Change agro skills effect for Barbs

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

would be nice if dev team consider change the agro skill working, for make more effective tank the barb like, a bit sick the agro ping pang now or not even ping pang

Reason:
- We know the agro related with damage

2008 vs 2014
- Aps: 3.33 (if demon sparked bm with fist)=>5 aps in pve even with dagger, 14% bonus skill damage for caster
- 0 attack level => 120-200 attack level to several class now
- new end game weapons got zerk for melee, unlike tt99/100 or r8 what was when pwi out
- critical strike chance became double for physical class and triple for magic class with new gears/stats/engrave/cards etc
- base damage became minimum double now with card+r9 3rd compared with r8+12/tt100+12

Meanwhile agro skills on barb untouched

Well this just ideea, anything what improve the agro could be nice

i mean add this agro effect so not rework the skill

Flesh Ream:
2 sec the target (non player) forced to attack the barb (cooldown 3.5sec)

Roar
every mob and boss in skill range forced attack you 5-7 sec

Untamed Wrath
pve stuff forced to attack you 5 sec after stun expired on them

Alacrity of the Beast
2 sec the target (non player) must attack you

Devour
agro the target for 3-4 second

heerohex#3018

Hum... I try to stay away from skill suggestions as I don't want to suggest possible unbalance in the game. Unless we have some strong arguments or a lot of people saying this would rather be a strong suggestion im not going to LOG.

So for now im not going to log, I will keep my eye on this for the time being.

Thanks,

Euthymius - Heavens Tear

I'm going to have to disagree with this.

While I can understand that Barb aggro isn't all that it used to be when it comes to the debuffs/damage potential of the modern era, I wouldn't want to strengthen it THAT much for one reason: It'll allow frail DDs to be far more reckless without any repercussions.

A DD's job isn't only to deal damage as best as they can, but to also be wary of drawing their target's full attention and getting killed. With the threat of potential death from stealing aggro looming over their heads, DDs ought to learn to pace their damage output to still be as effective as possible while not drawing too much attention. That in itself requires a certain degree of awareness/skilll that your suggestion would throw out of the window otherwise, whereas DDs can do whatever the buck they want and a Barb can still hold aggro by mindlessly mashing keys.

Oh, and you forgot to mention Stomp of the King, which is a pretty good aggro skill in itself.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

s I don't want to suggest possible unbalance in the game

PvE already unbalanced since interval gear and assassin is out, my friend without 3rd spark can keep the agro and i with sage flesh ream after 5 skill maybe once can get agro .... for 1 sec maybe...

A question, barb is tank class, no?

then why most common build in (pve too!!!) the full str or aps barb build?
because no point in pve in tank build for a tank lol, dont have nothing (exclude 1 boss) what a +12 sin can't tank and barb can, so most common role with barb is damage dealer and sin who must squishy DD became now best tank ever without any agro skill....

i stole also with only chill of deep with my sin the agro from barb friend.

fact when pwi opened was needed control the aps build peoples there dmg, but now they keep agro way better than before with 3rd spark coz alot was boosted the dmg

Euthymius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm going to have to disagree with this.

While I can understand that Barb aggro isn't all that it used to be when it comes to the debuffs/damage potential of the modern era, I wouldn't want to strengthen it THAT much for one reason: It'll allow frail DDs to be far more reckless without any repercussions.

A DD's job isn't only to deal damage as best as they can, but to also be wary of drawing their target's full attention and getting killed. With the threat of potential death from stealing aggro looming over their heads, DDs ought to learn to pace their damage output to still be as effective as possible while not drawing too much attention. That in itself requires a certain degree of awareness/skilll that your suggestion would throw out of the window otherwise, whereas DDs can do whatever the buck they want and a Barb can still hold aggro by mindlessly mashing keys.

Oh, and you forgot to mention Stomp of the King, which is a pretty good aggro skill in itself.

well not the best ideea but really need something boost like i wrote above why, kinda nearly uneffective if i spam the sage flesh ream vs only autoattack afk 3rd+12 sin....

btw 1st post edited!

well Stomp of the King isn't really best atleast i tryed primal version i don't see huge agro (i mean never was able stole mob with spaming it) but anyway barbarian tank in tiger/panda form not in human, in tiger more hp/pdef (120% if sage) more agro skill (what not really effective)

trands

There is absolutely no need to improve aggro unless they make bosses considerably harder. That would create a huge problem considering the gear gap. If the biggest DD can't tank, it should just behave. Your solution would just be a free ticket for those 5k hp R9.3+12 aps sins.

