A non-cash shopper experience

kyoske · July 2015

You know when they announced the 9 million reward i was happy, because for me it was a way out, sure the price of things would raised but it was still coins that i could save for future use. Now i see that PWI and some players are concerned with the state of the economy and i agree that things seem cheaper now than before but Im asking this question and pointing to the F2P players like myself. Do you have the coins to purchase those cheaper items now? I asked that because i dont. Now it could be that im playing the game wrong or that im lazy or it could be that the decisions made my pwi have finally brought this game to a state where only cash shoppers can survive.
Lets take a look at our farmers/merchants, the current state of the economy have forced most of them to sell their items cheap to the point where they arent making much profit, i mean G15 weapons are like 18m-25m and G16 which should be alternative end gear can be bought for 40m and tbh no one wants to sell that cheap but we need the coins. NW aint making much profit unless you're one of those scoring like 400+ tokens and lets face it with the Subs removal from bhs and the price raise the TT market is dead most times, Thank God for the few times we get 2x. COF is also an option but one mistake can make all the money you put in to make it to an advance room go down the drain. Right now i would describe PWI farming/merching system as one big Casino.
A lot of people said that the amount of coins in the game was the problem but that isnt true, the real issue were some of the players (greed) and the fact that pwi introduced a mechanism that allowed these greedy players to kill mobs while being asleep and of course they thought they were smart with the auto-pot stone but lets be honest even my g16 bm could kill a couple mobs without the auto-pot and i wouldnt have to worry about dying. Players who abuse the system and PWI who so foolishly tried to solve the problem the wrong way is killing this game for F2P players like myself. I guess i was dumb, you see i didnt bot or did crazy fcc to lvl a bunch of alts to fsp with. I played the game how i think it was meant to be played, sure CSer would have the edge but thats natural and understandable. The thing is even though i didnt exploit these things i was able to make 70m for my g15, 85m for my lunar robe and enough coins to finish my g16 just by doing FWS, NW, BHs and the little mobs i killed while i did BQ and Morai. What im saying is that though things were expensive back then atleast i had some coins coming in to get stuff done.
From a business POV the CSers are important because thats where the money is coming from, but i think every player in their own way can fill up PWI pockets. Im sure there must have been one instance where an F2P brought a CSer to this game, because thats from what ive learnt thats the best way to advertise any business, Tell a Friend, but thats not happening. Right now F2P players are getting fed up of how impossible this game is and Csers are getting bored of what this game is offering. No new events, new opponents ntn, on my server its either Rah vs Vindi sometimes Leg, every other faction is either no shows or roll over. Dont think all those low levels are new people, they are OP players who got bored and decided to kill time with a different class.
Tbh i think pwi needs to bring back coins and kill botting, they also need to find way to ensure there is a constant demand for small things like TT mats, rap and uncannys. I mean you put in so much work to make twilight temple, nirvana, lunar and FCC but ask yourself this are they really being used that often anymore other than few bh days. The only thinh Keeping FWS alive is badges, G16 and R999.
Oh yeah if anyone reads this and know anyway a F2P player like myself can make coins beside farming which is somewhat obsolete let me know. Oh yeah dont kill the Csers if i didnt live in Jamaica and lived in US and had an extra $20 guess where it would go.

Oh yeah dont tell and low geared or low level player to farm thats just dumb it takes money to make money. Everyone needs a start or as a businessman would say Capital

eirghan · July 2015

kyoske wrote: »

Dont think all those low levels are new people, they are OP players who got bored and decided to kill time with a different class.
they also need to find way to ensure there is a constant demand for small things like TT mats, rap and uncannys. I mean you put in so much work to make twilight temple, nirvana, lunar and FCC but ask yourself this are they really being used that often anymore other than few bh days. The only thinh Keeping FWS alive is badges, G16 and R999.

Basically this answers why there isn't a "constant" need for stuff like this. There are no new players who want it, or very few.

Botting is basically dead, so I'm not sure what you are saying about cutting out botting, it's already been done.

Also if we can't tell a F2P player to farm and they want money what can I say? There really isnt anything I CAN say. If you don't want to farm and you don't want to shop, have you tried merchanting? TBH it takes probably more of a learning curve to merchant than it does to farm, but I guess it can be done lazily. That's the only suggestion I have off the top of my head. Try looking for one of the many posts on how to make money. Asterelle recently made a post about how to get a cut of the free stuff from the event that's running this week.

You might be playing the wrong game though if you want a large quantity of money given to you, no offense.

I know I personally have no problem selling G16 upwards of 60m still. On the other hand purchasing goods has gotten much better. DOD buy price is down to 85m. Compare that to selling 60m but buying DODs at 170 near the height of botting, the opportunity for the farmer has gotten MUCH better as of late. Not to say it will stay that way as the market is fluid, but at the moment, it's good.

Edit: Which leads me to ask, if you were able to get your gear successfully before through farming without botting, what is different now? Sell prices? The lack of dq drops? (please dont tell me you made millions off dq without botting). Buy price of things will balance out. The lowering of prices, the one who is selling will feel it first. Soon you will find that buying is much cheaper to balance your selling of goods, if you haven't found that already.

I would definitely agree with the casino statement though

mark1c · July 2015

i was gonna say what eirghan said....

PW decided to focus on long time players as well as returning ones.

People can say there is so much stuff for new comers in this game,but lets get real....who is actually crazy enough to level 3 times to 100+,do imensive amount of primal dailies to catch up with spirit and not to mention farm to get some decent gears and refine?

Even old cash players are not crazy enough to try that with new classes,except few of course...

And thats why market in PWI is bad....there is noone to buy stuff and the people that are leveling their alts can already farm whatever they want all by themself with their mains

advoc · July 2015

To clarify, a lot of the OP's arguments seem to be mostly about not knowing how to play. Just for a few, the CoF and NW parts.

