Sage or Demon?

lischty

Since nobodies made a thread about it, which path are you guy's choosing for your Duskblade. Sage or Demon? Why?

Derressh - Dreamweaver

Personally I'm thinking sage for mine. And judging by the poll, it seems to be a popular choice.

Whenever I have to make the decision for a new class I pick up, I look through all the options and tally which skills I like better as sage or demon. Usually, the one with the most tallies wins, unless there's some skills that are just absolutely amazing must-haves. Sage seems like it has the possibility to generate tons of chi.

Also, the demon spark giving crit% which doesn't stack with our other crit buff instead of aps is a bit of a bother.

thelastbarb1

I personally believe that there's so much potential with duskblades going demon. More crit, reduced cast skills, reduced skill cooldowns and longer Crowd Control skills are just some of the perks. I am sure demon will also help us come up with more combos because of reduced skill cooldowns.

lestadsan

I was totally about going demon, but with the demon spark giving crit instead of aps, i don't know anymore. Sage is very good actually, with the % of weapon damage in some skills, more chi and the damage reduction from sage spark. But the increased crit and CC durations of demon are very tempting.

Saethos - Raging Tide

In my opinion the fact that demon spark gives crit instead of aps makes demon even better. APS is dated and with reaper form and galemark -> Ode -> Winged Dragon you generate 60 chi (75 for both sage and demon) so set it on a macro, reaper form, demon spark and use that macro over and over and you hit harder than APSing, don't need to use our other crit boost skill, and get enough chi within 15 seconds to keep sparking. In endgame gear it means your crit rate is kept at 100%

2 of the best duskblade skills are charge based and as demon will lower the charge time it will make them much easier to use them to their full potential. Given duskblade is so clearly a CC class that is important as well as longer stun durations. Chi management can be done with a smart playstyle and a good genie. Given some of our best skills don't cost chi, or cost only a little, I think if you play smart you won't need to be sage to use all your best chi skills. That and I've always had a problem with sage skills that have a -chance- to not cost chi...usually you plan on it costing the normal chi and are ready for it to do so anyway...This coming from a sage BM, I never rely on, say, dragon rising to proc. It's just nice when it does. In the case of duskblade I think demon has more to offer.

DeathenShada - Archosaur

lischty wrote: »

Since nobodies made a thread about it, which path are you guy's choosing for your Duskblade. Sage or Demon? Why?

I was litteraly just about to make this thread lol


But ya like others have said Demon looks nice for PvP with the better crit, longer stuns, shorter cast times, and stuff.

While sage looks great for a more passive damage boost, with tons of chi, and longer reaper form/stealth.

Overall I just can't decided, first I swore I was going demon, then I said i'm going sage, now demon again. The skills are just too close with no defining factor to definitively shout SAGE or DEMON. b:surrender

Embalmed - Archosaur

DeathenShada - Archosaur wrote: »

Overall I just can't decided, first I swore I was going demon, then I said i'm going sage, now demon again. The skills are just too close with no defining factor to definitively shout SAGE or DEMON. b:surrender

This^
I went demon on mine before anyone really knew that demon spark gave crit rather than aps and I'm loving it. Even after reading all the translated skill I couldn't see one being clearly better than the other, so I picked demon. Partially because I like the effects on our CC skills it adds, but also because if I do ever want to be sage all I'll have to do is buy a schism and switch.

opkossy

It's veno and cleric all over again. A balanced cultivation where what you choose depends more on how you play than one being leaps and bounds above the other.

Desdi - Sanctuary

OPKossy wrote: »

It's veno and cleric all over again. A balanced cultivation where what you choose depends more on how you play than one being leaps and bounds above the other.

That's nice though!
I missed those discussions on the Cleric/Venomancer forums... so dead these days.


On topic: I chose Sage because........ well, my Duskblade is just an alt I made to entertain myself, and try out the "new stuff". I didn't think much about its cultivation.
I mostly chose Sage because of the easy/lazy Master Li's Technique chi making (I know you can also spam the buff for chi), and if I recall correctly they had the better squad buff so it works nice as a buffer (Demon was more self-beneficial I think).


