Archer vs Other class skill comparison

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1016301


Someone should have a go at doing this kind of thread. b:avoidb:avoidb:avoid

ZentDreigon - Raging Tide

The link you posted is meant to compare the similarities mystics have with those other classes since mystics have some similar skills to other arcane classes.

There are no other archer classes (who use skills while using ranged weapons) in game so I'm not sure how your idea could get a go using the same principle of that thread.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

I suspect OP knows no other class has remotely as bad skills as archer does. We got couple of decent debuffs and skill procs but the damage addons and whatnots are just horrible. People complain how archer can just AA for win, I would actually complain how we have to AA as its not even real how crappy skill dmg we got.

Ps. Too lazy to swap on archer avatar.

ShawtyStar - Raging Tide

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1016301
Someone should have a go at doing this kind of thread. b:avoidb:avoidb:avoid

you should do it red haired archer lol

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

I suspect OP knows no other class has remotely as bad skills as archer does. We got couple of decent debuffs and skill procs but the damage addons and whatnots are just horrible. People complain how archer can just AA for win, I would actually complain how we have to AA as its not even real how crappy skill dmg we got.

Ps. Too lazy to swap on archer avatar.

I suspect you wouldnt know a joke when you saw one if it came up and slapped you in the face with a PWI forum post b:chuckle

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

I suspect you wouldnt know a joke when you saw one if it came up and slapped you in the face with a PWI forum post b:chuckle

I didnt feel it was needed to clarify as a joke. If you know Archer skills are crapstatic on so many levels, why would you ask for comparison for any other reason than a joke? Some sneaky QQ bait might fit the criteria too but I did feel I treated it as a joke.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Lightning Strike vs Great Cyclone.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

Awaken vs inner harmonyb:laughb:cryb:laugh

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Awaken vs inner harmonyb:laughb:cryb:laugh

Awaken much broken, sin only gets ~6 sparks more in the time it takes archer to do double awaken. Please nerf awaken or sins too weak, QQ.

Marengo - Lost City

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Someone should have a go at doing this kind of thread. b:avoidb:avoidb:avoid

What's the point comparing skills like that? There are differences in seemingly similar skills and each class has its own set of features, pros and cons of some skills in comparison to other classes are compensated by other abilities. I don't see how can this be informative or useful b:question
Example: yes, one of cleric's heals resembles one of mystic's.
Archer's stun can be compared with veno's stun.
What can you do with this information? Pretty much nothing.

Quilue - Sanctuary

It proves certain classes are better than others.

Veneir - Dreamweaver

Archers have PvE knockback, Mystics have PvP knockback.
Demon Serated Arrow reduces max HP by 12%, level 11 veno debuff reduces max HP by 25%.
Buffs with 5 minute cooldowns for chi versus skill with 15 second cooldown for a potential spark
etcetc

Do we need anything else at this rate
Archers are an inherently sexy class in games, that's what they have going for them. OTL

Marengo - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

It proves certain classes are better than others.

In what way does it prove it? b:chuckle Similar skills aren't even used in same combos because other skills, survivability, damage etc don't coincide. Looks like mystics' topic was created when casters were afraid that freshly implemented class of summoner, healer and dd at the same time would replace old ones and ppl were curious to investigate what it can do.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Archer's
Blazing Arrow
Mana　229.5
Channel　3.0　seconds
Cast　0.8　seconds
Cooldown　3.0　seconds
Chi Gained　10
Weapon　Ranged Weapons

Required Cultivation　Spiritual Initiate
Enchant your ammunition with fire, causing
all ranged weapon attacks to deal an
additional 40% Fire damage for 10 minutes.
Using this skill will remove you from Stealth.


Comparable to:
Barbarian's
Poison Fang
Requires Tiger Form
Mana　213
Channel　1.5　seconds
Cast　2.0　seconds
Cooldown　15.0　seconds
Chi Gained　10
Weapon　Axe, Poleaxe, Hammer or Polehammer

Required Cultivation　Aware of Principle
Coat your fangs and claws in poison, causing your attacks to deal
an additional 30% of weapon damage as Wood damage. Lasts 15 minutes.

Wizard's
Frostblade
Range　28.5　meters
Mana　450
Channel　0.8　seconds
Cast　1.0　seconds
Cooldown　3.0　seconds
Chi Gained　10
Weapon　Unarmed, Magic Instrument

Required Cultivation　Aware of Discord
Place an icy sheen on a squad member's weapon,
causing their normal attacks to deal 30% of your
base magic damage as extra Water damage for 15 minutes.

Comment: Archer's channel is longer, but has the shortest cast time. This means that archers have a better chance of canceling it in case he gets attacked in the middle of buffing himself. While Archer's buff is self cast only, a wizard's buff has the disadvantage of being useless to themselves. Archer's buff is also stronger than both Barbarian and Wizard's buff.