Cube is easy for me, since myself and a couple others mapped it out in 2008 and ran in basically daily back then. So making a mistake in any of the rooms, even after taking years off from doing them, just doesn't happen. The only one I could see, would be in the final room, forgetting to come back in time before 2nd cog wears out while waiting for the delay quest to finish up. Everything else is just learning to play the cube instance better.

NW where 400+ tokens is difficult? Are you insane? NW has few things difficult about it, and I dual-run a lot which means less focus in some cases per character. So I pick the right maps to get them so if one needs focus on battles, the other is in empty maps or traveling. And this weekend, I made on average 1K tokens per NW; meaning 500 per character per NW.

And you know what, my refines are **** basically. I don't even have great sharding, since I am working on gear set-up months from now, and just don't see the point. So my SB has +4 on most refines, +7 on my cape from free orbs from leveling; meaning only 16K soulforce. Which auto-places me last just about, without some knock-down fights to place me higher; which don't often happen.

My other character is going around with a +8 weapon, and sometimes +0 weapon if I weapon swap. That drops 1200 soulforce, but even still they are dropped to the bottom usually anyways as well, depending who else is there. Mostly I just focus on how both characters earn about the same contribution regardless of separate nations or not each time I fight.

See OP, you don't understand the various things to take into account. NW has things to learn, such as how to influence which nation you join, what maps are best to play, how best to pick map paths based off of battle availability and desired maps, how to earn the max possible in maps, when to leave, etc. If you knew even a fraction of that, you wouldn't act like it was hard to earn 400+. When I solo with either character, it's usually going to fall between 500 and 800 tokens per fight, since I can focus solely on that character.

And again, I don't have refines that are good, and the only one that is, is one everyone has access to for free. I used gear for the longest time in early NWs that was crafted OHT that cost 100k-200k per piece, but had desirable adds for a squishy cleric (double or triple +phys def with 3 or 4 sockets).

So again, just from the extreme lack of knowledge shown by your examples of why it is so hard, you show it's because you aren't that good at playing the things that can bring in money at a stronger rate. And if you're inherently not good at something, don't spend the effort to learn, and don't spend the time to farm the things that don't even require skill; you're always going to have a tough time in this game. And that's as it should be.

cynderangel · July 2015

I agree that it's not a friendly environment for a completely new player. Some will figure it out, but most will leave. Ignoring the new players seems like bad business, but I guess they have to focus all their attention on keeping old players from leaving. I wonder how that's going.

mark1c · July 2015

cynderangel wrote: »

I agree that it's not a friendly environment for a completely new player. Some will figure it out, but most will leave. Ignoring the new players seems like bad business, but I guess they have to focus all their attention on keeping old players from leaving. I wonder how that's going.

Its working really bad actually.On my server many people i knew went inactive/quit in this past year.

Being in second best/largest faction i can tell you we get 30-40 players online at the times during week.

During TW time it goes up to around 50 if miracles happens 60.

And thats pretty much all till first/strongest faction start fighting us...then the numbers will go -10 to -20 as soon as we start losing.

There is really not much to keep players...everyone gets bored eventually of doing same old dailies especially those whos been here for 5+ years

cynderangel · July 2015

mark1c wrote: »

cynderangel wrote: »

I agree that it's not a friendly environment for a completely new player. Some will figure it out, but most will leave. Ignoring the new players seems like bad business, but I guess they have to focus all their attention on keeping old players from leaving. I wonder how that's going.

Its working really bad actually.On my server many people i knew went inactive/quit in this past year.

Being in second best/largest faction i can tell you we get 30-40 players online at the times during week.

During TW time it goes up to around 50 if miracles happens 60.

And thats pretty much all till first/strongest faction start fighting us...then the numbers will go -10 to -20 as soon as we start losing.

There is really not much to keep players...everyone gets bored eventually of doing same old dailies especially those whos been here for 5+ years

I would expect that to be the trend. And for new players, it's going to be all about making money, but there really aren't a lot of interesting ways to do that, especially for low levels, so they'll only ever get discouraged from playing by high level, strong players telling them how easy it is to make money. Personally, I have no business sense which makes merchanting and playing the gold market too risky. I kinda despise resellers anyway, so I don't want to become one. I don't really enjoy most of the farming dungeons. I stuck with a mix of farming (which I hated) and cash shopping (mostly with birthday money over the years) until I got my g16 and sharded and refined it decently, but now gear improvements, money wise, are far out of reach. As a result, both my spending level and activity level have gone down.

Seems to me that when players (new or old) get to this point of lack of motivation or enjoyment, some players start fussing at them and just telling them if they don't like it they should just quit. And that's true enough. But how good is it for the game if all players who feel that way do leave? Do we really want to encourage that? I've seen several long time players say they wouldn't recommend this game to a friend, so I'm wondering where the future playerbase is going to come from when the old inevitably leaves. That's pwi's job though; they made it this long, so I guess they'll keep hanging in there.

I still get some enjoyment when I log in a couple times a month, so I'll play while I have that. If the game died tomorrow (unlikely), I'm not sure I'd care. I think I wouldn't.

kyoske · July 2015

eirghan wrote: »

kyoske wrote: »

Dont think all those low levels are new people, they are OP players who got bored and decided to kill time with a different class.
they also need to find way to ensure there is a constant demand for small things like TT mats, rap and uncannys. I mean you put in so much work to make twilight temple, nirvana, lunar and FCC but ask yourself this are they really being used that often anymore other than few bh days. The only thinh Keeping FWS alive is badges, G16 and R999.

Basically this answers why there isn't a "constant" need for stuff like this. There are no new players who want it, or very few.

Botting is basically dead, so I'm not sure what you are saying about cutting out botting, it's already been done.

Also if we can't tell a F2P player to farm and they want money what can I say? There really isnt anything I CAN say. If you don't want to farm and you don't want to shop, have you tried merchanting? TBH it takes probably more of a learning curve to merchant than it does to farm, but I guess it can be done lazily. That's the only suggestion I have off the top of my head. Try looking for one of the many posts on how to make money. Asterelle recently made a post about how to get a cut of the free stuff from the event that's running this week.

You might be playing the wrong game though if you want a large quantity of money given to you, no offense.