Also because I'm apparently destined to play Demon toons as mains and Duskblade is just an alt. Venomancer is Demon... my Sage Cleric somehow ended up being abandoned for my Demon one (long story), I lost interest in playing my Sage Psychic, Sage Mystic was abandoned too (long story) @_@

bearcalledpooh

Demon for me because:

- Longer antistun
- Another CC skill when we attack out of Silence dread (stealth)
- reduced cooldown for reaper form
- longer sleep
- spammable buff for 15 attack levels
- And longer stun

opkossy

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also because I'm apparently destined to play Demon toons as mains and Duskblade is just an alt. Venomancer is Demon... my Sage Cleric somehow ended up being abandoned for my Demon one (long story), I lost interest in playing my Sage Psychic, Sage Mystic was abandoned too (long story) @_@

Because your tail and I are plotting many things. b:sin

DeathenShada - Archosaur

After mulling over the skills I think the easiest way to sum is up would be.

If you want a PvP Duskblade = Demon
If you want a PvE Duskblade = Sage

At least in my opinion, with the demon version being more focused on CC, extra stuns, and quick burst damage; while the sage taking a more passive approach with extra chi/skill damage and a more extended increase in damage. I think that's the best way to look at it.

So just like OPKossy said it's going to depend on your play style. But ya I've literally read the demon/sage skills like over 30 times, done talies, compared in various scenarios and that's probably the simplest way I can put it.

Chrisalys - Dreamweaver

DeathenShada - Archosaur wrote: »

After mulling over the skills I think the easiest way to sum is up would be.

If you want a PvP Duskblade = Demon
If you want a PvE Duskblade = Sage

At least in my opinion, with the demon version being more focused on CC, extra stuns, and quick burst damage; while the sage taking a more passive approach with extra chi/skill damage and a more extended increase in damage. I think that's the best way to look at it.

So just like OPKossy said it's going to depend on your play style. But ya I've literally read the demon/sage skills like over 30 times, done talies, compared in various scenarios and that's probably the simplest way I can put it.

Idk, that wep damage on some skills and sage mastery, plus infinite chi to use reflection skills (Yes you spend 2 sparks to hf, black ice, and so on)
That reduction on Ripple's cooldown looks cool for PvP as well.

I think both are well balanced, but with 60%+ base crits from R9 I don't think more crits are big edge, but the 15 spammable att levels looks very nice as well.
Range on the teleports also means you can catch casters from outside their range.
And sage dragon trap when full charged hits an extreme poison or hf idk for 30%

We have a very difficult choice here.

DeathenShada - Archosaur

Chrisalys - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Idk, that wep damage on some skills and sage mastery, plus infinite chi to use reflection skills (Yes you spend 2 sparks to hf, black ice, and so on)
That reduction on Ripple's cooldown looks cool for PvP as well.

I think both are well balanced, but with 60%+ base crits from R9 I don't think more crits are big edge, but the 15 spammable att levels looks very nice as well.
Range on the teleports also means you can catch casters from outside their range.
And sage dragon trap when full charged hits an extreme poison or hf idk for 30%

We have a very difficult choice here.

I'm not saying sages can't PvP, I'm just saying that it seems like Demon's are more tailored too it.

For example you have increased stuns/sleep times, your charges max charge time is reduced meaning you have a better chance to get it off. Motionless move after stealth freezes, Motionless move no longer has a cast time, spam able 15 attk levels, can't be CC'd in ripples etc etc the list goes on. All the skills are more tailored to keeping people stun locked, or getting combo's off faster.

But if you look at sage skills it definitely plays a more passive roll, you have less stuns, more skills that are 50%-60% increase in dmg to X skill or weapon boost. You have skills with reduced cast time, increased chi gain, increased debuff duration (for example the Phy debuff last longer, compared to demon which has a increased debuff % - In a pvp fight you would rather do more damage faster and burst people down before their charm ticks, then have a debuff last longer).

Sure like you said you have to consider the increased range, but when compared to demon pvp capabilities it clearly outshines sage imo. Also not everyone can afford R9 so crit from Demon is not that bad at all.

