Any Changes?

Skite - Lost City

I haven't been on in a couple of months since shortly after the release of horizons, so has anything really changed for the wizzy class (or the game at all)?

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

ask XxHotxX, he can explain better than me

(and also changes coming too)

XXHotXx - Morai

Skite - Lost City wrote: »

I haven't been on in a couple of months since shortly after the release of horizons, so has anything really changed for the wizzy class (or the game at all)?

what changed for wizards uhm...

if you arent endgame, reroll an assassin

well we are still tanky, but our damage had been consistently nerfed

to give you an idea,

sage sins have better survivability than us, sage sins have better dph\dps than us

purify proc got an hard counter with the new paralyze, that is also spammable from barbs,

now our damage per hit is average, since at endgame all the arcane classes beat us in terms of base magical attack value

our damage per second is still not viable cause of our highest chann+cast times

our debuffs are nerfed by more than half, and with next patch they will be nerfed by roughly 80% (undine, spark)

if you want to kill anything, you need to heavily outgear targets... this is what wizard is at the moment

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

what changed for wizards uhm...

if you arent endgame, reroll an assassin

well we are still tanky, but our damage had been consistently nerfed

to give you an idea,

sage sins have better survivability than us, sage sins have better dph\dps than us

purify proc got an hard counter with the new paralyze, that is also spammable from barbs,

now our damage per hit is average, since at endgame all the arcane classes beat us in terms of base magical attack value

our damage per second is still not viable cause of our highest chann+cast times

our debuffs are nerfed by more than half, and with next patch they will be nerfed by roughly 80% (undine, spark)

if you want to kill anything, you need to heavily outgear targets... this is what wizard is at the moment

also demon sin have better dps/dph because of rage damage and nearly perma crit

Skite - Lost City

Well, sad to hear that undine is being debuffed. I liked that skill. b:surrender

Otherwise seems that everything is same old same old. We get good stuff, other classes get better stuff... Eh.

XXHotXx - Morai

Skite - Lost City wrote: »

Well, sad to hear that undine is being debuffed. I liked that skill. b:surrender

Otherwise seems that everything is same old same old. We get good stuff, other classes get better stuff... Eh.

i believe we would just need 1 good skill to bring wizards back to the scene,

i would like to see a merge primal skill between wellspring and sutra,

1 spark cost, no channelling for 12 seconds, 1000% mana increase b:pleased

junesoo

Undine Strike should gain a couple of extra features, additional 3m range and making it deal at least 25% base damage instead of that tiny drop of damage and should they also make the status effects re-applicable, they could change the effects of Sage D.P./G.S. (two outdated skills) to match Undine Strike.

No changes should be made to the debuff effects because wizards should not be highly ranked in terms of debuffs or going solo and non of the current buffs have increased, it was made to scale accordingly with cleric's magic res. buff and U.S. is a low cost skill.

However they could use another debuff in their arsenal that is not as costly as Ice Prison (which needs a minor tweak as well) but definitely not as cheap as U.S.

If they get a debuff that work similarly to the way those PVE debuffs seekers have but at a small fraction of their effects, it will definitely make Wizard more interesting rather than overpowered. This will only replace the lousy option wizards have today and that is to rely on their genie for extra debuffs.

Damage-wise they should get a reasonable increase to the current fixed damage add-on like Psychics, which isn't much to ask for because Psychics' get lower cast times on top of damage tweak.

Channeling, cast or cool-down times are best left as they are because those are unique characteristics of a wizard.

With that said their next tier of spells are severely outdated, SS, DP & GS. They need to double their current fixed damage add-on if they do not increase their weapon damage add-on.

As for the highest tier of spells, BT should get the same % of the current fixed damage add-on upgrade as whatever the basic spells gets to scale accordingly so it won't result in anything significant as channel/cast/cool-down remain untouched. However BIDS & MS surely could use a bigger boost but not to the extend of twice as much current fixed damage add-on.

