The way SBs work (buffwise)

Joe - Morai

I kinda wanna sum up what I wrote here:

NOTE: I posted it here and not in the subforum out of the simple reason that most people should read this and as it isn't solely SB related due to the effects on other people (DMG) engaging them. So if any MOD wants to move this thread...please move it into the PvP Ponderings and not the Class Subforum.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=22241601&postcount=6

So lets start:

The buff (Lunar Guidance):

It only reduces dmg from auto-attacks (aps). Nothing more. It does stack with the passive which leads into even more reduction from APS-dmg for the SB alone. A massive letdown if you ask me.

The passive (Blood of the nightshade):

First off, it does what it says BUT on top of that:

It also reduces and kind of dmg by ~30% if you are closer than 5m away from the SB. So as a SB you always wanna be close to your enemies in terms of tanking. I guess that effect is so "unimportant" that they figured they don't need to write it somewhere...xDDDDDD

While the buff is a heavy letdown the passive is indeed amazing.

PS: Important part's in red for better understanding.

Sylvae - Sanctuary

What are you talking about, it's been written on the skill since it came out that it reduces skill damage. And the thing about our squad buff only working on normal attacks, was even written in the expansion previews as its effect since before it even got here. The only thing I was unsure of, is if the attacks of mobs count as normal attacks or not, for if it even matters in instances. But since I'll have it either way, and people assume it does something if you use it, I have no vested interest in finding out if it doesn't. I'd rather have people want our buffs, whether it does something or not.

This whole thing is why were being touted as sin killers. BMs already avoided APS due to purify, but many sins could still get away with it. But our skills prevent any APS from being useful at all, and if stacked with DB buff heavily nerf any damage they can do outside skill spam. And sage will end up with Lunar Guidance dropping APS damage received from 32% down to 10%, if the numbers on our skill page are accuracte. Using a static number for that reduction doesn't work, since it changes based on lvl 10, celestial, and which celestial you have.

Joe - Morai

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

What are you talking about, it's been written on the skill since it came out that it reduces skill damage. And the thing about our squad buff only working on normal attacks, was even written in the expansion previews as its effect since before it even got here. The only thing I was unsure of, is if the attacks of mobs count as normal attacks or not, for if it even matters in instances. But since I'll have it either way, and people assume it does something if you use it, I have no vested interest in finding out if it doesn't. I'd rather have people want our buffs, whether it does something or not.

This whole thing is why were being touted as sin killers. BMs already avoided APS due to purify, but many sins could still get away with it. But our skills prevent any APS from being useful at all, and if stacked with DB buff heavily nerf any damage they can do outside skill spam. And sage will end up with Lunar Guidance dropping APS damage received from 32% down to 10%, if the numbers on our skill page are accuracte. Using a static number for that reduction doesn't work, since it changes based on lvl 10, celestial, and which celestial you have.

xD you are totally ignoring my main point here. The buff has been clear and I only added it as well for completion.

I'm about the passive. The passive is what makes SBs so strong. No one ever stated/tested before that the passive reduces any kind of dmg if it's casted in less than 5m range to the SB,

And yes, any attack from any mob that doesn't come with a shiny cast animation is considered melee auto-attack DMG and gets reduced by the buff. The buff is pretty much useless in PvP cept for fighting Archers and APS-built classes. APS wasn't a problem in endgame PvP before and it certainly isn't now...mind the buff or not.

PS: Please people. Try reading the whole post and not just parts of it. There is not a single being on this planet that is able to conclude me, not even myself. To get the whole picture...look at the friggin whole picture xD

WannaBM - Archosaur

Squad buff, anti archer.

Sounds nice for TW

Not really a a great thing if you ask me though. Yes, i had the idea that archers are OP in TW (but underpowered 1v1)

That OPness was purely from purge though. Now all they did was make the archers even more focussed on purge. They had better made it a squad buff that reduces the chance to be purged by 50% or something. Venos are OP as well anyway. (and before the archers start crying out loud, yes, all 3 r9 procs are OP, they made paralyze to counter purify, they should have made this buff to counter purge and they then sure they could make another thing to reduce the chance or effect of zerk)

Sylvae - Sanctuary

Joe - Morai wrote: »

xD you are totally ignoring my main point here. The buff has been clear and I only added it as well for completion.

