Veno have been ninja nerfed?

PhantomEin - Lost City

So today I tested Bramble Hood, Bramble Guard, and Blazing Barrier and non of them reflects any damage. I heard the 2 Brambles got nerfed for some time already but when did Blazing Barrier got nerfed? It doesn't even mention that in the description like the other 2 Brambles.

No wonder Venos are so easy to kill unless if u got super OP gear, and hardly can find any Venos for Flowsilver. Venos is like the worse pvp class right now. b:surrender

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war34child

Generally there are less aa classes around than la/ha, because it takes more time to level those to 100. We even can't complain on our server, we have a nice mixture, the gap between aa and la/ha is way higher on the newer ones.

As someone already stated, reflection (barb demon roar included) never worked in open world map on our pw version.

Venos and archers were the most easy to play OP-PVP classes for many years. They were used to kill others instantly and never wanted a challenge. They were looking for humiliation (I'd call it rl compensation). That's why they QQ most now or quitted, because other classes got a boosts to compete.

In mass pvp ha/la classes still kill venos and (r9/r/rr) archers first due to their ability to purge (next on list are clerics).

But venos are still needed to kill barbs (purge/forcing human form/amplify dmg). And can compete with other classes. They just can't solo-kill everyone within a second anymore, they have to play in a team like everyone else (once they just jumped around without a plan or listening to leader and felt "pro").

Reliea - Sanctuary

sontzu wrote: »

Bramble works in TW/NW, and aps toons still bramble themselves to death on venos there now and again...

Sometimes...I just stand there and let them die on me, giggling.

Anyhuu, I don't know about Lost, but there's plenty of venos on Sanct, one could almost say toooo many >.>

Also, pretty much everyone is easy to kill if you have super OP gear. These days either you're easy to kill, or you're super difficult to kill, that's not really a reflection of the class, but their gear quality.

I don't really think there's a "worst" class for pvp, it's all about what gear you have and how well you play.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Different opinion about a few things in this thread, but Ill keep most of them too myself, would prefer not to generate an headache for myself, I have better things to do than getting those at the moment.

I will say this though, melees have to get up close, and they're far more likely to get into a position where they are taking more damage than any ranged class. - Veno's are essentially a ranged class. - I am not saying its easy on ranged classes, but I am saying that it is essentially easier, albeit not much easier, as they too get one shotted often; however, being able to sneak in an attack or two from a distance is insanely nice in my book, and far more useful, than dying as your trying to land an hit/attack on your target.

Classes who pretty much use only melee as their primary attack method in pvp are bringing a knife to a gun fight, it just isn't all that pretty on them. xD Though aye there is a few methods for each of them to get near, barbs, sins, and duskblades have quite the ability to do so, bm's while they have it, they also have it the hardest of the pure melees closing the distance, albeit they CAN still do it, which they have always been able too.

---

That aside..

On my server i see far more casters (AA classes)/LA than I do of HA classes... especially in NW, TW Still the same thing really, but to be fair there is a LOT more classes that use AA/LA as their primary armor.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

Old news, if you search the archives you'll find plenty of threads about bramble not working in open world PK... which is the only place it doesn't work. It works in duels and PK enabled instances (including NW and TW, as others have stated.) This has been the way it works since almost the beginning (some claim it worked in open world PK in beta.)

Asterelle - Sanctuary

Venos have some important things to look forward to.

Demon Ironwood is still the strongest debuff in the game. It can easily be like +1500% damage and it just keeps getting stronger as pdef values keep increasing. It's far stronger than purge even.

If you didn't get demon and chose Sage at least you have obscenely good chi gain with the new fox form.

Bewitch is also one of the strongest CC. There is nothing else in the game that can knock a barb out of tiger form or knock nightshade out of their reaper forms. The anti reaper form ability in particular make veno one of the best answers to the new classes.

Veno also has access to AOE CC with Parasitic Nova. I think it's the only aoe seal in the game which means it's still good now that everyone has such easy access to anti stun.