Imo, things are already considerably better with the newer bosses that forced away the spark macro.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

well Stomp of the King isn't really best atleast i tryed primal version i don't see huge agro (i mean never was able stole mob with spaming it) but anyway barbarian tank in tiger/panda form not in human, in tiger more hp/pdef (120% if sage) more agro skill (what not really effective)

Busted! This explains a lot. You're either not a barb player or an incomplete barb.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

trands wrote: »

Busted! This explains a lot. You're either not a barb player or an incomplete barb.

because a barb use their original tanking form = not barb/incomplete barb? where is the point?
best example when in fb69 the boss make on me from 37k pdef => 0 pdef with debuff if stay in human, but in toger form get 11k+ pdef what is 73% reduction.... since def buff and hp buff in tiger not purge/debuffable so have fun tanking in human form...


well best solution was the anti aps (reduce melee dmg) buff on boss's but make it to every boss i think alot work

trands

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

because a barb use their original tanking form = not barb/incomplete barb? where is the point?

You don't even know which barb skill Euthymius mentioned and mix it up with another. Yet you continue to argue with all kinds of hollow arguments without even realizing it for 2 times. So yeah, either not a barb player, or an incomplete barb. Which explains the suggestions which I wish to never see in game.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

trands wrote: »

You don't even know which barb skill Euthymius mentioned and mix it up with another. Yet you continue to argue with all kinds of hollow arguments without even realizing it for 2 times. So yeah, either not a barb player, or an incomplete barb. Which explains the suggestions which I wish to never see in game.

well i readed Stomp of the Beast King instead of Stomp of the King (what i don't got yet ), so i spam what i have flesh ream, devour, roar etc

i udnerstand what u say, but also fact if a +12 sin steal the agro then he don't need to aware by dieing coz he can't die, atleast guild mate with +12 demon sin lure in lunar, tank card boss, tt3-3, sot etc without problem, kinda never got barb in squad except advanced flow...

not look like barb not tank anymore and only role for him is dd in pve?

Euthymius - Heavens Tear

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

PvE already unbalanced since interval gear and assassin is out, my friend without 3rd spark can keep the agro and i with sage flesh ream after 5 skill maybe once can get agro .... for 1 sec maybe...

If they can survive the boss and deal max damage, then let them tank. If anything, you can support them with your debuffs (Devour/Frighten), cancel special skills/AoEs (Alacrity), or even potentially purge (Clean Sweep) or instantly get the bosses attention should something go awry and save your party....or just contribute to DDing.

A question, barb is tank class, no?

They have the aggro skills and the durability to be the main "tank" but that doesn't mean they can be nothing else but that.

then why most common build in (pve too!!!) the full str or aps barb build?

Full Strength is more PvP oriented, but there's nothing wrong with building for more damage anyway. APS build lets barbs do something they previously couldn't: Solo farmable instances and deal good damage on bosses.

because no point in pve in tank build for a tank lol, dont have nothing (exclude 1 boss) what a +12 sin can't tank and barb can, so most common role with barb is damage dealer and sin who must squishy DD became now best tank ever without any agro skill....

"Tank build" is a poor way of saying Vit build, which is still likely the best for a catapuller. With how gear and refine opportunities have progressed while PvE trails further behind, its no surprise that "anyone" can tank. That's also why statting Vit isn't as important as it used to be for PvE too. Again, that doesn't mean that there's nothing barbs can do, considering they've still got great support skills, are among the best of pullers, and can take aggro should whoever tanks fall.

i stole also with only chill of deep with my sin the agro from barb friend.

fact when pwi opened was needed control the aps build peoples there dmg, but now they keep agro way better than before with 3rd spark coz alot was boosted the dmg

Here's a fact: Wizards and Archers used to be able to rip aggro "back in the day" with similar ease well before APS was a thing. Its just a lot easier for the other classes because of how easy APS is to acquire (and again, with all the buffs/debffs available)


well not the best ideea but really need something boost like i wrote above why, kinda nearly uneffective if i spam the sage flesh ream vs only autoattack afk 3rd+12 sin....

If he can handle the damage while dealing maximum damage what is the problem? Would you rather a boss take longer to fell just so you could say "I R Tank" or be made to being just as mindless with permanent Barb aggro for the same "mindless" behavior of your example? What would it accomplish? All it'll do is let said OP players go at it unscathed and wont do a Barb any favors in getting squads in situations where one still wouldn't be needed.