I know I personally have no problem selling G16 upwards of 60m still. On the other hand purchasing goods has gotten much better. DOD buy price is down to 85m. Compare that to selling 60m but buying DODs at 170 near the height of botting, the opportunity for the farmer has gotten MUCH better as of late. Not to say it will stay that way as the market is fluid, but at the moment, it's good.

Edit: Which leads me to ask, if you were able to get your gear successfully before through farming without botting, what is different now? Sell prices? The lack of dq drops? (please dont tell me you made millions off dq without botting). Buy price of things will balance out. The lowering of prices, the one who is selling will feel it first. Soon you will find that buying is much cheaper to balance your selling of goods, if you haven't found that already.

I would definitely agree with the casino statement though

I dont even know if this is the right way to use the quoting feature but when i mentioned botting i was saying that pwi needs to restore the value of DQ items but kill botting in the process. You also stated that things are cheaper to purchase but i ask you this. Is it easier to purchase for someone who has nothing to purchase it with. I know what im saying and you should too if you agreed with the part when i said pwi is a casino. Everything you do here is a gamble which you can gain from or lose. Also about your question about how i got my g15 and then G16 your faction member of yours can answer that. He made my g15 and i paid him back and he pointed me in the right direction, what i should point out was that this was in the time when one fsp run was giving 4m and NW was really making a profit. Sorry if i seem like im complaining but im just stating what i see. As i said im not blaming CSers if i had the option i would do it too. All im saying is that this game needs a way for player to make at least some coins without intense farming or creating over 10 alts for fsp. I mean even you must get annoyed being in squads with under geared alts.

kyoske · July 2015

advoc wrote: »

To clarify, a lot of the OP's arguments seem to be mostly about not knowing how to play. Just for a few, the CoF and NW parts.

Cube is easy for me, since myself and a couple others mapped it out in 2008 and ran in basically daily back then. So making a mistake in any of the rooms, even after taking years off from doing them, just doesn't happen. The only one I could see, would be in the final room, forgetting to come back in time before 2nd cog wears out while waiting for the delay quest to finish up. Everything else is just learning to play the cube instance better.

NW where 400+ tokens is difficult? Are you insane? NW has few things difficult about it, and I dual-run a lot which means less focus in some cases per character. So I pick the right maps to get them so if one needs focus on battles, the other is in empty maps or traveling. And this weekend, I made on average 1K tokens per NW; meaning 500 per character per NW.

And you know what, my refines are **** basically. I don't even have great sharding, since I am working on gear set-up months from now, and just don't see the point. So my SB has +4 on most refines, +7 on my cape from free orbs from leveling; meaning only 16K soulforce. Which auto-places me last just about, without some knock-down fights to place me higher; which don't often happen.

My other character is going around with a +8 weapon, and sometimes +0 weapon if I weapon swap. That drops 1200 soulforce, but even still they are dropped to the bottom usually anyways as well, depending who else is there. Mostly I just focus on how both characters earn about the same contribution regardless of separate nations or not each time I fight.

See OP, you don't understand the various things to take into account. NW has things to learn, such as how to influence which nation you join, what maps are best to play, how best to pick map paths based off of battle availability and desired maps, how to earn the max possible in maps, when to leave, etc. If you knew even a fraction of that, you wouldn't act like it was hard to earn 400+. When I solo with either character, it's usually going to fall between 500 and 800 tokens per fight, since I can focus solely on that character.

And again, I don't have refines that are good, and the only one that is, is one everyone has access to for free. I used gear for the longest time in early NWs that was crafted OHT that cost 100k-200k per piece, but had desirable adds for a squishy cleric (double or triple +phys def with 3 or 4 sockets).

So again, just from the extreme lack of knowledge shown by your examples of why it is so hard, you show it's because you aren't that good at playing the things that can bring in money at a stronger rate. And if you're inherently not good at something, don't spend the effort to learn, and don't spend the time to farm the things that don't even require skill; you're always going to have a tough time in this game. And that's as it should be.

I am not ashamed to admit i dont know how to do stuff but i think i have enough knowledge to know that practice makes perfect in the case of farming cube and i know when it comes to TT and Lunar farming its good to check to market to see demand, but what im curious about though is what you mentioned about nation war, if you will, can you please share some of ur knowledge.

reaperarm1 · July 2015

I don't know what it's like on other servers but on harshlands my TT shop is lucky to sell a few mats a week. I gave up on selling g16 crafting service cause it just does'nt sell anymore. My pstone shop barely makes any coin either anymore. I honestly would not still be playing if it were'nt for the fact I have an army of alts to do bh and fsp on, it's the only thing keeping me supplied with coins.

Items just don't sell and the problem is that the people that have the coins to blow don't need what people are selling and the few that do want to buy don't have the coins to do so. I'm at a point now where i'm in a rut, i'm g16 with +6 and 7 refines all done with mirages and aids so far, no orbs. I'm at the point where i need orbs now but at the rate of being able to afford one 10 star orb a month i'll be lucky to +10 all of my gear in 27 months give or take a few. The sad part is after 2 years to +10 it all i'll still be a one shot to r9rr... The oppurtunity to make massive amounts of coin is'nt there like it used to be. Atleast i'm not seeing it.

kyoske · July 2015

reaperarm1 wrote: »

I don't know what it's like on other servers but on harshlands my TT shop is lucky to sell a few mats a week. I gave up on selling g16 crafting service cause it just does'nt sell anymore. My pstone shop barely makes any coin either anymore. I honestly would not still be playing if it were'nt for the fact I have an army of alts to do bh and fsp on, it's the only thing keeping me supplied with coins.

Items just don't sell and the problem is that the people that have the coins to blow don't need what people are selling and the few that do want to buy don't have the coins to do so. I'm at a point now where i'm in a rut, i'm g16 with +6 and 7 refines all done with mirages and aids so far, no orbs. I'm at the point where i need orbs now but at the rate of being able to afford one 10 star orb a month i'll be lucky to +10 all of my gear in 27 months give or take a few. The sad part is after 2 years to +10 it all i'll still be a one shot to r9rr... The oppurtunity to make massive amounts of coin is'nt there like it used to be. Atleast i'm not seeing it.