Definitely not the 'worst pvp class'.

Bellicious - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Veno also has access to AOE CC with Parasitic Nova. I think it's the only aoe seal in the game which means it's still good now that everyone has such easy access to anti stun.

*cough* gale force

Not 100% but chance of immobilize + seal

Eoria - Harshlands

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Veno also has access to AOE CC with Parasitic Nova. I think it's the only aoe seal in the game which means it's still good now that everyone has such easy access to anti stun.

Wizzie's Sage Force of Will and mystic's Gale Force and Thicket.

But yes, venos have no right to complain atm.

Asterelle - Sanctuary

Ahh right. I guess whisper shot is also technically an AOE but realistically it's single target. Nova is at least the premiere aoe seal due to it's large size, high damage, and long effect. Thicket is pretty similar but feels a lot weaker in area and damage.

Marengo - Lost City

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

But yes, venos have no right to complain atm.

Pretty sure we have right to complain. Try to kill someone endgame with sage veno. Yes, she has tones of chi, but the only vulnerable classes are archers and sins (though sins have so many unticontrol skills, that veno has no right to make mistake, else b:bye). It's frustrating when you hit a player 2-3k purged and debuffed with nova, and all decent full magic aa have close to 20k hp unbuffed. Demon have slight advantage with that 20% ironwood proc (those who were smart and didn't learn primal ironwood), but you will hardly 1shot endgame seeker (ty, def lvl), it can be easily counted with def charm. And it's kinda the only physical attack veno has. Pet dies 1shot. DDing in foxform gives an opponent a lot of time to use charm again while you are turing into human and start casting. You have to rely on myriads which require a lot of chi if you spam them, use extreme poison and sacrifice your genie defensive readiness, pray for crits, better several in a row. For some players ironwood-antinomy is the only option to kill.
Veno is extremely useful in mass pvp, but its 1v1 ability is questionable. Maybe not that easy to kill a veno, but she can have hard time killing as well. Not talking about full vit veno. Met an equally geared enemy? Better run. Will be charm waste at best or squad signet on your tail at worst.

To all who will try to argue saying they 1shot ppl with venomous scarab: there is no problem to fight and kill with veno on lower gear. But endgame josd players just.take.few.damage.

horrigue

Can I just say that on equal gear... no class can oneshot another without doing a combo of some sort...
Even a barb with arma has to cover the distance and get up close to you to use it.
It's the ones that outgear you, or have a higher refined weapon than you have gear / passive skills that will oneshot you.

You're 'not meant' to be able to oneshot somebody, but rather have a fight before you kill someone.
That gap can be closed however with skill difference, preparation etc... (for instance... an equal gear barb can 1shot a caster with a strong tangling mire... but probably not as easily without it).

Marengo - Lost City

horrigue wrote: »

Even a barb with arma has to cover the distance and get up close to you to use it.

Barb can oneshot with the distant skill that deals more damage in the air. Can 1shot even fully endgame player. Arma is outdated b:laugh

You're 'not meant' to be able to oneshot somebody, but rather have a fight before you kill someone.

Seekers are supposed to with debuff passing combo and others aren't, ok.
I'm not saying veno is a dead meat and gets 1shot by everyone, but some classes have way better means to kill, some haven't. Veno is among those who haven't, despite all her debuffs.

Asterelle - Sanctuary

Veno is not at the top but definitely no where near the bottom. It's somewhere in the middle.

Someone should try making a definitive objective ranking. It's probably not that hard to make scores on qualities like survival / damage / control / support / utility for 1v1 / Mass / PvE and see who has the highest total. I have a pretty good idea about what the bottom would look like.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Veno is not at the top but definitely no where near the bottom. It's somewhere in the middle.

Someone should try making a definitive objective ranking. It's probably not that hard to make scores on qualities like survival / damage / control / support / utility for 1v1 / Mass / PvE and see who has the highest total. I have a pretty good idea about what the bottom would look like.

