New Expansion: Vit shardss vs: Def Shards

eirghan

b:sin Oh yes, this again.

This might have been touched on briefly in the thread for the upcoming new expansion, but I wanted to get everyone's opinions and whys and hows and math and all the good stuff b:pleased

So...

What is better taking into consideration the new and upcoming passives? Vit stones (Creation I guess, for ssake of argument) or JOSDs?

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

The increase on "base" HP will benefit shards, which reduce damage received, while shards which only give HP arent as powerful by comparison. In short JOSD will be even more powerful compared to other sharding options as even vit stones mostly give hp, not resistances.

Ps. I am only aware of the hp increase passive & charm CD increase "passive" and if there is 3rd information I provided might be flawed.

eyebegrindin

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

The increase on "base" HP will benefit shards, which reduce damage received, while shards which only give HP arent as powerful by comparison. In short JOSD will be even more powerful compared to other sharding options as even vit stones mostly give hp, not resistances.

Ps. I am only aware of the hp increase passive & charm CD increase "passive" and if there is 3rd information I provided might be flawed.

but vit grants bonus to pdef and mdef. it varries per class on the bonus given. def levels only provide a bonus res for damage received. a vit sage barb isnt taking that much damage to begin with so they would benifit more from def shards over vit stones. where as a cleric might want more vit for the boost to both defs and hp. a wiz might want a mixture as they have high mag def but horrible pdef. its really all in how you play.

XXHotXx - Morai

the HP bonus from passives willmake vit shards scale aswell so its the other way around

sharding vit will bring vit shards even closer to josd

vit barbs will be > josd barbs

and +12 vit barbs top armas will be 125k hits with 65% chance to crit for 250k and 20% chance to zerk for 500k, (for comparison a 3spark blade tempest is a 180k hit)

i already see barbs going into clusters and chaining armas like the old times

OP but i love old school stuff b:dirty

therev

Creations give vit pdef mdef rice
Josd gives def
I vote creation based on the rice

Desdi - Sanctuary

I'm no expert, but I'm fairly sure JOSD are still the best.
Still, Creation Stones aren't bad if someone wants a cheaper option.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Eh, I actually approached the matter from wrong angle. In truth the relative difference will be exactly the same after the update. This is because both effective healths(JOSD & Creation) are simply multiplied by the same number. Iirc JOSD is bout 10% better w/o buffs and double that with buffs.

eirghan

therev wrote: »

Creations give vit pdef mdef rice
Josd gives def
I vote creation based on the rice

b:shocked most well supported argument here.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm no expert, but I'm fairly sure JOSD are still the best.
Still, Creation Stones aren't bad if someone wants a cheaper option.

I'm pretty sure you're correct on this, but it's been forever since I played with the calcs.

juankael

nice... now... is there any place in the forum wheere i can find more information about this new expansion? :P

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

juankael wrote: »

nice... now... is there any place in the forum wheere i can find more information about this new expansion? :P

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1752631

therev

eirghan wrote: »

b:shocked most well supported argument here.

b:cute thanks

Mrvate - Heavens Tear

Ultimately the upcoming passives are going to be giving more of a boost to Vit stones then what they'll be giving to Def stones. But this will not necessarily make Vit stones better then Def stones in all situations.

There are already situations where where Vit stones can exceed in effectiveness to Jades. This is because Def stones effectiveness is based off of the incoming damage, and where that damage is coming from (better said how much of that dmg is coming from atk levels).

Most of the calcs comparing Jades to Def shards were done before Deities, and when full DoT sharding was considered rare. If you are considering an opponent with a large amount of Atk levels, which is becoming more and more prevalent, Vit stones become more and more viable.


And the comment on effective HP not changing since both Jades and vits will get the same 25% increase is simply incorrect.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Mrvate - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And the comment on effective HP not changing since both Jades and vits will get the same 25% increase is simply incorrect.

You are simply incorrect. I`ll prove it but I do it in a way, which is the least time consuming for me.

No buffs archer currently.

JOSD

Effective p.def: 23832 / (1-0,8521) / (1-0,02) / (1 + (123-112) / 100) = 148130

Creation Stone

Effective p.def: 27950 / (1-0,8657) / (1-0,02) / (1 + /123-64) / 100) = 133562

Relative difference:

(148130 - 133562) / 133562 * 100% = 10,9%

Meaning jades offer 10,9% more effective health.