This person gets it and the sad part is very soon the demand for the few mats you sell every week will also drop because unless pwi release a new class every toon will have their g15, g16 or r999. Thats the sad reality of the game and anyone who refuses to see it is either a hypocrite or have the heads shove up their butt. Very soon Csers will be the only people running around.

reaperarm1 · July 2015

This person gets it and the sad part is very soon the demand for the few mats you sell every week will also drop because unless pwi release a new class every toon will have their g15, g16 or r999. Thats the sad reality of the game and anyone who refuses to see it is either a hypocrite or have the heads shove up their butt. Very soon Csers will be the only people running around.

[/quote]

There is really nothing that can be done about it. The only thing that would bring the market back to life is a wave of genuinely new players to the game that need mats,gear,pstones etc. You need buyers or else farmers have nobody to sell to, csers don't need us anymore they have what they need and anything they do want they can typically get from the boutique. Alot of csers don't even cs anymore since they have no need anyways. Many are sitting on massive amounts of wealth accumulated because they have nothing to spend it on anyways. There's where 90% of the coins in the ecnonomy are in fact. Being sat on by a small portion of the ingame population. The rest of us scrape by and what coins we do get usually end up adding to the pile of the super wealthy when we buy a little bit of gold.

I would also like to address people that say "well dq,inflation,bots,high gold prices QQ etc. I call complete and utter BS. What does it matter if gold is 5 mil or 3 mil? It matters not to me cause i don't make enough coins to waste it on gold no matter if the price is 3 or 5 mil. Item prices. Pfft gimme a break. I have'nt seen any major drops in item prices. The economy is TOP HEAVY. Way to much coin held by a select few at the top and hardly any new coin generation at the bottom. You got bh and joj introducing coins that's about it. Oh and Perfect tokens of Best luck. That's it. What little bit of coin is generated at the bottom by us "scrubs"(as many like to call us) are sucked right up to the top to add to their piles of wealth.

cynderangel · July 2015

reaperarm1 wrote: »

What does it matter if gold is 5 mil or 3 mil?

Maybe a bit off topic, but the game has a built in gold price cap of 4 mil. Unless I'm mistaken.

reaperarm1 · July 2015

cynderangel wrote: »

reaperarm1 wrote: »

What does it matter if gold is 5 mil or 3 mil?

Maybe a bit off topic, but the game has a built in gold price cap of 4 mil. Unless I'm mistaken.

When players want to sell it higher than the cap they simply circumvent it by selling directly to buyers without using the auction house.

kyoske · July 2015

reaperarm1 wrote: »

cynderangel wrote: »

reaperarm1 wrote: »

What does it matter if gold is 5 mil or 3 mil?

Maybe a bit off topic, but the game has a built in gold price cap of 4 mil. Unless I'm mistaken.

When players want to sell it higher than the cap they simply circumvent it by selling directly to buyers without using the auction house.

Yea they sell it over wc and yup its more expensive but tbh in those time i had coins. One fsp run could have near given me one gold back then, these days one fsp run is ntn and as others say its about demand. I see Csers running around on my server and my jaw drops, because while i do kick **** sometimes the very assed i kick charge gold and im getting beaten. F2P players might as well give up at this stage. If you didnt have millions/Billions of Coins from b4 you aint getting it now

cynderangel · July 2015

reaperarm1 wrote: »

cynderangel wrote: »

reaperarm1 wrote: »

What does it matter if gold is 5 mil or 3 mil?

Maybe a bit off topic, but the game has a built in gold price cap of 4 mil. Unless I'm mistaken.

When players want to sell it higher than the cap they simply circumvent it by selling directly to buyers without using the auction house.

Ah. I guess that makes sense. Buy up the gold going for cheap in the AH and sell for whatever you want. I've never seen it happen, but I don't doubt that it could. This is why I despise resellers

eirghan · July 2015

reaperarm1 wrote: »

Item prices. Pfft gimme a break. I have'nt seen any major drops in item prices. The economy is TOP HEAVY. Way to much coin held by a select few at the top and hardly any new coin generation at the bottom. You got bh and joj introducing coins that's about it. Oh and Perfect tokens of Best luck. That's it. What little bit of coin is generated at the bottom by us "scrubs"(as many like to call us) are sucked right up to the top to add to their piles of wealth.

Not that i dont agree with your general statement, but this part i have to disagree with. I gave an example of item prices dropping in my first response. Basically due to extreme pack promotion on pwes part prices of any item from packs is way down. A few examples on my server are the DODs mentioned above, another would be garnet gems selling at 30-35m (about a month prior were selling steady at 60m), and tokens are 10k each (down from 23k). I know this isnt only Sanctuary either, other servers are bringing up coin inflation due to people NPCing tokens for coins because the price has dropped so low. But wait, dont QQ yet. Werent we all livid at the inability to obtain subs for a reasonable price, and catshops selling subs for 80k each? Oh yeah, subs are cheap like borchst now.

What about plat charms, another pack item? Previously gaurdian charms were as high as 12m ea during botting. Now they are lucky to sell for 4m.

Tokens make pages, books, apothecary, hypers, all kinds of good stuff you could make money off of (and yes, sage beast kings still sells for 30m or more despite its ingredients being less than half price!) and all things you would have spent money on before purchasing if you are a f2p. These are all low.

The things that havent decreased that much in price? Farmable things. Cube necks have decreased a bit due to stamps in packs but are still worth 80‰ of what they were (vs 50% value for other items) tt matts are still hovering around the same, gold mats that have been farmed are a few mill below chip price. EODs have raised back up to 6m (from 4m after last two times, and down from 8m during height of botting, again an 80ish‰ decrease but not bad)

Whether you see it or not its 100% verifiable that prices are dropping on all items an f2p player would be spending valuable coin on... And in favour of the farmer, since the items they supply to the server have remained more steady than cash items.

kyoske wrote: »

You also stated that things are cheaper to purchase but i ask you this. Is it easier to purchase for someone who has nothing to purchase it with. I know what im saying and you should too if you agreed with the part when i said pwi is a casino. Everything you do here is a gamble which you can gain from or lose.

