The Sin Issue...and The Problem With Haters

Auerlius - Archosaur

yet another sin-hate thread posted by yours truly...but with a twist. Now i know my fans can't wait to discredit and insult everything i have to say, so i'm gonna leave this one on you pwi. I think if enough of us (not just me) come forth and speak up, even if things don't change, we at least can let them know by pulling our purse strings and literally shutting down the market that we have achieved an awareness of how lop sided and screwed up things have become.

for this post i am asking you to put some thought into it and list some solid ideas for balancing the classes so that everyone (not just sins/barbs) can dominate in 1v1. Tsy and Kossy this includes you too, as you guys were so passionate about me being wrong last time, 6 months down the road everyone is saying exactly what i was about how unbalanced the new skills are. since you guys were so good at insulting and discrediting i challenge you to be the devil advocate this time. or are you only capable of trolling for the sake of defending the game (and/or your status in it)?

Tsy, you in particular, you have a very concise way of presenting an arguement, which i like. but i ask you to do one thing different this time. i am gonna challenge your knowledge/debating prowess. instead of rushing to defend your class, take a moment and assume that ALL these people complaining may actually have a legit gripe and see if you can find a way to understand your opponent in this debate instead of just insulting and/or discrediting them. Kossy i would ask you to do the same but as a mod you are supposed to be impartial (as ifb:chuckle) but you are welcome, as is anyone else, to comment too. i only ask that we put up suggestions on this thread. leave the complaining to the other ones, thank you all.

bloodedone87

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

yet another sin-hate thread posted by yours truly...but with a twist. Now i know my fans can't wait to discredit and insult everything i have to say, so i'm gonna leave this one on you pwi. I think if enough of us (not just me) come forth and speak up, even if things don't change, we at least can let them know by pulling our purse strings and literally shutting down the market that we have achieved an awareness of how lop sided and screwed up things have become.

for this post i am asking you to put some thought into it and list some solid ideas for balancing the classes so that everyone (not just sins/barbs) can dominate in 1v1. Tsy and Kossy this includes you too, as you guys were so passionate about me being wrong last time, 6 months down the road everyone is saying exactly what i was about how unbalanced the new skills are. since you guys were so good at insulting and discrediting i challenge you to be the devil advocate this time. or are you only capable of trolling for the sake of defending the game (and/or your status in it)?

Tsy, you in particular, you have a very concise way of presenting an arguement, which i like. but i ask you to do one thing different this time. i am gonna challenge your knowledge/debating prowess. instead of rushing to defend your class, take a moment and assume that ALL these people complaining may actually have a legit gripe and see if you can find a way to understand your opponent in this debate instead of just insulting and/or discrediting them. Kossy i would ask you to do the same but as a mod you are supposed to be impartial (as ifb:chuckle) but you are welcome, as is anyone else, to comment too. i only ask that we put up suggestions on this thread. leave the complaining to the other ones, thank you all.

How about you learn how to play your class and you wont be dominated by sins or barbs in 1vs1.
There are actually few sins and barbs there that really knows how to play( i am none of those since i barely pvp) The rest are just average players.

Ibunneh - Raging Tide

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Wow

Auerlius - Archosaur

bloodedone87 wrote: »

How about you learn how to play your class and you wont be dominated by sins or barbs in 1vs1.
There are actually few sins and barbs there that really knows how to play( i am none of those since i barely pvp) The rest are just average players.

ok thank you that's a honest suggestion. i will learn how to play, or at least try to. however since you barely pvp how do you know that i am wrong? if you ask the people who pvp ALOT they are saying now what i said months ago. honestly speaking i am serious about having their input put on here. tsy and OP too, but from the side of things they were against originally. why? i'd like to see if they still feel that way after speaking to other people.

i have spoken to the folks on my server [archo] and even people i don't know are telling me they see it. my skill at presentation must need work cause on here i get told i'm wrong. confusing to say the least. either way thank you.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

ok thank you that's a honest suggestion. i will learn how to play, or at least try to. however since you barely pvp how do you know that i am wrong? if you ask the people who pvp ALOT they are saying now what i said months ago. honestly speaking i am serious about having their input put on here. tsy and OP too, but from the side of things they were against originally. why? i'd like to see if they still feel that way after speaking to other people.

i have spoken to the folks on my server [archo] and even people i don't know are telling me they see it. my skill at presentation must need work cause on here i get told i'm wrong. confusing to say the least. either way thank you.