After expansion. I assume hp passive works as other max hp buffs meaning you dont multiply them together, you sum them together. As you get 10% from gear(chest+neck) and hp passive maxed is 25% the total is 35%. So we need the hp prior to gear "buffs". I simply edit the max hp 5% addons off gear, which leaves us at 0% max hp buff. Coincidentally sage barb buff is 35% so I throw that on.

JOSD

Effective p.def: 29248 / (1-0,8521) / (1-0,02) / (1 + (123-112) / 100) = 181794

Creation Stone

Effective p.def: 34302 / (1-0,8657) / (1-0,02) / (1 + /123-64) / 100) = 163916

Relative difference:

(181794 - 163916) / 163916 * 100% = 10,9%.

What ya know, the relative difference stays the same.

pachwenko

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

What ya know, the relative difference stays the same.

Jaded archer has 23k ubuffed? Dont seem like it lol, but its annoying this whole discussion is brought up many times, I think its for people trying to justify spending that much for jades over a fine option of vit stones. For a vit built toon like barb or bm, it would be much more effective and compare alot better to jades but probably still not be quite the best.

Wish people would ask the better questions like "Doesnt having the best gear and being crummy at pvp ruin the game? Isnt it better to just be having fun without crushing your wallet? Help keep the pwi communitys wallets fat with this inspirational thread, pretty please with a cherry on top!"

And then to get a good moving discussion we can feel much better about ourselves right?! b:victory Hope you guys have some beer with me

Mrvate - Heavens Tear

My apologies, you are by in large correct if your assumption on how the hp buff will stack is true (which thinking about it, it most likely is) but i have not heard confirmation either way. However if the passive does not stack as a cumulative percentage with gear and buff a small benefit in effective hp will be given to vit and hp shards.


More directed at the discussion on vit vs jades, and a reiteration on my first post. The 10% difference in effective hp comparing vit vs jades I feel is exaggerated when talking about endgame pk. Mainly because the game is reaching a point where more ppl are sharding deity and it is the deity sharded ppl who are more dangerous.

So I would recommend people go and play with an effective hp calc. and particularly punch in numbers which represent a less then ideal scenario. Because if you're fighting someone who has minimum atk levels and you're full buffed it is unlikely you'll be dying in that situation regardless of your shards. Assume you're fighting someone with higher atk lvl, or that you're not full buffed. And when you do that you'll see that the gap between vit and Jades lessens.


Main reason I point this out is that there are enough near endgame players who do not see vit as an endgame alternative. Those players then stick with non endgame shards (incomparable) because they can not afford JoSD. Coming from personal experience as a character with over 200 atk level there are enough vit sharded characters that give me troubles in pk that I think ppl really should reconsider it as an endgame option.

Edit:

pachwenko wrote: »

Jaded archer has 23k ubuffed? Dont seem like it lol,

Very possible with full endgame +12 gear.

Eoria - Harshlands

Sharding deity is pretty dumb unless you're a sin tho 'cause you pretty much end up being target numero uno since you're just that much squisher than everyone else and deal a ton of damage.

coffeetator

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Sharding deity is pretty dumb unless you're a sin tho 'cause you pretty much end up being target numero uno since you're just that much squisher than everyone else and deal a ton of damage.

Now a days, many people has with them def lvl wepons and equipment swap them out when they need the extra defense to escape imminent death. DD classes who shards Diety stones can pretty much negate their targets' def lvls from their wep when no one is able to remove the targets' weapon with a skill.

I am not diety sharded, but I can tell you there are so many times that a person had escaped death by me, by using IG/AD and swap to def lvl weapons when they had a slither of hp left. Any extra damage you can squeeze out of would have killed them.

RankNine - Momaganon

coffeetator wrote: »

Now a days, many people has with them def lvl wepons and equipment swap them out when they need the extra defense to escape imminent death. DD classes who shards Diety stones can pretty much negate their targets' def lvls from their wep when no one is able to remove the targets' weapon with a skill.

I am not diety sharded, but I can tell you there are so many times that a person had escaped death by me, by using IG/AD and swap to def lvl weapons when they had a slither of hp left. Any extra damage you can squeeze out of would have killed them.

Eoria was talking about endgame group pvp, not 1vs1 :P

Roar_King - Sanctuary

JOSD are better becuase of spirit. That's all.

CapnK - Sanctuary

Er not really, spirit is compared to your opponent's spirit. Assuming equal cards/boundary levels, it cancels out and does nothing. The only trick to spirit is keeping up with the Joneses.

Looking at Asterelle's socket calculator with my mystic, JoSD are better when buffed, Creation when unbuffed (purged). I don't expect that to change with the extra hp from the upcoming expansion.