That would be interesting to see.

Maybe it would be better to post a thread asking people who have played multiple classes, (EDIT: I know I have played a multiple classes, and as have quite a few other players, but still there are a few classes that I admit i am a little foggy with especially giving some of that criteria.) and get an overall average. (Like base each of those on a scale of 1-10... 1 being the lowest of course)

jeimini

Insert topic: Fix the gersh dern pet system

Because when your pet gets one shot by everything, then you have to res it, and heal it (which, there's no time to heal it BEFORE it gets killed), pets are pointless. It's more of a hassle to take them out than anything half the time. The reason venos are so vulnerable now is because of the broken pet system if you ask me. The entire class is based off the ability to use something that is now (since rb/r9rr+12s/cards) completely useless.

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver

jeimini wrote: »

Insert topic: Fix the gersh dern pet system

Because when your pet gets one shot by everything, then you have to res it, and heal it (which, there's no time to heal it BEFORE it gets killed), pets are pointless. It's more of a hassle to take them out than anything half the time. The reason venos are so vulnerable now is because of the broken pet system if you ask me. The entire class is based off the ability to use something that is now (since rb/r9rr+12s/cards) completely useless.

>The reason venos are so vulnerable now is because of the broken pet system if you ask me.
>The reason venos are so vulnerable

>Venos
>Vulnerable
youwotm8? Do you even veno at all?

Joe - Morai

Making a ranking about which class is the best and which is the worst is senseless imho. All classes are pretty equal (yes I mean it). There are just some classes where it is way easier to pull off a deadly combo skill-wise but that doesnt mean that other classes can't keep up if played right.

So many factors are counting into this. Gears, shardings, cards. Even at fully endgame gears it could be a smart choice to vary in terms of sharding when it comes to class x vs class y. A deity built might be better vs some classes while it could be suicidal vs other classes or a mix of both. This could only be determined at max endgame and we all know that our regular servers are not fit for this.

Some classes benefit more from buffs, others don't. Some classes have such a huge skill dmg that they could easily one-shot other classes on lower gears.

Thats why I am preaching about selfbuffed 1on1s for years now. At endgame this is the only scenario where any class could beat any class depending on how good you play your class. Some might have it a little hard and other could chill out while playing their class but they all have at least a chance of killing the enemy. I played all classes and I am pretty sure that I could beat anyone, with any class. not all the time ofc but I would have chances in doing so Which is all that matters imho.

BTT: Venos shouldnt have any problem, at least not in 1on1 and especially not in mass pvp. You guys can take quite a punch while having soo much chi (sage) all the time. Utilize it better and you have no problem. It's like people these days totally forget that the possible defensive meassures are limited. After your target is purged just triple spark and DD. If your target uses AD/IG or something like that just kite away and rebuilt chi meanwhile. After your sparks are full again go ahead and triple spark again but now your enemies apo/genie is in CD and excuse me But endgame venos in sage triple spark deal massive dmg With or without debuffs.

Same strategy works wonders for archers as well. FFS guys. use your friggin chi. Ofc you should always be aware that this kind of playstyle is dangerous...but if you rebuilt chi via skills you will always have your genie/apo as a fail save option.

I really have to feeling that most people are holding back when it comes to chi usage and usually die with 2 or more sparks still unused. What a waste. Only a fraction of the classes actually need 2 or more sparks as safety meassures..so why are you sitting on it. Any endgame chars deals enough dmg to kill any other target while being triple sparked. Period. Use that.

Eoria - Harshlands

Trip sparking for damage is usually not a good idea in mass pk unless you're a sin or a mystic since it just yells "please sog/cc/kill me". p;

Also, venos should be demon at end-game. 0 pdef is just way too powerful atm and chi gain is not that much of an issue with primal updates/chi siphon on genie. There's just zero reason to be sage once you're geared.