It's not much to ask for even if wizards want double or triple the current fix damage add-on or get extra weapon damage added on most skills because they still won't compare to something like a skill that offers like 200-300% base damage at almost zero cost. Even 150% base damage will be nice, for a caster, it will deal approximately 30% more damage than a basic Gush at end-game.

XXHotXx - Morai

junesoo wrote: »

Undine Strike should gain a couple of extra features, additional 3m range and making it deal at least 25% base damage instead of that tiny drop of damage and should they also make the status effects re-applicable, they could change the effects of Sage D.P./G.S. (two outdated skills) to match Undine Strike.

No changes should be made to the debuff effects because wizards should not be highly ranked in terms of debuffs or going solo and non of the current buffs have increased, it was made to scale accordingly with cleric's magic res. buff and U.S. is a low cost skill.

However they could use another debuff in their arsenal that is not as costly as Ice Prison (which needs a minor tweak as well) but definitely not as cheap as U.S.

If they get a debuff that work similarly to the way those PVE debuffs seekers have but at a small fraction of their effects, it will definitely make Wizard more interesting rather than overpowered. This will only replace the lousy option wizards have today and that is to rely on their genie for extra debuffs.

Damage-wise they should get a reasonable increase to the current fixed damage add-on like Psychics, which isn't much to ask for because Psychics' get lower cast times on top of damage tweak.

Channeling, cast or cool-down times are best left as they are because those are unique characteristics of a wizard.

With that said their next tier of spells are severely outdated, SS, DP & GS. They need to double their current fixed damage add-on if they do not increase their weapon damage add-on.

As for the highest tier of spells, BT should get the same % of the current fixed damage add-on upgrade as whatever the basic spells gets to scale accordingly so it won't result in anything significant as channel/cast/cool-down remain untouched. However BIDS & MS surely could use a bigger boost but not to the extend of twice as much current fixed damage add-on.

It's not much to ask for even if wizards want double or triple the current fix damage add-on or get extra weapon damage added on most skills because they still won't compare to something like a skill that offers like 200-300% base damage at almost zero cost. Even 150% base damage will be nice, for a caster, it will deal approximately 30% more damage than a basic Gush at end-game.

i agree...

if they dont want to fix debuffs to restore wiz DPH role, if they dont want to give us DPS skills...

they have to majorly increase the damage added by wizard skills, and for majorly increase i am talking about 200% base damage for each one of our skills and 300% for our ultimates (bt bd ms), to at least be able to match in numbers the damage output of an assassin (life hunter 200%, elimination 320%)

also our base damage is lowest compared to other arcane classes, and we are the ****** wizards...we are the DDs, the god.d.amn nukers...

i mean in which game wizards deal less damage than effing clerics\mistycs healer\support classes? xD seriously its ****

junesoo

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

i agree...

if they dont want to fix debuffs to restore wiz DPH role, if they dont want to give us DPS skills...

they have to majorly increase the damage added by wizard skills, and for majorly increase i am talking about 200% base damage for each one of our skills and 300% for our ultimates (bt bd ms), to at least be able to match in numbers the damage output of an assassin (life hunter 200%, elimination 320%)

also our base damage is lowest compared to other arcane classes, and we are the ****** wizards...we are the DDs, the god.d.amn nukers...

i mean in which game wizards deal less damage than effing clerics\mistycs healer\support classes? xD seriously its ****

Nah it's not THAT bad at the moment. Wizards do deal the least DPS IF we look at skills that do not cost chi or have 30 or more seconds cool-down.

But even with the skills that will eventually bump up a Wizard's overall DPS and utility of good DPS or DPH, they do not get to climb up the ladder too much or often enough. These skills either cost too much chi (ES, BT, BIDS, MS), take 30 sec (BT, BIDS, MS & FF) to one minute (ES) to cool-down or take too long to cast (BT, BIDS, MS).

As you can see most of these skills have 3/4 of all the cons they could possibly have.

200% base damage for a basic spell will be imbalance. But I do think the real update wizards need are the medium tier skills like DP, GS, SS or even FF though it's new.