I agree a with the gamble point, but i also agree with others that have said it takes practice. Is this kyokede? Its hard to teach someone cube but i can try to offer a few pointers and point you to a few walk throughs that are worth your time if its something youre interested in it. Things like that DO take a ton of practice and while still a gamble your success rate goes waaaay up after that practice. For me it took about 20 fails to get my first cog even xD i really sucked at it. Now i lose maybe 1 cog a week out of twenty or more.. Yes the possibility is always there that i fail, and it sucks, but my profit is enough that i can cover a few fails and yours will be too in time.

kyoske · July 2015

Whether you see it or not its 100% verifiable that prices are dropping on all items an f2p player would be spending valuable coin on... And in favour of the farmer, since the items they supply to the server have remained more steady than cash items. [/quote]

You know eirghan what really upset me now is this no one expects to get end game armor easy, if your aim is r999 refined and properly sharded plus decent ornaments then prepare to work. Also about the whole farming thing it all leads back to the fact that no one is buying what is farmed, because the demand is not there anymore. You may deny it but the its the truth very soon all these alts will have the armor they need to run fsp, assuming most alts are for fsp, then the demand will sink even more. That's why i believe that pwi needs to put back value in the simple things like grinding mobs, quest dont even give good coin rewards. It wasnt the dq items that killed the game as i stated before some players were just greedy, they wanted more than they needed and PWI made the dumb mistake of giving them the botting feature which allowed those greedy players to go to bed while still making coins.

mosz · July 2015

kyoske wrote: »

It wasnt the dq items that killed the game as i stated before some players were just greedy, they wanted more than they needed and PWI made the dumb mistake of giving them the botting feature which allowed those greedy players to go to bed while still making coins.

arghhhhhhhh no. CN/we got the in game bot not for the greedy players, it was to combat the greedy players, botting was happening badyle and was going to continue - china couldn't stop it effectively and it was unfair for legit players that didnt bot

the real greedy players had already botted their r9 and hundreds of thousands of event gold

eirghan · July 2015

kyoske wrote: »

You know eirghan what really upset me now is this no one expects to get end game armor easy, if your aim is r999 refined and properly sharded plus decent ornaments then prepare to work. Also about the whole farming thing it all leads back to the fact that no one is buying what is farmed, because the demand is not there anymore. You may deny it but the its the truth very soon all these alts will have the armor they need to run fsp, assuming most alts are for fsp, then the demand will sink even more. That's why i believe that pwi needs to put back value in the simple things like grinding mobs, quest dont even give good coin rewards. It wasnt the dq items that killed the game as i stated before some players were just greedy, they wanted more than they needed and PWI made the dumb mistake of giving them the botting feature which allowed those greedy players to go to bed while still making coins.

I guess what I have to say mostly depends on whether this is a post for you to succeed or a post to talk about the state of the game. If you want to work on gear or cards or whatever and progress, I can try to offer suggestions or techniques. The problem you are talking about i think is a lack of income from regular mob grinding (DQ). Which imo is much more boring and takes more effort than actual instance farming, but okay, if you want to do that to earn money, why not farm herbs/get apothecary/sell apoth? Same amount of effort required, same amount of stimulation, and same amount of profit (if not more). If you don't want to farm, merchant, or cash shop then there really is very little to be done.

If you're not talking about your personal situation, and talking about the state of the game and the general "there are too many rich people in game", "there isn't enough opportunity for f2p players" I don't know what to say. I agree? But I can't really help it. I don't really have a solution for that, and I'm sure neither does PWI because they want to make money too to keep the game going. This game has always been and always will be geared towards the cash shopper because in the end that means profit for PWE as a business. Depressing, but it's the way this game has gone. And unfortunately, and again i hate to say it, but with such a long grind to end game (and it gets even longer as f2p) and the lack of optimism for making coin as it's available to f2p players in this game, this might not be the game for you

thesquee1 · July 2015

I was going to read the first post but saw it was a giant wall with no formatting and my eyes were like NOPE NOPE NOPE!

From what I gather this is just a bunch of complaining because someone couldn't figure out how to make some spare cash. I'm not one to reveal my secrets, but I made enough coin through in game actions to buy my r9 and got a few pieces to +10 as is, got myself a full t3 sin almost full +7, and all without buying anything with the exception of my r9 ring. Now, the r9 ring costs as much as the belt, so there's proof I could have, I was just feeling lazy and it was a great sale.

escapistartist · July 2015

I am a F2P player and yes, I make enough coins to buy the items I think I need. Or save them up for future, better things once I reach 100 on my new main. I'm among those crazy people who decided to switch classes once the new ones came out.

The thing is, if you go the farming/merchanting way, the game is slow. It takes a long while to achieve your goals, but shouldn't that be the point? Having things to work for in a long span of time? People keep complaining there is nothing to do with all the free time in the game, but there is *always* something to do if you want to improve your character!
It really only gets sad when you have everything, with nothing else to obtain or look forward to, no more journeys.

Sigh. It is only easy either when you play subscription based games where you naturally unlock everything at once or close to at once, or, single player games. Where the road to the end is very feasible.
While PWI is an MMO, and like most, it's either your wallet or your time.

Also, friends are important. If you play alone in a game like this, you are bound to have a tenfold harder time, unless you really enjoy that and are a solo-player by nature.

All my two cents.

kyoske · July 2015

My friends are just as fed up as me, my pal dwells on the idea of getting on scroll of tome and how it would help if he sold it, but he is also afraid to gamble on packs with the little he has. To be honest i try not to depend on faction mates/friends too much. I was shocked when Xan helped me out nd i kept up my end of the deal but those were different times. Maybe i should find a different game, anyway im not one to turn away from a learning opportunity. Eirghan pm me when you're ready.

eirghan · July 2015

kyoske wrote: »

Maybe i should find a different game, anyway im not one to turn away from a learning opportunity. Eirghan pm me when you're ready.

