Paralyze Status and how to balance it.

Zanryu - Lothranis

Hello everyone, there's been a lot of uproar about the Paralyze skill lately and I'd like to suggest a few changes to the status.

Paralyze seems to mainly be around as a counter to Purify Spell, however it's proven to unbalance quite a few things as the status has only 2 extremely costly counters. Full immunity or physical immunity, both of which are extremely costly requiring apothecary or large amounts of genie energy to be used.

These are the changes I propose:

Purify Spell:

First and foremost, I don't believe Paralyze can be fixed without changing Purify Spell as well. There's one simple change I believe needs to be made in order to open the doorway for that to happen, and the best part is it doesn't alter how Purify Spell is used or its effectiveness.

Combine the speed boost and anti stun into one unique icon. The effects remain the exact same, however due to the new icon it would no longer overwrite other anti stun effects. The speed boost would still cap at 15m/s, even if stacked with a Charger Orb or other speed boosting effects.

Paralyze:

Paraylze. The thing many players have come to despise due to its incredible effect and inability to be countered by conventional methods. I imagine some of you are wondering what the change to Purify Spell I proposed has to do with anything, but worry not, this is where I explain it. Now, let's address the changes I want to see for Paralyze:

[*]Alter Paralyze to bypass only Purify Spell's anti stun. Anti stun will resist it.
This allows Purify Spell to retain its original purpose while allowing Paralyze to be countered through proper use of control resisting skills.


[*]Alter Paralyze to allow Fortify to resist, alter Badge to be able to break it.
This serves to allow Paralyze to be countered by genies as well, preventing the target from being unable to do anything after the status has land and allowing them to retaliate.


[*]Alter Paralyze to bypass Tidal Protection, Sage Blade Affinity, and Tiger leap.
This is mainly to balance Assassins out a bit, though I believe it should work on each of these effects. While Paralyze is currently broken, the idea of a stun above stuns is good. It should flat out be unstoppable, however I do believe that it should bypass these skills. In bypassing these skills, it can put the classes that use them in the same situation as everyone else. They will either have to use their genie or anti control skills to resist or escape the status. This means they can no longer lurk around with status protection up while being able to conserve their genie, unlike the other classes in the game who must constantly use it to survive. This adds more value to the Paralyze Status in both group and 1v1 PvP, allowing targets with the status granted by those skills to be locked down and dealt with more efficiently.


[*]Retain Paralyze's ability to resist purify.
Another important aspect of Paralyze is the inability to be purified through conventional methods. While specific anti stun and stun breaks should resist it, I feel Paralyze should resist being purified. This allows the status to retain usefulness in group PvP as the target will have to use their genie or anti stuns in order to get past it, rather than simply having it purified. Forcing cooldowns is an important aspect of every type of PvP, and I feel Paralyze has the ability to do that without being completely broken.


[*]Retain Paralyze's ability to overlap stuns.
This allows for tighter, more threatening stunlocks. A regular stunlock from a Blademaster has a small gap that an instant anti stun can be used to resist the next stun in the chain. As well as that, the lock is predictable and a well timed genie skill will break it as well. Having paralyze overlap stuns allows for the lock to be a little less predictable and allows the Blademaster to alter their lock depending on what their opponent does during the fight. This allows the Blademaster to bait genies or cooldowns and instead of only relying on a traditional stunluck they have options to work with. This also allows them to have a good stunlock without having to use Whirlwind+Smack or Occult Ice, both of which are resisted fairly easily through the use of a well timed Fortify.


These are the changes I feel should be made to Paralyze, as well as Purify Spell. I feel that each change listed above both removes the sheer unbalance when it comes to the status, as well as gives it value in the game. I personally can't say I like the idea of my stunlock being broken as easily now as in the past, but Paralyze is a broken status. I absolutely love it, don't get me wrong, but somewhere down the road someone playing a class with a broken skill or status has to be able to acknowledge it. And that starts now. Paralyze is broken, it needs a change. If you agree with my changes I'd love to hear why, and if you feel something else should be done I'd love to hear that. If you feel I'm wrong, let me know why.