DP, GS or SS were meant to be used in conjecture with ES and are for situational usage, so you can't have it give the same DPS as basic spells. Basically they have higher returns from channel reduction in general. But it needs to be some where between 2/3 to 3/4 of the DPS of basic spells atm it is only around 1/2. This means their damage formula will need to be 160-180% base damage or 150% base + 100-300% weapon or 100% base + 300% weapon + 12-20k. The latter sounds more appropriate.

XXHotXx - Morai

junesoo wrote: »

Nah it's not THAT bad at the moment. Wizards do deal the least DPS IF we look at skills that do not cost chi or have 30 or more seconds cool-down.

But even with the skills that will eventually bump up a Wizard's overall DPS and utility of good DPS or DPH, they do not get to climb up the ladder too much or often enough. These skills either cost too much chi (ES, BT, BIDS, MS), take 30 sec (BT, BIDS, MS & FF) to one minute (ES) to cool-down or take too long to cast (BT, BIDS, MS).

As you can see most of these skills have 3/4 of all the cons they could possibly have.

200% base damage for a basic spell will be imbalance. But I do think the real update wizards need are the medium tier skills like DP, GS, SS or even FF though it's new.

DP, GS or SS were meant to be used in conjecture with ES and are for situational usage, so you can't have it give the same DPS as basic spells. Basically they have higher returns from channel reduction in general. But it needs to be some where between 2/3 to 3/4 of the DPS of basic spells atm it is only around 1/2. This means their damage formula will need to be 160-180% base damage or 150% base + 100-300% weapon or 100% base + 300% weapon + 12-20k. The latter sounds more appropriate.

nope i believe the last option would break the game @ low-mid gears, and will have low returns at endgame, while adding base damage increase will just make the wizard damage scale with its level and gears giving a fair damage boost @ all gears\level range...

i would be more up for the 180%+ base damage for the mid tier skills, but solid 300% on our ultis, else our class wouldnt make sesne

also its not just because of the high channelling times that we cant dps,

its the fact that at the highest channelling times we got the highest cast times too, and besides FF we dont have any "multiple hits skill", so we just cant DPS someone down if they wont cut cast times...
and yes then there is cooldown matter,

seeing Elimination with 15 secs cooldown 320% base damage, or life hunter 200% base damage for no channelling no cooldown no chi costs,

when the only thing we have that gets close in damage to an elimination is a 3spark blade tempest that is circa 10 seconds to land it for 500 chi cost depleting apo cd + ulti cd = 120 +30 secs... its really non sense

also one question... we have this skill Manifest Virtue, it should improve our base magic attack by 1% of wizard mana value, tho it doesnt do that and i am not understanding the maths behind this skill...
if it adds 1% of weapon damage, then the skill was bugged since years,

if not wtf does this skill do?

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

nope i believe the last option would break the game @ low-mid gears, and will have low returns at endgame, while adding base damage increase will just make the wizard damage scale with its level and gears giving a fair damage boost @ all gears\level range...

i would be more up for the 180%+ base damage for the mid tier skills, but solid 300% on our ultis, else our class wouldnt make sesne

also its not just because of the high channelling times that we cant dps,

its the fact that at the highest channelling times we got the highest cast times too, and besides FF we dont have any "multiple hits skill", so we just cant DPS someone down if they wont cut cast times...
and yes then there is cooldown matter,

seeing Elimination with 15 secs cooldown 320% base damage, or life hunter 200% base damage for no channelling no cooldown no chi costs,

when the only thing we have that gets close in damage to an elimination is a 3spark blade tempest that is circa 10 seconds to land it for 500 chi cost depleting apo cd + ulti cd = 120 +30 secs... its really non sense

also one question... we have this skill Manifest Virtue, it should improve our base magic attack by 1% of wizard mana value, tho it doesnt do that and i am not understanding the maths behind this skill...
if it adds 1% of weapon damage, then the skill was bugged since years,

if not wtf does this skill do?

i guess after 23k mana its give 230% weapon damage, well acctually idk if reach that but sure maybe nearly double then ep mattack buff, only problem duration long or with same duration could stack with wellspring/3rd spark/mattack potion

btw i think could better remove udine strike and boost mastery to 50% from 20 and 55% if sage instead uine strikew, or if rework udine strike then make it or normal debuff or flat damage increase skill like ice prison (with 40% vs caster, 30% vs heavy/light armor, for that was made the skill) and with 30m range

junesoo

Generally low to mid geared people are more likely to have longer channeling duration & generate less chi, so in short they will have lesser opportunities to use these skills effectively with channel aid, so it won't make too much of an impact to ruin PVP even if you're talking about similar gears.