Sure hun. I'm at work until 5pm server. If you're on in the evening we can chat.

If not PM me in forums and i'll try to help.

One thing to never forget is PWI is very social. We depend on our friends, especially when gearing up and levelling up because we can't do it alone. Never be afraid to depend on your friends. They got help to get where they are, too.

jabq · July 2015

To all the people having a hard time merchanting and selling your wares, come to sanctuary

.

I have had no trouble, beside the gold cap being hit and not being able to buy gold for a few decades (game time). Beside that, merchanting is always 4months~1/2 year game depending on your goal.

If you are aiming for r999 +12, josd, full cards levelled, that is about 20~35 billion coins. Assume 24 billion cost, that is roughly 1 billion coin made per month over a two year period.

To OP, how long has it been since you started playing pwi? got interested in pursuing the merchanting side, endgame gear? When you decide to pursue end game gear, that is when your trouble starts in pwi and it is never complete until you reach your satiation point.

I know the going is tough, but until you crack the money making scheme, pwi will be hard for you. You have to find out with your time constraints, playing interest, gear constraints, friends/faction what kind of farming/merchanting you can do that allows you to wake up the next day all excited to play pwi. If making coins becomes a chore in pwi, as other people have suggested, if living in a well of to do country, it is a better use of your time to work and use that money for pwi, than spend that time in pwi farming/merchanting things. Either ways, it requires dedication to do. Just my thought so far on it. I have cash shopper friends who have awesome gear now, and they thought it was not possible for them to get. I have f2p friends who never dreamt of r999+10 when it was released but now rock it. What ever you choose to do, farming, merchanting, cash shopping, requires dedication in my opinion.

jsxshadow · July 2015

kyoske wrote: »

You know when they announced the 9 million reward i was happy, because for me it was a way out, sure the price of things would raised but it was still coins that i could save for future use. Now i see that PWI and some players are concerned with the state of the economy and i agree that things seem cheaper now than before but Im asking this question and pointing to the F2P players like myself. Do you have the coins to purchase those cheaper items now? I asked that because i dont. Now it could be that im playing the game wrong or that im lazy or it could be that the decisions made my pwi have finally brought this game to a state where only cash shoppers can survive.
Lets take a look at our farmers/merchants, the current state of the economy have forced most of them to sell their items cheap to the point where they arent making much profit, i mean G15 weapons are like 18m-25m and G16 which should be alternative end gear can be bought for 40m and tbh no one wants to sell that cheap but we need the coins. NW aint making much profit unless you're one of those scoring like 400+ tokens and lets face it with the Subs removal from bhs and the price raise the TT market is dead most times, Thank God for the few times we get 2x. COF is also an option but one mistake can make all the money you put in to make it to an advance room go down the drain. Right now i would describe PWI farming/merching system as one big Casino.
A lot of people said that the amount of coins in the game was the problem but that isnt true, the real issue were some of the players (greed) and the fact that pwi introduced a mechanism that allowed these greedy players to kill mobs while being asleep and of course they thought they were smart with the auto-pot stone but lets be honest even my g16 bm could kill a couple mobs without the auto-pot and i wouldnt have to worry about dying. Players who abuse the system and PWI who so foolishly tried to solve the problem the wrong way is killing this game for F2P players like myself. I guess i was dumb, you see i didnt bot or did crazy fcc to lvl a bunch of alts to fsp with. I played the game how i think it was meant to be played, sure CSer would have the edge but thats natural and understandable. The thing is even though i didnt exploit these things i was able to make 70m for my g15, 85m for my lunar robe and enough coins to finish my g16 just by doing FWS, NW, BHs and the little mobs i killed while i did BQ and Morai. What im saying is that though things were expensive back then atleast i had some coins coming in to get stuff done.
From a business POV the CSers are important because thats where the money is coming from, but i think every player in their own way can fill up PWI pockets. Im sure there must have been one instance where an F2P brought a CSer to this game, because thats from what ive learnt thats the best way to advertise any business, Tell a Friend, but thats not happening. Right now F2P players are getting fed up of how impossible this game is and Csers are getting bored of what this game is offering. No new events, new opponents ntn, on my server its either Rah vs Vindi sometimes Leg, every other faction is either no shows or roll over. Dont think all those low levels are new people, they are OP players who got bored and decided to kill time with a different class.
Tbh i think pwi needs to bring back coins and kill botting, they also need to find way to ensure there is a constant demand for small things like TT mats, rap and uncannys. I mean you put in so much work to make twilight temple, nirvana, lunar and FCC but ask yourself this are they really being used that often anymore other than few bh days. The only thinh Keeping FWS alive is badges, G16 and R999.
Oh yeah if anyone reads this and know anyway a F2P player like myself can make coins beside farming which is somewhat obsolete let me know. Oh yeah dont kill the Csers if i didnt live in Jamaica and lived in US and had an extra $20 guess where it would go.

Oh yeah dont tell and low geared or low level player to farm thats just dumb it takes money to make money. Everyone needs a start or as a businessman would say Capital

Have a good look on the links provided in my Signature and see what a decent F2P-Player can achieve.

That aside...no one is forcing the Farmers to sell their stuff at lower prices. This is just rediculous. If it is harder nowadays as a non-CSer then it is solely because of the sheer stupidity of some "farmers". They just wanna have quick money...heck they dont care if they lose so much money on it. Mostly those are players that already are quite fast at farming due to good gears and stuff and just make their living out of selling alot instead of having the stuff priced right. THOSE PEOPLE and THOSE PEOPLE ALONE are responsible for the situation we are currently in.