I just feel that sage seems geared to longer drawn out fights like you would see with bosses in PvE. While demon sacrifices that extra defense, chi, range, and passive damage boosts for extra CC's and stuns to destroy their opponent quickly.

Which is what I believe the dev's intended and they succeeded. They created a class where Demon/Sage is very balanced and it makes it hard to decide, and what it will come down to is your own playstyle.

When I listed Demon = PvP, and Sage = PvE; I did that as a summary to help anyone who is reading this thread and has a playstyle in mind make a easy choice in reagards to their culti. So once again I'm not saying sages cannot PvP, I'm sure that if I went Demon tons of sages would kick my rear end since if you have enough skill your culti doesn't matter. All i'm saying is Demon seems to be geared towards a more PvP playstyle.

TBH I still haven't decided if I wanna be Demon or Sage so I don't want to come off as being biased towards Demon duskblades. I'm just throwing out my opinion if you think i'm wrong then go Sage. Play whatever you think is best and what you think will be the most fun. b:cute

CapnK - Sanctuary

Sage gets 30m range on relentless drift and blinking movement. That's pretty huge because it outranges most casters. Although demon gets an extra 5m on the reel in move.

mysteryveteran

DeathenShada - Archosaur wrote: »

I'm not saying sages can't PvP, I'm just saying that it seems like Demon's are more tailored too it.

But if you look at sage skills it definitely plays a more passive roll, you have less stuns, more skills that are 50%-60% increase in dmg to X skill or weapon boost. You have skills with reduced cast time, increased chi gain, increased debuff duration (for example the Phy debuff last longer, compared to demon which has a increased debuff % - In a pvp fight you would rather do more damage faster and burst people down before their charm ticks, then have a debuff last longer). b:cute

That's like saying demon sins are more tailored to pvp since demon sins have +1 sec stun on cursed jail and +2 sec stun on shadow teleport, 100% sleep, 50% slow on tackling slash and 30% imobolise on power dash. All extra ccs that isn't needed on the class, I know Duskblades are not sins but they are similar.

The only extra cc demon duskblades have is a 5 sec imobolise, on a class that has 7 paralyse skills, 5 stuns and 1 sleep an extra imobolise isn't much of a boost if at all. Yes demon DB has +1 sec on their sleep, not much of a boost on a sleep that originally is a 5 sec sleep, and +1 on demon destiny hunter not much of a boost on a skill that's originally a 6 sec stun. The only cc boost that I see as worthwhile is relentless drift as it doubles the original cc time from 1 to 2 secs and even then it has a cast of 0.7 secs and is used mostly for movement.

mysteryveteran

Both demon and sage duskblades have good chi gain but sage DBs s hit chi what do you do with all that extra chi, 3 spark. We can keep 3 spark up almost permanent while being able to use our high chi consuming skills and those lovely reflect skills.

Combine the 25% damage reduction from sage 3 spark and sage Eternity 30% 5 sec focused mind, not so squishy afterall. b:pleased

Sage Eternity = 30% Focused Mind VS Demon Eternity= 30% Tidal Protection:
5 sec duration, 8 sec cd and spammable.

When your CCd, your CCd as your being hit sage Eternity helps to turn all that damage done on you to 1 lol. 2 hits 60% evade, 3 hits 90% evade.
If someone wants to cc you they will do it on first attempt a 30% chance to block that cc wont be much of help its mostly against chance to cc skills like barb paralyse that demon Eternity will shine. (im slightly jelly of demon eternity) b:laugh


Sage Dragon Trap 5sec amp duration 15sec cd is spammable.
Don't forget that 30% hf +20% ep, 50% amp sweet spike damage. b:dirty
If its not a hf and instead a subsea well that's one free slot on genie.