Next time go read the sin forums pls, we actually do math and test there, unlike the cleric forums >.>.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Next time go read the sin forums pls, we actually do math and test there, unlike the cleric forums >.>.

Since when? I thought archer forums was the only math forum. Seriously speaking though, playing sin with primal skills and failing is pretty damn hard(I seen such players so they do exist). Camp tidal, spam lifehunter, lock target with vast arsenal of CC skills, spark cause you **** chi and kill target with debuffs and elimination when their genie is on CD. The simplicity and effectiveness of said strategies make class simply broken, you dont need to be good to wreck ppl.

opkossy

Oh look. Another of these things where you make false claims about what happened in the past and try to discredit people who were pointing out how bad your play was by shifting to an entirely different topic and then pretending it was relevant at all to what happened.

Good joke, guy.

tsyfall

Auerlius is actually right, though. Perfect World is not a balanced game, and hasn't been since the TT era.

It's obviously a somewhat balanced game. After all, Perfect World Entertainment DOES have an intelligence comparable to that of a nematode worm. I mean, they both spew viley discharged, absolutely disgusting and copious amounts of biological waste products (how's that for filter circumvention, OPKossy?) into their environment, and feed parasitically on the things that sustain them.

But no, Perfect World is not a totally balanced game, and won't be except for reverting to the TT era. Because, really, Perfect World is a game that has incompatible balance because its ten different classes have disparate base values. If each class was merely a different playstyle approach to the same problem of gameplay, then at their very core classes could be balanced. 1 = 2/2 = e^0 = lim x->infinity of (x^2+1)/x^2.

But it's not, so balancing Perfect World is like playing an unsolvable game of Sudoku. Believe me, I've tried. Consider the following, very basic example:

Assume Light Armor 1v1 vs Heavy Armor is balanced.
Therefore:

Light Armor has high base physical damage (to counter high defense of HA).
Heavy Armor has low base physical damage (because LA phys armor is weak).
Therefore, both classes deal medium damage on each other (high-high, low-low).

Assume Arcane Armor vs Heavy Armor is balanced.
Therefore:

Heavy Armor has low base physical damage (because of previous conjuncture, and because AA phys armor is weak).
Arcane Armor has low base magic damage (because if HA hits medium due to low-low on arcane, then arcane must also hit medium for it to be balanced, and also the fact that HA always has lower mag defense).
Therefore, both classes deal medium damage on each other (low-low, low-low).

Now consider LA vs Arcane Armor:
LA has high magical defense (base attribute of LA) and high damage (conjuncture 1).
AA has low physical defense (base attribute of AA) and low damage (conjuncture 2).
Therefore, LA on AA deals high damage, and AA on LA deals low damage. Thus, not balanced.

And this works for any armor type. If you balance two, then the third cannot be balanced.

And that's just a simple trinity example problem involving 3 armor types and their attributes. Imagine trying to balance for things like Purify, Paralyze, Genies, different refine rates, stealth, control vs damage, APS, critical rate, benefiting more from attack levels than another class, etc.

The truth is that the game began with a simple, easily balanced beginning. But since then, a combination of Wanmei's alternate visions and PWE's extraordinarily lacking of PvP understanding (and perhaps, common sense) has destroyed the game, piece by piece.

There is no solution.


Rest assured, Auerlius. My original point to you was that you were part of the problem. But you're not all of it. This game, since its inception, has slowly commited suicide.

opkossy

Taking what you said above a step further, even from the start there's always been at least a class that would dominate the others. It's always been a cycle of one class (or class type) being able to crush almost everyone else with relative ease. Just a question of which one at any given moment. Same with the opposite of one class being basically food for every other class as well.


There's no such thing as true and perfect balance. We just have an extreme case that gets compounded by differences in gear and player skill. Even the most overpowered class in maxed out gear can be taken down trivially if a skilled player is fighting an unequal opponent... but when two equally skilled (or unskilled as the case may be) players clash gear and class are the top factors followed by luck.

socean#3691

OPKossy wrote: »

Taking what you said above a step further, even from the start there's always been at least a class that would dominate the others. It's always been a cycle of one class (or class type) being able to crush almost everyone else with relative ease. Just a question of which one at any given moment. Same with the opposite of one class being basically food for every other class as well.


There's no such thing as true and perfect balance. We just have an extreme case that gets compounded by differences in gear and player skill. Even the most overpowered class in maxed out gear can be taken down trivially if a skilled player is fighting an unequal opponent... but when two equally skilled (or unskilled as the case may be) players clash gear and class are the top factors followed by luck.