And also with all 3 eruptions or any skill or buff that increases your base attack, the lower the stats you have, the higher the percentage they will take up in your base attack. For example sage/demon eruption (both gives 7 attack multiplier), a wizard with 10-11 attack multiplier (900-1000 magic) will only get up to 170-163.6% of normal base attack while a wizard with 7-8 attack multiplier (600-700 magic) will get 200-187.5% of normal base attack.

About life hunter, I'm pretty sure it's base+200% weapon plus some damage. Anyway if the developers are working on balancing, they are probably doing it one race at a time and humans would be last for sure.

For Manifest Virtue what that 1% mean is, if you have 25,000 mana the buff will give you a fixed value of (25,000/100=250)% of your weapon attack. Level 1 Spark Burst only gives a fixed 200% or two attack multiplier so Manifest Virtue is actually decent but 5 minutes cooldown is a joke.

XXHotXx - Morai

junesoo wrote: »

Generally low to mid geared people are more likely to have longer channeling duration & generate less chi, so in short they will have lesser opportunities to use these skills effectively with channel aid, so it won't make too much of an impact to ruin PVP even if you're talking about similar gears.

And also with all 3 eruptions or any skill or buff that increases your base attack, the lower the stats you have, the higher the percentage they will take up in your base attack. For example sage/demon eruption (both gives 7 attack multiplier), a wizard with 10-11 attack multiplier (900-1000 magic) will only get up to 170-163.6% of normal base attack while a wizard with 7-8 attack multiplier (600-700 magic) will get 200-187.5% of normal base attack.

About life hunter, I'm pretty sure it's base+200% weapon plus some damage. Anyway if the developers are working on balancing, they are probably doing it one race at a time and humans would be last for sure.

For Manifest Virtue what that 1% mean is, if you have 25,000 mana the buff will give you a fixed value of (25,000/100=250)% of your weapon attack. Level 1 Spark Burst only gives a fixed 200% or two attack multiplier so Manifest Virtue is actually decent but 5 minutes cooldown is a joke.

i didnt understand your line on the celestial\demon eruption multiplier, it multiplies the weapon damage that is added to the base magic attack, then the skill itself will deal that improved magic damage + weapon damage + fixed skill damage
it doesnt multiply the base magic attack

ofc who has less damage added by attributes\cards\shards etch will have a better return, simply because the gap between multiplied weapon damage and base mag attack is not that high, eventho big portion of the base mag attack is given by the weapon damage value...
point is while eruptions are supposed to add weapon damage, Manifest Virtue is supposed to increase % of magic attack

but it seems it doesnt work like that, then the skill is bugged, it is supposed to improve % magic attack, not add weapon damage

shall we open something in the quality corner?

life hunter hits twice for 100% base damage, so its 200% base damage in 1.4 seconds

junesoo

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

i didnt understand your line on the celestial\demon eruption multiplier, it multiplies the weapon damage that is added to the base magic attack, then the skill itself will deal that improved magic damage + weapon damage + fixed skill damage
it doesnt multiply the base magic attack

ofc who has less damage added by attributes\cards\shards etch will have a better return, simply because the gap between multiplied weapon damage and base mag attack is not that high, eventho big portion of the base mag attack is given by the weapon damage value...
point is while eruptions are supposed to add weapon damage, Manifest Virtue is supposed to increase % of magic attack

but it seems it doesnt work like that, then the skill is bugged, it is supposed to improve % magic attack, not add weapon damage

shall we open something in the quality corner?

life hunter hits twice for 100% base damage, so its 200% base damage in 1.4 seconds

b:laugh gosh your math XD.