I am a bit biased for sage DB. I cant wait to see morai and primal skills those mostly bring culti benefits together eg chi, cc.

iperen

It has been hard to decide but in the end I choose demon. It's hard on a new class when the main pvp experience is being 1-shot, to get a good idea of what I want, but got to make a choice at some point b:laugh The main reasons that got my decision in favor of demon are :

- Reduced charge time on Slash of Pride. AoE disarm up to 9 sec is really nice. The charge reduction is really significant. Same for Dragon Trap, but in a bit less extend as the sage add is also really good.
- Immune in Settling Ripple cast. I hope this is really immune and not a bless buff at 100%.
- Sage obviously has the chi advantage but the class itself already has good chi generation for the chi-costly skills. Demon chi add on Galemark is already very nice as it's the 1st skill for many combos.
- Spamming Galemark and Everlasting Ode in reaperform just sounds fun.
- The crit boost on demon spark is a big pro for me too.
- I'm not the person to farm TT endlesly and I'm not sure if I'll ever get the gear to do that more efficiently on Duskblade then on my main Psychic, which partly takes away the importance of perma-spark for me.

Overall, I like the increased paralyse times but sage got nice points to that doesn't make it a real deciding factor. The above points are just what made me choose demon on a very slight edge. On many skills it's really hard to decide.

lischty

Chrisalys - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Idk, that wep damage on some skills and sage mastery, plus infinite chi to use reflection skills (Yes you spend 2 sparks to hf, black ice, and so on)
That reduction on Ripple's cooldown looks cool for PvP as well.

I think both are well balanced, but with 60%+ base crits from R9 I don't think more crits are big edge, but the 15 spammable att levels looks very nice as well.
Range on the teleports also means you can catch casters from outside their range.
And sage dragon trap when full charged hits an extreme poison or hf idk for 30%

We have a very difficult choice here.

Spamming The buff for the 15 atk levels for a few seconds isn't really worth it imo, it costs 400+ mana to cast every single time I'd rather have a chance at a spark for that much cost

iperen

lischty wrote: »

Spamming The buff for the 15 atk levels for a few seconds isn't really worth it imo, it costs 400+ mana to cast every single time I'd rather have a chance at a spark for that much cost

I wonder if the 15 att lvls are just for caster or if it affects everyone within squad+range (like demon bell). Anyone knows ?

Eoria - Harshlands

iperen wrote: »

I wonder if the 15 att lvls are just for caster or if it affects everyone within squad+range (like demon bell). Anyone knows ?

It should work like demon verdant shell for mystics in which it only works for the caster.

bearcalledpooh

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

It should work like demon verdant shell for mystics in which it only works for the caster.

But verdant shell is a selfbuff and lunar blessing is a squad buff so you can't base it on that skill.

DeathenShada - Archosaur

bearcalledpooh wrote: »

But verdant shell is a selfbuff and lunar blessing is a squad buff so you can't base it on that skill.

Except the skill states "raises 'your' attack level by 15 for x seconds"

That "your" is kinda important. Besides the point that would be stupid if it affected all you squad mates, then duskblades would just turn into squad buffers. Just stand there and cast your squad buff over and over.

iperen

DeathenShada - Archosaur wrote: »

Except the skill states "raises 'your' attack level by 15 for x seconds"

That "your" is kinda important. Besides the point that would be stupid if it affected all you squad mates, then duskblades would just turn into squad buffers. Just stand there and cast your squad buff over and over.

I wouldn't take translated PW tool tips to that degree of linguistic analysis. As it looks now, for me it could be both. If you compare 15 att lvls to existing numbers and buffs, whole squad effect isn't out of place. I also see nothing wrong with it for squad play, just look at demon bms or barbs.

Tbh, I was more asking for someone who knows because atm it could be read in both ways.