It's not really a question of who... when sins came out they auto became most unbalanced class and still are. It's not right that they made it so sins are unaffected by p.def charms because of their multi hit skills. It's not right sins have the most control out of all the classes and can't be controlled themselves (tidal). It's not right that sins can stealth out while being attacked and on top of it gain a spark instead of lose one. I have never considered any class op... except for sins. All other classes are quote balanced and typically when people mention the question "what destroyed pk" they will say sins. Stealth killing low gears and 1 shotting people of equal gear. I know many who quit because of how much damage sins do when they have equal gear.

tsyfall

devapathpain1229 wrote: »

It's not right that they made it so sins are unaffected by p.def charms because of their multi hit skills.

Sins are affected by pdef charms, just less. And all anyone needs to do is just block last hit of Elimination, which is easy to predict and even easier to react to:

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

I even found myself counting the hits and saving SoR or my defense charm for the final hit

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1686031

If Longknife can do it, so can you!

socean#3691

tsyfall wrote: »

Sins are affected by pdef charms, just less. And all anyone needs to do is just block last hit of Elimination, which is easy to predict and even easier to react to:

If Longknife can do it, so can you!

I think your biased as it does say you have a sin. The biggest threat of eliminate is the fact that it stuns along with op dmg and chances to zerk crit, sure you can ad early and block it as part of a fast reaction, but the stun is longer than ad. Sure you could faith but u will still take all of the op hits and have little genie energy left. Sure u can expel, but don't forget u will still be stunned because the skill already start which means they can just sleep u near the end of your expel. For some dumb reason the sleep attack bypasses expel and sleeps them anyways. Of course a sin won't face this problem as they have tidal and would most likely avoid any stuns or such. So don't dare say it's easy really the only thing we can rely on if a sin knows to sleep towards the end of expel is purify. That's assuming they are a caster. Purify is the only real chance. Sins are op

Zsw - Dreamweaver

devapathpain1229 wrote: »

I think your biased as it does say you have a sin.

That's a fallacy.

devapathpain1229 wrote: »

The biggest threat of eliminate is the fact that it stuns along with op dmg and chances to zerk crit

It doesn't stun.

devapathpain1229 wrote: »

sure you can ad early and block it as part of a fast reaction, but the stun is longer than ad.

It doesn't stun, and it doesn't last longer than AD.

devapathpain1229 wrote: »

Sure you could faith but u will still take all of the op hits and have little genie energy left.

Why would you faith it?

devapathpain1229 wrote: »

Sure u can expel, but don't forget u will still be stunned because the skill already start

It doesn't stun.

devapathpain1229 wrote: »

which means they can just sleep u near the end of your expel.

And now you have discovered the reason why you shouldn't throw out expel randomly.

devapathpain1229 wrote: »

For some dumb reason the sleep attack bypasses expel and sleeps them anyways.

It doesn't.

socean#3691

I ment cursed jail the other multi hit skill

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

That's a fallacy.



It doesn't stun.



It doesn't stun, and it doesn't last longer than AD.



Why would you faith it?



It doesn't stun.



And now you have discovered the reason why you shouldn't throw out expel randomly.



It doesn't.

What would u do op sin? I just knocked out all 3 things people say u can do against sins if a sin starts with cursed jail it's up to purify.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Cursed Jail doesn't hit hard, and you should aim to predict it with fortify anyway. If they do cursed jail AND elimination, then using expel is just fine actually, because they have no combo anymore so sleeping you won't achieve much. Same with AD or Faith. You could alternatively use badge and even tree of protection.

Also, cursed jail + elimination gives you an extremely high chance for purify to proc. So half the time. Purify WILL proc. If you run away far enough, then the skill is interrupted.

Countering elimination when you don't get cced depends entirely on class.

Classes with leap can simply use one of them, thereby interrupting it.
Clerics can put up plume shell or some other defensive skill
Venos can also use one of their many defense skills.
Seekers and barb can use double spark to resist most of its damage.
Mystics, just heal I guess? Not many people play this class.

If that fails, there's still a 33% chance of simply using a CC and interrupting the sin.

You can also use apothecary such as iron guard or dew.

And finally, elimination isn't a guaranteed kill if it doesn't zerk crit, and it loses most of its damage if your charm didn't tick yet. So sometimes you can just tank it.