I just told you manifest virtue will give you 250% of your weapon attack if you have 25k MP. It works exactly how it says it does just like cleric's Spirit Gift for example gives you 70% of your weapon attack.

First you need to understand one thing.

Base Damage = Attack Multiplier X Weapon Attack

Most people call it weapon attack but to be accurate just call it attack stats. You need to include all gears, shards, cards, neuma, title & everything with gives attack basically.

Magic attack multiplier is basically the number to multiple your attack stats with. This will depend on attributes and buffs.

For magic, attack multiplier = 1 + (Mag/100) + magical attack buffs

Manifest Virtue with 25k MP =(25000/100)= 250% x Attack Stats= 2.5 attack multiplier

Spirit's Gift = 70% x Attack Stats= 0.7 attack multiplier

That's why i mentioned a wizard with 1000 magic stat will have a base magic attack multiplier of 11. It will be 18.7 with sage/demon eruption and spirit's gift.

Yea the description for life hunter is wrong just like frozen flame.

XXHotXx - Morai

junesoo wrote: »

b:laugh gosh your math XD.

I just told you manifest virtue will give you 250% of your weapon attack if you have 25k MP. It works exactly how it says it does just like cleric's Spirit Gift for example gives you 70% of your weapon attack.

First you need to understand one thing.

Base Damage = Attack Multiplier X Weapon Attack

Most people call it weapon attack but to be accurate just call it attack stats. You need to include all gears, shards, cards, neuma, title & everything with gives attack basically.

Magic attack multiplier is basically the number to multiple your attack stats with. This will depend on attributes and buffs.

For magic, attack multiplier = 1 + (Mag/100) + magical attack buffs

Manifest Virtue with 25k MP =(25000/100)= 250% x Attack Stats= 2.5 attack multiplier

Spirit's Gift = 70% x Attack Stats= 0.7 attack multiplier

That's why i mentioned a wizard with 1000 magic stat will have a base magic attack multiplier of 11. It will be 18.7 with sage/demon eruption and spirit's gift.

Yea the description for life hunter is wrong just like frozen flame.

This is the description for Manifest Virtue, that has been there unchanged for years:

Bind Mana and Chi directly into your weapon, increasing your
Magic Attack by one percent of your maximum Mana for 30 seconds.

It doesnt mention weapon attack, if i open my C menu, at the voice Magic Attack i see my Base Magic Damage....

The description i think could be interpreted in 2 ways:

Increase Magic Attack Value x MP\100 %

or

Add MP\100 Magic Attack to your base Magic damage (circa 200 magic attack)

but if you use that skill in game you will see that it doesnt work in either of this 2 ways:

cause in first case mag attack should be doubled, and it doesnt get doubled

in second case mag attack should have a tiny tiny increase (at endgame around 1500-2000 more base Magic Damage value, negligible), that is way and way less than actually how much base damage the skill adds

so i believe at this point, either the description is wrong cause it adds MP\100 % weapon damage as you say,

or if in original pwch version of this skill, the skill is supposed to work as description says,

this skill had been bugged \ bad encoded for years

junesoo

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

This is the description for Manifest Virtue, that has been there unchanged for years:

Bind Mana and Chi directly into your weapon, increasing your
Magic Attack by one percent of your maximum Mana for 30 seconds.

It doesnt mention weapon attack, if i open my C menu, at the voice Magic Attack i see my Base Magic Damage....

The description i think could be interpreted in 2 ways:

Increase Magic Attack Value x MP\100 %

or

Add MP\100 Magic Attack to your base Magic damage (circa 200 magic attack)

but if you use that skill in game you will see that it doesnt work in either of this 2 ways:

cause in first case mag attack should be doubled, and it doesnt get doubled

in second case mag attack should have a tiny tiny increase (at endgame around 1500-2000 more base Magic Damage value, negligible), that is way and way less than actually how much base damage the skill adds

so i believe at this point, either the description is wrong cause it adds MP\100 % weapon damage as you say,

or if in original pwch version of this skill, the skill is supposed to work as description says,

this skill had been bugged \ bad encoded for years

Most of the skill description in this game can't be taken literally, a lot are inaccurately described mostly due to the usage of wrong or less accurate words.