I'm about the passive. The passive is what makes SBs so strong. No one ever stated/tested before that the passive reduces any kind of dmg if it's casted in less than 5m range to the SB,

And yes, any attack from any mob that doesn't come with a shiny cast animation is considered melee auto-attack DMG and gets reduced by the buff. The buff is pretty much useless in PvP cept for fighting Archers and APS-built classes. APS wasn't a problem in endgame PvP before and it certainly isn't now...mind the buff or not.

PS: Please people. Try reading the whole post and not just parts of it. There is not a single being on this planet that is able to conclude me, not even myself. To get the whole picture...look at the friggin whole picture xD

I did. The passive is the only skill that states it reduces skill damage. Kind of what I was talking about. You assumed I meant the buff, when only the passive states it does that. Which again proves my point: it has been stated since the beginning it reduces skill damage. It's always been there, you just assumed my point was about the buff and went with that. Why, I had no idea. You can just mouse over the skills and see it states, "Reduces incoming attack damage by 60%, and INCOMING SKILL DAMAGE by 23%."

No idea how it can't be stated any better than that. And by the way, your 30% is likely because you ignored the mastery passives, which would mean 23% would be at 30% in those cases.

Joe - Morai

oh man...and that the passive reduces any kind of dmg related to the range between the SB and the enemy is unimportant? Heck it seems like you guys think just as the devs...

The MOST important part BY FAR was:

!!!It also reduces and kind of dmg by ~30% if you are closer than 5m away from the SB.!!! So as a SB you always wanna be close to your enemies in terms of tanking. I guess that effect is so "unimportant" that they figured they don't need to write it somewhere...xDDDDDD

Do I really have to point out the most important info directly...heck if I'd read this the first time I would have made an uproar about that info...how can that be overlooked? I even wrote that the passive does what is written on it...

You can't find that info anywhere. Not in the forums, not in any kind of discription ingame. The dmg reduction related to range is what I was about. IT REDUCES BOTH PHYSICAL AND MAGICAL DMG = ANY KIND OF DMG but it only reduces magical dmg as well when you are close to the SB. Otherwise only physical skill dmg will be reduced. To be specific...that range-based addon does stack witht he regular effect of the passive and reduces dmg from phys skills even further.

How Can I make it any clearer?

WannaBM - Archosaur

Calm down Joe, take your pill :pb:chuckle

Think its clear enough. We need to use onslaught and ancestral rage against the stormbringer. Kinda funny, a magDD whos gonna try and anti-kite us, trying to stay close ? b:laugh

Sorry for my lighthearted posting. As i have quite the game, i dont share your enthusiasm, i only read the parts that i want to notice and dont really care too much anyway. Im sure someone else will come along and care

Sylvae - Sanctuary

Who thought it didn't reduce magical damage? If it meant it to refer to physical skill damage, they wouldn't have bothered adding on the incoming part, since the assumed melee would make it is an unnecessary word to add. Incoming skill damage by any reasonable reading, means all skill damage. You're clarifying your misunderstanding, as if everyone had it.

Joe - Morai

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

Who thought it didn't reduce magical damage? If it meant it to refer to physical skill damage, they wouldn't have bothered adding on the incoming part, since the assumed melee would make it is an unnecessary word to add. Incoming skill damage by any reasonable reading, means all skill damage. You're clarifying your misunderstanding, as if everyone had it.

I'm getting too much here...are you doing this to mock me or something?

IT DOESN'T reduce magical dmg. It only reduces magical dmg when the caster is 4.5m or closer to the SB. Otherwise it DOESN'T reduce magical DMG...