With that said though, I won't deny that elimination is a pretty BS skill. Sins were just fine without NH skills.

Auerlius - Archosaur

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Cursed Jail doesn't hit hard, and you should aim to predict it with fortify anyway. If they do cursed jail AND elimination, then using expel is just fine actually, because they have no combo anymore so sleeping you won't achieve much. Same with AD or Faith. You could alternatively use badge and even tree of protection.

Also, cursed jail + elimination gives you an extremely high chance for purify to proc. So half the time. Purify WILL proc. If you run away far enough, then the skill is interrupted.

Countering elimination when you don't get cced depends entirely on class.

Which kills your genie for the other CC's they have, while with one click their chi is back and the CD is so low that they will recharge the skill before you recharge your defense.

Classes with leap can simply use one of them, thereby interrupting it.
Clerics can put up plume shell or some other defensive skill
Venos can also use one of their many defense skills.
Seekers and barb can use double spark to resist most of its damage.
Mystics, just heal I guess? Not many people play this class.

Vs. the OP zerk crits this doesn't usually work given even gear. Sage has an easier time than demon though....

If that fails, there's still a 33% chance of simply using a CC and interrupting the sin.

You can also use apothecary such as iron guard or dew.

Tried this, the recharge times are too long. As a sin one can just stealth cd and do it again. 33% of your skill working vs 100% chance of theirs working = bogus easy mode class

And finally, elimination isn't a guaranteed kill if it doesn't zerk crit, and it loses most of its damage if your charm didn't tick yet. So sometimes you can just tank it.

With that said though, I won't deny that elimination is a pretty BS skill. Sins were just fine without NH skills.

Tanking it is not an option for AA toons if all things are equal, but at least you can see for yourself what i have been saying all along. Now if you a die hard sin supporter can admit they went overkill with this bs update, imagine the rest of us.

Joe - Morai

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

Tried this, the recharge times are too long. As a sin one can just stealth cd and do it again. 33% of your skill working vs 100% chance of theirs working = bogus easy mode class

I one is not at least once 105 and does not posses 31 dectlvl decetion pots shouldn't even bother fighting sins at all.

If we are talking serious PvP that is. We have all means today to get to 105 in no time. in ~ 1 1/2 at max my stormbringer will be once 105 (105/103/102 I assume) so one can't say that it takes too much time, just effort.

So with detect potions stealth is no problem at all. It is even a disadvantage for the sin cause the sin never knows if you can see him or not so in preperation to it he has to play differently = no easy mode.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

I would still love to see somebody record themselves def charming elimination reliably even in 1vs1 setting. In group setting its not only pretty much all luck but likely a bad idea as def charms on autopot and reduced dps might very well outweight the chance of def charming elimination.

KuruTu - Harshlands

PWI has never been about balance and fact that Sin was broken in 1v1 since they released them didn't really affect Mass PvP/TW that much. The biggest issue is that sin is supposed to be class that is able to kill quick, but it's also fragile and can't take hits. They used to be like that back at APS to win time and actually made sense.
Now? Yes, they hit really hard and their skills make pdef charms almost useless. What is the biggest issue? It's how retardedly tanky they are, making them really OP in mass pk even. With spirit def pots and tidal that makes almost impossible to purge/CC them and ability to gain full Chi with 2 clicks, they can take so many hits aswell while doing insane damage by skills which do high damage, have low cooldowns and of course very low (or none) chi cost. And even if u manage to purge and CC them in tidal gap? Faith, hide like a little b*tch in stealth until they can put tidal and buffs on again; rinse and repeat.
Just search Rinc's channel on youtube, if you still insist on how balanced sins are.

socean#3691

KuruTu - Harshlands wrote: »

PWI has never been about balance and fact that Sin was broken in 1v1 since they released them didn't really affect Mass PvP/TW that much. The biggest issue is that sin is supposed to be class that is able to kill quick, but it's also fragile and can't take hits. They used to be like that back at APS to win time and actually made sense.
Now? Yes, they hit really hard and their skills make pdef charms almost useless. What is the biggest issue? It's how retardedly tanky they are, making them really OP in mass pk even. With spirit def pots and tidal that makes almost impossible to purge/CC them and ability to gain full Chi with 2 clicks, they can take so many hits aswell while doing insane damage by skills which do high damage, have low cooldowns and of course very low (or none) chi cost. And even if u manage to purge and CC them in tidal gap? Faith, hide like a little b*tch in stealth until they can put tidal and buffs on again; rinse and repeat.
Just search Rinc's channel on youtube, if you still insist on how balanced sins are.