Like for instance, Strength of the Titans, the description 'Increases Physical damage by 30% of Weapon Attack for 30 minutes.' It's fairly inaccurate because we know it doesn't just take into account 'Weapon Attack' stat.

As for Manifest Virtue description stating 'Magic Attack' it is actually a more accurate term except for the part 'one percent of your maximum Mana' which is still a fairly acceptable description, can be confusing.

However if you use some common sense and realize it is a 1 spark cost skill, it is not suppose to (Mana/100) X 100% of Magic Attack = 25000% of your 'Magic Attack' because that will be ridiculously overpowered. It will give you 3 & 4/7 times of sage/demon eruption.

XXHotXx - Morai

junesoo wrote: »

Most of the skill description in this game can't be taken literally, a lot are inaccurately described mostly due to the usage of wrong or less accurate words.

Like for instance, Strength of the Titans, the description 'Increases Physical damage by 30% of Weapon Attack for 30 minutes.' It's fairly inaccurate because we know it doesn't just take into account 'Weapon Attack' stat.

As for Manifest Virtue description stating 'Magic Attack' it is actually a more accurate term except for the part 'one percent of your maximum Mana' which is still a fairly acceptable description, can be confusing.

However if you use some common sense and realize it is a 1 spark cost skill, it is not suppose to (Mana/100) X 100% of Magic Attack = 25000% of your 'Magic Attack' because that will be ridiculously overpowered. It will give you 3 & 4/7 times of sage/demon eruption.

nope not 25000% but 250%

lol 25000\100 in % = 250%

that would be quite nice and useful seen almost other classes got multiplied base damage skills

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

junesoo wrote: »

Most of the skill description in this game can't be taken literally, a lot are inaccurately described mostly due to the usage of wrong or less accurate words.

Like for instance, Strength of the Titans, the description 'Increases Physical damage by 30% of Weapon Attack for 30 minutes.' It's fairly inaccurate because we know it doesn't just take into account 'Weapon Attack' stat.

As for Manifest Virtue description stating 'Magic Attack' it is actually a more accurate term except for the part 'one percent of your maximum Mana' which is still a fairly acceptable description, can be confusing.

However if you use some common sense and realize it is a 1 spark cost skill, it is not suppose to (Mana/100) X 100% of Magic Attack = 25000% of your 'Magic Attack' because that will be ridiculously overpowered. It will give you 3 & 4/7 times of sage/demon eruption.

let me quote from wiki

Weapon Attack

Weapon attack in general is how much your weapon contributes to your damage. This is basically the sum of all the physical \ magical attack attribute on player's gear and level.

weapon attack = attack from weapon + attack from shards in weapon + attack from rings and other equipment + character level

Don't forget about the +attack or +max attack adds on the weapon.

Weapon attack can also be gained from attack charms. Ammo contributes to the weapon attack for ranged weapons. Other than character level all other factors of weapon attack are found from equipment. Weapon attack can be increased by refining or sharding damage shard (garnet or sapphire) to weapons.

its work how it supposed in one point but duration or not stacking with other mattack buff its make it close to useless

my unbuffed mattack: 33060-38012 - 14610 mana
my unbuffed mattack with lv100 skill: 38382-44131 - 14610 mana
my cleric buffed mattack with lv100 skill: 40897-47023 - 14610 mana
my cleric buffed mattack with lv100 skill:: 44068-50669 - 23376 mana


2892 mattack from cleric buff
2892/7*10*1.4610=6036.0171428571428571428571428571

38012+6036=44048 close to 44131

XXHotXx - Morai

yea maybe i believe this skill to be useful should have his proper icon and stack with other mag atk bonus skills, not overwrite them