Some are selling Illusion Stones for under 6m now. UNDER **** 6m!!!! Why is that stupid? Well looking back at the time when Gold was still at like 400k each those Golds sold for 18m straight. There have been way less coins on the server and you could get like 45 golds out of 1 ffing Gold mat. So nowadays you barely get 2 Golds out of 1 Gold mat. Sure stuff is easier to farm as nearly anyone has the gears to do so BUT look at that massive devalueation rate. With that massive amount of Coins and ease to get coins by just selling a few golds as a CSer it should be more than easy to still buy those mats at 18m. Heck some people still do as I refuse to sell them any lower and still get them sold. WHY? Because 18m are nothing. NOTHING AT ALL.

So the essence here is: Don't blame it on the game itself. It has always been the community which has fcked up economy things for everyone.

jabq · July 2015

jsxshadow = joe the barb from eu servers? the one who used to post often in the previous version of the forums? I have to get used to all the new names now of the previous posters

reaperarm1 · July 2015

jsxshadow wrote: »

kyoske wrote: »

You know when they announced the 9 million reward i was happy, because for me it was a way out, sure the price of things would raised but it was still coins that i could save for future use. Now i see that PWI and some players are concerned with the state of the economy and i agree that things seem cheaper now than before but Im asking this question and pointing to the F2P players like myself. Do you have the coins to purchase those cheaper items now? I asked that because i dont. Now it could be that im playing the game wrong or that im lazy or it could be that the decisions made my pwi have finally brought this game to a state where only cash shoppers can survive.
Lets take a look at our farmers/merchants, the current state of the economy have forced most of them to sell their items cheap to the point where they arent making much profit, i mean G15 weapons are like 18m-25m and G16 which should be alternative end gear can be bought for 40m and tbh no one wants to sell that cheap but we need the coins. NW aint making much profit unless you're one of those scoring like 400+ tokens and lets face it with the Subs removal from bhs and the price raise the TT market is dead most times, Thank God for the few times we get 2x. COF is also an option but one mistake can make all the money you put in to make it to an advance room go down the drain. Right now i would describe PWI farming/merching system as one big Casino.
A lot of people said that the amount of coins in the game was the problem but that isnt true, the real issue were some of the players (greed) and the fact that pwi introduced a mechanism that allowed these greedy players to kill mobs while being asleep and of course they thought they were smart with the auto-pot stone but lets be honest even my g16 bm could kill a couple mobs without the auto-pot and i wouldnt have to worry about dying. Players who abuse the system and PWI who so foolishly tried to solve the problem the wrong way is killing this game for F2P players like myself. I guess i was dumb, you see i didnt bot or did crazy fcc to lvl a bunch of alts to fsp with. I played the game how i think it was meant to be played, sure CSer would have the edge but thats natural and understandable. The thing is even though i didnt exploit these things i was able to make 70m for my g15, 85m for my lunar robe and enough coins to finish my g16 just by doing FWS, NW, BHs and the little mobs i killed while i did BQ and Morai. What im saying is that though things were expensive back then atleast i had some coins coming in to get stuff done.
From a business POV the CSers are important because thats where the money is coming from, but i think every player in their own way can fill up PWI pockets. Im sure there must have been one instance where an F2P brought a CSer to this game, because thats from what ive learnt thats the best way to advertise any business, Tell a Friend, but thats not happening. Right now F2P players are getting fed up of how impossible this game is and Csers are getting bored of what this game is offering. No new events, new opponents ntn, on my server its either Rah vs Vindi sometimes Leg, every other faction is either no shows or roll over. Dont think all those low levels are new people, they are OP players who got bored and decided to kill time with a different class.
Tbh i think pwi needs to bring back coins and kill botting, they also need to find way to ensure there is a constant demand for small things like TT mats, rap and uncannys. I mean you put in so much work to make twilight temple, nirvana, lunar and FCC but ask yourself this are they really being used that often anymore other than few bh days. The only thinh Keeping FWS alive is badges, G16 and R999.
Oh yeah if anyone reads this and know anyway a F2P player like myself can make coins beside farming which is somewhat obsolete let me know. Oh yeah dont kill the Csers if i didnt live in Jamaica and lived in US and had an extra $20 guess where it would go.

Oh yeah dont tell and low geared or low level player to farm thats just dumb it takes money to make money. Everyone needs a start or as a businessman would say Capital

Have a good look on the links provided in my Signature and see what a decent F2P-Player can achieve.

That aside...no one is forcing the Farmers to sell their stuff at lower prices. This is just rediculous. If it is harder nowadays as a non-CSer then it is solely because of the sheer stupidity of some "farmers". They just wanna have quick money...heck they dont care if they lose so much money on it. Mostly those are players that already are quite fast at farming due to good gears and stuff and just make their living out of selling alot instead of having the stuff priced right. THOSE PEOPLE and THOSE PEOPLE ALONE are responsible for the situation we are currently in.

Some are selling Illusion Stones for under 6m now. UNDER **** 6m!!!! Why is that stupid? Well looking back at the time when Gold was still at like 400k each those Golds sold for 18m straight. There have been way less coins on the server and you could get like 45 golds out of 1 ffing Gold mat. So nowadays you barely get 2 Golds out of 1 Gold mat. Sure stuff is easier to farm as nearly anyone has the gears to do so BUT look at that massive devalueation rate. With that massive amount of Coins and ease to get coins by just selling a few golds as a CSer it should be more than easy to still buy those mats at 18m. Heck some people still do as I refuse to sell them any lower and still get them sold. WHY? Because 18m are nothing. NOTHING AT ALL.

So the essence here is: Don't blame it on the game itself. It has always been the community which has fcked up economy things for everyone.