XXHotXx - Morai

while i do agree paralyze needs a rework in mechanics or a nerf in its spammability

i dont think purify would need a nerf, i mean there were already counters to purify (and we talking about mass pvp, because in 1on1 it just wouldnt proc)

counters such purge, sog, transposition, reel in, various disarms etch also i believe the antistun part of the skill lasts 1-2 seconds less than the speed bonus, thus you can gap close and land a CC

and imo there are other way more overpowered features that would need a nerf such sage tidal or cornered beast...

i believe would be legit to introduce a genie skill with a cost similar to badge \ remove paral. \ will surge etch...

that would remove and cleanse just a paralyze proc in the same way faith would do for the other CCs

Zanryu - Lothranis

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

while i do agree paralyze needs a rework in mechanics or a nerf in its spammability

i dont think purify would need a nerf, i mean there were already counters to purify (and we talking about mass pvp, because in 1on1 it just wouldnt proc)

Purify Spell is in no way being nerfed. The only change is to its icon.

counters such purge, sog, transposition, reel in, various disarms etch also i believe the antistun part of the skill lasts 1-2 seconds less than the speed bonus, thus you can gap close and land a CC

I don't understand this, but I think you're trying to say Purify Spell has counters, those being SoG, Purge, Transposition, Reel In, and disarms? Those aren't counters, not truly. Purify Spell has free reign against most of those. Purge is unlikely to happen unless an Archer gets lucky, as Venos and Melees will have a hard time staying that close. SoG reduces their damage taken and once they're out of it they can go about their way. Disarm only works for 10 seconds max and requires group focus in most cases.

and imo there are other way more overpowered features that would need a nerf such sage tidal or cornered beast...

My suggestion serves to at least reduce Tidal Protection's effectiveness while also giving more value to the Paralyze status.

i believe would be legit to introduce a genie skill with a cost similar to badge \ remove paral. \ will surge etch...

That also works.

that would remove and cleanse just a paralyze proc in the same way faith would do for the other CCs

such quote very reply

Eoria - Harshlands

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

i dont think purify would need a nerf, i mean there were already counters to purify (and we talking about mass pvp, because in 1on1 it just wouldnt proc)

If you actually read it, it's not nerfing purify. It's just turning it into a different icon.


Anyway, I can agree to Zan's suggestion.

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

I'm favorable: What Zanryu is suggesting is nothing more than a nerf to the new "OP" paralyze effect, making it only work against Purify Spell (Which is the reason they were created in the first place)

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

[*]Retain Paralyze's ability to overlap stuns.
This allows for tighter, more threatening stunlocks. A regular stunlock from a Blademaster has a small gap that an instant anti stun can be used to resist the next stun in the chain.

What? You never seen a perfect lock?

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

What? You never seen a perfect lock?

From what I understand you can just vacuity powder before being approached and bam 20s nearly imune to stun locks.

As for "bypass tidal protection" Im neutral: I don't ever use tidal protection against barbarians anyways and tidal protection is already able to 50% counter each and every bm's stun/freeze, so, I don't think that would underpower sins, maybe, that would give the touch of balance the game needs.

Zanryu - Lothranis

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

What? You never seen a perfect lock?

There's no "perfect" lock without having something that overlaps the stun. Instant is faster than anything with a channeling time, the only reason it wouldn't go off would be if the person using the instant skill has ping issues. Roar>Skills>Drake's Bash can be used to stunlock without any outside cc, but that type of a lock can be broken by instant anti stun skills because of the extremely small gap it has. Spam click your skill and pray for good ping. Oh, and that type of lock is very easily stopped by Fortify.

A perfect lock involves Occult Ice or the Smack+Whirlwind combo, as it leaves no gap due to overlapping the stun.

...Even if Paralyze is broken I still can't help but hate the idea of being made completely worthless for 20 seconds by a Vacuity. Struggle so real.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

There's no "perfect" lock without having something that overlaps the stun. Instant is faster than anything with a channeling time, the only reason it wouldn't go off would be if the person using the instant skill has ping issues. Roar>Skills>Drake's Bash can be used to stunlock without any outside cc, but that type of a lock can be broken by instant anti stun skills because of the extremely small gap it has. Spam click your skill and pray for good ping. Oh, and that type of lock is very easily stopped by Fortify.

A perfect lock involves Occult Ice or the Smack+Whirlwind combo, as it leaves no gap due to overlapping the stun.

"Instant" is not instant. If your lock is timed perfectly, ping does not matter. I presume you know the trick, so repeat the experiment a few times and go see.

Desdi - Sanctuary

I have to say that I like your ideas.

I'd honestly be happy if Purify proc had its own icon..as a Demon Venomancer I over overwrite the speed boost because of Fox Form. Sometimes by accident, sometimes because I just have to swap forms etc. Purify Proc also messes around with Demon Summer Sprint and once I've used that skill and my weapon happens to proc then Summer Sprint was kinda wasted..it really annoys me when that happens.

The Paralyze change sounds pretty reasonable too. I want either it not being purify-able but be resisted by anti-stuns or ignoring anti-stuns but be purify-able (but the latter would make it pointless as a counter to purify proc weapons).

Zanryu - Lothranis

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

"Instant" is not instant. If your lock is timed perfectly, ping does not matter. I presume you know the trick, so repeat the experiment a few times and go see.

Or do I? b:avoid

opkossy

This would be perfect, honestly.