-

Archer's
Sharpened Tooth Arrow
Range　Ranged Attack
Mana　127.5
Channel　2.0　seconds
Cast　0.6　seconds
Cooldown　15.0　seconds
Chi Gained　12
Weapon　Ranged Weapons

Required Cultivation　Aware of Coalescence
Fire a cluster shot that blasts all enemies within 6
meters of the target with high-velocity shrapnel,
dealing base physical damage plus 2901.5 and impaling
them for 30 seconds, reducing their maximum Health by 16.0%.

Costs 1 unit of ammo.


Comparable to:
NOTHING!

Comment: Archers are the only class with a skill that can debuff maximum HP without sage/demon/79/100/morai skills.

-

Archer's
Aim Low
Range　Ranged Attack
Mana　167.0
Channel　1.0　seconds
Cast　0.6　seconds
Cooldown　15.0　seconds
Weapon　Ranged Weapons

Required Cultivation　Aware of Harmony
Focus all of your energy to aim and fire a single
shot, dealing base physical damage plus 3469.5. Has
a 90% chance to paralyze the target for 8.0 seconds.

Costs 1 unit of ammo.
Costs 1 Spark.


Comparable to:
Psychics's
Glacial Shards
Range　28.5　 Meters
Mana　337.5
Channel　1.0　 seconds
Cast　2.0　 seconds
Cooldown　8.0　 seconds
Chi Gained　15
Weapon　Soulsphere

Required Cultivation　Aware of Discord
Assault all enemies within 6 meters with razor-sharp
shards of ice. Deals base base magic damage plus
200% of weapon damage plus 2675.1 as Water damage.
Has a 60% chance to freeze targets for 4 seconds.

Seeker's
Heartseeker
Range　25　 meters
Mana　84.2
Channel　1.0 seconds
Cast　1.3　 seconds
Cooldown　15.0 seconds
Chi Gained　10
Weapon　Blade or Sword

Required Cultivation　Aware of Discord
Launch a projection of your weapon at a distant
foe, dealing base physical damage plus 100% of
weapon damage plus 2646.5 as Metal damage. Has a 70%
chance to immobilize the target for 8 seconds.

Cleric's
Silent Seal
Range　26.5　meters
Mana　337.5
Channel　1.0　seconds
Cast　1.0　seconds
Cooldown　20.0　seconds
Weapon　Unarmed, Magic Instruments

Required Cultivation　Aware of Discord
Manipulate the magic in the air to create a powerful
seal for 6.0 seconds. Reduces your Attack Rate
by 50% to stun an enemy for up to 16.8 seconds.

Costs 20 Chi.

Wizard's
Hailstorm
Range　28.5　meters
Mana　219.6
Channel　1.8　seconds
Cast　1.2　seconds
Cooldown　12.0　seconds
Chi Gained　5
Weapon　Unarmed, Magic Instrument

Required Cultivation　Spiritual Adept
Conjure a hailstorm to rain down on all enemies near the target.
Deals base magic damage plus 1794.9 as Water damage.
Has a 33% chance to freeze targets for 4.0 seconds.
Area increases with level.


Comment: While Archer's skill costs a spark and does not aoe, it is made up for by having the shortest channeling + casting time. It also has the highest success rate out of all the skills, except for cleric's. However, cleric's skill suffers from both chi cost as well as a debuff to themselves when used, which essentially costs 40 chi in total should they purify it. However, cleric's skill also suffers from randomness, which means that the freeze duration is not guaranteed. They also have the longest cooldown.

-

Archer's
Stunning Arrow
Range　Ranged Attack
Mana　225
Channel　1.5　seconds
Cast　0.6　seconds
Cooldown　15.0　seconds
Chi Gained　15
Weapon　Ranged Weapons

Required Cultivation　Aware of Discord
Fire a stunning shot at the target, dealing
base physical damage plus 1761.3. Has a 90%
chance to stun the target for 3 seconds.

Costs 1 unit of ammo.


Comparable to:
Venomancer's
Lucky Scarab
Range　25.5　meters
Mana　275.8
Channel　1.5　seconds
Cast　0.8　seconds
Cooldown　12.0　seconds
Chi Gained　15
Weapon　Unarmed, Magic Instruments

Required Cultivation　Aware of Coalescence
Throw a toxic scarab at the enemy, dealing
base magic damage plus 100% of weapon damage
plus 3416.9 as Wood damage. Has a 95% chance
to stun the target for 2 seconds.