Euthymius - Heavens Tear

I like how the choice between the two cultis aren't....clear cut decisions
I honestly can't decide yet. In my view the benefits between the two would be:

Sage

+Both Jumps outrange most Caster classes

+Stronger passives

+Longer Silence Dread

+Many chances to gain/save Chi during/Out of battle (Motionless, Chant, Grief, Strigi, Prey, Master Li's)

+Settling Ripple's CD reduced to 1 minute

+Some skills hit a bit harder with weapon damage/damage add-ons (Owl, Dual, Pride, Gale, Moonlight)

+Dragon Trap briefly amplifies damage taken

Other:
Lunar Grace gives a fire damage add-on, which can help deal status through physical immunity


Demon

+Slightly longer duration of Status effects in general (Drift, Grief, Moonlight, Destiny)

+Lunar Grace provides more anti-stun time

+Lower charge time on Charge-type skills (Trap and Pride)

+Complete immunity with Settling Ripple

+Arc reduces PDef by 60%

+Shadow Prey range boosted to 25m

+Moon Chant briefly raises Attack Level

Idk, sage seems to follow a more consistent DPH role with the weapon damage adds and bonuses just hitting harder and getting more opportunities to use the stronger skills in general with all the chi you can save. Meanwhile, Demon is more about DPS rushdown attempts while holding someone in place easier.

wynndyc

Euthymius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I like how the choice between the two cultis aren't....clear cut decisions
I honestly can't decide yet. In my view the benefits between the two would be:

Sage

+Both Jumps outrange most Caster classes

+Stronger passives

+Longer Silence Dread

+Many chances to gain/save Chi during/Out of battle (Motionless, Chant, Grief, Strigi, Prey, Master Li's)

+Settling Ripple's CD reduced to 1 minute

+Some skills hit a bit harder with weapon damage/damage add-ons (Owl, Dual, Pride, Gale, Moonlight)

+Dragon Trap briefly amplifies damage taken

Other:
Lunar Grace gives a fire damage add-on, which can help deal status through physical immunity


Demon

+Slightly longer duration of Status effects in general (Drift, Grief, Moonlight, Destiny)

+Lunar Grace provides more anti-stun time

+Lower charge time on Charge-type skills (Trap and Pride)

+Complete immunity with Settling Ripple

+Arc reduces PDef by 60%

+Shadow Prey range boosted to 25m

+Moon Chant briefly raises Attack Level

Idk, sage seems to follow a more consistent DPH role with the weapon damage adds and bonuses just hitting harder and getting more opportunities to use the stronger skills in general with all the chi you can save. Meanwhile, Demon is more about DPS rushdown attempts while holding someone in place easier.

Thank you I still cannot decide between demon or sage. Both seem to be really good, also I'm not sure about the spark...

Taikai - Lost City

The spark in game for Demon says it's attack rate.. even my sin is still 5.0 with demon spark.. Misprint? wouldn't be the first time...

Anyways the only thing that appealed for me in sage was the port range which can be augmented with holy path, speed skill and some other skills boost speed. I belive the steal and speed skill is meant for you to get close with out them noticing.
I like the shorted 3 sec challenging skills the most on the demon side. For me it made no sense why you would just charge your weapon like that being a LA class. Perhaps they should make those skills charge while moving? Kinda like axe class in Te.ra? Galmark is pretty much the main stay of the combos as well so demon gives chi for using that (I use it all the time)

Demon for meb:bye

P.S. they actually ban the the use of T.e.r.a b:laugh ****

dark8hamster

Euthymius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

+Stronger passives
+Some skills hit a bit harder with weapon damage/damage add-ons (Owl, Dual, Pride, Gale, Moonlight)

I think that atk lvl of demon Moon Chant give at the end the same damage as sage passive & other quoted skills so I'd prefer demon.

Kiymori - Heavens Tear

Looking at it from a PvP perspective.


Demon

1)Free damage immunity skill

-I don't even need to explain this, this bonus can be the difference between surviving a 1v1 or mass PvP situation by saving you just enough time for a charm tick or perhaps a genie/apoth CD.

2)Free Attack level increase skill(not that amazing but it's better than nothing)

-I can't really say this skill would be amazing 1v1, but in group PvP it could be a nice opener to leap in to do some burst damage.

3)Better overall CC meaning much more control over combos

-Which personally I feel is much more important than slightly higher base damage on skills since as I am sure we all noticed, duskblades killing and survivability is heavily dependent on it's ability to utilize its combos properly.

4)Free Anti debuff skill(assuming it works like sins Tidal)

-Since the duskblades lack reliable anti CC and overall survivability I personally feel this added bonus really will help allow you to continue combos and if you're lucky not get purged.