Why not open your playstyle to a more supportive/offensive one instead of fighting a battle you cant win (one of aggro)?


well Stomp of the King isn't really best atleast i tryed primal version i don't see huge agro (i mean never was able stole mob with spaming it) but anyway barbarian tank in tiger/panda form not in human, in tiger more hp/pdef (120% if sage) more agro skill (what not really effective)

....Are you daft? Stomp of the King (The AEU skill), not Stomp of the BEAST King

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

well best solution was the anti aps (reduce melee dmg) buff on boss's but make it to every boss i think alot work

Actually, that just means that aggro can (and will) go to high end arcanes and archers, who are unaffected by the Fortification buff. I can easily hold aggro from a Barb with just Seeker Shatters/Undine. Add HF and the others and the gap only widens, yet *gasp* I can Tank all the same!

>These posts

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

Barbs can hold agro fairly well in most cases.

Unless they're ****ty barbarians then, there is no hope for them.

Also, if you try to make a comparison with a barb weapon +4 trying to hold agro against a +12 assassin you're probably doing everything wrong.

Also, refer to new bosses with their anti-aps ridiculous buff, makes barbs agro much smoother to keep.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Euthymius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Why not open your playstyle to a more supportive/offensive one instead of fighting a battle you cant win (one of aggro)?

yea, i guess you have right, still annoying barb became dd/support, so a sin tool with devour...

since in most of instance new end game geared sin can do everything, only few boss have anti aps buff, i feel a bit useless now, mainly to players who played games before where tank was important part of the game and not support or dd in pve (since even advanaced flow work without barb aswell same with every other place the lureing)

Here's a fact: Wizards and Archers used to be able to rip aggro "back in the day" with similar ease well before APS was a thing. Its just a lot easier for the other classes because of how easy APS is to acquire (and again, with all the buffs/debffs available)

i disagree with that, was easier take back agro from high dmg criter wizard or archer than now for end game geared aps, even they stoled they was unable hold it for long time, even i used same skill
when i started pw in 2007 was archer then wizz, my wife was barb (don't like beign dead easily ), with spark burst and nice crits in row i stoled the agro (well was new player and learned to dont steal that much coz i die) still barb was able to take back in few second and without barb, before aps even a 2-3 was really hard so needed tank, well for even any 2-x...

WannaBM - Archosaur

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

yea, i guess you have right, still annoying barb became dd/support, so a sin tool with devour...

Dont look at yourself that way.

You are a magnificent beast who runs at twice the speed of every other toon. You can pull more mobs and take the beating than any other class and you have sunder arma to kill them all in 2 gloreous 12m aoe's with a little hf help. You are also a pretty decent single target DD even if you are not using the option to APS. If you do use that option, you can almost equal an equally geared sins dmg output and have like 5 times the tankability.
Oh and as a bonus, you have agro skills and invoke that you can always use on crucial moments to save your squad.

Be a proud barb b:pleased

SilverMayhem - Archosaur

What about a suggestion of a different time of Aggro Mechanic all around. One that Stacks and can be passed depending on Damage Output.

Would call for a new Icon but lets just give an example:
(This bosses name is just used for name sake, that's all)

Squad doesn't matter, gear output in the squad is randomize too.

Boss name: Mystery of Antiquity

Example 1:
Barb with +5 weapon (Say G16, most common) uses Flesh Ream to aggro the boss and gets first hit. With the bleed Icon a new Icon comes up with a small 1 next to it (We will just say its blue for example purposes). The 1 means that the barb just has attacked the bosses. Nothing really more. It can hold aggro from TT weapons mainly (Like flesh ream should if used with G16 >.>). Barb uses it again. Now its a small 2 next to the blue icon. 2 has a more defined hold on the boss but could still be lost to a Nice Zerk Crit or well places Hit on a Debuffed boss. Flesh Ream again, 3. This is where the stack starts taking into affect, causing the boss to focus only on the harder hitting DPH set by the Barb. (So if the barb hits 10k then anything under 10k wont pull aggro from the barb). Flesh Ream again, 4. Now the Higher end margin of DPH has been reduced (E.I. anything above a certain number, lets say 20k, wont have a chance to pull aggro). Flesh ream, last stack, 5. Now the Stack is in full effect.

A 5 stack would insure aggro stability for the barb, only allowing another Aggro skill from another class with a higher Damage output than what the barb is dealing "steal" aggro. If more than 1 barb is in the squad then the stack builds faster (If both are using Flesh Ream). This will also allow Devour/Penetrate Armor's Threat to be more effective and allow for tanking in and out of Kitty form. As long as a Threat/Aggro skill was used the barb would hold aggro, not allowing the Stacks to Fad from 5 to 0.