Evryn - Morai

So basically you're saying that in order to kill SB's you'll want to pile on skillbased ranged physical? IE Archers, Seekers, Mystics (Absorb Soul should hit Storms extremely hard as an instant type phys debuff, ignoring their passives completely) and maybe the odd spear/sword BM? I could have told you that...

That their main party buff is a letdown seems rather paltry considering the strength of their main skills (ESD for instance) and selfbuff.

XXHotXx - Morai

30% damage reduction respect the other classes p def self buffs that could be translated into smt like 60-80% damage reduction

is really nothing xD

i wouldn't go to barbs or sins close range to proc the passive, i believe thats just an oh-**** passive in case you get caught,

cause still you will get destroyed from barbs and sins having no pdef self buff

and all the classes with ranged skill phys damage like archers clerics mystics seekers wizards venos will completely delete them cause that will ignore every damage reduction passive and whatnot SB has

Evryn - Morai

... missing the (especially sage) BM there. I already noticed primal spiritchaser/primal fastrike combo tends to wipe Stormies quite effectively. And that's with the current crapspear I got... the spear I use is an unrefined Legacy one (from rebirthing).

Joe - Morai

Nah, you are getting me wrong.

The passive from SB reduces any physical skill dmg at any range by 23% (or something around that depending on gears, etc).

IT also reduces that Skill dmg by another ~30% if you are close to the sb (this one also applies to magical dmg or rather any kind of skill dmg). That stacks with the 23% previously mentioned btw. So if you are using ranged melee skills and you are close to the SB you and up getting your dmg reduced by ~60% and that is massive.

This applies to any ranged dmg from Barbs/BMs, any phys ranged skill from Barbs (onslaught/ancestral/BW), any physical skill DMG from seeker. And yes...if you use those skills close to the SB they will get their dmg reduced by ~60% (Note: could also be 30-60% in total depending on gears and stuff). Physical Magic skills such as Supercell, Blade Tempest and Plume Shot are uneffected by the regular effect, but they will get their dmg reduced when you are close to the SB.

I will test if it also applies to absorb soul but I guess it will. EDIT: Ok tested it, due to Absorb Soul being a dot it is uneffected by this passive in any case. Same goes for any magical dmg that is transformed into physical such as BT, SC and Plume Shot in terms of the basic reduction.

XXHotXx - Morai

Joe - Morai wrote: »

Nah, you are getting me wrong.

The passive from SB reduces any physical skill dmg at any range by 23% (or something around that depending on gears, etc).

IT also reduces that Skill dmg by another ~30% if you are close to the sb (this one also applies to magical dmg or rather any kind of skill dmg). That stacks with the 23% previously mentioned btw. So if you are using ranged melee skills and you are close to the SB you and up getting your dmg reduced by ~60% and that is massive.

This applies to any ranged dmg from Barbs/BMs, any phys ranged skill from Barbs (onslaught/ancestral/BW), any physical skill DMG from seeker. And yes...if you use those skills close to the SB they will get their dmg reduced by ~60% (Note: could also be 30-60% in total depending on gears and stuff). Physical Magic skills such as Supercell, Blade Tempest and Plume Shot are uneffected by the regular effect, but they will get their dmg reduced when you are close to the SB.

I will test if it also applies to absorb soul but I guess it will. EDIT: Ok tested it, due to Absorb Soul being a dot it is uneffected by this passive in any case. Same goes for any magical dmg that is transformed into physical such as BT, SC and Plume Shot in terms of the basic reduction.

thats because its not physical ranged skill reduction, but physical ranged auto-attack reduction

cmon joe you cant have a class that reduces physical melee skill damage and physical ranged skill damage, and physical auto-attacks damage at any range xD

SB passive its just good against archers, but still not that good because yea it reduce the auto-attack damage by a lot, but still they dont have any pdef self buff (anyways archers hit low)

you should test how the passive behave against archer's ranged skill damage like aim low and whatnot

Joe - Morai

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

thats because its not physical ranged skill reduction, but physical ranged auto-attack reduction

cmon joe you cant have a class that reduces physical melee skill damage and physical ranged skill damage, and physical auto-attacks damage at any range xD