Joe - Morai

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Trip sparking for damage is usually not a good idea in mass pk unless you're a sin or a mystic since it just yells "please sog/cc/kill me". p;

Also, venos should be demon at end-game. 0 pdef is just way too powerful atm and chi gain is not that much of an issue with primal updates/chi siphon on genie. There's just zero reason to be sage once you're geared.

Like I said before many times, Mass PvP is not a factor when it comes to balance. Mass PvP is broken due to all the buffs we got. It is nearly impossible to kill someone with equal gears alone if fully buffed. Sure this opens up to many other strategic elements...but still not balanced and especially not fair. It should be common sense that you need to act differently in mass PvP compared to 1on1.

Besides that. if 10vs10 and all are triple sparking...who are you gonna sog and cc then? xDDD

Eoria - Harshlands

Joe - Morai wrote: »

Like I said before many times, Mass PvP is not a factor when it comes to balance. Mass PvP is broken due to all the buffs we got. It is nearly impossible to kill someone with equal gears alone if fully buffed. Sure this opens up to many other strategic elements...but still not balanced and especially not fair. It should be common sense that you need to act differently in mass PvP compared to 1on1.

Besides that. if 10vs10 and all are triple sparking...who are you gonna sog and cc then? xDDD

...is this a real response. **** is balanced towards mass pk, specifically tw, 100%.

Also, if all 10 trip spark in a 10v10, guess other side has it easy as hell since now the trip sparking side has no chi to do anything. ggwp.

jeimini

I do, in fact, veno on a daily basis. I have exactly one useful pet, and that's the monkey (150 gold when on sale). He is still a one shot sometimes. The rest of the time anywhere between two-four.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Joe - Morai wrote: »

So many factors are counting into this. Gears, shardings, cards. Even at fully endgame gears it could be a smart choice to vary in terms of sharding when it comes to class x vs class y. A deity built might be better vs some classes while it could be suicidal vs other classes or a mix of both. This could only be determined at max endgame and we all know that our regular servers are not fit for this.

A lot of those concerns would be lessened significantly with multiple people chiming in/getting an average of each class.

Marengo - Lost City

Joe - Morai wrote: »

BTT: Venos shouldnt have any problem, at least not in 1on1 and especially not in mass pvp. You guys can take quite a punch while having soo much chi (sage) all the time. Utilize it better and you have no problem. It's like people these days totally forget that the possible defensive meassures are limited. After your target is purged just triple spark and DD. If your target uses AD/IG or something like that just kite away and rebuilt chi meanwhile. After your sparks are full again go ahead and triple spark again but now your enemies apo/genie is in CD and excuse me But endgame venos in sage triple spark deal massive dmg With or without debuffs.

Who would stay and watch how you tripple spark? They don't need to use anything, just kite. Even sage veno won't be able to nova and spark at the same time, holy path and you are safe, sage veno is slow. Besides if you know veno can't kill you without spark, you can afk tank her while she is getting sparks and go full offensive which is pretty dangerous for veno depending on your class. What you described just doesn't work in practice unless opponent PvPs for the first time in his life or lags badly lol

Joe - Morai

Marengo - Lost City wrote: »

Who would stay and watch how you tripple spark? They don't need to use anything, just kite. Even sage veno won't be able to nova and spark at the same time, holy path and you are safe, sage veno is slow. Besides if you know veno can't kill you without spark, you can afk tank her while she is getting sparks and go full offensive which is pretty dangerous for veno depending on your class. What you described just doesn't work in practice unless opponent PvPs for the first time in his life or lags badly lol

XD it is not about giving them a choice. even when they kite you can easily rebuilt chi meanwhile. They cant kill you while they are running away from you (ok granted...sb can xD). Whats the prob with sparking? You can still use apo and genie afterwards as a fail-safe. I've seen so many people relying on their slow 2 spark ultis like nova is and for what? If you know you don't deal enough dmg to kill anyone with it why would you need to hold down your enemy for 8 seconds? They'll just pop wood immunity and laugh at you.