5)Lower charge CD on important combo skills

-No explanation needed.

EDIT:

For those reasons alone demon appealed a lot more to me, I wont deny that sage has some fantastic benefits such as chi building and slightly higher base damage on skills, but personally I feel boosting my CC ability is more important to me.

However the fact I can also have a spammable damage amp skill as a sage DB for PvP is making the decision even harder as well as elemental damage(which is extremely useful for expel spammers). Chi is really not that much of an issue considering I feel duskblades have an extremely easy time maintaining chi in general.

But I will say that either path is not a bad choice but I reserve my choice till further notice, but for now demon is still going to be my first choice until I decide otherwise.

therev

ii went sage on mine i love chi and i do think buff is better for squads ( not positive ) but for the time being untill we get the other skills / books im loving it b:victory

mysteryveteran

I've now decided I'm changing my mind and going demon.b:laugh
In PVP every second counts.

The already mentioned skills:

Tidal Protection

Settling Ripple 90 sec cd complete immunity comparable to veno feral concentration 3min cd that's half the cd of 3 mins. The original 80% dr lasts longer than the 4.3 sec cast time like 6 secs, if demon version immune lasts 6 secs we will be able to aoe paralyse and tele back into safety with ease.

Anti stun lasting 2 extra secs.

I thought sage had the survival cause of the 25% damage reduction, being able to use SR sooner, 1.6% more max reduction from passive and the damage evade but demons truly have better survivabilty to me because of the 3 above skills that prevent a Duskblade from being cced in the first place.

I underestimated demon Duskblade CC boosts, they aren't like CC boosts from other class cultis, they really aren't minor.
For example when wanting to stun lock that 1 sec extra stun duration from Relentless Drift is very nice, using 3 tele stuns in a row becomes a 6sec lock whilst sage remains at 3 secs.

Divine Moonlight lasting 1 sec longer, allows more time to use Moon Chant and gain chi and allows skills to come off cd. Grief lasting 1 more sec is very nice, on skills that have 30 sec cds Stigimorphic Dive and Blinking Moment those cds being reduced is pretty huge for faster lock.

Destinty Hunter lasting 7 long secs is very nice especially with the skill taking away 0.6 secs to use a skill after due to cast time. Demon Duskblades longer lasting ccs will put enemies under more pressure leading them to waste genie energy setting them up for a nice trap with Destiny Hunter.

Veno's Bewitch that can take us out of Reaper Form is a pain and having demon RF with a reduced cd of 5 secs is nice in general.

When it comes to genies I say every Duskblade in general should have tangling mire, for demons with the 60% pdef debuff bump genie strength to 25 upgrading the TM debuff to 40%, together making a 100% pdef debuff which they can have on a survival vit + magic genie. This debuff combo can be used at will like wizys use genie spark.

The 80 chi gain every 3 secs in RF and every 6 secs out of RF with both culti versions makes Duskblade chi gain comparable with sage venos and sins. The already mentioned extra chi on our combo opener Gale Mark is helpful. To add to this Duskblades can get chi out of combat by spamming Moon Chant whether demon or sage.
Demon Everlasting Ode reducing targets chi by 15 is very nice combined with Mo Zaun's Taunt. With 1 sec cds in RF and 6 sec cds out of RF 15 chi drain every 2 secs is no joke, think of all the sparks we can drain. While sage Duskblades have the chi advantage, demons s hit chi also and drain enemies chi by alot especially EO being aoe.

Crit boost from spark is also nice, demons truly can spike damage more. Now I realise reduced charge times are extremely useful majority of the time better cc from DT and longer wep disarm from SoP, demon Duskblades are even more fast paced on an already fast paced class. The 30% hf from sage DT only applies on the 4th hit, if interupted mid way or less or cancelled then no hf. lvl 100 skill ShadowSever is a 20% hf although 3 min cd, theres also bms to copy hf from.

Lastly the demon fairy looks badass. b:chuckle
These are my reasons for changing my mind if primal skills do come and sage gets better upgrades who knows I could change my mind again but its looking very unlikely.