That's what I said about Joe's video. He is a barb and the class he was fighting was a sin. How the heck was it fair that the sin not only did more damage than him, but also took less damage than him. Sins damage and defence is definitly ****. The most annoying thing is sins dont even need to shard defensively they can shard completely deity or dot because of how tanky they are. This deity sin on my server is tanky and deity sharded which means he hits very unfairly with eliminate, cursed jail, and life hunter. If a sin is josd heck it might be better if they pull catas in tw.

Infamous_me - Archosaur

devapathpain1229 wrote: »

If a sin is josd heck it might be better if they pull catas in tw.

or nah? b:laugh

Joe - Morai

devapathpain1229 wrote: »

That's what I said about Joe's video. He is a barb and the class he was fighting was a sin. How the heck was it fair that the sin not only did more damage than him, but also took less damage than him. Sins damage and defence is definitly ****. The most annoying thing is sins dont even need to shard defensively they can shard completely deity or dot because of how tanky they are. This deity sin on my server is tanky and deity sharded which means he hits very unfairly with eliminate, cursed jail, and life hunter. If a sin is josd heck it might be better if they pull catas in tw.

Sins usually do more dmg, but that highly depends on the built you use. Sins do have a 40 attack level buff...that really does quite a bit to push their dmg.

If I too would have been in equal gears (josd) then that sin would have dealt a huge chunk less dmg and if I'd have been in deities he would have gotten a huge chunk more dmg + I never stated that it was an equal fight xD

That sin got the advantage during the time the cideo was recorded so I lost quite often but I did win sometimes. Today where I'm even a slight bit better geared, I always win (we tested this already...when I was even weaker then now xD).

That video isn't really that great to make an assumption as to how balanced sins are compared to Barbs and if it's unfair or not simply because it was just for fun and not balanced.

Sins are not capable of pulling a cata, josd or not. Let 3 people seriously DD on any target (including that sin) and that sin will die in seconds. that is if the 3 people do not waste their time with useless debuffs/CCs and just dish out their strongest attacks.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

So many mad AA's. It burns doesn't it?

Auerlius - Archosaur

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So many mad AA's. It burns doesn't it?

what burns is so many people flock to what is easy. easy mode class=easy mode players=lower chances for any respectable pvp=dead pvp=how it is now. so while it's ok to dish out the smug comments from your ez chair think about this, would you be as sucessful with another class as your main? and if you put time and effort into a toon, wouldn't you want to see it be competitive with other toons of equal gear/level? or is that too much of a disadvantage for you?

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

Now if you a die hard sin supporter can admit they went overkill with this bs update, imagine the rest of us.

Not an excuse to just give up though. There are still some strategies to survive.

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

Which kills your genie for the other CC's they have, while with one click their chi is back and the CD is so low that they will recharge the skill before you recharge your defense.

That's why I suggest simply predicting cursed jail with fortify. That combined with purify clocking at 12% proc can go a long way in your survival. Expel should be used when you mess up, not spammed on every single elimination.

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

Vs. the OP zerk crits this doesn't usually work given even gear. Sage has an easier time than demon though....

It should work given equal gears actually, assuming the cleric is potting mp food and has an mp charm. At least long enough for purify to proc.

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

Tried this, the recharge times are too long. As a sin one can just stealth cd and do it again. 33% of your skill working vs 100% chance of theirs working = bogus easy mode class

In 1v1s, sins don't stealth. If they stealth then just refuse 1v1 and get friends to help if they're annoying.

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

Tanking it is not an option for AA toons if all things are equal

Tanking is an option depending on circumstances. For example, if elimination is used without spark or debuff while your hp is full, it is less likely to kill than say, double sparked while your hp is at half.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

what burns is so many people flock to what is easy. easy mode class=easy mode players=lower chances for any respectable pvp=dead pvp=how it is now. so while it's ok to dish out the smug comments from your ez chair think about this, would you be as sucessful with another class as your main? and if you put time and effort into a toon, wouldn't you want to see it be competitive with other toons of equal gear/level? or is that too much of a disadvantage for you?

I've successfully played every class to a somewhat competent level. At least I'm not sitting here complaining about something being 'OP'. Your bet you *** im gonna be smug. If you spent more time learning how to fight sins, your wouldn't have enough time to complain.