Boomz - Harshlands

when you as a magic class can't kill an endgame heavy armor class you might have to stop and consider dieties being an option, its honestly not that bad. If I ever really hit the grindstone and farm out full +12 and G13(is that right?) shards, then i'd probably go +28 def lv and +20 attack lv. With the new expansion i'd then go +32 spirits and 2 attack lv for every 1 def lv and a bit of hp and maximum magic penetration.

$picylovah - Sanctuary

The expansion wont affect JOSD vs Vit Shards

Ur effective HP will increase with the same amount for both (u get more hp from the vitstone, but u have more hp from the passive, ur % hp increase will remain the same....and well def lvl has the same % effect regardless of the hp u have).

The pdef/mdef u get from Vit shards is completelely irrelevant on endgame gear. especially considering ur a heavy armor class.

JOSD is a lot more effective but ''more expensive'', tho in reality I would argue that, depending on how much u PvP, JOSD is a lot cheaper than Vit Stones due to the explosive charm cost that comes with Vit stones, it'll catch up to JOSDs pretty rapidly in price and from that point on ull have spent more money due to the vit stones, consider JOSD an investment that'll pay off in the long run ^^


On the topic of deity's I really like them, if u play a ranged class properly ull be able to avoid pretty much all incoming damage, or at least to a threatening amount, and if u dont take damage ur hp and def lvl wont do anything for you, attack level will, this ofcourse doesnt apply to 1v1 situations, but thats just a joke anyway...that said it wud require exceptional positioning which well...since everyone on PWI plays at a near professional level and is super skilled and ofcourse has near perfect awareness of their surroundings when it comes to large scale PvP is a great plan!!!!1one

Sirkura - Raging Tide

i don't remember all the machanics involved but JoSD are currently the best shard in our version, tho depending on the HP increase buff and other passives, its possible we may get other shards that CN uses as a balancing check at a later point (there are actually +10 str, +20 vit, +20 magic, and +3 def lvl shards in the game currently iirc, just unused) creation stone is +12 vit wich easily adds more defense then a single DoD tho you would need a +20 vit shard to out do a JoSD.

I think the HP buff passives and such are going to cause a huge balance problem if it isn't adjusted early enough, the CN gears have higher base stats then ours, with better shards, thus more HP is a balancing check for longer survival. in our version we don't have str/mag shards for damage or as high of stats so our output is lower, kinda predicting unstoppable 80k HP barbs in the near future >.>

ginz0rz

@the comment that Vit = spending more on charms therefore go JOSD instead... I disagree~

Full vit stone demon seeker... stats hybrid (for the moment, later will go full str). With decent cards (none are maxed out) and gears I have nearly 30k HP unbuffed and I PVP regularly, often getting charm r@ped in me vs. 10 or more fights, and I also regularly cata in TW though too lazy to switch to def gears.

I can't remember the last time I bought an HP charm, it's been well over a year... gogogo silver event charms, lol. Demon sage cards are a regular giveaway anymore.

Side note, I remember getting laughed at for the build I went for, but who's laughing now! xD

Noxioua - Lost City

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm no expert, but I'm fairly sure JOSD are still the best.
Still, Creation Stones aren't bad if someone wants a cheaper option.

Oh Desdi you've gone and made me spit my coffee laughing.

We all know players will jew the absolute **** out of those stones hahahaha cheaper option my god that's hilarious.

ginz0rz wrote: »

@the comment that Vit = spending more on charms therefore go JOSD instead... I disagree~

Full vit stone demon seeker... stats hybrid (for the moment, later will go full str). With decent cards (none are maxed out) and gears I have nearly 30k HP unbuffed and I PVP regularly, often getting charm r@ped in me vs. 10 or more fights, and I also regularly cata in TW though too lazy to switch to def gears.

I can't remember the last time I bought an HP charm, it's been well over a year... gogogo silver event charms, lol. Demon sage cards are a regular giveaway anymore.

Side note, I remember getting laughed at for the build I went for, but who's laughing now! xD

You've got it lucky. As a seeker your charm wouldn't be ticking as much as, say, an LA/AA with that kind of HP and those numbers of foes. Your Adrennal is basically a free set of Jades. You take less damage period.

I wouldn't say the event gold cards were a regular now. I mean when was the last time they put out a code for them before this log in event? I mean there's going to be lots of event gold seeing as it was 150 gold and every toon on your account got them if you logged them all, but still. It'll probably fade away for ages again after this.