This type of aggro mechanic is a Stacking ability that gets inc by threat that runs off of DPH. The Stack would have no Effect in PvP would not increase Flesh Ream or any other skills DPH.

Just a suggestion to the complaints about Ping Ponging bosses. TBH, the real issue is Pure Builds that have no Vit and +3-5 refines with little to no shards and that get 1 shot by the AoE of the bosses. They sometimes pull aggro and start getting smacked for about 2-3 hits for 2-4k and die. By the time the barb can pull aggro (Depending on if the barb was stunned, Frozen, stuck due to ping ponging, or just simply Flesh Ream/Devour was on CD (Which mine are always on)) they are dead and start their QQ fest of no heals, too much DPH, not enough Aggro hold from tank or something of that nature.

Its a wonder they got this far tbh. .-. I can and have ran most of the instances on this game without clerics and without BP and it only takes a simple knowledge of when to hit a skill and knowing how much your toon (that you built) can take. (Yes i run FSP without a cleric, spark the dot off). But alas, the beauty of MMO is the different type of people you meet.

In short: Your 3-5 vit will not save you. If you dont have +6 on G16 (really really really not that hard to do) please take some points out of Magic/Dex and through them into vit. I promise you wont notice the 50-60 points missing. b:surrender

WannaBM - Archosaur

Even though i made similar posts like OP when i had just gotten lvl 100, was poorly equiped and sage. I now really think agro mechanics are fine.

I look at them in a different way now. As i explained 2 posts up, i also look at barbs differently now.

They are not always "i have agro you cant get hit" skills. Instead, a weak dd will never steal agro, a medium-strong DD will draw partial agro. Partial agro is still good. You cast ream ever 3s. He APSes and each time after 1.5 or 2s, his dmg overcomes your ream. Because of this he has agro for a certain percentage of total time and will likely get hit now and then. Only the OP DD will probably steal agro so fast from ream that it is virtually useless.

So the strong DD has to tank, the medium DD has to be prepared to take 1 hit, After takig 1 hit, he can stop DDing if needed knowing that the next ream will soon enough take agro from him again.

Of course all is gear based. It is stupid to ever expect a G16+6, B card barb to hold agro from an R9+12 S card DD. compare your barb to equally equiped DDs. If your allied DDs are say roughly equally equiped like you, you can probably hold agro standing up. (being demon at least) If they are stronger DDs you might need to go tiger.

Also note the difference between the old content and the new. In the new content, APS DDs are pretty much erased and it is rather easy to hold agro against quite better equiped DDs. In the old content of course it is different. APS is king. Join them if you cant beat them is my motto there.

Maybe from a barbs perspective who feels tanking is the only meaning of life, his agro should absolute and his allies should be too weak to ever tank themselves. It would make the game kind of simple and boring though.

SilverMayhem - Archosaur

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Even though i made similar posts like OP when i had just gotten lvl 100, was poorly equiped and sage. I now really think agro mechanics are fine.

I look at them in a different way now. As i explained 2 posts up, i also look at barbs differently now.

They are not always "i have agro you cant get hit" skills. Instead, a weak dd will never steal agro, a medium-strong DD will draw partial agro. Partial agro is still good. You cast ream ever 3s. He APSes and each time after 1.5 or 2s, his dmg overcomes your ream. Because of this he has agro for a certain percentage of total time and will likely get hit now and then. Only the OP DD will probably steal agro so fast from ream that it is virtually useless.

So the strong DD has to tank, the medium DD has to be prepared to take 1 hit, After takig 1 hit, he can stop DDing if needed knowing that the next ream will soon enough take agro from him again.

Of course all is gear based. It is stupid to ever expect a G16+6, B card barb to hold agro from an R9+12 S card DD. compare your barb to equally equiped DDs. If your allied DDs are say roughly equally equiped like you, you can probably hold agro standing up. (being demon at least) If they are stronger DDs you might need to go tiger.

Also note the difference between the old content and the new. In the new content, APS DDs are pretty much erased and it is rather easy to hold agro against quite better equiped DDs. In the old content of course it is different. APS is king. Join them if you cant beat them is my motto there.

Maybe from a barbs perspective who feels tanking is the only meaning of life, his agro should absolute and his allies should be too weak to ever tank themselves. It would make the game kind of simple and boring though.

I agree with this post

And would like to add, I dont think barbs are the one having a problem with the aggro being pulled from them so much, as its the ones that are pulling it that have the problem. More so the ones that are pulling with and dieing from it.