A decent F2P-Player can achieve a lot if the opportunity is there. Alot of forum posters like to throw the word "farm" around alot. Well it does'nt matter what you farm if the market is stagnant. If there's nobody buying it does'nt matter how much you farm you're not making money. That's the situation i'm experiencing currently. Enormous lack of buyers. I stroll through west archo daily scouting shops and I see mostly the same stuff in the same shops, day after day....Week after week. I've stated it earlier and i'll state it again. My tt/oht/pstone shops sell squat. You can farm till your blue in the face but if nobody is buying it does you no good when you need coins.

cynderangel · July 2015

jsxshadow wrote: »

kyoske wrote: »

You know when they announced the 9 million reward i was happy, because for me it was a way out, sure the price of things would raised but it was still coins that i could save for future use. Now i see that PWI and some players are concerned with the state of the economy and i agree that things seem cheaper now than before but Im asking this question and pointing to the F2P players like myself. Do you have the coins to purchase those cheaper items now? I asked that because i dont. Now it could be that im playing the game wrong or that im lazy or it could be that the decisions made my pwi have finally brought this game to a state where only cash shoppers can survive.
Lets take a look at our farmers/merchants, the current state of the economy have forced most of them to sell their items cheap to the point where they arent making much profit, i mean G15 weapons are like 18m-25m and G16 which should be alternative end gear can be bought for 40m and tbh no one wants to sell that cheap but we need the coins. NW aint making much profit unless you're one of those scoring like 400+ tokens and lets face it with the Subs removal from bhs and the price raise the TT market is dead most times, Thank God for the few times we get 2x. COF is also an option but one mistake can make all the money you put in to make it to an advance room go down the drain. Right now i would describe PWI farming/merching system as one big Casino.
A lot of people said that the amount of coins in the game was the problem but that isnt true, the real issue were some of the players (greed) and the fact that pwi introduced a mechanism that allowed these greedy players to kill mobs while being asleep and of course they thought they were smart with the auto-pot stone but lets be honest even my g16 bm could kill a couple mobs without the auto-pot and i wouldnt have to worry about dying. Players who abuse the system and PWI who so foolishly tried to solve the problem the wrong way is killing this game for F2P players like myself. I guess i was dumb, you see i didnt bot or did crazy fcc to lvl a bunch of alts to fsp with. I played the game how i think it was meant to be played, sure CSer would have the edge but thats natural and understandable. The thing is even though i didnt exploit these things i was able to make 70m for my g15, 85m for my lunar robe and enough coins to finish my g16 just by doing FWS, NW, BHs and the little mobs i killed while i did BQ and Morai. What im saying is that though things were expensive back then atleast i had some coins coming in to get stuff done.
From a business POV the CSers are important because thats where the money is coming from, but i think every player in their own way can fill up PWI pockets. Im sure there must have been one instance where an F2P brought a CSer to this game, because thats from what ive learnt thats the best way to advertise any business, Tell a Friend, but thats not happening. Right now F2P players are getting fed up of how impossible this game is and Csers are getting bored of what this game is offering. No new events, new opponents ntn, on my server its either Rah vs Vindi sometimes Leg, every other faction is either no shows or roll over. Dont think all those low levels are new people, they are OP players who got bored and decided to kill time with a different class.
Tbh i think pwi needs to bring back coins and kill botting, they also need to find way to ensure there is a constant demand for small things like TT mats, rap and uncannys. I mean you put in so much work to make twilight temple, nirvana, lunar and FCC but ask yourself this are they really being used that often anymore other than few bh days. The only thinh Keeping FWS alive is badges, G16 and R999.
Oh yeah if anyone reads this and know anyway a F2P player like myself can make coins beside farming which is somewhat obsolete let me know. Oh yeah dont kill the Csers if i didnt live in Jamaica and lived in US and had an extra $20 guess where it would go.

Oh yeah dont tell and low geared or low level player to farm thats just dumb it takes money to make money. Everyone needs a start or as a businessman would say Capital

Have a good look on the links provided in my Signature and see what a decent F2P-Player can achieve.

That aside...no one is forcing the Farmers to sell their stuff at lower prices. This is just rediculous. If it is harder nowadays as a non-CSer then it is solely because of the sheer stupidity of some "farmers". They just wanna have quick money...heck they dont care if they lose so much money on it. Mostly those are players that already are quite fast at farming due to good gears and stuff and just make their living out of selling alot instead of having the stuff priced right. THOSE PEOPLE and THOSE PEOPLE ALONE are responsible for the situation we are currently in.

Some are selling Illusion Stones for under 6m now. UNDER **** 6m!!!! Why is that stupid? Well looking back at the time when Gold was still at like 400k each those Golds sold for 18m straight. There have been way less coins on the server and you could get like 45 golds out of 1 ffing Gold mat. So nowadays you barely get 2 Golds out of 1 Gold mat. Sure stuff is easier to farm as nearly anyone has the gears to do so BUT look at that massive devalueation rate. With that massive amount of Coins and ease to get coins by just selling a few golds as a CSer it should be more than easy to still buy those mats at 18m. Heck some people still do as I refuse to sell them any lower and still get them sold. WHY? Because 18m are nothing. NOTHING AT ALL.

So the essence here is: Don't blame it on the game itself. It has always been the community which has fcked up economy things for everyone.

Yeah! Especially when the community sells stuff for the NPC price instead of bringing prices down and thinks it's fair! I mean... teach us your ways, oh wise one.

eirghan · July 2015

reaperarm1 wrote: »

A decent F2P-Player can achieve a lot if the opportunity is there. Alot of forum posters like to throw the word "farm" around alot. Well it does'nt matter what you farm if the market is stagnant. If there's nobody buying it does'nt matter how much you farm you're not making money. That's the situation i'm experiencing currently. Enormous lack of buyers. I stroll through west archo daily scouting shops and I see mostly the same stuff in the same shops, day after day....Week after week. I've stated it earlier and i'll state it again. My tt/oht/pstone shops sell squat. You can farm till your blue in the face but if nobody is buying it does you no good when you need coins.

You keep saying "item prices haven't dropped" "farming is dead" "stuff doesnt sell" and I keep offering rebuttals but you aren't addressing those. I don't know if that is a problem just on your server, but I guess if everyone thinks farming is dead and a myth... More beneficial for those that test the water themselves

mulier · July 2015

for all the nonbelievers :

step 1 : Create psychic
step 2 : start to ????
step 3 : ?????
step 4 : now that you got your r999 start havin fun in the game

so easy .. cant really understand all the hate here

A non-cash shopper experience

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