That way Paralyze can still counter purify spell like it was intended to... without **** over everyone who DOESN'T have purify spell in the process. Which is a thing that I've always disliked about the thing, even if it's come to my benefit.

Azura - Lost City

Well those are good suggetions. My idea was nerfing everything. Make paralize a normal stun, and purify would be a real purify with a 2 second anti-stun with no speed buff.

However seeing how PW will never just step back, your idea is something they could actually follow.

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I have to say that I like your ideas.

I'd honestly be happy if Purify proc had its own icon..as a Demon Venomancer I over overwrite the speed boost because of Fox Form. Sometimes by accident, sometimes because I just have to swap forms etc. Purify Proc also messes around with Demon Summer Sprint and once I've used that skill and my weapon happens to proc then Summer Sprint was kinda wasted..it really annoys me when that happens.

... and it's worse when you waste sinergy

tsyfall

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

There's no "perfect" lock without having something that overlaps the stun. Instant is faster than anything with a channeling time, the only reason it wouldn't go off would be if the person using the instant skill has ping issues. Roar>Skills>Drake's Bash can be used to stunlock without any outside cc, but that type of a lock can be broken by instant anti stun skills because of the extremely small gap it has. Spam click your skill and pray for good ping. Oh, and that type of lock is very easily stopped by Fortify.

A perfect lock involves Occult Ice or the Smack+Whirlwind combo, as it leaves no gap due to overlapping the stun.

...Even if Paralyze is broken I still can't help but hate the idea of being made completely worthless for 20 seconds by a Vacuity. Struggle so real.

Not exactly sure why a perfect lock is even necessary. Ping issues are always present. It doesn't even matter if a player has 0 ping because their Google Fiber has somehow bypassed the speed of light: the server still needs maybe .1 second to respond. The tolerance for error is very low but definitely reachable. Even with ping around ~80 ms on rare occasions, I'm unable to cast an instant skill (apoth, leap, etc) in between low-error-timed stunlocks, even though technically speaking, they're not "perfect."

It's the same mechanic behind allowing assassins to stealthkill without even appearing on the damage log. We need to get quantum computing already...

Although it wouldn't even really matter anyway, would it, considering it's impossible to make a new icon that has different effects but still doesn't stack?

Good suggestion, though. First one I agree with. Especially since assassins won't even care that a BM can Drake Bash them through Tidal, if they still have half a brain.

Zanryu - Lothranis

tsyfall wrote: »

Not exactly sure why a perfect lock is even necessary. Ping issues are always present. It doesn't even matter if a player has 0 ping because their Google Fiber has somehow bypassed the speed of light: the server still needs maybe .1 second to respond. The tolerance for error is very low but definitely reachable. Even with ping around ~80 ms on rare occasions, I'm unable to cast an instant skill (apoth, leap, etc) in between low-error-timed stunlocks, even though technically speaking, they're not "perfect."

It's the same mechanic behind allowing assassins to stealthkill without even appearing on the damage log. We need to get quantum computing already...

Although it wouldn't even really matter anyway, would it, considering it's impossible to make a new icon that has different effects but still doesn't stack?

Good suggestion, though. First one I agree with. Especially since assassins won't even care that a BM can Drake Bash them through Tidal, if they still have half a brain.

Wayne brought it up, not me. Those stunlocks can be broken, a fair amount of times instant skills will go off before the stun finishes. Of course, the option of Fortify remains.

Technically it'd be a different effect as the speed boost and anti stun would be rolled into one, rather than the two seperate effects Purify Spell grants now. It'd have the same relationship stun and paralyze have, with them both having roughly the same effect, however neither will overwrite the other.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Okay, if you want to test it, try it with the mob Dusk Shadow. This mob appears in TT when you try to lure a boss through the door before the door opens. This for sure used to appear in 3-3, I don't know if it still does these days. (Make sure you max range it, or it will kill you instead of locking you).

This mob performs a perfect lock. You will not be able to use any skill/apoth, instant or not, regardless of your ping. The only way you'll get out is with genie, or if the stun fails since it's not a 100% stun chance.

This mob is timed perfectly so the next stun comes in as soon as the previous one wears off.

While it is true that mobs have an advantage being server side and all, players can still perform it with good timing. Your stun lands right after channeling, but before casting. So time your stun in such a way that it finishes channeling right as your previous stun wears off. This implies that you must begin channeling your stun before the stun icon goes off. If your timing is good enough, you will get the same effect.

And yes, I'm aware that genies counters it regardless, and you don't really have to time stuns anymore with the new Primal stun. Eventually it will be one of those forgotten art like the skill effect glitch. But still, it has been possible since the game was first made; and maybe it will become useful to you still. Good luck.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

... and it's worse when you waste sinergy

Yeah that too. Kinda slipped my mind because I almost never use it for the anti-stun. Mostly use it in PvE to boost my pets' DD.