Psychics's
Earth Vector
Range　28.5　 Meters
Mana　516
Channel　1.0　 seconds
Cast　1.0　 seconds
Cooldown　20.0　 seconds
Weapon　Soulsphere

Required Cultivation　Transcendent
Manipulate the earth's magnetic field to crush enemies
within 6 meters into the ground. Deals base magic damage
plus 100% of weapon damage plus 3461.7 as Earth damage.
Has a 85% chance to stun enemies for 6.0 seconds.

Costs 1 Spark.

Comment: Compared to Venomancers, archer's skill has a longer cooldown, lower damage and lower success rate. However, this is made up for by having a shorter cast time, longer duration, and better range. Compared to Psychics, Archer's skill has a longer channel, lower damage, shorter duration and does not aoe. However, this is made up for by having a shorter cast time, faster cooldown, no spark usage, better range, and higher success rate.

-

Archer's
Wings of Grace
Mana　100
Channel　1.0　seconds
Cast　3.0　seconds
Cooldown　30.0　seconds
Weapon　Any

Required Cultivation　Transcendent
Focus all of your energy into your wings, becoming immune
to all effects that reduce movement speed for 15 seconds.
Reduces all incoming damage by 30% and increases speed by
30%. You are immune to damage while channeling this skill.

Costs 1 Spark.


Comparable to:
Blademaster's
Will of the Bodhisattva
Will of the Bodhisattva

Mana　100
Channel　Instant
Cooldown　60.0　seconds
Weapon　Melee weapons

Required Cultivation　Transcendent
Focus your vigor to move as gracefully as a dragon
in flight. Increases your speed by 100%
and your Evasion while moving by 100%, and grants
immunity to movement-impairing effects. Lasts 15 seconds.

Costs 1 Spark.

Barbarian's
Violent Triumph
Mana　100
Channel　Instant
Cooldown　60.0　seconds
Weapon　Melee Weapons

Required Cultivation　Aware of Vacuity
Use your willpower to resist even the most determined
of foes. Makes you immune to stun, freeze, and other
effects that affect your movement. Lasts 10 seconds.

Costs 50 Chi.

Assassin's
Maze Steps
Mana　100
Channel　Instant
Cooldown　90.0　 seconds
Weapon　Daggers

Required Cultivation　Aware of Discord
Use your knowledge of navigating treacherous coral
reefs to increase your speed by 100%. Also makes you
immune to stun and immobilize effects. Lasts 10 seconds.

Costs 1 Spark.

Comment: Archer's skill suffers from having a channeling time. However, this is made up for by the fact that archers also get a 3 second immunity from using this skill, making it a life saver if there's only 3 more seconds until charm tick. Archers also benefit from having the shortest cooldown of only 30 seconds. While Archer's skill have lower speed boost than Assassin and Blademaster's skill. However, Barbarian's skill does not have a speed boost at all. Archer's skill also last longer than Barbarian's and Assassin's skill.

Skills I have yet to compare to:
Barrage of Arrows - One of the best, if not the best aoe skill.
Stormrage Eagleon - Yes, this can be compared.
Deadly Shot - Also comparable.
Winged Shell - Good candidates for this too.
Wings of Protection - Also a viable comparison.
Metal skill dd sequence - can be compared to several other classes' dd sequence.
Physical skill dd sequence - can be compared to several other classes' dd sequence.
Melee Skills - can be compared to several other skills too.
Masteries - self explanatory.
79/100/morai skills - Various good candidates.

I hope you're happy.

Verenor - Morai

Only a quick read-through sofar but some fun observations:
- Aim low: the only skill that costs chi (full spark) when all other root-skills give chi.
I still consider the Aoe and cooldown-advantage the Psy's have to be outperforming Aim low: 15sec CD / 90% succesrate Vs 8sec CD and 60% succesrate, in theory Psy's have a higher chance of rooting someone in 16sec time than Archers

- Forgot Sin's Tackling Slash in that comparison: guaranteed 9sec root + 50 chi gained on 15sec CD

Although I would personally have taken in account lv11 skill-effects since nearly everyone will go demon/sage skills eventually, I can understand why Sage Rib Strike was left out in the HP reduction section. It is a fairly unique case for Archers.

Appreciate this overview and looking forward to the upcoming onesb:laugh Never realised Archers gained the highest elemental damage buff (although it's still quite useless in DD-terms b:surrender

Quilue - Sanctuary

Marengo - Lost City wrote: »

In what way does it prove it? b:chuckle Similar skills aren't even used in same combos because other skills, survivability, damage etc don't coincide. Looks like mystics' topic was created when casters were afraid that freshly implemented class of summoner, healer and dd at the same time would replace old ones and ppl were curious to investigate what it can do.

Lightning Strike vs Cyclone comparison?