It's all situational And its good this way. You have to act accordingly to your enemy or you'll lose anyways most of the time But triple sparking is defenitly a good strategy in the right situation and sometimes the only way to kill your enemy Fast.

Sage sparked endgame venos are easily at 110k++ magic attack. Which selfbuffed class could take this dmg without being immune to it (cept barbs. Solid shield is killer )? Then pop a zooming thunder powder in the right moment and your enemy is gone. In the right moment. THE RIGHT MOMENT.

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver

Joe - Morai wrote: »

Sage sparked endgame venos are easily at 110k++ magic attack. Which selfbuffed class could take this dmg without being immune to it (cept barbs. Solid shield is killer )? Then pop a zooming thunder powder in the right moment and your enemy is gone. In the right moment. THE RIGHT MOMENT.

About every single class endgame could take that damage because passives.
Also sins.

Your strategy, even for your epeen on 1v1, is really REALLY terrible.

Joe - Morai

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »

About every single class endgame could take that damage because passives.
Also sins.

Your strategy, even for your epeen on 1v1, is really REALLY terrible.

Do you even endgame? XD

Sure. Every class could take this. That is why I am hitting over 20k crits on a buffed josd barb with my stormbringer in triple spark with Only ~76k upper stat magic attack. And this is far from being endgame. def passives did not have such a huge impact. If you only play fully buffed then ofc you would think that.

You guys might wanna use the dmg calc from our new beloved mypers site (: look at the dmg and then tell me if that isnt sufficient in killing anyone. ofc you would be wise to use it when you know that your enemies genie/apo is in CD. You all talk as if you have NEVER tried or experienced this. You are going with the majority here. Granted. Still. Some ways to win seem to be too obvious for people to use.

I remember a time when people actually complained in 1on1 when someone used triple spark because it was too unfair But hey. With the new update coming and everyone having 15 sec charm cd it will be way easier to kill each other. Oh thats gonna be great. All thos people that are unable to play defensively will go down like nothing. Looking forward to it (:

Eoria - Harshlands

15sec charm cd is just gonna make clerics op as hell in 1v1.

Marengo - Lost City

Joe - Morai wrote: »

Sage sparked endgame venos are easily at 110k++ magic attack. Which selfbuffed class could take this dmg without being immune to it (cept barbs. Solid shield is killer )? Then pop a zooming thunder powder in the right moment and your enemy is gone. In the right moment. THE RIGHT MOMENT.

Sparked damage is approximately double damage. It's not OP or 1shot or whatever. Just double. If you know veno can't kill you unless she sparks, use wood immune every 30 sec and you are safe. She will need at least 30 sec to restore chi or even more because she needs morph many times for that -> no attack. If she uses several sparks in a row, use your skills or apo. Tell me one thing: why I was able to survive vs cleric with endgame damage spamming 3chi several times trying to catch me in the RIGHT MOMENT even without metal immune and why I won't be able to survive veno who does this? XD

Joe - Morai wrote: »

I remember a time when people actually complained in 1on1 when someone used triple spark because it was too unfair But hey. With the new update coming and everyone having 15 sec charm cd it will be way easier to kill each other. Oh thats gonna be great. All thos people that are unable to play defensively will go down like nothing. Looking forward to it (:

Yes and nearly everyone could roll everyone with the first pounce. Cc, dd, done. Everything changed now with genies which defend you in control. I also killed ppl many times with tripple spark. Now I just laugh at that wondering what stopped them from running away while I was sparking.

You also forget an important thing: while veno is restoring chi, she can't counterattack because most of her powerful skills are chi consuming. If she doesn't counterattack, her opponent doesn't need to use genie/apo and they are happily recharging. When veno is ready, he is ready too.

Euzebe - Sanctuary

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

15sec charm cd is just gonna make clerics op as hell in 1v1.

Haha you funny, "gonna make"? b:laugh

Eoria - Harshlands

Euzebe - Sanctuary wrote: »

Haha you funny, "gonna make"? b:laugh

I suppose it'd be more correct to say "even more OP".