Reliea - Sanctuary

Noxioua - Lost City wrote: »

Oh Desdi you've gone and made me spit my coffee laughing.

We all know players will jew the absolute **** out of those stones hahahaha cheaper option my god that's hilarious.

I think it's more along the lines of being cheaper because you can make'em yourself; can't make JoSD at a base forge, but making shinny rainbow vit stones sounds very appealing Buying from other players of course they're gunna try to make as big a profit as possible, no blame there.

Uch, all these math-type numbers make my brain go all fuzzy. Either way if what I'm gleaning is mildly correct, JoSD could have a small advantage over Vit, but the like what... 10ish% difference, at least to me, isn't worth the cost of'em. My ideal plan was to reshard with vit type stones to begin with, and I'm not talked out of it yet XD.

Noxioua - Lost City

Reliea - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think it's more along the lines of being cheaper because you can make'em yourself; can't make JoSD at a base forge, but making shinny rainbow vit stones sounds very appealing Buying from other players of course they're gunna try to make as big a profit as possible, no blame there.

Uch, all these math-type numbers make my brain go all fuzzy. Either way if what I'm gleaning is mildly correct, JoSD could have a small advantage over Vit, but the like what... 10ish% difference, at least to me, isn't worth the cost of'em. My ideal plan was to reshard with vit type stones to begin with, and I'm not talked out of it yet XD.

You a veno? You wanna live long enough to purge? Want your pets to live long enough to aid you? JOSDs.





(and good stat rerolling >.>)

Reliea - Sanctuary

Noxioua - Lost City wrote: »

You a veno? You wanna live long enough to purge? Want your pets to live long enough to aid you? JOSDs.

<.< I have pretty unimpressive shards as it is and I purge fine. Anything better than I have now obviously will help me live longer, and if I had oodles of cash on hand I might go for JoSD, but I'm trying to be effective and fiscally practical XD IG is my real enemy b:laugh

Desdi - Sanctuary

Reliea - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think it's more along the lines of being cheaper because you can make'em yourself; can't make JoSD at a base forge, but making shinny rainbow vit stones sounds very appealing Buying from other players of course they're gunna try to make as big a profit as possible, no blame there.

Uch, all these math-type numbers make my brain go all fuzzy. Either way if what I'm gleaning is mildly correct, JoSD could have a small advantage over Vit, but the like what... 10ish% difference, at least to me, isn't worth the cost of'em. My ideal plan was to reshard with vit type stones to begin with, and I'm not talked out of it yet XD.

Yes, that's what I meant. Those that have alts & patience can farm them (old TW factions that disbanded are now used as base farming places, on Sanctuary at least). Though I admit back then when I farmed the stones with my friend we had the bot problem. All prices had skyrocketed so the price gap might be smaller now (C.Stone price can't change since it's from base), but I haven't paid attention to the DoD/JOSD prices of the last couple of months.

XXHotXx - Morai

imo josd lost a lot of relevance in current meta

you have to consider the components of the damage you receive:

the damage you receive is split in 3 components:

base damage | atk levels | spirit

resistances | def levels | spirit

more or less:

base damage is 40% damage component |

when 100 atk levels over def levels 40% damage component | (100% amp)

when 1000 spirit over target spirit 20% damage component | (50% amp)

Increasing the def levels, goes to modify that 40% "damage you receive component" reducing it for almost its entirety


to make an example lets consider a character with 50k base damage, 120 atk levels, 1000 spirit, attacking someone with 30k resistance, 100 def levels and 800 spirit


50000 damage is reduced by 75% of pvp penalty to 12500

30000 resistance value is equal to 88% damage reduction reducing it to 1500

20 atk lvls over def levels amp damage to 1800

200 spirit over target spirit-> 1944 thats the final damage you get


now lets consider the same target that isnt full josd (has 48 defense levels less)


50000 damage reduced to 12500 -> resistances 1500

68 atk lvls over def levels amp damage to 2520

200 spirit over -> 2701 thats the final damage you get


the non-josd target takes 29% more damage respect the josd one

The josd benefit became a lot less relevant since when we got spirit and the super high resistance values

You can also have the josd effect sharding to reach 45k resistance values which isnt too much of a problem thanks to resistance passives that double shards benefit (92% damage redux = 30% less damage respect 30k value)

And if you can actually make your vit stones\build to scale and get 30% more hps respect a josd yourself (and i believe that can happen for HAs and "almost for" LAs), i believe sharding vit became on pair with sharding josd