5. In the video we also see that after a couple of times of the GM kicking the player to the edges of the map he does ban him. So this is the part in which the restaurant manager (for our analogy) has not only kicked the guy out but put a sign on the door that he is persona non-grata (unacceptable or unwelcome person). This last step would have been absolutely warranted in my opinion, had there been any kind of interaction prior to that event from the member of the management staff to the customer, and if the customer continued to do something he was told not to do by a member of management.

6. We also have on record the leader of the faction who claimed to own pwi real estate and had the no trespassing signs up stating that she'd have the GM come back. This allows us to infer the inappropriate collusion that has been implied since the beginning of this complaint.

7. We also have on record the attempts to report this behavior in forums thwarted by the same forum moderator member of the faction of which that leader runs.

So, in conclusion. We can have our opinions about the subject but there are some very clear cut ways in which businesses are expected to operate with their customers. In the US there are regulatory agencies to ensure that businesses who operate with impunity or otherwise inflict financial, emotional or other damage to the customers who in good faith invest in their operation are exposed, and if it applies also provide compensation of damages.

All of us spend money, time, effort but primarily lots and lots of money that PWI encourages us to spend with the understanding that erratic, unjustified behavior will not happen from their business end and that due process is to be followed in all instances. That is the spirit of the terms and conditions, "if you do bad we will kick you but don't worry we'll investigate before we do"

It is not unreasonable, in any forum to expect due process and an escalation path for grievances. Based on the evidence so far presented, that was not the case here.

If favoritism based on Nepotism was done in this case. It should be addressed and if there is actionable evidence all avenues to rectified should be pursued. Because if it happened to this person, it can happen to anyone else. I don't know if this person played for 7 days, 7 months or 7 years and I don't know if like myself has spend tens of thousands in this game or if they spend 10s of thousands of hours farming. Either way, to have them be subject to this kind of abuse of power is not only unfair, is a warning to anyone else who may come across this GM or this MOD and does not abide by their demands no matter how silly (a standing spot really?) or how far-fetched they are. For all we know, the partnership between these 3 (the faction leader, the mod, and the GM) has been an ongoing issue and this happens to be the first time they were unfortunate enough to get caught on video camera.

Thank you for your time.

PS: Based on the historical destiny of any posts regarding this subject that disagree with the forum moderator and the deletion of previous posts, be aware that this post is being recorded as filed

Twilight Temple Mod/GM Abuse Update?

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