SB passive its just good against archers, but still not that good because yea it reduce the auto-attack damage by a lot, but still they dont have any pdef self buff (anyways archers hit low)

you should test how the passive behave against archer's ranged skill damage like aim low and whatnot

I just made a test with my Cleric and SB again. Both have ~450 Spirit, 8.8k pdef and 36 def lvl and I hit on them with my archer with a lvl1 bow for consistent dmg:

SB:
Quickshot:
wide: 52-104
close: 20-40
Lightning strike:
wide: 29-58
close: 22-44
Wingspan:
46-92

Cleric:
Quickshot:
52-104
Lightning Strike:
24-48
Wingspan:
60-120

Just a good thing that sins have mostly skills that are within 5m range so the dmg reduction will apply for them. It's still weird...I get inconsistent result depending on which class I use for testing. Whenever or not this passive works as intended it needs some description fix asap xDD way too lazy to test out any class vs any class...there is a dmg reduction when you are closer than 5m to the SB and thats all I need to know xD

bloodedone87

What the ****? I actually dont get why some people have to do all this math thing or experiments trying to prove I dont know what instead of just playing the game.
I believe that 99% of players dont give a **** about all this. They just want to play and have fun.
b:bye

Evryn - Morai

Some people enjoy to figure things out and be efficient. If you don't like that yourself, move along.

XXHotXx - Morai

Joe - Morai wrote: »

I just made a test with my Cleric and SB again. Both have ~450 Spirit, 8.8k pdef and 36 def lvl and I hit on them with my archer with a lvl1 bow for consistent dmg:

SB:
Quickshot:
wide: 52-104
close: 20-40
Lightning strike:
wide: 29-58
close: 22-44
Wingspan:
46-92

Cleric:
Quickshot:
52-104
Lightning Strike:
24-48
Wingspan:
60-120

Just a good thing that sins have mostly skills that are within 5m range so the dmg reduction will apply for them. It's still weird...I get inconsistent result depending on which class I use for testing. Whenever or not this passive works as intended it needs some description fix asap xDD way too lazy to test out any class vs any class...there is a dmg reduction when you are closer than 5m to the SB and thats all I need to know xD

so at the end the best interpretation for the SB self buff and passive is that they reduce auto-attacks damage and they reduce skills (from just p.atk classes?) if casted in melee range

Joe - Morai

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

so at the end the best interpretation for the SB self buff and passive is that they reduce auto-attacks damage and they reduce skills (from just p.atk classes?) if casted in melee range

It seems like they are reducing dmg from any kind of skill if it's cast from melee range altho it seems that physical skill get reduced more than magical ones. It's so weird and no where near the actual discription of the skill. Still it should be a good 30-40% dmg reduction at endgame so that's quite something. DMG reduction of the outcoming dmg, not the initial dmg. So I still bet they have the best survivability vs melee classes like sins/Barbs/BMs anyways and being able to reduce some magic dmg while being close to the enemy is neat too.

Once PWE decides to throw out real gears for them and we happen to get some endgame geared SBs we'll know for sure.

Quilue - Sanctuary

What the hell? I thought Purify is supposed to counter APS, and Primal buff is supposed to counter Purge.

XXHotXx - Morai

joe could you please test this

SB vs Archer

Archer auto-attack damage from max range

Archer qs skill from max range

Archer auto-attack from melee range

Archer qs from melee range

Joe - Morai

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

joe could you please test this

SB vs Archer

Archer auto-attack damage from max range

Archer qs skill from max range

Archer auto-attack from melee range

Archer qs from melee range

xD damn I already tested this but forgot to write it down, its like that (QS date is already provided a few posts back):

The autoattack dmg from archer gets reduced by both the passive and the buff and that does stack...if an archer tries to autoattack you from close range (where archers would naturally also do less dmg) then they pretty much deal no dmg at all (at least 90% less dmg compared to ranged autoattack on a non-SB-class, maybe even more). I will provide fresh data soon tho.