Look at cooldown, chan/cast time at endgame, and damage, then look at what other skills archers have against heavies as opposed to cleric.

You don't see clerics take out endgame heavies spamming Cyclone in various forms with debuffs inserted in, yet archers pretty much have to do just that - except every other attack they have is a lot slower than Strike and they have a lot less skills available for setup.

On the other hand, robes with -chan at endgame can fire off bigger nukes much, much faster. Clerics in Violet Dance can fire off Cyclone with astounding DPS, elemental to boot, putting them way above archers in the "you are screwed if you leave me to DPS" role.

So you are right in saying the damage doesn't coincide, archers' are vastly inferior. You are also right in saying other skills don't coincide, archers' other choices are vastly inferior.

Archers are no means supposed to be equal to clerics against heavies, they are supposed to be jack-of-all trades, but the gap widens such that by endgame, archers' threat with metal attacks have become extremely irrelevant, especially if an opponent happens to be fully buffed.

Comparing simple skills like that gives perspective when thinking about the rest of the class' skillset.
(Another example might be Sage Frost vs Gush - why archer "perks" are such ripoffs)

What I would want? Less cd on Lightning Strike. It's not much better than Cyclone (wait it actually isn't better at all). What archer's skillset tells me is that Strike should at least be the equivalent of a basic elemental attack with low cd, considering the debuff and AOE have much longer chan times.

It would at least give you a basic metal attack sooner in a typical cycle of metal attacks so people don't have to choose between such hideous choices as

wait

or

use a physical attack

or

use Thunderous.

Or we can just make this too easy and do a comparison of something like...

Kiss of Snake vs Elimination.

Sint - Harshlands

Archers have gotten shafted in every expansion since 2009.

Combo possiblities on all other classes exceed archers. Archers have no nuke, no dps, no significant debuff.

The lack of a nuke on archers means we essentially have to pray for no procs against any r9rr mage (except stunningly moronic psychics who can occasionally be bypassed with take aim.)

Archers are the only non-mage class not to get zerk (we got purge, instead. The only non-mage unable to switch to a purge weap IS able to zerk crit magic attacks, though, so seekers have that going for them, which is nice).

Just about all melee classes now have a respectable anti-kiting arsenal, which means archers lose their top tactic.

Defensive options on an archer all boil down to "antistun and gtfo" or simply "gtfo" (or shell if you're getting nuked in a very amateuristic way) which would be somewhat kinda nice if we couldn't get stunned through antistun (stopping me from moving is not a movement status debuff, duh). Also, the new wiz stun seems to have a bug that makes it not cancel if you leave range, and both hits apparently land at the same time (though that may just be my lag)

Finally, archer dmg/def is simply unimpressive these days. It used to be so that archers were hard to fight because you would take considerable damage bridging the range gap, an advantage offset by archers' virtual lack of control beyond that point (3 seconds of maybe stun do not control make, and getting into melee range will make the acher completely useless.) On the def side of things, Since I take bypass-range damage from zerk crits (full +10 EA, no jades, fighting people with +10-12 weaps) I am forced to be extremely careful. If I get caught in, say, a BM's stun, I basically have to genie out of it after a few hits because I'm risking a charm bypass if the BM gets a zerk crit, something I have no way to predict.

Similarly, and again I'm not sure how it works out at full endgame, but the SoG combo on clerics is literally GG unless you have a genie to counter it or your def makes it so s/he can't possibly bypass you. This is rather obviously harder for archers than it is for anyone else, given LA defs.

On the skill comparison, I think comparing Vector to Stunning Arrow is disingenious. Vector resembles Mountain Seize and DBB a lot more closely than it does Stunning Arrow. Vector also ends up being roughly as successful as SA when you account for the fact that Vector cannot miss. For the cleric immobilize, while it IS random, you can basically count on it lasting longer than an archer's, and I wasn't aware clerics were terribly concerned about attack rate reduction, so I don't see why they'd bother to purify it, though I could be wrong.

Quilue - Sanctuary

To me, the closest thing archers have to big fat damage (that every other class has) is a 3 sparked Barraged on a double wave. That's at least 16k on the fully buffed, best geared heavies out there, with 16k to come before 3 spark expires. If you purge that could actually kill somebody.

ZTP combos are also decent when the opportunity presents itself...but it takes a damn pill and is extremely situational.

To rack up serious damage with archer is maddeningly expensive...if other classes were to use that kind of resources, they would...do much more damage.

I would say Aim Low is a better comparison to Vector just because they both cost spark. Then again it becomes too easy.

Chance to miss vs no chance to miss
**** damage vs better damage
Single target vs multi-target
Freeze vs Stun

There's also the Whisper Shot vs Smack, both 18 range skills and one is laughably worse than the other...