I play my sin mainly because it's the least competently played class on my server, and most people here don't know what a good sin is. Couple that with a borderline outright hate for the class, and you have people refusing to even use their sins in TW.

I love playing the under dog, but in a game like this there are abusive advatages to all of the classes. You can't make me feel bad for liking the class I play, but the difference between you and me is, im not gonna bother insulting you simply because you play a cleric. You are the worst kind of hypocrite.

Respectable is playing a class you like to play. It's not rocket science. I like this class, simple as that.

xtoraah

Auerlius, I know so many people that have learnt to fight against sins after the NH update. I'm not here to call you bad or claim anything like that, but there ARE ways to survive against them, especially as a cleric. I have suggested reviewing your playstyle, and looking at where you went wrong and where you die a lot then look for ways you could have survived in the instance, and I still suggest that.

Auerlius - Archosaur

xtoraah wrote: »

Auerlius, I know so many people that have learnt to fight against sins after the NH update. I'm not here to call you bad or claim anything like that, but there ARE ways to survive against them, especially as a cleric. I have suggested reviewing your playstyle, and looking at where you went wrong and where you die a lot then look for ways you could have survived in the instance, and I still suggest that.

k getting past that and The Dion's suggestions...i fully understand you can survive if you play fast and well enough. that was never my digruntle. it is what is and honestly it's a game.

why am i on here posting?

as soon as i came back people all over the server are complaining about not wanting to finish their toons and just make a sin. i wasn't trying to be specific...so go ahead and be smug (Dion, not you Torah), cause one way or another we will fade to dust and none if this will matter. what matter's is the now and enough folks are fed up and realize saying something here won't change anything. so i wirite...some of the things i have posted are directing from my thinking, some aren't.

torah when we spared i wasn't trying to win...i was trying to survive. that is also when i discovered how important the cards were. but that in and of itself also showed how ridiculously powerful those skills were.

guys, all i am saying is this, no insults no smugness no anything other than more thought could have been put into the design of the assassin class. WoW did so very effectively with the rogue, and even nerfed it when they had to. With the return of the original devs they should have access now to the original programming. these sin posts pop up more often and more frequently than any other class...it's for a reason. just change it already. make it so that people dont feel like they wasted their thime with other classes. it's just too easy vs when you have to struggle, to see the difference. if you can't see that then i guess we're done here.

PS: RL presented an opportunity that was honestly more challenging and rewarding than an online life here. that is what called me away. how the mods handle the post last time is what made me quit. torah you remember, complaint and all i kept fighting you til you were bored. win, lose so what...in life you gonna do both. some winning here some losing there and sometimes you get a trifecta of a winning loss that equals a draw (?) but it saddens me that i left the game for a few months, came back and within 15 minutes hearing some friends complain about how they wasted their time on their toon and shoulda made a sin, from the nubs to the 3r9 mystic or what have you....

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

*snip*.

I find most of those people don't know the first thing about the sin class. Or they are just bad at the game in general.

I know plenty of OP geared players that rolled a sin and thought they would roll the good sins because the class is 'ez'.

Easy to play, hard to master. Much like barbs, seekers, archer, clerics, mystics, and psy's. Most basic classes in this game. I don't call any of them better than the other, and they all have abusable gimmicks.

Ever tried to kill a jaded or def sharded cleric without GoF or SS? Nope, not gonna happen, especially not on a sin. My class has a lot of perk, i accept that. But don't tell me that the class is so broken that there is no way any of us could actually be skilled in this game. A lot of it has to do with gear, buffs, debuffs, etc. There are more factors than just your class, so why always resort to settling on that as a deciding factor?

I just don't get it.

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ever tried to kill a jaded or def sharded cleric without GoF or SS? Nope, not gonna happen, especially not on a sin. My class has a lot of perk, i accept that. But don't tell me that the class is so broken that there is no way any of us could actually be skilled in this game. A lot of it has to do with gear, buffs, debuffs, etc. There are more factors than just your class, so why always resort to settling on that as a deciding factor?

All servers should have azzazin's cleric with end-gear.
I wonder how many threads there would be about clerics being OP.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »

All servers should have azzazin's cleric with end-gear.
I wonder how many threads there would be about clerics being OP.

That kind of gear I'm sure exists in most servers, all +12 josd is not uncommon, and there has been a few QQ threads about clerics in 1v1 from other servers prior to NH update. Though I haven't seen clerics with that level of skill and experience play wise since azza.